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Should it be okay to be allowed make unsubstantiated accusations against another team

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    #32
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Oh jesus lads, lets not get too excited here, you do remember the good times when the soccer forum was closed?

    I have a solution create a new sub forum for LOI and let all the LOI fans post there and mod it themselves :D


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    #33
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    stovelid wrote: »
    Not just Liverpool and United.

    As pointed out already, people are definitely allowed to derail genuine LOI threads, with the usual armchair advice, generalizations, and subtle trolling, without censure.

    "it's not trolling it's 'opinion'" is the usual line trotted out about this


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    #34
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Villain wrote: »
    Oh jesus lads, lets not get too excited here, you do remember the good times when the soccer forum was closed?

    I have a solution create a new sub forum for LOI and let all the LOI fans post there and mod it themselves :D

    There would be no issue if that section of posters wasn't ignored by the mods, while other sections of the users are pandered to and handled with kid gloves.

    Since the disappearance of the only "LoI-minded" moderator, it has gone downhill, imo.

    He was never replaced.


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    #35
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Des wrote: »
    So.

    If you assert that this is the case, why then were my reported posts and PMs about the LoI threads roundly ignored?

    Thats the key here Dub13. You can profess otherwise, but complaints made about abuse towords LoI and Celtic fans are treated differently to ones made about certain English clubs.

    Do you stand over one of the mods telling me that he "didn't give a crap that a post was racist" and not remove it? And then I get a two week ban for responding to abuse with the phrase ManUre? Where is the consistancy in that?


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    #36
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Villain wrote: »
    Oh jesus lads, lets not get too excited here, you do remember the good times when the soccer forum was closed?

    I have a solution create a new sub forum for LOI and let all the LOI fans post there and mod it themselves :D

    not a bad idea, but it being boards.ie, its the foreign football that should get the subforum.... ;)


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    #37
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Very bad idea.

    It's bad enough that the EPL-fanbois cry at the thought of an LoI thread, get away with trolling it and then get pandered to by the mods.

    No.

    Why should there be a sub forum?


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    #38
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Right don't have a sub forum, accept what the mods do or don't do and suck it up then.


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    #39
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Villain wrote: »
    Right don't have a sub forum, accept what the mods do or don't do and suck it up then.

    Put up with bad moderation?

    Why?


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    #40
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Des wrote: »
    Put up with bad moderation?

    Why?
    Its boards.ie you have the choice to post and accept what happens or not to post, this is not a democracy, trust me I know ;)


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    #41
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Villain wrote: »
    Right don't have a sub forum, accept what the mods do or don't do and suck it up then.

    People are right to get annoyed at your suggestion, even if you meant it in good faith. Why should the LOI threads be marginalized on an Irish forum? Strangely enough, LOI threads actually need more moderation because of contributions from non-LOI fans. There is usually far more camaraderie between (even rival) LOI fans than other factions.


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    #42
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    stovelid wrote: »
    People are right to get annoyed at your suggestion, even if you meant it in good faith. Why should the LOI threads be marginalized on an Irish forum? Strangely enough, LOI threads actually need more moderation because of contributions from non-LOI fans. There is usually far more camaraderie between (even rival) LOI fans than other factions.
    Make LOI the main forum so and have a sub forum for PL, I really don't mind which is the sub forum


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    #43
    KevIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 39,568 ✭✭✭✭KevIRL


    Maximilian wrote: »
    I find it amazing that the sports forums generate so many feedback threads.

    I mean there's been how many Pro-Wrestling ones? Seriously how is it even possible to take that so seriously?

    Pro-Wrestling? Sport? hmmmmmm


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    #44
    KevIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 39,568 ✭✭✭✭KevIRL


    Very well made point Des.

    I believe I reported something similar from an LOI thread and nothing seemed to happen about it. I hope this thread can have some reasonable discussion and not descend into a feedback slopfest.

    Oh FWIW, I believe the sub-forum idea to be unneccessary


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    #45
    Maximilian
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 5,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Maximilian


    Des wrote: »
    I find it amazing that people who have nothing to do with the discussion constantly feel the need stick their oar in to feedback threads, trying to derail them.

    That was a little nasty. I wasn't trying to de-rail anything. Get up on the wrong side of the bed?


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    #46
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    KevIRL wrote: »
    Very well made point Des.

    Pity it was ignored and escalated to a CMod then, without any discourse from the moderators in between.

    I tried to go the PM route with this, the first step to resolve issues, but I was ignored.

    When I asked the same questions of the sports CMod I was fobbed off with "we're looking at these issues".

    And nothing else.

    I didn't want to go the "feedback route", but I'm afraid I've been forced into it.

    I don't feel "Helpdesk" would be helpful here, as everyone who has issues can't contribute on the same thread.


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    #47
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Maximilian wrote: »
    That was a little nasty. I wasn't trying to de-rail anything. Get up on the wrong side of the bed?

    I do apologise.

    It's just that with every feedback thread about soccer there are smartarses who can't help themselves.

    If you aren't one of them, then I'm sorry for being nasty to you.


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    #48
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Also, it would be nice if the mods didn't ignore my questions, again, because they "aren't related" to the name of the thread.

    As I have seen happen in the past.


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    #49
    Dub13
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dub13


    Des wrote: »
    Slipped through the net, or ignored like all the other reported posts from LoI threads?

    I'm going to copy my original PM to all the Soccer Mods, from 2 weeks ago, in this thread, maybe I'll get some answers after being stonewalled by the Mods, and the Sports CMod.

    Your PM has been and is still been discussed by the Soccer mods and the CMod,to say it was ignored/stonewalled is simply not true.

    Des wrote: »
    There would be no issue if that section of posters wasn't ignored by the mods, while other sections of the users are pandered to and handled with kid gloves.

    Since the disappearance of the only "LoI-minded" moderator, it has gone downhill, imo.

    He was never replaced.


    We deal with all reported posts the same,can anybody show clear cut examples of different treatments to different sets of fans..?I personally try to deal with each situation on its own merits.


    I can only speak for myself but I would have no problems with a 'LOI firenidley mod' been apointed.

    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Thats the key here Dub13. You can profess otherwise, but complaints made about abuse towords LoI and Celtic fans are treated differently to ones made about certain English clubs.

    As I said I don't think this is the case,a few of you seem to think it is an issue but as I said I have not seen any evidence of this.
    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Do you stand over one of the mods telling me that he "didn't give a crap that a post was racist" and not remove it? And then I get a two week ban for responding to abuse with the phrase ManUre? Where is the consistancy in that?

    Without knowing the context of the comment I would not like to say to much but it does not seem like a productive comment.


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    #50
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Dub13 wrote: »
    Your PM has been and is still been discussed by the Soccer mods and the CMod,to say it was ignored/stonewalled is simply not true.

    Then why was it ignored? Not one mod even acknowledged receipt of it.

    Next thing I know, the CMod is involved, and I'm getting banned for back seat modding (just to note, I have no issue with the ban, I WAS back seat modding, but with, imo, good reason. Nobody has been "front seat modding" either).


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    #51
    Dub13
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dub13


    Des wrote: »
    Then why was it ignored? Not one mod even acknowledged receipt of it.

    Next thing I know, the CMod is involved, and I'm getting banned for back seat modding (just to note, I have no issue with the ban, I WAS back seat modding, but with, imo, good reason. Nobody has been "front seat modding" either).

    I just had a re read of the thread and one of the Soccer Mods has a comment 'PM sent' 10-11-2008, 15:40.

    My assumption was this PM was to deal with 2 things your PM and then the back seat modding which produced the ban.I cant speak for all the soccer mods but that was my assumption.


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    #52
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    That PM didn't address my PM in any way, shape or form.

    And here is my reply to it (I'm not reproducing any PMs received by me)

    I was under the impression that the channel of complaints was

    Report Posts
    PM Mods
    PM CMods
    PM Smod
    Helpdesk/Feedback

    Now, last week I PMd each active mod of the Soccer forum with my grievance, and received no reply. I was in the process of giving it a reasonable time in which to expect an answer to this PM before taking it to the next step of asking the CMod to intervene, while continuing to report posts. I have included the full and complete text of that PM in this PM for the attention of the CMod.

    I will continue to report posts which I feel are in contravention of the charter, as is specified in the forum charter, and I will, as requested, desist from making comments in my reports.

    Here is the PM I sent to the Soccer Mods, which has been roundly ignored. I do realise that the post I highlighted in the PM was dealt with. But I feel it was only sanctioned as a result of this PM, and not as a result of the Reported Post fucntion, as the infraction was placed on the post after I sent the PM, which was circa a week after I re    ported same.


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    #53
    Thanx 4 The Fish
    Registered Users Posts: 15,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Thanx 4 The Fish


    Des we have a problem here. You report posts that in the most case express an opinion that you do not like. You report quite a lot of these and we look at them and then take no action as in the most case they are not in breach of the charter, just that they say something you do not like. We have missed one it seems and that may be down to us not paying as much attention to your reported posts any more (Boy who cried wolf anyone) or we just missed it. This goes a little further though des because you often express unpopular opinions about the Irish national team and they are reported. You do not receive a ban for the same reason that the posts you report do not receive a ban. They are not in breach of the charter.

    As for why we went to a Cmod without warning you, we did not, a Cmod saw our discussions and pmed you. TBH once you said this "and I will be going to the Cmod or higher if something is not sorted out" I do not think that had we involved a Cmod we would have been in the wrong.


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    #54
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    Just to clairfy we walk a fine line between telling EPL fans to "suck it up" when their teams are criticized and actually go after those trolling. It's a judgement call on our part and I like to think we get most of it right. People seem happy enough.

    I can recall several threads that have turned into EPL vs LoI/SPL threads, or indeed LoI vs SPL threads and the instigators are often some of the people complaining about being trolled.

    As T4TF suggested, when posters take every opportunity to blast Roy Keane or Sunderland or the Irish national team and THEN cry foul when someone blasts something they don't like, we review it.

    We discussed your PM and in fact, I believe we are still discussing the merits of it, but one thing if for sure, when we apply a rule, we apply it across the forum, not just to a team.


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    #55
    RuggieBear
    Registered Users Posts: 17,958 ✭✭✭✭RuggieBear


    we're looking at these issues


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    #56
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Here are seme reported posts from the Soccer Forum in the last month or so. Some by me, some by others, and the outcome of each report (apologies, the non-mod users will not be able to click the links)

    Also, T4TF, you claim that I
    you often express unpopular opinions about the Irish national team and they are reported.

    I can find no such reports in the same timeframe, I would like you to back that up please.

    anyway...

    Reported post
    user is abusive
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055416326

    reported post
    user is abusive toward Boardeaux (in fairness something was done here)
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055416282

    reported post
    abuse, also reported by others, something done
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055415717

    reported post
    "petition to scrap the LoI" is a constructive opinion, and not trolling, seemingly
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055415756

    reported post
    non-LoI related, abuse to a manager, don't know if anything was done, reported by others
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055415751

    reported post, not by me
    Calling for the scrapping of the league is a trolling post
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055414579
    we are then told

    reported post, me being reported for being "rude"
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055413929
    no sanction

    reported post, trolling, imo
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055413704
    no sanction, I believe

    reported post, user calls LoI fans an "irrelevent minority, this is trolling
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055409084
    no sanction

    reported post, by myself and one other user, about an EPL player
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055404656
    surprise surprise, a yellow card infraction is applied

    reported post, user says he "hopes Shels go to the wall" in a thread about Celtic
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055403411
    no sanction - guaranteed if it was another user saying he hoped Liverpool or Manchester went to the wall a sanction would have been forthcoming from the relevent mod(s)

    reported post using the word "huns" as a derogatory term against Rangers
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055390738
    no sanction

    reported post by ME, user brings up a "liverpool are murderers" point
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055373530
    surprise surprise - red card infraction


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    #57
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »
    We have missed one it seems and that may be down to us not paying as much attention to your reported posts any more (Boy who cried wolf anyone) or we just missed it.

    Jesus.

    No back seat modding, report the posts please.

    Don't report too many mind, we mightn't pay attention to them if you do.

    Unbelieveable.


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    #58
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    Des wrote: »
    Reported post
    I'm not going to get into the habit of this but in this one instance

    1. Attacked the post and post trend, not the user. Borderline maybe, but not worthy of offical sanction.
    2. Dealt with.
    3. Dealt with.
    4. In reference to external source article, expressing opinion through humor, not trolling.
    5. An opinion isn't trolling.
    6. I didn't see anything rude about it.
    7. "in your opinion" - You responded in kind. His post was rude, but no reason to sanction.
    8. Sarcasm - not worthy of sanction.
    9. Dealt with - a yellow card infraction counts towards a forum ban.
    10. He was obviously joking in this case and not being malicious.
    11. That was probably missed.
    12. The red card would by issued here for any offence due to the ",ultiple offence" system we have in place.

    So there is 1 out of 12 here that we missed.

    Just to be clear, I'm giving my reasoning for the sake of it. Des's judgement on what is and isn't trolling or requires sanction is merely his opinion. It is the soccer mod's opinion that counts.

    I'm pretty sure that if I wanted to search through old posts (I can think of one or two key search terms - Sunderland and Staunton at a guess) I could come up with posts by Des that would make that list were Des totally objective about it. Phrases like "I hope Ireland lose" on an Irish soccer forum are by your reasoning, outright trolling and should have been sanctioned.

    As for a LoI mod, I don't see a need for another mod right now and if we did, we wouldn't appoint based on demographs. We certainly won't be appointing someone for the sake of it, especially when we haven't identified anyone suitable, which right now, we haven't. Conversely, if a good candidate were to appear, their team affiliation would not be considered important.


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    #59
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    GuanYin wrote: »
    I'm not going to get into the habit of this but in this one instance

    ok so, fair enough.
    GuanYin wrote: »
    Des's judgement on what is and isn't trolling or requires sanction is merely his opinion. It is the soccer mod's opinion that counts.
    Of course it is, and I'm not trying to undermine anyone here, just trying to get a little perspective.
    GuanYin wrote: »
    were Des totally objective about it.
    I was being.

    I even included a post of mine up in that list. The ONLY post of mine that was reported in the time frame I looked at, which, incidentally, included Ireland, and also Sunderland, match days.

    Not one other of my hundreds of posts were reported.

    GuanYin wrote: »
    Phrases like "I hope Ireland lose" on an Irish soccer forum are by your reasoning, outright trolling and should have been sanctioned.
    I've just done a search on the soccer forum, using "hope Ireland lose" paired with my username as the searchable items.

    No results.

    :)

    I never troll.

    I may give unpopular opinion, but so what? I always back up my arguments, and on the few occasions where I got abusive I was goaded into it, took my ban and didn't complain about it.

    What these other people are doing, in both the LoI and original Celtic argument of this thread, is posting stuff like

    "the loi should be wound up" or "celtic are all protestant hating bigots"-

    without posting reason or argument, in a clear attempt at winding up a proportion of the users. And then when called out on it, are nowhere to be seen, having created a nice little shítstorm for themselves.

    Can you not see the difference?

    GuanYin wrote: »
    As for a LoI mod,

    it is baldy needed.

    the Liverpool/Manchester mods know the ground when it comes to the EPL and that, but can't understand the intricacies of the LoI. They don't follow or care about it.
    GuanYin wrote: »
    I don't see a need for another mod right now
    Well, excuse me, but I beg to differ.

    For a while now actual bone fide reported posts, intances of abuse and such, have been left to fester for hours before a mod becomes active.

    There were always five "soccer" mods, now there are just four.

    Why?
    GuanYin wrote: »
    their team affiliation would not be considered important.
    lol,so it just so happens that the two most recent people appointed to the modship support Manchester and Liverpool, yeah?

    That at the time when the Liverpool posters were kicking off they got themselves a nice new mod, who just happens to support Liverpool.

    I don't buy it. Seriously.

    And again.

    Is this the opinion of all the mods, or just t4tf?
    We have missed one it seems and that may be down to us not paying as much attention to your reported posts any more

    And if so, what can I do about this?

    report less posts?

    back seat mod?

    what?

    how can a mod say that?

    should each reported post not be judged on merit?

    I mean, the charter says to use the function.

    :rolleyes:


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    #60
    Thanx 4 The Fish
    Registered Users Posts: 15,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Thanx 4 The Fish


    You yourself have admitted to back seat modding in those reported posts Des and you took your ban like a man etc etc, do you not see why we would be less inclined to spend as much time on your reports?

    The fact that you say you never troll (with or without) a smilie is astonishing btw.


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    #61
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »
    You yourself have admitted to back seat modding in those reported posts Des and you took your ban like a man etc etc, do you not see why we would be less inclined to spend as much time on your reports?

    The fact that you say you never troll (with or without) a smilie is astonishing btw.
    Aw come on now, I don't know the ins and outs of the situation but isn't reported posts the way to go when you think moderation needs a nudge? Back seat modding is a whole different ball game. That's when you know / believe that the mods are falling down on the job and you proceed to try and embarass them in public. Des didn't do that, he played by the rules. Maybe that's where he went wrong.


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