Kicked off of the 56A!

passive

Stark wrote: »

Try visiting one of Ireland's other 5 cities.

I love how you ignored his best and most uncontestable point about the 70 other passengers

scorpioishere

Hi
I fully agree with you how rude they are at dublin bus. I've seen a dublin bus driver telling a foreign guy to **** off three times on the bus one day because the guy was asking him why he didn't stop at the bus stop as he press the bell.

Anyway most of the drivers are lazy, ignorant and stupid. Dublin bus is a crap company along with its staff. You should brought that case to the court. i have enough of them being so selfish and not helpful at all.

I took the 41 number sometimes and most of them are rude there. There should be some inspectors to check them out and make them do their jobs properly and follow the proper public timetable and not their own.

BUt for me i dnt care at all about them, when i enter the bus i just throw the money in, pay my fare and when i leave the bus, not even a thank you because they doesn't deserve it anyway. And even if you say thank you, they have their head turn back so whats the point. They should follow the nice job their colleagues in the UK does.

cast_iron

passive wrote: »

I love how you ignored his best and most uncontestable point about the 70 other passengers

Of course it's contestable.

How much would make it unreasonable to delay others. Evading the full fare would equate to just over 2c per passenger (€1.70 between 70). Hardly worthwhile delaying over 70 passengers really, now, is it? Of course not.

But, of course, that's not and never was the point. Fare evasion is just that, regardless of whether it's 20c or €2. And fare evasion is what the OP was demanding (which I find hard to believe in self!) and expecting, and he didn't seem to mind making 70 innocent members of the public wait for the Gardai to rightly come and deal with a fare dodger.

IanCurtis

Ckal wrote: »

If the OP honestly thought he paid the right fare, then the driver shouting out "Dolphin's Barn" would have meant nothing to him as he thought he paid to get as far as his preferred destination.

It was a mistake on the OPs part. I don't think he was intentionally dodging anything. I wouldn't bother dodging if it was only an extra 20¢.

Fair point

Vic_08

dub_commuter wrote: »

You're a decent guy. Congrats to you. However there are some idiots in DB who are not like this, one night on the 10, the last bus it was, someone had 1.49 for the fare for what was a 1.50 fare and the driver would not let her on, despite the fact that she has seen the same bus and the same driver regularly before. Some common sense should be used here.

I would agree to a certain extent but at the end of the day if the fare is 1.50 then the passenger should pay 1.50. Why is it that people expect to be let away with underpaying a bus fare? Do these same people go into a convenience store and expect the cashier to take 1.50 for a 1.55 loaf of bread?

dub_commuter wrote: »

I get the same bus to and from work every day, One time I was caught without fare, entirely accidental, the driver saw me, having seen me every morning for months, and told me to get on and not to worry about it, much to the disgust of the off duty driver who was on the bus saying that if he did this to everyone the company would go under. The driver then explained to the guy that I got the bus every day for months and he knows I'm genuine and I'm one of his regulars. Off duty guy went and explained that at the end of the day I was now a fare evader - when in fact I didn't realize till I got to the driver I did not have anything other than notes, and the driver was the one who told me to go ahead!

In that situation the off duty driver should have minded his own business and discussed it privately with the driver. Letting people on without a ticket is a very bad idea though for a number of reasons, IMO the driver shouldn't have done it and you shouldn't have put him in the position of having to either let you on or kick you off.

In Bus Eireann the situation is different as unlike Dublin Bus the money paid in is directly linked to the driver. If a passenger doesn't have enough money and I issue a ticket then I am responsible for paying in the full amount so I will end up paying the shortfall out of my own pocket. I have done this on the odd occasion with small sums but I wouldn't make a habit of it, I don't go to work in order to fund other people's travel. We do also get a certain amount of chancers who use a number of methods to try and avoid paying the full fare and with these I will not give any leeway at all.

shltter

scorpioishere wrote: »

Hi
I fully agree with you how rude they are at dublin bus. I've seen a dublin bus driver telling a foreign guy to **** off three times on the bus one day because the guy was asking him why he didn't stop at the bus stop as he press the bell.

Anyway most of the drivers are lazy, ignorant and stupid. Dublin bus is a crap company along with its staff. You should brought that case to the court. i have enough of them being so selfish and not helpful at all.

I took the 41 number sometimes and most of them are rude there. There should be some inspectors to check them out and make them do their jobs properly and follow the proper public timetable and not their own.

BUt for me i dnt care at all about them, when i enter the bus i just throw the money in, pay my fare and when i leave the bus, not even a thank you because they doesn't deserve it anyway. And even if you say thank you, they have their head turn back so whats the point. They should follow the nice job their colleagues in the UK does.

Nice attitude

Of course when it comes back and bites you on the arse you can come here and have a moan about it.

shltter

passive wrote: »

I love how you ignored his best and most uncontestable point about the 70 other passengers

There is nothing that is uncontestable

1 We only have the OPs version of events

2 Did he count how many people were on the bus

3 Did he canvass the opinion of all of the people on the bus

4 Did they all offer to pay his fare of those that did was it because they thought the op was in the right or the thought of waiting an hour for the Gardai.




When something like this happens there are people who offer money some because they feel sorry for the guy others because they just want to get going again.

The Driver is under no obligation to take money from anyone for the passengers fare.
It was highlighted to the passenger that he had reached the stop he had paid to. He refused to leave the bus he started arguing with the driver
at that stage he is not staying on the bus no matter who offers money on his behalf.
Incidentally the fare to continue on is not the 20c extra he should have paid when he boarded it is at least €1.05 depending on how far he wished to travel.


Lastly in my experience the only time drivers do this is when,

A someone got on with an attitude.
B someone is doing it regularly and the driver has had enough.

If you are carrying 70-100 people it is impossible to remember what everyone paid or when they got on or when they are due to get off.
Doing that is deliberate on a full bus and it was for a reason I would imagine the OP has a fair idea as to why he was singled out because I guarantee you on a 56A he was not the only one who did not pay his full fare.

MOH

dub_commuter wrote: »

And there are also some people who are fixated with "City Centre" and will see one bus with a scroll saying the exact street and will ignore it, and another going the exact same place but with the magical words "City Centre" and hold their hands out for it. It really annoys me.

What if you're not familiar with the exact street? If most buses say City Centre, and you see one with a particular street name, you could easily assume that it's not going to the City Centre.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Page 6 of the Customer Charter (http://www.dublinbus.ie/home/Customer%20Charter%20English.pdf) contains a commitment that Dublin Bus staff will be polite and helpful. I don't know if there was any workplace agreement about this.

If that's anything like the Irish Rail passenger charter, it's a work of fiction which confers absoutely no obligations on the staff.

MojoMaker wrote: »

Wha you're not hearing on this thread is what the OP did as he boarded the bus that made the driver onfident in acting like a jobsworth later on in the journey. Please tell us OP, how did he even remember/know you?

He's already said that two buses arrived together, he was the only one at the stop who ran for the second one, and he felt the driver was trying to avoid stopping there. That would make the driver remember him.

IanCurtis wrote: »

Not even! As the OP said, the driver called out "Dolphin's Barn" to let the OP know he was coming to the end of his fare. Yet he still stayed on the bus.

What did he expect was gonna happen? He was trying to get home on the cheap!

Student or not, had the OP paid the correct fare or got off when he should have, this would never have happened.

Eh, no, he said the driver called "Dolphin's Barn". He also said he had no idea this applied to him - why would he, since he didn't think he'd underpaid?

asdasd

A someone got on with an attitude.
B someone is doing it regularly and the driver has had enough.

I don't trust the OP. Here is why

1) he had 1.50 only. he had to get home with that. so he needed to do something.
2) He mentioned that he was taking a different bus to normal. He clearly knew where it was going however.
3) If the route was not known to him it is unlikely that he got on and said 1.50. Why not ask where that would actually take him?
4) The bus driver remembered him. He probably wouldnt remember a fare who said 1.50 as Dolphins Bard - he may have remembered either a fare who specifically said Dolphins Barn, or has been doing this a lot.

so i dont trust the OP

dub_commuter

Vic_08 wrote: »

I would agree to a certain extent but at the end of the day if the fare is 1.50 then the passenger should pay 1.50. Why is it that people expect to be let away with underpaying a bus fare? Do these same people go into a convenience store and expect the cashier to take 1.50 for a 1.55 loaf of bread?

Difference is the person never did it deliberately and otherwise they would have been stuck there all night. Some of the drivers thankfully have some common sense and actually want to help the public, and actually want to give quality customer service as they realize it's a public service. Others seem to hate passengers with a passion.

IMO the driver shouldn't have done it and you shouldn't have put him in the position of having to either let you on or kick you off.

I never put him in the position. I didn't realize until I went to put the money in. I'd just come back from the airport the day before and mistaken a foreign currency coin but a cent coin as they were similar. Rather than putting the coin in anyway and trying to con the driver, I realized and explained to him as I was about to. He thanked me for being honest as most people would not. The driver did it because he knows I would never con the bus company, and am a regular on the same service for over a year.

Unregistered.

Definition of IRONY::
Got the bus yesterday morning, usual stop. Paid my usual 1.50, asked for a 1.50 fare....



Got a ticket for 1.70.

asdasd wrote: »

I don't trust the OP. Here is why

1) he had 1.50 only. he had to get home with that. so he needed to do something.
2) He mentioned that he was taking a different bus to normal. He clearly knew where it was going however. NO I DID NOT!!! I specifically mentioned there were at least five buses that travel the same route, (i would have gotten at least one of them everyday to school since i was 8!)
[S]3) If the route was not known to him it is unlikely that he got on and said 1.50. Why not ask where that would actually take him?
4) The bus driver remembered him. He probably wouldnt remember a fare who said 1.50 as Dolphins Bard - he may have remembered either a fare who specifically said Dolphins Barn, or has been doing this a lot.

so i dont trust the OP

paulm17781

Unregistered. wrote: »

Definition of IRONY::
Got the bus yesterday morning, usual stop. Paid my usual 1.50, asked for a 1.50 fare....

How does that express something other than it's literal intention? :P

Unregistered.

paulm17781 wrote: »

How does that express something other than it's literal intention? :P

huh?

antoinolachtnai

Vic_08 wrote: »

All very true EXCEPT that we only have the word of the OP that it was a one-off and more importantly even if that is the case how is the driver supposed to know this? In my experience the attitude of a person when confronted USUALLY gives the best indication of that and from his own posts the way he reacted didn't help the OP appear innocent.

That might well be true, but unfortunately it's not the sort of thing that stands up in court. It's not at all clear that any bye-law was broken. There was no hard evidence that this wasn't a one-off. To prove a criminal charge would require more than the opinion of the bus driver.

From a business point of view, the episode was a complete failure. A bus full or more of people (possibly including the driver) had their journeys delayed. No extra revenue was collected, potential revenue was actually lost. No 'point' was proven. If the Garda had arrived it would have been even worse, because Garda time would have been wasted on something that had been mishandled and couldn't be taken any further.

You have to protect revenue, but it has to be done in a way that doesn't disrupt the customer experience and the whole operation of the route.

prentice

you didnt want to walk 10 minutes in the rain ?

you big lazy blouse

stovelid

Pride Fighter wrote: »

You go to Trinity. The bus driver was just taking out a bad day on someone who he knows is far superior to him mentally and probably in every other way as well.

I went to Trinity. I wouldn't say that this is the case. At all.

Perhaps students should use their considerable intellect to grasp the concept of ticket zones. And to grasp the corollary fact that getting on at a different stop might put you into a different zone.

That's why I used to get a weekly ticket when I used the bus, incidentally along that route for years.

The driver was obviously a jackass, but he probably gets fare-dodgers all the time. Especially on that route.

rx8

12 pages and nearly 170 posts later,has anything been achieved or even agreed? I think not.

Firstly you should have complained in writing to Mr.John Saunders,who is the manager of Ringsend garage and would have investigated the matter in full.
You should have done this immediately as the cctv system has probably recorded over the incident by now.
Was it a regular 56a driver who pulled you up,or was it a spare driver?

I don't agree with the way the driver handled the incident but there seems to be more to it than you are telling us!

I too am a 56a driver and most people who use this route are regulars who rely solely on this bus,and you see the same faces day after day hence almost everyone pays the correct fare.

I have on occasion put someone off the bus for over-riding but only if they give me some other reason to do so,like drinking or smoking etc. It's not my job to hassle passengers for additional money,but if I notice someone getting on who regularly pays the incorrect fare then I will challenge them when they are boarding.

We are not all power-hungry little hitlers but sometimes it's satisfying to make a particular individual pay their fair share.:D

Anyway if DB have their way, then the 56A will not be around for much longer!:eek:

antoinolachtnai

Well, to be fair to Dublin Bus, the first thing the passenger should have done was stated his destination to the driver on entering the bus and paid the correct fare :-) But it's a bit late for that now.

scheister

reading this only one thing comes to mind how'd the driver spot him "evading" the 20 cent. Sure is it not a good 20 if not 30 journey from a to b. there seems to be something more here had you fought with the driver before this day. but the driver was in right in theroy but in princeipal way off. sure a fare is a fare but simple mistake like getting on few stops earler and not realising the fare change is nothin

tubos

Both driver and OP are in the wrong

OP should have asked for price to destination if it was his first time to get on at that stop
Driver should have asked him to pay a new fare if he wanted to continue

spareman

If I'm correct op went behind another bus that was stopped at his stop to hail down the 56A, this other bus traveled the exact same route as the 56A as far as Walkinstown, So the driver would presume the op was intending to travel past Walkinstown, and when op tendered €1.50 the driver may even have notified op that his fare was good to Dolphins barn only, which may explain the announcement on the pa system, had the bus driver known op was intending to exit 3 stops down the road I very much doubt he would have bothered as it would not be worth the hassle.

In my experience as a bus driver, passengers can react in 3 ways when confronted with breaking the bus bye laws.

1. They can be apologetic and admit they are wrong and leave the bus in a peacefully manner when requested to do so.

2. They can stand there ground and insist on waiting for the boys in blue, some even calling the guards themselves.

3. They can become aggressive and confrontational toward the driver and any other passengers who are seen to be talking the drivers side.

It is my opinion that op seemed to be leaning toward category 3, therefore the bus driver has no choice at this stage but to stand his ground and insist op be ejected from his bus regardless of the offers from other passengers to pay op's fare.

Obviously I would be a little biased toward my colleague in this situation but I am trying to keep an open mind, and unlike most posters here I have the benefit of seeing this argument from both sides of the fence. I believe op's actions caused the driver to react, and the drivers actions caused op to react, 6 of 1 and half dozen of the other.

Again this thread has attracted the usual suspects and bus haters who have rolled in with the latest statistics from the CSO, which is disappointing to say the least. I am however intrigued to know how so many posters here seem to believe the bus driver knew op was a trinity college student? I mean I have known for some time now that the general public believe us mere low life bus drivers have psychic Powers by the way they signal there intention to take a bus then complain when the bus didn't stop for them, but this really does intrigue me, Also has this issue been reported to Dublin bus? What was there reaction? and what reaction do you think would be appropriate?

shltter

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That might well be true, but unfortunately it's not the sort of thing that stands up in court. It's not at all clear that any bye-law was broken. There was no hard evidence that this wasn't a one-off. To prove a criminal charge would require more than the opinion of the bus driver.

48. No person shall remain on the vehicle after having been requested by an authorised person to depart.

11. Each passenger shall be in a possession of a current valid ticket entitling him to travel.


16. Each passenger when boarding a vehicle operated by a driver only shall:

(a) inform the driver of his intended destination, and

(b) except the passenger is already in possession of a valid ticket, pay the appropriate fare for such journey and ensure that he has been issued with a valid ticket and retain such ticket, and

(c) produce his ticket for inspection by an authorised person whenever so requested by such person and inform him of the place at which he boarded the vehicle and the journey he has made or intends to make.


39. Each passenger shall comply with any lawful direction given him by an authorised person, including a request to leave or not to board the vehicle.

dfx-

rx8 wrote: »

I too am a 56a driver and most people who use this route are regulars who rely solely on this bus,and you see the same faces day after day hence almost everyone pays the correct fare.

As a 56A user..hello

rx8 wrote: »

Anyway if DB have their way, then the 56A will not be arourd for much longer!:eek:

rx8

dfx- wrote: »

As a 56A user..hello

Eh... NO...!!!!

DRIVER, 4 years marked-in on the 50/56A.

zuroph

dfx- wrote: »

As a 56A user..hello

No TALKING to the DRIVER!!!
Dont make him tap the sign!

rx8

LOL..........now back to the poker forum with ye.:rolleyes:

Unregistered.

spareman wrote: »

Also has this issue been reported to Dublin bus? What was there reaction? and what reaction do you think would be appropriate?

Yes, both via email (couldn’t get through on phone) last Thursday (the day it happened), then by phone on Friday.
I was given the usual, "we'll pass it on to the area manager" on the email.
The guy on the phone, after hearing the situation kept re-iterating that "he was just sticking to the book, the fare should have been 1.70" even though I was making a complaint about the driver’s attitude and behaviour through the situation. Found the phone call really frustrating, I wanted to complain about the guy who I was actually talking to.

However, yesterday morning, I received a voicemail from Ringsend Area Manager. He said they identified the driver in question, "will be speaking to him" about it and apologised.


I suppose what I really want, what I feel is necessary for DB, would be for this driver to see some serious disciplinary action for, essentially, bringing the name of DB into disrupt. Which I am sorry to say has happened. Whether you, me, the general public or any of drivers here agree or disagree, this is what has happened to a certain extent.
It is NOT fair that guys like this should be giving DB drivers a bad name.
This is why I feel the need for management to take action on it.

Carawaystick

Having read through the entire thread, there seems to be a few persons at fault.
The OP didn't (for whatever reason) pay the correct fare to bring him to his required destination.

The bus driver was from the account not helpful to all the other passengers not the OP and from the OP's account wasn't polite as the Dublin bus customer charter states "
All staff will:
• be polite and helpful to you,"

Dublin bus do not clearly advertise the prices of their services. Vic uses a comparison with a person buying goods in a shop, but this analogy falls down because a shop must clearly display prices of all the goods they sell; failure to do this is a criminal offense that can result in a prison sentence.

The Govt refused Dublin bus's attempt to simplify and "flattten" the fare structure when the euro entered circulation. the DoT apply a law from the 1930's to public transport, the minister thinks there are enough busses serving dublin despite potential customers being regularly left behind at stops.


Posters here have stated the OP should have clearly stated his destination while boarding and then waited for the Driver to state the fare and then pick the correct fare from his pile of coins.

As Alek has pointed out, in this and many other threads, waiting for passengers to pay is one of the biggest delays to the efficient operation of the bus service.

The current system seems to give certainty as to what fare a customer should pay, at the expense of delaying boarding OR no delay boarding at the expense of a lack of certainty for customers.

A flat fare, with round number fare prices or a zone system again with round fares is the only sensible system. Dublin is blessed with two different physical zone boundaries, the Canals and the M50. Obviously, these aren't complete zone boundaries, but would be definite and clear boundaries.

Lastly, a reliance on byelaws always seems to be a cop out. I don't think any of the profitable public transport companies use byelaws, only some of the loss making state owned ones. The CIE group seem good at publishing statements and advertising, which completely is at odds with the byelaws. The other state owned rail operation seems to be more consistent.


At the end of the day, Any subsidised public transport company should be run for the benefit of its passengers, not its staff, Govt or its management.

shltter

Carawaystick wrote: »

Having read through the entire thread, there seems to be a few persons at fault.
The OP didn't (for whatever reason) pay the correct fare to bring him to his required destination.

The bus driver was from the account not helpful to all the other passengers not the OP and from the OP's account wasn't polite as the Dublin bus customer charter states "
All staff will:
• be polite and helpful to you,"

Dublin bus do not clearly advertise the prices of their services. Vic uses a comparison with a person buying goods in a shop, but this analogy falls down because a shop must clearly display prices of all the goods they sell; failure to do this is a criminal offense that can result in a prison sentence.

The Govt refused Dublin bus's attempt to simplify and "flattten" the fare structure when the euro entered circulation. the DoT apply a law from the 1930's to public transport, the minister thinks there are enough busses serving dublin despite potential customers being regularly left behind at stops.


Posters here have stated the OP should have clearly stated his destination while boarding and then waited for the Driver to state the fare and then pick the correct fare from his pile of coins.

As Alek has pointed out, in this and many other threads, waiting for passengers to pay is one of the biggest delays to the efficient operation of the bus service.

The current system seems to give certainty as to what fare a customer should pay, at the expense of delaying boarding OR no delay boarding at the expense of a lack of certainty for customers.

A flat fare, with round number fare prices or a zone system again with round fares is the only sensible system. Dublin is blessed with two different physical zone boundaries, the Canals and the M50. Obviously, these aren't complete zone boundaries, but would be definite and clear boundaries.

Lastly, a reliance on byelaws always seems to be a cop out. I don't think any of the profitable public transport companies use byelaws, only some of the loss making state owned ones. The CIE group seem good at publishing statements and advertising, which completely is at odds with the byelaws. The other state owned rail operation seems to be more consistent.


At the end of the day, Any subsidised public transport company should be run for the benefit of its passengers, not its staff, Govt or its management.

Is it for the benefit of the passengers to allow a minority to abuse the system and evade their fare surely all this does is increase the amount that the state must subsidise the operations.

What exactly is published that is at odds with the bye laws


lastly the OP i believe has been less than forthcoming with the actual full story why out of a bus full of people did the driver remember him and the fare he paid and where he was sitting and when he was due to get off.

The only reason i ever and it is very rare is someone has an attitude getting on or if it is common enough for them to do it that I notice it or they are acting the maggot.

Other than that I have enough on my plate without tracking each passengers fares and movements someone has to go out of their way for me to pay that much attention to them.

shltter

Unregistered. wrote: »

I suppose what I really want, what I feel is necessary for DB, would be for this driver to see some serious disciplinary action for, essentially, bringing the name of DB into disrupt. Which I am sorry to say has happened. Whether you, me, the general public or any of drivers here agree or disagree, this is what has happened to a certain extent.
It is NOT fair that guys like this should be giving DB drivers a bad name.
This is why I feel the need for management to take action on it.

On what basis

He called your stop you did not move

He then pointed out that you had reached your destination and you refused to leave the bus

You then followed him downstairs and started arguing with him

He did not give you his name he does not have to

What do you think was the attitude he was referring to that made him pick you out do you have any idea?


Now seriously look at the situation

You are a fare evader who when approached refuses to leave the bus and starts arguing with the driver do you honestly think he is going to be disciplined.
Stand back and look at it from the managers point of view who will deal with it does he want to get into a situation where he is punishing a driver for protecting revenue.
You say he was brash he will say he had an argumentative passenger who refused to leave the bus when they did not have a valid ticket the rules are straight forward it is YOUR responsibility to have the correct ticket.

The company are lecturing drivers continually about protecting revenue the chances they are going to discipline him are about the same as a snowballs chance in hell.

Profiler

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, to be fair to Dublin Bus, the first thing the passenger should have done was stated his destination to the driver on entering the bus and paid the correct fare :-) But it's a bit late for that now.

well... if you are lucky...

You should try the magical fare as I like to call it. It's on the number 11 bus. The journey from the Middle of Home Farm road to O'Connell street.

Somedays it costs me €1.50 and some days it costs me €2.00

Some days when I get on the bus outside Corpus Christi primary school as I do every time I take the 11 into work I magically get transported back to Wadelai Park... or at least my ticket tells me that's where I got on!

I made the mistake of suggesting to the driver that he has neglected to update what stop he just visited.

I got a very angry response... on telling the driver to calm down and stating that he was overreacting the driver turned the engine off and said if I didn't get off the bus he would call the Gardai on me.

I smiled, took out my mobile phone and asked if he would like to use to call the Gardai. The driver shot me a look (that would kill if looks could kill) started the engine, closed the door of the bus (with me still on it) and drove off.

AlekSmart

Unregistered : Actually, maybe it's worth pointing this out, as to what "type of bus driver he was" -

Do you know when two buses come, and the one behind tries to sneak off? Well he was on of them drivers!

*I am really finicky about buses, e.g, if two buses come, i get on the one with least amount of people, or if an old one and a new one come together, I have to get on the new one. etc..*
So @ Pearse Street, two buses came at once, and i ran down to get this one before he overtook the first one. I was the only person to get on there, but it only had a few people on at this stage.
However, passengers @ Trinity College stop were not so lucky! He thought his bus was out of view and overtook the bus in front, even though there were passengers coming down to get it!!!!
he was like that a most if the stops, not pulling in until he had to, almost trying to avoid picking people up.

And did i mention it was raining yesterday?

What on the surface appeared to be quite a legitimate complaint from the OP began to metamorphose in post 48,quoted above.

I am always reluctant in my dealings with people,in either my public or private capacity of attempting to typecast others.

It is something one learns from life experience and in Busdriving terms can mean the difference between night and day.

Some examples would be,the amount of people who cannot read..destinations,numbers or notices.
The amount of people who cannot count.
People who are virtually deaf.
People suffering from a wide range of physical and emotional problems such as Tourette`s.

In no case can I as a Busdriver tell "what type" of persons they are from looking at them,even if they exhibit the occasional tell tale sign.
Nor do I want to.
These and all other passengers are Individuals and each journey they make is a new one,a distinct one from whatever went before and I most certainly won`t take any personality defining aspects out of their brief interchange with me a "mere" (apologies to Prize Fighter) Busdriver

In this instance the OP goes a little further and tells us that he actually knew what the driver was thinking.

This I fear takes the nature of the original complaint and paints around it a new and enlightening background.

However,staying with the broader picture and Antoin O`L`s mention of the mens rea element.
It`s clear from his post that by removing any and all Stage Point Markings from its Bus Stops,Bus Atha Cliath has effectively ended its chances of securing a conviction in any Civil or Criminal Court.

Any person caught over-riding or evading a Bus Fare can simply testify to the effect that there was no indication of a stage marking at their point of boarding nor at any other point in their journey.

A Judge would,I believe simply ask counsel for the company if this were true and upon confirmation would simply strike out.....whether the plaintiff might have a case for wrongful prosecution as a result of the companys failure to conform to the requirements of its own system is a horse of another colour.

zuroph

AlekSmart wrote: »

Unregistered : Actually, maybe it's worth pointing this out, as to what "type of bus driver he was" -

Do you know when two buses come, and the one behind tries to sneak off? Well he was on of them drivers!


What on the surface appeared to be quite a legitimate complaint from the OP began to metamorphose in post 48,quoted above.

I am always reluctant in my dealings with people,in either my public or private capacity of attempting to typecast others.

It is something one learns from life experience and in Busdriving terms can mean the difference between night and day.

Some examples would be,the amount of people who cannot read..destinations,numbers or notices.
The amount of people who cannot count.
People who are virtually deaf.
People suffering from a wide range of physical and emotional problems such as Tourette`s.

In no case can I as a Busdriver tell "what type" of persons they are from looking at them,even if they exhibit the occasional tell tale sign.
Nor do I want to.
These and all other passengers are Individuals and each journey they make is a new one,a distinct one from whatever went before and I most certainly won`t take any personality defining aspects out of their brief interchange with me a "mere" (apologies to Prize Fighter) Busdriver

In this instance the OP goes a little further and tells us that he actually knew what the driver was thinking.

This I fear takes the nature of the original complaint and paints around it a new and enlightening background.

However,staying with the broader picture and Antoin O`L`s mention of the mens rea element.
It`s clear from his post that by removing any and all Stage Point Markings from its Bus Stops,Bus Atha Cliath has effectively ended its chances of securing a conviction in any Civil or Criminal Court.

Any person caught over-riding or evading a Bus Fare can simply testify to the effect that there was no indication of a stage marking at their point of boarding nor at any other point in their journey.

A Judge would,I believe simply ask counsel for the company if this were true and upon confirmation would simply strike out.....whether the plaintiff might have a case for wrongful prosecution as a result of the companys failure to conform to the requirements of its own system is a horse of another colour.

you think too much.

AlekSmart

Profiler,good on ye !

You should try the magical fare as I like to call it. It's on the number 11 bus. The journey from the Middle of Home Farm road to O'Connell street.

Somedays it costs me €1.50 and some days it costs me €2.00

It`s very simple really Home Farm Road Stage 20 to O Connell St Stage 25 = 5 Stages = €1.50.

No mystery....Thats why,as the signs in the chippers say,Please check your change before leaving.
The number 11 Terminus,Wadelai Park is Stage 18,Ballymun Road (The Rise) 19 and your point of boarding 20.

Where it gets interesting is Stage 21 Drumcondra Road Upper (Clonturk Park).
Here we have the limit of the €1.05 fare from the DCU gate which is still Stage 18.

Now the vast majority of those boarding at DCU are heading either to Drumcondra Rail Station (a rare example of modal integration in Dublin) or to An Lar.

However,in a substantial amount of cases no amount of gentle cajoling,direct enquiries,thumbscrews or vats of boiling oil can elicit a straight response,although to be fair DCU does specialize in courses geared towards the Communications industry.

Driver:Q."Where are you going ?"
Passenger:A."Ermm..eh..um..just down the road"

Driver: Q. "How far down the road"
Passenger: A. "Ah...a couple of stops like"

DRiver: Q."A couple of stops ? as in Two stops ?You`re getting off at Mobhi Road then ?"
Passenger: A.Eh..No,actually Drumcondra then.....

Driver: Q (Sighing heavily a la Parisian Bus Drivers when confronted by a Cash paying customer) "Whereabouts in Drumcondra"
Passenger : A ..........the....Train Station.....

Driver: " Thats €1.50 please"
Passenger: A. "But...I only ever pay €1.05" or
"The other driver said €1.05" or variations on that theme.

Did I mention it was raining and there`s a substantial queue behind the frustrated passenger ?

The next passenger then boards and sez....€1.05 pleese ..:eek: :eek: :eek:......

After a session of this mallarkey,its SO easy to just pass Stage 19 without updating,especially if there`s nobody there.
However Profilers fare to OC St would still be €1.50.

Did I also mention that there`s a nifty little Info Panel on the Bus Shelter with maps,timetables and other stuff like fares and stage information,but it`s usually only referred to by forriners who actually want to know the correct fare

I have been called a pwick,a smartass,a wonkstain,an assshole and much more besides for having the temerity to request the correct fare for the journey.

But hey....It comes with the territory and I don`t lose any sleep over it.

I must admit however to having to constantly remind myself that I am not dealing with underpriviliged,disadvantaged or otherwise deprived young people here.
I am dealing with young adults who by and large have progressed through two steps of our entire educational system and secured enough points to enter a University of some renown.

Just how much slack does one cut when dealing with situations such as this on an ongoing and increasing basis?

I should qualify all of the above by mentioning that the above scenario occurs during University Business Hours....Later in the night as sadly both Quinns and The Big Tree are in the €1.50 band the exact same tabelau is repeated except for some slurring of words and a certain instability of stature as well as a LOT more aggressive behaviour...

But hey...It comes with the territory and I don`t lose any sleep etc etc...

However any cash paying passenger should bear in mind the stricture contained in the Points of Law page of the Timetable.

Each passenger on boarding a bus shall:
Ensure that he/she has been issued with a valid ticket

Check it out !

By the way just to ensure a degree of balance is maintained and also to deflect allegations of North/South bias I should state that the EXACT same situation exists at UCD Belfield in relation to Ranelagh Village (Smyths and McSorelys being the Southern States equivalent of Quinns and The Big Tree)

Oh for the Joy of a FLAT FARE

meanmachine3

well said alek. a bit of a read but correctly put.
now over the last few days i was plodding away, the bus was fairly empty as in only about 6 passengers on, this guy gets on has a ticket in his hand and as i'm moving off walks past both validators. i looked at my ticket equipment to see if he used his ticket and to see what type of ticket he had. oh yes boys and girls even though we might not see what type of ticket you have, it does show up on our machines but getting back to my main point. i pulled into the next stop went upstairs asked this guy for his ticket went down to the smartcard reader with his ticket and lord and behold it used up one of his days. the guy hadn't even bothered to validate his ticket and when i said it to him his answer was "i didn't know i had to do that" . these poor passengers were delayed by about 3-4 minutes.
now my question to you folks is
was he fare evading or was it a genuine mistake? and do you think i was right in confronting him over his ticket or should i have just let him travel for free just because i had a few passengers
to the O.P. i would love you to put up a poll about your run in with the driver and just asked the following.
was the driver right in what he did?

HydeRoad

Circle Line had a different fare system. A €2 flat fare, and a €1 short fare. There were just six stages, Celbridge, Lucan, Palmerstown, Heuston, Ballsbridge and Nutgrove. Travel between two stages was €1, travel anything over two stages was €2. It meant in some cases they were dearer than Dublin Bus, and in some cases cheaper. In the interests of simplicity for both customers and staff it was a great system. Alas, the gremlins got in, and by order of somebody or other, the fares crept up, and it became €1.20, and €2.20, and later a bit more. That goosed the idea of a simple one coin fare, but at least the simplified stage structure could be maintained.

Drivers were expected to check for the correct fare, but with the simplicity of the stage structure, it was instantly ascertainable. Under no circumstances were drivers to be aggressive or rude with passengers, propriety was upheld at all times. If a driver was deliberately rude to customers, there was a simple and distinct disciplinary procedure, and ultimately, sacking.

Good manners cost nothing, and customers should be treated as that, customers. A word you seldom hear with Dublin Bus, where some of the drivers still refer to them as the 'skulls.' It would be nice if drivers could encourage repeat business from their customers. That's how it works by necessity in the private sector. It would be nice then, too, if there was an established and enforced back up from the company, i.e. inspectors, when a difficulty arises. The driver should be simply that, a professionally trained driver, and not some kind of self appointed bouncer. There is a professional way to deal with miscreants, a discretionary way, and a downright uncouth way. Which two promote the image of the company?

Carawaystick

shltter wrote: »

Is it for the benefit of the passengers to allow a minority to abuse the system and evade their fare surely all this does is increase the amount that the state must subsidise the operations.

What exactly is published that is at odds with the bye laws

.

I'd say these two pages
http://www.dublinbus.ie/home/how_to_use_the_bus.asp
http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/howToUseASmartCard.asp

and byelaw 16 (a) you quoted earlier conflict. There is no clear instruction on either of these two pages to inform the driver of your destination.
If everyone boarding a bus using prepaid tickets informed the driver, then boarding time would be increased. Also people who cannot speak would be prevented from using the bus.

I don't believe there is any link between the subvention and the amount of fare evasion. The cost of the drivers actions as outlined and accepted here would easily cost more than EUR0.2
I'd say it is probably better to provide a fast efficient service and allow a minority evade fares, than implement a system which in slow and inefficient and no fare evasion occurs. It would be even better if a fast efficient system with a simple obvious fare structure which would greatly reduce any "accidental" underpayment of fares to occur.


Alek has pointed out

However any cash paying passenger should bear in mind the stricture contained in the Points of Law page of the Timetable.

Each passenger on boarding a bus shall:
Ensure that he/she has been issued with a valid ticket

again, if every passenger paying cash stopped to ensure this before leaving the doorway, boarding would be delayed. You could even argue if you were to take this to the extreme, that a person could look up Dublin Bus's website to see what the stages for their journey were.

Now I accept Dublin bus are contrained by Noel Dempsey and Julie O'Neill's Department from introducing a zone or flat fare, but surely every bus stop could list the fares and distance you can travel for a fare for the busses that serve them. This would reduce "accidentally" paying less than the correct fare.


Lastly, and a bit off topic, for the DB drivers, how many 70cent shopper fares have ye sold? recently or ever? these seem to be the least widely advertised fares. And I don't think there's prepaid ticket versions of them.

KC61

Carawaystick wrote: »

Now I accept Dublin bus are contrained by Noel Dempsey and Julie O'Neill's Department from introducing a zone or flat fare, but surely every bus stop could list the fares and distance you can travel for a fare for the busses that serve them. This would reduce "accidentally" paying less than the correct fare.

At most bus shelters there is now a panel showing the timetables for the routes serving that bus stop with the stages listed, and the fares displayed for the various staged journeys, with instructions on how to calculate the fare.

dub_commuter

KC61 wrote: »

At most bus shelters there is now a panel showing the timetables for the routes serving that bus stop with the stages listed, and the fares displayed for the various staged journeys, with instructions on how to calculate the fare.

All very well and good, but when the vast majority of Dublin Bus stops do not have shelters, and in most cases not even timetables, which is particularly apparent on the North Side of the Capital. The southside and City Centre are better in this regard.

AlekSmart

Whilst Carawaystick is correct to point out the lack of explicit guidance available online,there is substantial stuff in printed form.

Without actually accquiring from head office a copy of the Dublin Bus Bye-Laws (SI394/1996) the most readily available summary is contained at the back of the current printed timetable (Page 237-239)

The checking of one`s ticket as it`s issued takes a mere glance to ascertain the from and to stops...remember it`s only in case of a discrepancy that delay creeps in

Herein can be found the relevant information for cash fare transactions.

The electronic transactions,either mag-stripe or contactless are somewhat different as in the main they are not fare-stage based.
Some idea of the underlying corporate thinking on the issue can be found in the fact that BAC now only offers 2 denominations of 2-easy tickets at €1.05 and €1.50.

The most that the company can do without incurring the wrath of Julie `n Noel is to offer inducements such as non-consecutive day useage of Rambler Tickets and the single card 10 journey Travel 90.

I have found that most of my "Serious" regular bus commuters have either gone over to a Taxsaver Ticket (Easily the most cost effective mathod of Public Transport payment if it available) or they now use Ramblers or T90`s.

Once again I cannot state enough that these Customers SHOULD be the focus of the companys policy as they are demonstrating a committment to maintaining efficiency and keeping some form of fluidity in the service.

However,time after time these people`s good intentions are frustrated by those who simply do not subscribe to efficiency in any way shape or form and whose actions will repeatedly delay an already slow service.

Oddly enough one tends to notice how a persons attitudes can and suddenly do change.
The committed rooter and fumbler will have no problem spending up to a minute displaying their black art to the Driver.
That display and its repercussions on the other passengers "rights" is then rapidly forgotten once the Rooter sits down and begins to share observations re the awful delays on the Bus Service etc etc.

I am always greatful when one of my regular commuters from Ranelagh is aboard as this jolly old gentleman will sit downstairs and encourage those tawdry folks with some spirited advice.....

"Oh come along now,some of us want to get into town"

"Oh Dear could you not have counted your money at the stop....come along now hurry it along"

This little bit of pro-active stewarding is always welcome as it allows me to simply smile and nod towards the gent in silent agreement...but it REALLY does get up the noses of the eternally unready

As Hyde Road`s post illustrates,its not even a Public/Private issue it`s a human nature one.
Just as the former Circle Line`s "small is friendly" policy worked well for them,so too did it begin to falter as the company expanded its service and it`s thinking.
There is a world of difference structurally and motivationally in a business employing 50 and one with 3,000 souls struggling to understand the company motto

One point I am in total agreement with is the following.....

but surely every bus stop could list the fares and distance you can travel for a fare for the busses that serve them.

Sadly,whilst this has been raised internally on regular occasions we have had no response as the awful ramifications are considered in depth by a coven of horn-headed deities :eek:

I think I`ll go explore the Phillipines instead.... :pac:

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

All very well and good, but when the vast majority of Dublin Bus stops do not have shelters, and in most cases not even timetables, which is particularly apparent on the North Side of the Capital. The southside and City Centre are better in this regard.

True, but the new style bus stops that are slowly being rolled out do actually show how far you can travel on each route for each fare - reference the stops on O'Connell Street.

mickoneill30

dub_commuter wrote: »

All very well and good, but when the vast majority of Dublin Bus stops do not have shelters, and in most cases not even timetables, which is particularly apparent on the North Side of the Capital. The southside and City Centre are better in this regard.

Why not ask the driver? If I don't travel a route frequently enough to know the fare the driver generally knows where he's going and how much it costs.

You can guess the fare but then it's your problem if you guess too low and get caught.

If you do travel a route frequently (i.e. more than once, you know for future reference when you've asked him / her).

The original posters problem was that he asked for the wrong fare. If he hopped on the bus and said his destination then he's transferring the responsibility of calculating the fare to the driver.

In$omniac

Whether the driver was right or wrong in pulling you up over this, he handled it extremely badly there was no need for ignorance, if you had've told him to fcuk off or got really abusive, then maybe I could understand why he turned on the defensive/offensive.

Send as many emails, make as many phone calls as need be until you get someone who will follow this up, my friend is an inspector and I just rang him there now he said this guy will get a warning, but you will need witnesses, if any further action is to be taken.
Best of luck with it.

spareman

Unregistered. wrote: »

Yes, both via email (couldn’t get through on phone) last Thursday (the day it happened), then by phone on Friday.
I was given the usual, "we'll pass it on to the area manager" on the email.
The guy on the phone, after hearing the situation kept re-iterating that "he was just sticking to the book, the fare should have been 1.70" even though I was making a complaint about the driver’s attitude and behaviour through the situation. Found the phone call really frustrating, I wanted to complain about the guy who I was actually talking to.

Ok fair enough your making a complaint about the bus driver's behaviour, But you still had no valid ticket to travel any further, Look if I walk into a shop pick up a Herald €1.20, hand over a euro and walk out of the shop, do you think the shop keeper's behaviour would be any less than the bus driver's?
Could I complain that I was abused by the shopkeeper after it?
Do you see how stupid this looks yet?

All your doing here is giving opportunity to the bus critics to report on the latest CSO figures and give there ideas for an improved service, fare structure, route and timetable information etc etc etc.
Im not saying all bus driver's are a perfect example, your going to get bad apples everywhere, but I do believe they are in a minority.

You wanted to complain about the bus driver's behaviour because he caught you out.
You want to complain about the guy on the phone because he couldn't understand why you wanted to complain.

YOU DID NOT HAVE A VALID TICKET TO TRAVEL.
Therefore I believe you have no grounds to complain, you should not have been on the bus.

I mean your not the only one who does it, your just unlucky the driver decided to enforce the bye laws that day, for whatever reason (which your clearly not telling us as it would ruin your rant) he remembered you getting on the bus.

If I walked into a pub and underpaid for my drink I wouldn't expect the barman to display his great customer service skills to me.
As a bus driver I will make an effort to be nice and friendly to my passengers, Im not going to be nice and friendly to passengers who are intent on breaking the bus bye laws.

What started out as a complaint about a bus driver has decended into a full scale attack on every bus driver in the city, well 97% of us. Also management, fares, timetable info, routes etc. It makes me laugh, people giving out because a fare evader was caught, yet these are the same people who regularly have a pop at the amount of subvention Dublin bus recieve.

antoinolachtnai

meanmachine3 wrote: »

now over the last few days i was plodding away, the bus was fairly empty as in only about 6 passengers on, this guy gets on has a ticket in his hand and as i'm moving off walks past both validators. i looked at my ticket equipment to see if he used his ticket and to see what type of ticket he had. oh yes boys and girls even though we might not see what type of ticket you have, it does show up on our machines but getting back to my main point. i pulled into the next stop went upstairs asked this guy for his ticket went down to the smartcard reader with his ticket and lord and behold it used up one of his days. the guy hadn't even bothered to validate his ticket and when i said it to him his answer was "i didn't know i had to do that" . these poor passengers were delayed by about 3-4 minutes.
now my question to you folks is
was he fare evading or was it a genuine mistake?

I'd say he was evading the fare, but you wouldn't be able to prove it in Court.

That is the whole reason why the standard fare was introduced. It doesn't require the same level of proof.

and do you think i was right in confronting him over his ticket or should i have just let him travel for free just because i had a few passengers

I think myself that you should have hit him with a EUR 50 fine, or at the very least, a written warning when he failed to produce a ticket. (You may not have the facility to do that.)

There is a big difference between what you did and what the OP's driver did.

dub_commuter

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Why not ask the driver? If I don't travel a route frequently enough to know the fare the driver generally knows where he's going and how much it costs.

Unfortunately some of the drivers are not friendly enough. And here lies that problem. There are several routes I have done this on and the drivers have been more than helpful about it. And that is how they all should be.

However upon boarding three different routes in the last few months asking if a bus goes to a particular place, or a particular fare, they have said "No, the bus does not go there" when it actually does as I later find out or "Why do you ask me? I'm not a timetable" and "If you want information, don't ask me, I just drive the bus"

Unfortunately this blights many parts of Dublin Bus. As I said previously there are some wonderful drivers in Dublin Bus, and they really do care about their customers and see it as a public service and actually like their job as they like working with people and are more than helpful and can hold a conversation. And there are others, who call the passengers skulls, say as little as possible and even one who once said to me "A Happy bus is an empty bus" these let the company down.

shltter

Unregistered. wrote: »

Actually, maybe it's worth pointing this out, as to what "type of bus driver he was" -

Do you know when two buses come, and the one behind tries to sneak off? Well he was on of them drivers!

*I am really finicky about buses, e.g, if two buses come, i get on the one with least amount of people, or if an old one and a new one come together, I have to get on the new one. etc..*
So @ Pearse Street, two buses came at once, and i ran down to get this one before he overtook the first one. I was the only person to get on there, but it only had a few people on at this stage.
However, passengers @ Trinity College stop were not so lucky! He thought his bus was out of view and overtook the bus in front, even though there were passengers coming down to get it!!!!
he was like that a most if the stops, not pulling in until he had to, almost trying to avoid picking people up.

And did i mention it was raining yesterday?

See did you ever stop to think that in doing that you held up the second bus for NO reason
You could have traveled on the first bus but you decided that wasn't good enough for you.
BTW it is not sneaking off it is working the road together he clears that stop the next one is cleared by the second bus rather than both buses being held up at each stop they only stop half the time.
If people at a stop want both buses then they both stop (as the 56A did for you) but having stopped the bus you paid a fare that would only take you as far as you could have traveled on the other bus.

The lazy way is to sit behind the bus in front and let that one carry the load this guy was trying to speed things up and get people home as quickly as possible.
But that didn't suit you No you want to slow everything down stop a bus you don't need to stop make the journey time longer for the rest of the passengers and then you have the bare faced cheek to not even bother paying your correct fare.

Fair play to the driver on the 56A I would have done the exact same thing to you.
Next time use your head and if you insist on stopping a bus for no apparent reason ( it looks newer you like the ads on the side)make sure you have the right fare.

Ckal

I've given up on the buses in Dublin. I know some of the drivers are nice, but I'm sick of getting my head bitten off when I ask what the fare is.

I just walk now...

dfx-

shltter wrote: »

See did you ever stop to think that in doing that you held up the second bus for NO reason
You could have traveled on the first bus but you decided that wasn't good enough for you.
BTW it is not sneaking off it is working the road together he clears that stop the next one is cleared by the second bus rather than both buses being held up at each stop they only stop half the time.
If people at a stop want both buses then they both stop (as the 56A did for you) but having stopped the bus you paid a fare that would only take you as far as you could have traveled on the other bus.

The lazy way is to sit behind the bus in front and let that one carry the load this guy was trying to speed things up and get people home as quickly as possible.
But that didn't suit you No you want to slow everything down stop a bus you don't need to stop make the journey time longer for the rest of the passengers and then you have the bare faced cheek to not even bother paying your correct fare.

Fair play to the driver on the 56A I would have done the exact same thing to you.
Next time use your head and if you insist on stopping a bus for no apparent reason ( it looks newer you like the ads on the side)make sure you have the right fare.

I really can't believe that tripe is being used as some kind of karma for being thrown off. What bus he stops has nothing to do with it. FFS.

How's about the numerous times outside Pearse Station, a 77 or 77A has been at the stop and my 56A which I need beyond Walkinstown decides to do this crap and skip stops...leaving three passengers waiting another 35 minutes for the next one or hoping it turns up?

shltter

dfx- wrote: »

I really can't believe that tripe is being used as karma for being thrown off. What bus he stops has nothing to do with it. FFS.

How's about the numerous times outside Pearse Station, a 77 or 77A has been at the stop and my 56A which I need beyond Walkinstown decides to do this crap and skip stops...leaving three passengers waiting another 35 minutes for the next one or hoping it turns up?

Utter rubbish.

The reason for being thrown off is because he did not pay the correct fare what brought it to the drivers attention was he stopped the bus when one at the stop would take him to the same place for that fare thus slowing 2 buses because he is "finicky". He is entitled to get on which ever bus he wants but he is only entitled to stay as long as his fare is valid.

If you signal the bus clearly and in good time it should stop end of story however if there is room on the 77 or 77a and you were not travelling past walkinstown then you should let the bus go as it will speed up everyones journey including your own.

If you do signal the bus and stop it for no good reason when a bus that could take you is already stopped then make sure you pay the correct fare.