Kicked off of the 56A!

Mr. Presentable

pokerface_me wrote: »

But... the bus driver had no right, and absolutely no right to refuse the rest of the fare be paid. Provided of course, that the OP did not know that the fare was an extra 20 cent, and didn't intentionally try to dodge the full fare, evident from this line:

.

I'd imagine the driver has no facility to top up a short ticket. And certainly no way to receipt 20c. So, in order to pay for the additional part of the journey, the passenger must pay a new trip from where his old one finished.

MojoMaker

Wha you're not hearing on this thread is what the OP did as he boarded the bus that made the driver onfident in acting like a jobsworth later on in the journey. Please tell us OP, how did he even remember/know you?

meanmachine3

Hamndegger wrote: »

The driver does have the right to remove him from the bus, refer to the Db bye laws above.

Meanmachine, Sickcert, Spareman or other DB drivers can clarify if a driver has the means to issue standard fares on board but I don't think that OP would have been too honest in forthcoming of his details for it if he wasn't forthcoming with his own 20 cent or forthcoming in alighting the bus as he was asked to.

there are mainly two types of tickets that we issue theres the normal one when you pay you fare when boarding then theres an excess fare which is a ticket that makes up the full fare .in the O.P.'s case he would've been issued with a 20 cents excess ticket if everything had been rosy or the driver could've charged the O.P. €1.05 the full fare from where his ticket expired at . or do what he did to the O.P.


the next segment is from the dublin bus web site.
Random spot checks are carried out without warning on all Dublin Bus services.

Dublin Bus officials inspect all customer tickets to check that they are valid.

If you do not have a valid ticket, you will be issued with a Standard Fare which means you must pay a penalty of €50 within 21 days.


What is a Standard Fare ?
A penalty of €50 is issued by a Dublin Bus official if you do not have a valid ticket for a Standard Fare.

A ticket is not valid for the following reasons:

You have not paid the correct cash fare
Your cash or prepaid ticket is not in-date
You do not have the required Photo Identity Card with a travel pass from the Department of Social and Family Affairs
You do not have a CIE Photo Identity Card with your Adult, Scholar or Child prepaid ticket
You do not have a valid, in-date Student Travelcard I.D. with your Student Travelwide prepaid ticket.

radioactiveman

pokerface_me wrote: »

Just made my day man funniest thing i've seen in a while, what about all the change thats not collected in o connell street. I'm sure things balance themselves out.

Not only that, but all the times you pay your fare and the driver doesn't even bother to print a change ticket for 5 or 10c. Fair enough but don't go stopping the bus for 1 person that hasn't paid 20c ffs. No defence really.

AlekSmart

Unregistered`s problem in all of this can be very firmly laid at thew door of Bus Atha Cliath management and stems from a decision to abandon one of the fundemental principles of its basic operation.

The Fare Stage.

On the surface of it the company purports to operate a Fare Stage system.
This is an essentially simple system whereby certain stops are designated "Stages" and the fare is calculated from the number of them travelled during any one journey.

As with any such system it throws up anomalies such as the fact that a passenger boarding between Stage Points is required to pay the fare from the PRECEEDING Stage.
A passenger alighting between Stage Points is required to pay to the SUBSEQUENT Stage.
The City Centre (An Lar) is always Stage 25 or 75 depending on the direction of travel,with only a couple of specific differences.

However,for a Fare Stage system to work efficiently and dare I say it....fairly,it MUST be apparent to both Customers and Staff alike.

This is NOT the case in Dublin.

Up until c.2004 Bus Atha Cliath Stage Points were generally very well marked.
Each one carried a visible "Stage xx" marking on the headplate.

This apparently simple element ensured that Passengers and Staff alike were fully aware of the location and designation of the Bus Stop.
It also ensured that Busdrivers unfamiliar with a specific route were provided with the information necessary to calculate the appropriate fare for any specific journey.

However at some point c.2004 it appears the company decided to cease the practice of identifying the Fare Stage points.
Within a very short time,coincidental with a large scale Bus Stop repainting programme virtually ALL Stage Point markings had disappeared.

What we now have is a company operating a Fare Stage system which requires a degree of knowledge to operate having deliberately removed the information required by the intending customer in order to comply with its requirements.

Why the Stage Point markings were removed I do not know,but it coincided with a period where large numbers of new drivers were recruited and trained to operate a Fare Stage system which had suddenly been transformed into a "Secret" one.

There are now a substantial number of Busdrivers who have only a vague idea of where a specific Fare Stage is actually located.

For example,Drumcondra Rail Station (Inbound) on the 3,11,16,33,41 routes is defined in the current timetable as Stage 22.
Its a very important Fare Stage because it marks the boundary between the €1.05 3 Stage Fare and the €1.50 4-7 Stage Fare.
However there are two possible locations for Stage 22,one at Clonliffe Road and the second at Fitzroy Avenue...which one is it ?
I know it to be the Fitzroy Avenue stop because I was privy to a telephone call which followed its unadvised movement from Clonliffe Road where it had been for decades.
However having moved the location the company then failed to reinstate the necessary markings and so to the vast majority of customers it has remained at Clonliffe Road junction which means they continue to pay the lesser fare and believe me those 45c differences mount up rapidly.

The company appear to be unconcerned at the revenue leakage potential from this ignorance which could be rectified immediately with some Letraset figures and a stepladder.

The real issue concerning Dublin`s Public Transport Fare structures is why our relatively small City steadfastly clings to so many.
Bus Atha Cliath.
Bus Eireann.
Dart.
Suburban Rail.
Luas.(2)
Dualway
Morton.
Urbus
Swords Express.

What a collection of different fares for essentially the same distance travelled within the Pale.

The reason comes right back to our old bete noir The Department of Transport,whose principals should long ago have devised and implimented a Flat Fare or simplified Zonal fare structure for ALL licenced operators in the Capital.

Indeed,at the time of the Euro changeover Bus Atha Cliath did actually introduce a revised and simplifed fare Structure of its own but was slapped down very quickly after a slew of Politicians interefered and insisted upon the Company delivering two Free Fare weekends to compensate for its cheek.

In short,if Unregistered had been able to tender a Flat Fare or been able to recognize the Fare Stage in question then the entire issue would not have occurred.

If it aint broke don`t fix it is a sensible approach,instead Bus Atha Cliath took something which was`nt broke and fixed it until it DID break.

Keep it simple. :eek:

jack90210

Victor wrote: »

The driver was perfectly right, and entitled to do what he did. Fare evasion is the slippery slope to other anti-social behaviour.

How are you a mod on this forum? That is trolling. He didnt fare evade he made a simple mistake on the fare structure and offered to pay the difference. You are been very unreasonable and downright idiotic.


Having read the whole thread now: you didnt respond to this thread again when you obviously sensed opinion wasn't on your side. I reckon your competence at monitoring this forum is in question and I personally call for your resignation following this unreasonable response to this post. You obviously hoped everyone would give you "thanks" and noone did because of your attitude. You may as well resign your credibility is ruined on the Commuting and Transport Forum.

antoinolachtnai

He didn't evade a fare. You are only evading a fare on Dublin Bus if you fail to pay the standard fare within 21 days.

Ardent

I can't believe this story! I haven't read the whole thread - judging by the first page alone this thread has attracted a number of trolls - but the OP in my opinion was very hard done by. I actually got angry reading what happened. You should have let him call out the guards just so you could get his name, if I was one of the other passengers I would have supported you!

What really makes my blood boil though is, of many times I've got on a 56A/77/77A in the past, not once has a skanger been approached for smoking on the bus. Cowards like this guy just want easy targets.

As for complaining to Dublin Bus, forget about it - it's a joke setup and you'll get nowhere.

Metrobest

The real culprit here is Dublin Bus for having a ridiculous fare structure that nobody understands. The driver can argue that he was 'following the rules' (albeit in a hitleresque manner) and the OP that he didn't understand the stage system (with some justification).

Victor

jack90210 wrote: »

How are you a mod on this forum? That is trolling. He didnt fare evade he made a simple mistake on the fare structure and offered to pay the difference. You are been very unreasonable and downright idiotic.


Having read the whole thread now: you didnt respond to this thread again when you obviously sensed opinion wasn't on your side. I reckon your competence at monitoring this forum is in question and I personally call for your resignation following this unreasonable response to this post. You obviously hoped everyone would give you "thanks" and noone did because of your attitude. You may as well resign your credibility is ruined on the Commuting and Transport Forum.

Take it here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=82

PS Who are you?

meanmachine3

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

He didn't evade a fare. You are only evading a fare on Dublin Bus if you fail to pay the standard fare within 21 days.

i'm afraid your understanding of this is incorrect. any of the below would be deemed to be fare evasion.

A ticket is not valid for the following reasons:

You have not paid the correct cash fare
Your cash or prepaid ticket is not in-date
You do not have the required Photo Identity Card with a travel pass from the Department of Social and Family Affairs
You do not have a CIE Photo Identity Card with your Adult, Scholar or Child prepaid ticket
You do not have a valid, in-date Student Travelcard I.D. with your Student Travelwide prepaid ticket.


just a quickie to the O.P. by any chance did the driver ask you how far you were going when you paid your €1.50 fare?

a couple of years ago i had a couple of junkies get on my bus in westmoreland street, they paid €1 or whatever it was then , i asked how far they were going and they said northcircular rd. i pulled into this stop announced it. no joy. i went up told them it was their stop and they said they were going to santry. i told them it was their stop and to get of. i went back to my cab screen up and requested the guards. the two of them were all mouth get the guards i'm not afraid etc. as soon as i was told the guards were on their way(the volume was up full on the radio)they bailed of but not before throwing full cups of milkshakes all over the full bus when getting off.
needless to say this was anothert bus that wouldn't operate back.

Stark

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

He didn't evade a fare. You are only evading a fare on Dublin Bus if you fail to pay the standard fare within 21 days.

He was given a chance to get off and walk the remaining few hundred metres rather than being hit with the standard fare. He obviously decided it would be better to mess up everyone else's day than do so.

Metrobest wrote:

The real culprit here is Dublin Bus for having a ridiculous fare structure that nobody understands. The driver can argue that he was 'following the rules' (albeit in a hitleresque manner) and the OP that he didn't understand the stage system (with some justification).

If he was following the rules in a draconian manner, the OP would be €50 out of pocket. If he was following the rules in a Hitleresque manner then the OP would be in prison or dead, cause you know, the Nazis were into mean stuff that was a bit nastier than asking people to get out and walk. Godwin's law, you lose.

meanmachine3 wrote:

there are mainly two types of tickets that we issue theres the normal one when you pay you fare when boarding then theres an excess fare which is a ticket that makes up the full fare .in the O.P.'s case he would've been issued with a 20 cents excess ticket if everything had been rosy or the driver could've charged the O.P. €1.05 the full fare from where his ticket expired at . or do what he did to the O.P.

So how would that work exactly? Everyone gets on the bus and pays a euro. Then every time the driver stops the bus and asks them to get off, you throw him 10c. If you don't get caught then you only pay €1 for the whole journey. Oh please. That's like saying if you're caught on the Luas without a ticket, you should simply be allowed buy one there and then. Noone would buy tickets if that was the case.

The OP knew what he was doing in that he could get away with underpaying 9 times out of 10. I know plenty of students who do this all the time. The difference is that the 1/10 times they get caught, they get off the bus without a fuss instead of acting the areshole to everyone.

BluntGuy

Stark wrote: »

He was given a chance to get off and walk the remaining few hundred metres rather than being hit with the standard fare. He obviously decided it would be better to mess up everyone else's day than do so.

I refused to get out and walk for 10-15 minutes in the rain...

I'm sure if it was only a few hundred metres, i.e an insignificant-enough distance for a presumably able-bodied young man to walk in the rain, then there would not have been such an issue...

BluntGuy

Stark wrote: »

So how would that work exactly? Everyone gets on the bus and pays a euro. Then every time the driver stops the bus and asks them to get off, you throw him 10c. If you don't get caught then you only pay €1 for the whole journey. Oh please. That's like saying if you're caught on the Luas without a ticket, you should simply be allowed buy one there and then. Noone would buy tickets if that was the case.

Yes, I agree, it would be an impractical system with little merit considering the amount of time, effort and manpower that would need to be spent checking tickets, managing funds etc.

One suggestion could just be to have a standard fare for all journeys (say 1.60 or 1.70) like they do in London. That way, there can be no confusion as to what must be paid. Of course, there are obvious cons to this proposal, but at least we'd all know where we stand.

Stark wrote: »

The OP knew what he was doing in that he could get away with underpaying 9 times out of 10.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't expect a mod to be making incredibly specific accusations like that. Maybe the OP was trying to avoid underpaying, maybe he made a mistake... but throwing around statements like this isn't gonna help the whole issue anymore than the silly "Driver is a... *this*" responses.

I'm assuming that the OP is telling the truth and he wasn't trying to fare-dodge. If he was trying to, then he has no right to be seeking any kind of sympathy on this forum. If he wasn't, then the least we can do is not make ungrounded accusations against him...

meanmachine3

Stark wrote: »

So how would that work exactly? Everyone gets on the bus and pays a euro. Then every time the driver stops the bus and asks them to get off, you throw him 10c. If you don't get caught then you only pay €1 for the whole journey. Oh please. That's like saying if you're caught on the Luas without a ticket, you should simply be allowed buy one there and then. Noone would buy tickets if that was the case.

how this works is as follows.
an inspector gets on my bus checks tickets ,finds someone that has only paid €1.50 for a €2 fare he has a number of options open to him. the two that are mainly used are the standard fare which is basically €50 as explained earlier in one of my posts or and excess fare which makes up the rest of the fare of the persons journey. in the latter the inspector will ask the person how far they're going, e.g. they paid €1.50 for a ticket that only gets them to griffith ave. but are actually going to swords (the actual fare being €2). he will ask them for 50c come down to me and ask me to issue a 50c excess ticket which when issued along with the original ticket of €1.50 makes up €2.
now before anyone gets the idea of trying this all the time there is a zero tollerence unit that checks buses and will issue nothing but the standard fare of €50. , the standard fare is being more commonly due to the fact that fare evasion is rife in dublin bus.
i'm sure most of you that travel on buses have had you tickets checked by inspectors

Stark

The problem with the excess fare system is you have to spend twice as much on wages as each bus will need a driver and an inspector. The deterrant system is far better for everyone.

IanCurtis

The OP chanced his arm and was caught. So instead of holding his hands up and saying it's a fair cop, he stands there holding everyone up like a plum.

He was busted - take it and cop on in future.

AND the driver gave him a chance to get off without being humiliated by calling out "Dolphin's Barn". That was the HINT to get off....you don't need to be a Trinity student to understand that!!

corktina

please keep in mind that you are only hearing the OP's version of events here...which is probably more biased towards him than against him.

LiamD

I can completely understand what happened to the OP - am also in Trinity, usually down at the Pearse street end and I frequently walk up Pearse st in the hope I can hop on the 74A. The driver had a bad attitude and should have cut you some slack.

I think it's really rich seeing as some drivers have to be asked to print change tickets and even at that they're extremely inconvenient to collect. The amount of change I haven't collected from DB would probably cover the OP underpaying by 20c for the rest of the year.

Keith186

Hard luck OP, some of them drivers are real arseholders.

Happened me before a while back and I was talking to the driver at the cab and he was rambling all sorts of ****e and wouldn't stop.

I touched his arm when I was talking to him saying not be be such a dickhead n that and then he got on the radio and told the depot that he was after been assaulted and to get the gardai!

Absolute nob-end. Probably the same driver!

AlekSmart

Put simply the Flat Fare is THE way to go.

It should be borne in mind that outside some of the less EU friendly parts of Eastern Europe and perhaps Asia it will prove quite difficult to find a Fare as low as the Bus Atha Cliath base of €1.05.

I am aware that one of the suggestions reportedly put to the Department of Transport in advance of the much delayed introduction of the BAC smart-card ticket range was as follows.

A Flat Fare of €1.90 for ALL journeys deducted from the card in the usual manner,EXCEPT if the passenger required a lesser fare in which case the passenger would present the card at the Ticket Machine reader where the driver would manually enter the lesser amount as at present.

This would have immediately reduced the number of face to face transactions by removing all of the longer distance travellers from the time consuming manual loop.
It would also have facilitated the `po folk who are only goin "down the road" or "two stops" by allowing them to continue their tradition without penalty.

This rather simple suggestion was,as far as I am aware,turned down by the Department on some suitably byzantine grounds.

So rather than grasping the huge opportunity for simplification and speed offered by the contactless card we are forced to utilize it in a manner akin to employing a Man with a red flag to walk in front of the Bus.

It should be realized that this is the SAME Department of Transport that has presided over the expenditure of some €30 MILLION on an integrated ticketing programme which to date has produced no fully functional system.

It is truly frightening that these same SENIOR Civil Servants are coincidentally empowered to impede the full roll out of a system which DOES actually work.

It is also worth noting,as IanCurtis has,that the Busdriver Did in fact use the PA to alert the OP to the fact that the journeys limit was being approached.

Another aspect which should perhaps be borne in mind is encapsulated in the following quote in a subsequent post by PrizeFighter .....

You go to Trinity. The bus driver was just taking out a bad day on someone who he knows is far superior to him mentally and probably in every other way as well. I see it in UCD as well.

Therein hangs a tale I suspect....

BluntGuy

AlekSmart wrote: »

Put simply the Flat Fare is THE way to go.

Thank you...

Somebody who agrees with me on this. Multiple fares only over-complicate the system and make it a mess. Having a standard fare, as in many other European cities, such as London, is a much better way to go.

I'm not sure if this is correct, but do they have a standard adult fare in Cork. Okay it's 3.00 euro or 2.50, not sure which, which is utterly ridiculous, but at least there's no risk of getting confused...

EDIT: *Some stupid spelling mistakes *

Stark

LiamD wrote: »

I can completely understand what happened to the OP - am also in Trinity, usually down at the Pearse street end and I frequently walk up Pearse st in the hope I can hop on the 74A. The driver had a bad attitude and should have cut you some slack.

So I'm guessing a lot of Trinity students try to get away with underpaying then. Why should the drivers have to shut up and put up with it?

Mr. Presentable

Stark wrote: »

So I'm guessing a lot of Trinity students try to get away with underpaying then. Why should the drivers have to shut up and put up with it?

It is the student way! They're in the country's most expensive 3rd level institution, so the rest of the country owes them free everything.

Stark

BluntGuy wrote:

I'm not sure if this is correct, but do they have a standard adult fare in Cork. Okay it's 3.00 euro or 2.50, not sure which, which is utterly ridiculous, but at least there's no risk of getting confused...

As far as I know it's something like €1.45 for buses within the city council area and about €3 for buses in the county council area (which would cover places like Glanmire and Ballincollig).

LiamD

Stark wrote: »

So I'm guessing a lot of Trinity students try to get away with underpaying then. Why should the drivers have to shut up and put up with it?

I didn't mention underpaying, if you read my post properly I actually said I overpaid frequently and recently with a part time job in Sandyford I have switched to a 30 day bus and luas ticket.

My point was that usually I'd have to walk to college green to get the 15, but there is a bus stop on Pearse st much closer to the lincoln place end of Trinity where the 74A stops which is why I prefer to hop on there.

spudington16

It's not fair on those of us that do pay the fares if people who don't get away with it, whether it's someone like you who (apparently) made an honest mistake, or some jerk who's just dodging fares for the sake of it.

However, I think the fact that he made such a show of you in front of the other passangers, as well as delaying them, was out of line. That said, I think he was doing his job, and at the end of the day it's your responsibilty to enquire as to the correct bus fare, then pay it.

cast_iron

spudington16 wrote: »

However, I think the fact that he made such a show of you in front of the other passangers, as well as delaying them, was out of line. That said, I think he was doing his job, and at the end of the day it's your responsibilty to enquire as to the correct bus fare, then pay it.

You are one of few talking sense here. However, I disagree he was "out of line" by making a show of the OP. He was asked to leave over the intercom, refused, so the driver came up to ask him to leave. And somehow the driver is now a "smart alec", "power trip freak" etc. Perhaps a touch OTT compared to most drivers, but asking someone to comply with the ticket they purchased, and after refusal by the OP, quite rightly waiting for the Gardai to deal with what was an offence (in law).

One person broke the law here, one may have broken company policy. Whose the real villain here?

IanCurtis

cast_iron wrote: »

He was asked to leave over the intercom, refused, so the driver came up to ask him to leave.

Not even! As the OP said, the driver called out "Dolphin's Barn" to let the OP know he was coming to the end of his fare. Yet he still stayed on the bus.

What did he expect was gonna happen? He was trying to get home on the cheap!

Student or not, had the OP paid the correct fare or got off when he should have, this would never have happened.

RayM

It's hard to feel any sympathy for somebody who knowingly doesn't bother paying their full fare and then gets caught. However, it was only 20 cents - and even taking into account the fact that all these 20 cents eventually add up - the driver's actions were, apart from rude and unprofessional, completely unnecessary and extended somewhat beyond his job description.

Let's just imagine a crazy scenario, whereby the driver allowed 'Unregistered' to complete his journey without leaving his cab and causing a scene. Yeah, I know - that 20 cent is undeniably the start of a slippery slope towards the eventual bankruptcy of Bus Atha Cliath - but during the length of time that the bus was idling, it's possible that 20 cents worth of diesel went up in smoke anyway. As 'Unregistered' is exiting the bus, the driver discreetly informs him (before opening the door) that he didn't pay the full fare, and that it better not happen again. Nobody is publicly humiliated, the rest of the passengers aren't inconvenienced, and maybe the driver's blood-pressure remains just that little bit lower too.

Thankfully, that kind of ignorant bus driver is a dying breed, but PR-wise, incidents like that are not good for Dublin Bus. The whole nonsense of crossing the driver's palm with silver is tedious and time consuming enough, without drivers taking it upon themselves to delay everybody further while they carry out the role of ticket inspector for the sake of a few cents.

Brian

Pride Fighter wrote: »

You go to Trinity. The bus driver was just taking out a bad day on someone who he knows is far superior to him mentally and probably in every other way as well.

Peslo?

Stark

RayM wrote: »

It's hard to feel any sympathy for somebody who knowingly doesn't bother paying their full fare and then gets caught. However, it was only 20 cents - and even taking into account the fact that all these 20 cents eventually add up - the driver's actions were, apart from rude and unprofessional, completely unnecessary and extended somewhat beyond his job description.

He could easily have walked the remaining 20c worth of the distance which wouldn't have been very far. If you're 20c short for a bag of shopping, do you stand there kicking up a fuss until the cashier has to call security over or do you simply put something to the side?

Ham'nd'egger

RayM wrote: »

Yeah, I know - that 20 cent is undeniably the start of a slippery slope towards the eventual bankruptcy of Bus Atha Cliath - but during the length of time that the bus was idling, it's possible that 20 cents worth of diesel went up in smoke anyway.

20 cent on a fare off €1.70 is a hell of a lot, actually.

Dublin Bus carried 148 million passenger trips in 2007. If we assumed that 10% of passengers were short paying on fares by 20 cent per trip (Some underpaying of fares would be greater than 20 cent), it costs the company €2.96 million. This money would actually buy an additional 100 new double deck buses for the fleet.

LiamD

Hamndegger wrote: »

20 cent on a fare off €1.70 is a hell of a lot, actually.

Dublin Bus carried 148 million passenger trips in 2007. If we assumed that 10% of passengers were short paying on fares by 20 cent per trip (Some underpaying of fares would be greater than 20 cent), it costs the company €2.96 million. This money would actually buy an additional 100 new double deck buses for the fleet.

One double deck bus costs €29,600???

Ham'nd'egger

LiamD wrote: »

One double deck bus costs €29,600???

Sorry, ten buses. Finger spasm

Metrobest

Hamndegger wrote: »

20 cent on a fare off €1.70 is a hell of a lot, actually.

Dublin Bus carried 148 million passenger trips in 2007. If we assumed that 10% of passengers were short paying on fares by 20 cent per trip (Some underpaying of fares would be greater than 20 cent), it costs the company €2.96 million. This money would actually buy an additional 100 new double deck buses for the fleet.

Dublin is the only city in the world where I've witnessed passengers wait at bus stops for so long that they are forced to flag down taxis to get to where they want to go on time.

Incidents like the OP's show why Dublin Bus is so unreliable. In the greater scheme of things, 70 people getting home quickly after a hard day's work is more important that one passenger 'getting away' with paying 20c less than he should have.

The driver's actions were completely out of line with the OP's error. It's probably because the OP goes to Trinity - and looks educated - that the driver felt he could get one up on him. Class envy is a very powerful thing.

I don't think the driver would have tried the same trick had the OP been a menancing-looking junkie.

BluntGuy

Metrobest wrote: »

I don't think the driver would have tried the same trick had the OP been a menancing-looking junkie.

Most likely true. But it doesn't take away from the fact that the both the driver and the OP were in the wrong at various points...

Anyway, a standard fare would've prevented this from happening (and I am sure there have been other incidents like this, where either the person was trying to dodge the fare or made a geniune error).

Stark

Metrobest wrote: »

Dublin is the only city in the world where I've witnessed passengers wait at bus stops for so long that they are forced to flag down taxis to get to where they want to go on time.

Try visiting one of Ireland's other 5 cities.

Metrobest wrote:

The driver's actions were completely out of line with the OP's error. It's probably because the OP goes to Trinity - and looks educated - that the driver felt he could get one up on him. Class envy is a very powerful thing.

"Oh they hate us because we're high class and well educated". Oh give me a break. The OP isn't the first person to get kicked off a bus for not paying the full fare. The reason you don't see it very often is because most people are either honest enough to pay the full fare or else get off without a fuss when their stop is called out over the intercom.

Metrobest wrote:

I don't think the driver would have tried the same trick had the OP been a menancing-looking junkie.

Can't say that a sense of self-preservation doesn't come into play. I have been on buses where there's a situation like that though and the driver will wait till he passes a Garda station and then call the Gardaí out. Maybe the OP would have preferred that treatment to being asked to walk 10 mins in the Dublin rain(when is the rain ever that heavy in Dublin?).

BluntGuy

Stark wrote: »

Can't say that a sense of self-preservation doesn't come into play. I have been on buses where there's a situation like that though and the driver will wait till he passes a Garda station and then call the Gardaí out. Maybe the OP would have preferred that treatment to being asked to walk 10 mins in the Dublin rain(when is the rain ever that heavy in Dublin?).

And the driver would've been perfectly entitled to do that in this case...

HAD other people not offered to pay the fare (provided, as I've said a million times, that the OP made a geniune mistake and wasn't trying to fare-dodge).

It's complicated, I can't say for sure who was "right" and who was "wrong". I will say though that the driver was initially correct, but then proceeded to ruin it with very poor and unprofessional handling of the situation.

Standard fares are the way to go people (I feel like starting a thread on this ).

Metrobest

Stark wrote: »

Try visiting one of Ireland's other 5 cities.

Depends how you classify a city. The only real city in the Republic is Dublin. The rest are large towns.

Stark wrote: »

"Oh they hate us because we're high class and well educated". Oh give me a break..

Well, he's probably not "high class" given the area we're talking about, but somebody enjoying social mobility in the post Celtic Tiger economy. But a lot of Irish people who don't go to Trinity have a kind of a reverse snobbery about the place. People are called "Trin heads" etc. So it's no surprise that the bus driver decided to take out his class envy on the unwitting OP.

Stark wrote: »

Can't say that a sense of self-preservation doesn't come into play. I have been on buses where there's a situation like that though and the driver will wait till he passes a Garda station and then call the Gardaí out. Maybe the OP would have preferred that treatment to being asked to walk 10 mins in the Dublin rain(when is the rain ever that heavy in Dublin?).

No, I think the driver just should have shown some common sense. It wasn't worth holding up 70 people, wasting everyone's time and money, just because one passenger's fare was 20c short.

Stark

BluntGuy wrote: »

It's complicated, I can't say for sure who was "right" and who was "wrong". I will say though that the driver was initially correct, but then proceeded to ruin it with very poor and unprofessional handling of the situation.

Well all we have is the biased account of the OP. But even from the OP's reading:

I told him this is not my stop and he said "fine, we'll wait for the guards". I refused to get out and walk for 10-15 minutes in the rain!
So I ended up confronting him downstairs, ask him why he is being like this, to which he replied "I didn't like your attitude" I offered to pay the extra 20 cent (which I didn't have), and he refused. Other passengers came down and asked how much the fare was and he refused.

The driver asked the OP to get off but the OP responded by becoming confrontational.

He stayed in his cab, and started reading the Herald. I gave out to him for forcing me to walk in the rain and holding everyone up.

I would say staying in the cab and waiting for the Gardaí to come would be the most sensible course of action when dealing with a passenger who had become confrontational and aggressive.

meanmachine3

Metrobest wrote: »

Dublin is the only city in the world where I've witnessed passengers wait at bus stops for so long that they are forced to flag down taxis to get to where they want to go on time.

Incidents like the OP's show why Dublin Bus is so unreliable. In the greater scheme of things, 70 people getting home quickly after a hard day's work is more important that one passenger 'getting away' with paying 20c less than he should have.

The driver's actions were completely out of line with the OP's error. It's probably because the OP goes to Trinity - and looks educated - that the driver felt he could get one up on him. Class envy is a very powerful thing.

I don't think the driver would have tried the same trick had the OP been a menancing-looking junkie.

a very good post except you should've made it a thread metro. my average running time is about 1 hour 15 mins i.e. thats how long i have to get from A to B or thats the amount of time it should take but in reality it takes anything from 1 hour 45 mins upto 2 hours.now answer me this metro.
is it my fault for taking nearly 2 hours, is dublin buses fault because of traffic congestion, is it both mine and dublin buses fault that our beloved government have'nt got the cop on to introduce a system like london has, where public transport is moving freely.
metro this thread is about what happened between 2 people, the O.P. and the driver. not what if there was a junkie, not what if there was someone smoking upstairs.
yes both handled it wrong.
the driver for not investigating why the O.P. was about to overstay his fare. but then again we cant get the drivers point of view as to whether the O.P. was asked where he was going when paying for his fare
then we have the O.P.
not explaining himself to the driver when paying his fare thats is asking how much it was to where he was going then asking the driver if it was alright to travel that far with only a €1.50 ticket , for confronting the driver and refusing to get of the bus. for not checking he has the right ticket when it was issued.
now before anyone jumps down my throat. i assume the O.P. was going home and it clearly states where your last stop is on your ticket and he would no doubt have known where that exact last stop was.
some people have an attitude where once they pay any sort of fare especially the lower ones it's their god given right to travel anywhere they like.

Ckal

IanCurtis wrote: »

Not even! As the OP said, the driver called out "Dolphin's Barn" to let the OP know he was coming to the end of his fare. Yet he still stayed on the bus.

What did he expect was gonna happen? He was trying to get home on the cheap!

Student or not, had the OP paid the correct fare or got off when he should have, this would never have happened.

If the OP honestly thought he paid the right fare, then the driver shouting out "Dolphin's Barn" would have meant nothing to him as he thought he paid to get as far as his preferred destination.

It was a mistake on the OPs part. I don't think he was intentionally dodging anything. I wouldn't bother dodging if it was only an extra 20¢.

AlekSmart

Metrobest: It's probably because the OP goes to Trinity - and looks educated - that the driver felt he could get one up on him. Class envy is a very powerful thing.

Interesting how this sub plot surfaces with absolutely no supporting evidence whatever....save possibly for the quite solidly embedded preconcieved notions of the posters

Even more odd is that over the years Busdriving in Dublin has had and continues to enjoy a very wide range of Metrobest`s "Classes".

I know of many degree holders who are currently driving for Bus Atha Cliath and to my own knowledge even a former lecturer.
The company does encourage further education as a desireable principle and offers structured assistance programmes to employees interested in it.

I would never assume that attendance at ANY particular educational institution confers some superior level or breath of understanding.

From my (continuing) experience it is far safer to assume a lower base level of comprehension,cooperation,compliance and refinement from Third Level students than from the general public.

Quite what this says about our second and third level educational systems is surely a topic for further exploration,but suffice to say my discussions with service and support staff in several Dublin Universities have reinforced my belief that something is VERY rotten in our eductional state of Denmark.

That said,I find that brevity,clarity and directness can be regarded as the three divines when dealing with such groups.

The act of utilizing a Public Transport service really should not demand a third level standard of education,although I fully concede that Dublin`s Public Transport systems suffer from the curse of the Higher Ranking Civil Servant in forcing the hoi-polloi to cope with a multiplicity of totally unintegrated fare systems within a single (small) city.

What we are left with therefore is the CURRENT system,which in Bus Atha Cliath`s case is the Fare-Stage system and it`s complimentary throwback to Bianconi`s days,the Cash Transaction.

This clinging to oul God`s time rituality is in fact strangling Dublins Bus network as can be observed all day long in O Connell St.

Dealy delay delay....more delay and coming along in a minute...additional delay.

Very few of our senior managers and absolutely NONE of the Department of Transport`s Senior Officials appear to have any concept of the basic principles of mass transit.

The behaviour patterns of the individual when allowed to gather in sizeable groups is indeed a sight to behold.

Take Shennagians1982`s comment

I guarantee the driver who wants the exact fare for the journey is not as quick to give people back their change ticket after they have paid too much.

This particular issue cuts yet again back to basics....Bus Atha Cliath purports to operate an "Exact Fare Only System"
The company then dilutes what is an essentially simple and widely accepted public transport system by introducing a "Change Ticket" which adds immesurably to the above mentioned delays throughout the network.

It is very frustrating for passengers who have taken on a small responsibility by purchasing a pre-paid ticket OR who make a point of always having their correct fare ready counted to be forced to sit and watch as a SMALL but ever-present hard core of vexatious customers conspire to delay EVERYBODY else as they fumble and meticulously count out individual coins into the vault.

Even then that delay may not be sufficient to satisfy their innermost desires as the same "Type" of person will often as not delay further as they cry..."What about my Change Driver,I gave you xxx "

Now,if a boarding passenger tenders an amount of coin and requests a €1.50 fare I will issue the ticket IMMEDIATELY without inspecting the amount forensically.
Most cash handling occupations develop a very accurate "sense" of amounts of coinage and Busdrivers are no exception.

Quite often I know that i`m getting €1.32 and a few pieces of metallic swarf but the vast majority of our passengers are unfailingly honest and simply wish to pay`n go.

I have often been approached by people who will say "I`ve only got €1.32 would you let me travel"...and the answer is an unequivocal YES.
Quite often I would meet the same person next day and they will drop in an extra 20c with their thanks and a smile .

These compliant people are the ones which I feel are not being supported or encouraged by Bus Atha Cliath`s policies as the company strives to "Serve all of the Community" a feelgood concept which increasingly results in it serving far fewer members of it with any degree of efficiency.

I cannot end this post without heaping praise on one section of the travelling public in particular.

Step forward those of you from the Phillipines and take a big bow

If any group of people can be said to actually understand the concept of PUBLIC Transport it is the Filipinos.

From my first exchanges with them as a group over 10 years ago I have been seriously impressed by their demanour and behavious as Public Transport Users.

Without fail,they have learned the fare structure for their journies.

Where appropriate they rapidly moved to pre-paid tickets and keep them clean and useable.

Those Filipinos who continue to use cash should be sought out by Bus Atha Cliath and used in Media Campaigns to demonstrate to our other customers,natives included,how to use a public bus service to best effect.

Inevitably,if paying cash, they will have the correct amount counted and ready BEFORE they board the Bus.
If travelling in groups it is usual for one of the group to have collected the fares for all and as a result reduce what for a native,would be a frenzy of rooting,fumbling and quizzical headscratching:confused ,to a simple multiple ticket issue.:)

Even more impressive was how as the Filipinos settled and set up homes here their ability to recognize the limitations of a mass public transport system in other ways.

Take for example the buggy issue.
From a complete standing start as it was unknown 10 years ago,the concept of the "Accessible Bus" has taken legs.
Now the salient point is that an accessible bus is NOT a designated "Buggy Bus" but is capable of SAFELY carrying a single occupied buggy,in the basence of a wheelchair.

I am sometimes humbled to watch the Filipino behavious if travelling with a buggy.
I regularly notice as I approach a busy City Centre stop that one of the adults will take the initiative and look into the Wheelchair Space to ascertain if it is occupied.
If it is I see them lift the infant and fold the buggy BEFORE approaching the platform.

This is the sort of behaviour which makes for an efficient Mass Transit operation and it deserves mention and praise.
It also deserves investigation as to why it should be so prevalent amongst such a relatively small section of our public transport users,but as far as I am concerned in Public Transport terms....FILIPINO`s ABÙ !!

Quite what this has to to with the OP`s situation escapes me at the moment but i`m sure somebody will be along in a minute to join the dots :eek:

__________________

KC61

Well said Alek!

dub_commuter

AlekSmart wrote: »

Now,if a boarding passenger tenders an amount of coin and requests a €1.50 fare I will issue the ticket IMMEDIATELY without inspecting the amount forensically.
Most cash handling occupations develop a very accurate "sense" of amounts of coinage and Busdrivers are no exception.

Quite often I know that i`m getting €1.32 and a few pieces of metallic swarf but the vast majority of our passengers are unfailingly honest and simply wish to pay`n go.

I have often been approached by people who will say "I`ve only got €1.32 would you let me travel"...and the answer is an unequivocal YES.
Quite often I would meet the same person next day and they will drop in an extra 20c with their thanks and a smile .

You're a decent guy. Congrats to you. However there are some idiots in DB who are not like this, one night on the 10, the last bus it was, someone had 1.49 for the fare for what was a 1.50 fare and the driver would not let her on, despite the fact that she has seen the same bus and the same driver regularly before. Some common sense should be used here.

I get the same bus to and from work every day, One time I was caught without fare, entirely accidental, the driver saw me, having seen me every morning for months, and told me to get on and not to worry about it, much to the disgust of the off duty driver who was on the bus saying that if he did this to everyone the company would go under. The driver then explained to the guy that I got the bus every day for months and he knows I'm genuine and I'm one of his regulars. Off duty guy went and explained that at the end of the day I was now a fare evader - when in fact I didn't realize till I got to the driver I did not have anything other than notes, and the driver was the one who told me to go ahead!

antoinolachtnai

In principle, yes, a person might have evaded a fare if they don't pay the 'appropriate fare' (1.50 or 1.70 or whatever).

The problem with this is that in circumstances like the current one, you would have no hope of getting a criminal conviction because it would be impossible to prove mens rea, i.e., an intent or foreknowledge of doing wrong.

That is the reason why the 'standard fare' was introduced. You do not need mens rea to incur the standard fare.

Once a passenger has been served a standard fare notice on a journey, it is much easier for the bus company to go to court later and get a conviction if the customer does the same thing again, because the passenger will obviously be aware that what he or she is doing is wrong and the bus company will have the paperwork to prove it.

Dealing with persistent offenders is what revenue protection is all about. It's not about kicking off or embarassing regular passengers who are 20c short and it's certainly no about clamping down on tourists. It's about stopping persistent fraud, people who never pay the right fare, and my own feeling is that there are plenty of them. (I think this feeling is shared by others.)

I can understand drivers being upset about the whole thing. DB numbers are down 4 percent (which is really an underestimate, because last year there was a fairly protracted strike). Now it would appear that drivers' jobs are in danger.

Vic_08

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Dealing with persistent offenders is what revenue protection is all about. It's not about kicking off or embarassing regular passengers who are 20c short and it's certainly no about clamping down on tourists. It's about stopping persistent fraud, people who never pay the right fare, and my own feeling is that there are plenty of them. (I think this feeling is shared by others.)

All very true EXCEPT that we only have the word of the OP that it was a one-off and more importantly even if that is the case how is the driver supposed to know this? In my experience the attitude of a person when confronted USUALLY gives the best indication of that and from his own posts the way he reacted didn't help the OP appear innocent.

Over travelling is by far the most common form of fare evasion on DB (with the exception of DSW pass abuse/fraud which is another issue) and there is no easy way of telling a "genuine" mistake from a habitual evader. Certain types (your typical Dublin scanger scumbag for one) would be an obvious target but I can assure you that well-dressed, well spoken types can also be likely offenders. Just ask LUAS inspectors who deal with just as much fare-evading on the middle-class Green Line as on the Red line.

Jonathan

The country is in recession and you are trying to scam the government out of money peslo?

Good one.

BluntGuy

jmccrohan wrote: »

The country is in recession and you are trying to scam the government out of money peslo?

Good one.

Hey, they've been doing it to us for the last 12 years.