Declan Kickney

Tim Robbins

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well, you also asked if Kidney can produce the goods, so I'll need help on what you mean by "goods". Goods = attacking rugby yea? It certainly cant mean winning rugby matches anyway, I've figured out that much.

Sorry. I should have been clearer in OP and in my subsequent post 21.
Basically, are we ever going to see attractive Rugby from Kickney. I think his gameplan is putting way too much emphasis on kicking. There were times when our backs, in the last two games our backs should have kept it in the hand and ran. If anything it would wake up the crowd, get them behind them team and we might play a bit better.

I am biased, because I hate kicking in Rugby.

bleg

kidney's gameplans for the autumn internationals:

canada: win well
all blacks: damage limitation, maybe sneak a win
argentina: win at all costs

DaveyGem

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I suspect our backs would have destroyed them if they had been allowed to run with the ball.

I was there myself and definately agree with the atmosphere afterwards (and during the game but this quote is just a bit on the silly side,


When the backs were given a chance (and they were given a chance or two) they showed no sign of breaking the line, with the exception of Bowe's break which resembled a panicking schoolboy in his first game at U13's. And it wasn't down to the lack of talent in the back line, it was because the Argies defended well and smothered our backs, they had a game plan and stuck to it, "don't let the put it through the backs"

Now while i agree that it makes for dull watching, the kicking game served its purpose this time, the only fear is that we start doing it against the likes of France.


Give Kidney a break, 6 months ago, people were crying out for Luke and Kearny to play, and now we have them playing, even had Ferris on saturday as well as the added bonus of G. Murphy at 15. while he is hardly the "george best of rugby" as he was described, he is a very talented player who has been overlooked far to many times. "Geordan Murphy can't play against the french"....such rubbish.


while i would have liked to see Earls brought on as well as Buckley (just to give the guy a chance) it didn't happen, but to say that Kidney is picking up were EOS left of is ludicrous, if that was the case Leamy would probably still be at 8 and Strings at 9

Podge_irl

DaveyGem wrote: »

Give Kidney a break, 6 months ago, people were crying out for Luke and Kearny to play, and now we have them playing, even had Ferris on saturday as well as the added bonus of G. Murphy at 15. while he is hardly the "george best of rugby" as he was described, he is a very talented player who has been overlooked far to many times. "Geordan Murphy can't play against the french"....such rubbish.


while i would have liked to see Earls brought on as well as Buckley (just to give the guy a chance) it didn't happen, but to say that Kidney is picking up were EOS left of is ludicrous, if that was the case Leamy would probably still be at 8 and Strings at 9

Kearney played under EOS, and was actually played at full back! And Murphy got 50 caps under EOS, which is significantly more than I would have given him given the choice. The Murphy thing is a silly argument to get into as there are better candidates who were ignored under EOS and people are never going to agree on him anyway (though for the record Murphy has been godawful against the French several times). EOS had already moved Leamy to 6 and dropped Stringer.
The personnel are not shockingly different from what EOS used, but its the similarity of the tactics that bothers me more. Looking at Ireland play in the 6N, over the summer and now you would think EOS was coaching for two of the periods - the summer was the only time the team actually looked to be playing differently.

DaveyGem

Podge_irl wrote: »

Kearney played under EOS, and was actually played at full back! And Murphy got 50 caps under EOS, which is significantly more than I would have given him given the choice. The Murphy thing is a silly argument to get into as there are better candidates who were ignored under EOS and people are never going to agree on him anyway (though for the record Murphy has been godawful against the French several times). EOS had already moved Leamy to 6 and dropped Stringer.
The personnel are not shockingly different from what EOS used, but its the similarity of the tactics that bothers me more. Looking at Ireland play in the 6N, over the summer and now you would think EOS was coaching for two of the periods - the summer was the only time the team actually looked to be playing differently.

Sorry forgot Kearney was playing,



the stringer and Leamy remark was made in jest.

With regards to the style of play, it was rather old school Kidney (pre-all black backline from munster) With Rog kicking out of hand out and the forwards trying pick and go.

Unfortunately thats what was needed on saturday to beat a team who's backline defense achieved more or less exactly what they set out to do.

Had we played it through the backs we would have lost out at the breakdown and Fernandez would have had plenty of shots on goal, enough to make the game even tighter. Then people would have been on hear complaining about us not doing the simple things like grinding out a victory when we needed it (World Rankings). Im certain Declan and Gaffney would have loved to have thrown move after move at the Argies but it just wasn't goig to work.

Against the 6 nations teams, Im certain there is enough talent in our backs to run the ball,

Winning ugly is still winning, losing pretty is about as usefull as wooden cnut

And in fareness to Murphy, how many times have entire Irish sides played poorly against the French...To play him one week against say Wales, and for him to play well, and then 2 weeks later to say "sorry, ye played well last run out, but this week its the French for christ sake. You don't expect to play after that tackle you missed 12 months ago do you?" is just not on.
But EOS had his reasons i suppose.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

Kearney played under EOS, and was actually played at full back! And Murphy got 50 caps under EOS, which is significantly more than I would have given him given the choice. The Murphy thing is a silly argument to get into as there are better candidates who were ignored under EOS and people are never going to agree on him anyway (though for the record Murphy has been godawful against the French several times). EOS had already moved Leamy to 6 and dropped Stringer.
The personnel are not shockingly different from what EOS used, but its the similarity of the tactics that bothers me more. Looking at Ireland play in the 6N, over the summer and now you would think EOS was coaching for two of the periods - the summer was the only time the team actually looked to be playing differently.

Differences in the summer from AIs were:

Pre-ELVs must be a factor - SH teams had to revert back which would have put them at a bit of a disadvantage (and did, hesitant sometimes as to where they were kicking the ball from).

Teams:
New Zealand v. Ireland
Ireland: R Kearney, S Horgan, Brian O'Driscoll (cpt), P Wallace, T Bowe, R O'Gara, E Reddan, J Heaslip, D Wallace, D Leamy, D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell, J Hayes, J Flannery, M Horan.
Replacements: G Dempsey, G Murphy, P Stringer, S Jennings, M O'Driscoll, T Buckley, R Best.

Aus V. Ireland:
Ireland: R Kearney, S Horgan, B O'Driscoll (all Leinster), P Wallace, T Bowe (both Ulster), R O'Gara, P Stringer (both Munster); M Horan (Munster), R Best (Ulster), J Hayes, D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell, D Leamy (Munster), S Jennings (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster).
Replacements: J Flannery, T Buckley, M O'Driscoll (all Munster), S Ferris (Ulster), E Reddan (Wasps), G Murphy (Leicester), G Dempsey (Leinster).

Shane Jennings injured quite early and Ferris came on.

Podge_irl

DaveyGem wrote: »

And in fareness to Murphy, how many times have entire Irish sides played poorly against the French...To play him one week against say Wales, and for him to play well, and then 2 weeks later to say "sorry, ye played well last run out, but this week its the French for christ sake. You don't expect to play after that tackle you missed 12 months ago do you?" is just not on.
But EOS had his reasons i suppose.

Other teams change their line-up all the time without giving any particular reason. And its a perfectly valid notion that a particular player may not play well against a particular team - their style of play may just not suit. Personally I would have never let Murphy near the team ever again after France 2006 - it was one of the worst displays I've ever seen.

Differences in the summer from AIs were:

Pre-ELVs must be a factor - SH teams had to revert back which would have put them at a bit of a disadvantage (and did, hesitant sometimes as to where they were kicking the ball from).

I don't disagree that there are other factors at play, and I dislike the ELVs intensely. I never thought EOS was as bad as most people made out, I just thought he'd been there too long. I don't think Kidney is a bad coach either, I just don't think he's what Ireland needs right now as I consider him too similar to EOS. Whatever about changing the team, I was hoping to see them play with a bit more intelligence and renewed vigour, which didn't seem to happen. I'm not judging Kidney yet, I think its only fair that we see how the team get on in the 6 Nations, I just think its worrying.

Sundy

thehighground wrote: »

Differences in the summer from AIs were:

Pre-ELVs must be a factor - SH teams had to revert back which would have put them at a bit of a disadvantage (and did, hesitant sometimes as to where they were kicking the ball from).

Teams:
New Zealand v. Ireland
Ireland: R Kearney, S Horgan, Brian O'Driscoll (cpt), P Wallace, T Bowe, R O'Gara, E Reddan, J Heaslip, D Wallace, D Leamy, D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell, J Hayes, J Flannery, M Horan.
Replacements: G Dempsey, G Murphy, P Stringer, S Jennings, M O'Driscoll, T Buckley, R Best.

Aus V. Ireland:
Ireland: R Kearney, S Horgan, B O'Driscoll (all Leinster), P Wallace, T Bowe (both Ulster), R O'Gara, P Stringer (both Munster); M Horan (Munster), R Best (Ulster), J Hayes, D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell, D Leamy (Munster), S Jennings (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster).
Replacements: J Flannery, T Buckley, M O'Driscoll (all Munster), S Ferris (Ulster), E Reddan (Wasps), G Murphy (Leicester), G Dempsey (Leinster).

Shane Jennings injured quite early and Ferris came on.

That was with Micheal Bradley in charge not EOS.

Tim Robbins

bleg wrote: »

kidney's gameplans for the autumn internationals:

canada: win well
all blacks: damage limitation, maybe sneak a win
argentina: win at all costs

kidney's gameplans for the autumn internationals:
get out best runners to kick the ball as much as possible.

premierstone

Tim Robbins wrote: »

kidney's gameplans for the autumn internationals:
get out best runners to kick the ball as much as possible.

What exactly would you prefer to loose playing nice free flowing Rugby or to win what was a must win game and in the process score the only try conceeded by your oppenents in over 4 hours of Rugby??

crisco10

Potentially adding fuel to an already stoked fire but...

Does anyone else think that the backline arent trying to break the line as much because they are not confident of support being with them? Im not saying they are getting tackled on purpose but there are no intricate attempts to get thru the defence, and offloads in the tackle? non existent.

I think significantly more line breaks come from good offloads out of tackles than side steps and swerving etc. but with Ireland and Leinster at the moment, there isnt a hint of trailing of the ball carrier going on. The most obvious example was Wallace after Bowes break on saturday.

Sorry to use a provincial example (can't think of international one off the top of my head) but BOD's try in toulouse in 06 would never happen at the moment.

I really thought Gaffney would do better (both at Ire and Leinster). i know its early days but the lack of even a hint of variance is worrying.

That all being said, I do think the result was the most important thing on Sat and Kidney did what needed to be done. A win was needed, a win was delivered. Job done.

bugler

I'm going to wait until after the 6N before saying anything about any of the coaching staff. That will have given them some time to get what are very obviously damaged and fragile international side to turn a corner.