Zimbabwe - What can be done??

Duzzie

The latest news on Zimbabwe is not good. I'm finding it hard to see a way forward. Mugabe is isolating the country more and more and seems to oblivious to the suffering of his people.

The power sharing talks are stalled because mugabe refuses to cede any real power to the MDC and he looks likely to name his own government

South Africa are cutting food aid to Zimbabwe as a direct result of the failure of the power sharing talks

Cholera is becoming a serious problem in urban areas showing a breakdown of the countries infrastructure, a country that was once a showcase for Southern Africa

The countries health system, once one of the best in Africa, is in tatters

And now two highly respected senior international figures are refused visas to carry out a humanitarian visit to the country

Mugabe is riding roughshot over the international community whilst allowing his people to starve. I'm glad to see that South Africa are starting to take a harder line but unfortunately it is probably too little, too late. I'm finding it very hard to see where things can go from here.

Mugabe has shown that he has no interest in real power sharing and only wants to sideline the MDC in the same way he did th Joshua Nkomo and ZAPU in the 80s. Just when I think that things cant get any worse, they do. I am amazed that the people of Zimbabwe swallow the propoganda that the state owned media put out and that they aren't rising up against him.

The country is in tatters, the economy is wrecked, the agriculture and tourism sectors are wrecked, there is no effective health service and people are starving and dying. How can things get any worse???

Personally I dont see where the country can go under the current regime.It is so sad to see a beautiful country which was once the envy of much of Africa in such a sorry state.

marcsignal

i think the sudden/rather abrupt demise of Robert Mugabe (assassination) would work wonders for the situation personally.

brianthebard

I think an end of western invention allowing the country to make its own course would work wonders...

Duzzie

marcsignal wrote: »

i think the sudden/rather abrupt demise of Robert Mugabe (assassination) would work wonders for the situation personally.

Much as I would like to see that happen, I dont think that would help matters much. The problem is as much his cronies as it is him. His cronies are up to their necks in it and know that if they lose power, they'll be investigated and charged with crimes against humanity. They will do all that they can to keep in power with or without Mugabe. The problem doesnt stop at Mugabe unfortunately.

Duzzie

brianthebard wrote: »

I think an end of western invention allowing the country to make its own course would work wonders...

Yet they will still come to Europe, America and the UN with their begging bowls looking for help to feed their people. How about eastern intervention by the Chinese and Russians?? There would be an even bigger humanitarian disaster if all western aid (intervention) stopped in Africa and they were left to fend for themselves. The politicians would have to find other ways to line their pockets rather than syphening off from foreign aid.

todolist

Ah the good old days when Ian Smith was Prime Minister.It was a glorious time for Rhodesia.

Nodin

Duzzie wrote: »

Much as I would like to see that happen, I dont think that would help matters much. The problem is as much his cronies as it is him. His cronies are up to their necks in it and know that if they lose power, they'll be investigated and charged with crimes against humanity. They will do all that they can to keep in power with or without Mugabe. The problem doesnt stop at Mugabe unfortunately.

This is quite probably true. However, as they clearly have no regard for any suffering, loss of life or ill consequence outside their own circle, its hard to see what else could be done, save an outbreak of Sudden Demise Syndrome centered on them.

I would add the caveat that such a move would have to come from the Zimbabwean people, and not via outside intervention. Though if a case of rifles and the like did happen to fall into their hands, mysteriously passing customs in some other states, these things happen......

Duzzie

Nodin wrote: »

This is quite probably true. However, as they clearly have no regard for any suffering, loss of life or ill consequence outside their own circle, its hard to see what else could be done, save an outbreak of Sudden Demise Syndrome centered on them.

I would add the caveat that such a move would have to come from the Zimbabwean people, and not via outside intervention. Though if a case of rifles and the like did happen to fall into their hands, mysteriously passing customs in some other states, these things happen......

Agreed. Any uprising has to start from within as an effort to liberate themselves. To be honest, I don't understand why this hasnt already happened. Any civil war would be bloody but unfortunately I dont see a realistic alternative at this stage

brianthebard

Duzzie wrote: »

Agreed. Any uprising has to start from within as an effort to liberate themselves. To be honest, I don't understand why this hasnt already happened. Any civil war would be bloody but unfortunately I dont see a realistic alternative at this stage

You realise the present situation came about after a civil war and the war veterans demanding that land be acquired and given to them?

Nodin

Duzzie wrote: »

Agreed. Any uprising has to start from within as an effort to liberate themselves. To be honest, I don't understand why this hasnt already happened. Any civil war would be bloody but unfortunately I dont see a realistic alternative at this stage

Apparently he slaughtered tens of thousands in the early eighties, and they're absolutely terrified he'd do it again - the basta/rds quite capable. Of course its being stuck between a fear of that, and being slowly strangled.

Nodin

brianthebard wrote: »

You realise the present situation came about after a civil war and the war veterans demanding that land be acquired and given to them?

Thats what Mugabe claimed. However most of the land seems to have gone to his inner circle, rather than the veterans of the independence struggle.

Duzzie

brianthebard wrote: »

You realise the present situation came about after a civil war and the war veterans demanding that land be acquired and given to them?

I am well aware of the history of the country and the land issue. I am also well aware that the vast majority of the farms that were re-allocated were not redistributed to the local farmers, as agreed under the Lancaster House agreement, but were given lock stock and barrell to political cronies which is why the UK and USA refused to contribute to the cost of the land redistribution also agreed under the Lancaster House Agreement. Most political cronies have several farms thanks to the land redistribution.

I am also well aware of the fact that the vast majority of the people currently calling themselves war veterans are too young to have been involved in the civil war. They are no more than hired thugs but they go under the name of war veterens to give themselve some sort of credibility and to invoke fear amongst the general population.

brianthebard

Nodin wrote: »

Thats what Mugabe claimed. However most of the land seems to have gone to his inner circle, rather than the veterans of the independence struggle.

Sure, but that's not the point.

Nodin

brianthebard wrote: »

Sure, but that's not the point.

might I then inquire what the point is?

LaMer

Sanctions won't work, aides of Mugabe have constantly said "We'll sit in the dark."

Any assassination of Mugabe would bring total chaos, the vacuum of power would lead to a General or some other big man seizing power and reprisals on a good proportion of the population.

he South Africans are key, they're reluctant to take a harder line because they don't want to be landed with massive influxes of refugees with the xenophobic mood of the nation. Quiet Diplomacy is bringing small concessions, the Saffies need to work on this, step it up.

The West needs to take note that THEY ARE THE ENEMIES, their criticism means nothing to Mugabe an his yes-men. They're just pushing him against the wall, which is narrowing SA's options.

Duzzie

Nodin wrote: »

Apparently he slaughtered tens of thousands in the early eighties, and they're absolutely terrified he'd do it again - the basta/rds quite capable. Of course its being stuck between a fear of that, and being slowly strangled.

That is correct. Mugabe sent the North Korean trained 5th Brigade into Matabeleland, the stronghold of the then ZAPU opposition, not once but twice and effectively whipped out any pollitical opposition and killing thousands of civilians

http://www.sokwanele.com/pdfs/BTS.pdf

Denis Irwin

Carter and Annan refused entry into Zimbabwe:

Former US president Jimmy Carter and ex-UN secretary general Kofi Annan have been refused entry to Zimbabwe, forcing them to cancel their planned trip.

The pair have said their visa applications for the trip were turned down.
"We had to cancel our visit because the government made it very clear that it will not co-operate," Mr Annan told a press conference in Johannesburg.
Mr Carter added: "Our purpose in coming here was never to be involved in the political issues that have been so controversial in the establishment of a new government in Zimbabwe, but only to help with the humanitarian issue and we will continue to do that."
He went on to explain they had submitted their applications "several weeks ago".
But Zimbabwe's ambassador to Washington has since told them they would not be delivered "on time".
The government of President Robert Mugabe "will not permit us to come in and will not cooperate," Mr Carter said.
The two men had been planning the visit with human rights activist Graca Machel, the wife of former South African president Nelson Mandela.
All three people are members of the group known as the Elders, statesmen and women trying to support Zimbabwe in power-sharing talks.
The group are expected to remain in South Africa to continue work on the situation.
Mr Mugabe has long been accused of bringing the country to its knees - the economy is ruined and food and fuel are in short supply.
His coalition government with the opposition has failed to make any major breakthroughs since reaching a stalemate on who should lead which ministries.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Jimmy-Carter-And-Kofi-Annan-Refused-Visas-For-Zimbabwe-And-Cancel-Planned-Trip/Article/200811415159064?lpos=World_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15159064_Jimmy_Carter_And_Kofi_Annan_Refused_Visas_For_Zimbabwe_And_Cancel_Planned_Trip


It'll be interesting to see what stance the Obama administration will take on Zimbabwe seeing as how all Mugbae could say about the Bush administration was that they were 'white imperialists'.

jtb

Its not our problem or concern. I dont know why anyone cares myself ...

Duzzie wrote: »

The latest news on Zimbabwe is not good. I'm finding it hard to see a way forward. Mugabe is isolating the country more and more and seems to oblivious to the suffering of his people.

Denis Irwin

jtb wrote: »

Its not our problem or concern. I dont know why anyone cares myself ...

Really. So we should just forget about Zimbabwe and let hundreds of thousands if not millions of people die and let the country be run into the ground by Mugabe. :rolleyes:

brianthebard

Nodin wrote: »

might I then inquire what the point is?

The point is that the war veterans forced Mugabe to act in the acquisition of land. What happened afterwards is a different matter to what I was referring to.

Nodin

jtb wrote: »

Its not our problem or concern. I dont know why anyone cares myself ...

Because they're people too?

Nodin

brianthebard wrote: »

The point is that the war veterans forced Mugabe to act in the acquisition of land. What happened afterwards is a different matter to what I was referring to.

Ok. However its rather contested as to how much actual pressure there was on Mugabe. There's a view that it essentially originated from the top down as a scheme to justify Roberto and the lads grabbing what they wanted. Land seizures actually only started in 2000 - thered been a buy out scheme since the early 1980's.

brianthebard

Yes I'm aware of that, I'm just going on what I was told by a Zimbabwean guest lecturer last week.

oscarBravo

Nodin wrote: »

Because they're people too?

Yeah, but they're only African people. They're not quite Nigerian, but...

Duzzie

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yeah, but they're only African people. They're not quite Nigerian, but...

Ahh well, if they are "only Africans", lets just nuke the lot of them then no one will have to worry about them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:. Sure the people in the middle east are only Arabs and Jews, lets leave them to it too. Great attitude there. i'd expected better from a moderator of this forum

oscarBravo

Hint: my post may have contained traces of irony.

Duzzie

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hint: my post may have contained traces of irony.

Appologies if your post was intended to be ironic. It doesnt come accross in that way.

genericgoon

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hint: my post may have contained traces of irony.

You forgot to add a :pac: or :rolleyes:. :pac:

oscarBravo

I'm obviously too good at irony. Read my posts in the last few pages of the Pamela Izevbekhai thread to see where I'm coming from.

Duzzie

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm obviously too good at irony. Read my posts in the last few pages of the Pamela Izevbekhai thread to see where I'm coming from.

Fair enough. I'm afraid irony doesn't translate very well into writting. I have heard things like that said too many times, and not in an ironic way.

oscarBravo

Duzzie wrote: »

I have heard things like that said too many times, and not in an ironic way.

Me too. See most of the posts I've replied to in the aforementioned thread.