Do we need a riot in Dublin to get the government to focus?

KingSitric

€10m is needed to roll out the cervical vaccine program. Mary Harney has flatly said 'No'. Theres no money. And yet the government are in discussions to bail out the banks to the tunes of hundreeds of millions. And probably sell our banks off to the nearest middle-eastern venture capitalist.
I'm finding it hard to believe that we aren't up in arms over this. And a I think a riot is brewing.


sceptre's edit: I've put the post content back. I'm afraid you don't get (to quote someone else) to "- if you'll forgive the metaphor - incite a riot on a forum, then sneak off whistling innocently". It's unreasonable to edit out the entire content of a thread's first post as it's an attempt to make the entire thread meaningless. If you're going to start threads but edit out the original content of the original post later, feel free to post elsewhere on the Internet instead. If anyone would like any thread closed that they started, it's worth discussing with the mods (bearing in mind for some sense of control and fairness to others, it's their call) but editing out the entire content of a starting post on a thread is plain rude. Complaints may be sent to me by PM, other politics mods by PM or put on the Feedback forum

eoin5

Well its good to see people out protesting things again but I dont think a riot is going to help fix anything.

minxie

back to the 80s with a bang!!!

KingSitric

I agree, it's great to see people out on the streets. But its pointless if the government don't take action.
For example, €10m is needed to roll out the cervical vaccine program. Mary Harney has flatly said 'No'. Theres no money. And yet the government are in discussions to bail out the banks to the tunes of hundreeds of millions. And probably sell our banks off to the nearest middle-eastern venture capitalist.
I'm finding it hard to believe that we aren't up in arms over this. And a I think a riot is brewing.

brianthebard

We need to be able to make a vote of no confidence in the government.

hellboy99

KingSitric wrote: »

€10m is needed to roll out the cervical vaccine program. Mary Harney has flatly said 'No'. Theres no money. And yet the government are in discussions to bail out the banks to the tunes of hundreeds of millions. And probably sell our banks off to the nearest middle-eastern venture capitalist.
I'm finding it hard to believe that we aren't up in arms over this. And a I think a riot is brewing.

It's a joke, I find it very hard that they can't find €10m, think of the lives and money they would save in the long run, only an idiot could make such a decesion. Brian Cowen managed to find €1.3 very easy for the Dail's new Tuck Shop.

The way to get this country out of the mess it is in is to lower the cost of living not put it up and drive everyone across the border and don't even get me started on the petrol situation.

The people of Ireland need to take a stand and finally tell our government what a bunch of muppets they are, the problem is they think everything is fine when no one protests their decesions, look what happened with the medical cards.

KingSitric

Agreed. Its a sham. And the poor auld Greens are looking down the barrel of a gun -damned if they do, damned if they don't!
Until people rise up, strike, march AND refuse to take this from the government, they will ignore us and carry on regardless.

Thirdfox

Peaceful (and boisterous) protest is okay - rioting is illegal.

I'd be careful before trying to organise a riot online that can be easily tracked to who and where you are.

In regards to expressing frustration at the government have you tried communicating with your local TD representative? And of course the marches by the OAPs and students did have an effect on the government's stance towards some issues (The Economist seems to think it was detrimental effect...)

xOxSinéadxOx

yes.

KingSitric

Thirdfox wrote: »

Peaceful (and boisterous) protest is okay - rioting is illegal.

I'd be careful before trying to organise a riot online that can be easily tracked to who and where you are.

In regards to expressing frustration at the government have you tried communicating with your local TD representative? And of course the marches by the OAPs and students did have an effect on the government's stance towards some issues (The Economist seems to think it was detrimental effect...)

Have you tried to communicate with your local TD lately? Try it and see how far you get.
There is deep, underlying frustration and anger with this government. It was evident yesterday at the INTO march in Cork. It was evident at the OAPs march in Dublin and will be evident in the next big march in Dublin on December 6th.
In Iceland today a peaceful march turned ugly by the heavy handedness of police and the pure frustration and helplessness felt by ordinary citizens -not your usual anarchists.
As far as rioting being illegal: it is for one simple reason -to keep the general population under control. We have a hstory of riots, of revolutions and boycotts in Ireland. And it works.

oscarBravo

KingSitric wrote: »

As far as rioting being illegal: it is for one simple reason -to keep the general population under control.

If keeping the general population under control means me not getting bricks through my window or my car torched, then I'm all for it.

KingSitric

oscarBravo wrote: »

If keeping the general population under control means me not getting bricks through my window or my car torched, then I'm all for it.

This typifies the 'Me Fein' pathway this country has taken. And it also represents the attitude of, ' I don't want to get involved as its one of my business'.

I've been of that ilk my whole life and at 40 years of age now I've seen and heard enough lies from politicans and the conmen running this country.
People need to step up to the plate and take direct action. If a riot ensue's, so be it. I'm surprised there hasn't been on already, with the amount of abuse we get from our government, from our banks, from dodgy developers, from drug gangs, from judges not passing lenghty sentences etc etc etc

sink

KingSitric wrote: »

This typifies the 'Me Fein' pathway this country has taken. And it also represents the attitude of, ' I don't want to get involved as its one of my business'.

I've been of that ilk my whole life and at 40 years of age now I've seen and heard enough lies from politicans and the conmen running this country.
People need to step up to the plate and take direct action. If a riot ensue's, so be it. I'm surprised there hasn't been on already, with the amount of abuse we get from our government, from our banks, from dodgy developers, from drug gangs, from judges not passing lenghty sentences etc etc etc

Riots may serve a purpose in extreme circumstance where a major issue is not getting the attention it deserves. Currently all eyes are focused on the issues at hand, so a riot would serve no purpose. It also seems a very childish approach to solving one's problems, akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum. In my view all it would achieve would be to take the focus of the real economic and political problems and give the government an opportunity to refocus the debate on anti-social behaviour.

KingSitric

sink wrote: »

Riots may serve a purpose in extreme circumstance where a major issue is not getting the attention it deserves. Currently all eyes are focused on the issues at hand, so a riot would serve no purpose. It also seems a very childish approach to solving one's problems, akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum. In my view all it would achieve would be to take the focus of the real economic and political problems and give the government an opportunity to refocus the debate on anti-social behaviour.

Rubbish! I'd hardly compare a riot to a 'toddler throwing a tantrum'! As for getting the government to refocus on anti-social behaviour - I should think they are focusing on law and order, what with the recent gangland murder in Limerick. And if they are not, well it's just another reason to get rid of them.

Protests are not childish or teenage. They play a very importnt role in society, and as anger builds up amongst people and leads to a riot as has happened in Iceland today, well I believe that is good for democracy.

Scofflaw

KingSitric wrote: »

This typifies the 'Me Fein' pathway this country has taken. And it also represents the attitude of, ' I don't want to get involved as its one of my business'.

I've been of that ilk my whole life and at 40 years of age now I've seen and heard enough lies from politicans and the conmen running this country.
People need to step up to the plate and take direct action. If a riot ensue's, so be it. I'm surprised there hasn't been on already, with the amount of abuse we get from our government, from our banks, from dodgy developers, from drug gangs, from judges not passing lenghty sentences etc etc etc

I'm with oscarBravo on this one. If you want to riot, please riot near your home and children, not mine. You will get equal coverage on the news.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sink

KingSitric wrote: »

Rubbish! I'd hardly compare a riot to a 'toddler throwing a tantrum'! As for getting the government to refocus on anti-social behaviour - I should think they are focusing on law and order, what with the recent gangland murder in Limerick. And if they are not, well it's just another reason to get rid of them.

Protests are not childish or teenage. They play a very importnt role in society, and as anger builds up amongst people and leads to a riot as has happened in Iceland today, well I believe that is good for democracy.

Protests and riots are two very different things in my book. Protests are peaceful demonstrations of peoples concerns and have enough power to topple governments. Riots are disruptive, destructive and dangerous. They result in damaged property, injury and even death. No one has the right to torch someone's car or premises, no one has the right to assault a public servant, no one has the right to try and impose their will through an act of violence. The day that changes will be a sad day for our society.

KingSitric

sink wrote: »

Protests and riots are two very different things in my book. Protests are peaceful demonstrations of peoples concerns and have enough power to topple governments. Riots are disruptive, destructive and dangerous. They result in damaged property, injury and even death. No one has the right to torch someone's car or premises, no one has the right to assault a public servant, no one has the right to try and impose their will through an act of violence. The day that changes will be a sad day for our society.

You talk about rights as if you could pluck them off magic beanstalk in your back yard!
People died in this country, through acts of violence, to gives us the few rights that we enjoy, including the right to protest. Unfortunately our politicians are not listening and are out of touch.
People all over the world are forced into violent protests to have their voices heard and rights enhanced (Myanmar monks, Lebanese christians, UK truckers, French farmers, Assylum seekers in Ireland)

sink

KingSitric wrote: »

You talk about rights as if you could pluck them off magic beanstalk in your back yard!
People died in this country, through acts of violence, to gives us the few rights that we enjoy, including the right to protest. Unfortunately our politicians are not listening and are out of touch.

In extreme circumstances when the state was imposing it's will through violence and the public were being denied a voice. That is very different to a democratically elected government taking unpopular decisions.

KingSitric wrote: »

People all over the world are forced into violent protests to have their voices heard and rights enhanced (Myanmar monks, Lebanese christians, UK truckers, French farmers, Assylum seekers in Ireland)

The first two you mention are both groups who are being persecuted either by the state or by a larger social group. The latter threes causes were all damaged by acting in a violent manner.

The battle to establish rights and procedures to deal with peoples concerns has been won. We have an independent courts system, freedom of speech, right to protest and a free vote. People died and committed violence so we wouldn't have to.

Nodin

KingSitric wrote: »

I'm sure many of you fellow boarders have seen the news of riots in Iceland, over the economic situation there. An yes I did say Iceland you wouldn't think it could happen there, but coul it hapen here? Is it what is needed to jumpstart and harness the obvious national disapointment and illfeeling towards the Fainna Fail/ Green government?

Only if its done in the French style, with a mass movement behind it- national strikes and days of protests.

(It would seem that those states that don't act like that have a democratically elected dictatorship for four years. Tragic really, but there ye go.)

KingSitric

SINK, I think UK truckers and French farmers would take issue with your statement. Their protests did not damage their causes.

I think you are underestimating the well of opinion and anger out there. It's deep. Very deep. And I believe people will have to chain themsleves to the gates of the Dail, sit en-masse in the middle of busy Dublin streets, let sheep loose in the gardens of Dail Eireann, scale the walls of government buildings, burn effigies of ministers and refuse to budge from Kildare Street until we get answers as to where the hell all the money has gone and why the hell are they bailing out the banks when they got us into this mess!

sink

KingSitric wrote: »

I think UK truckers and French farmers would take issue with your statement. Their protests did not damage their causes.

General public opinion turned against those who committed violence.

KingSitric wrote: »

I think you are underestimating the well of opinion and anger out there. It's deep. Very deep. And I believe people will have to chain themsleves to the gates of the Dail, sit en-masse in the middle of busy Dublin streets, let sheep loose in the gardens of Dail Eireann, scale the walls of government buildings, burn effigies of ministers and refuse to budge from Kildare Street until we get answers as to where the hell all the money has gone and why the hell are they bailing out the banks when they got us into this mess!

What exactly do you expect them to do? What action can the government take to satisfy your concerns? Let the banks fail? There is no quick way to dig us out of our economic hole. Rioting is not going to help in any way. What great accomplishment has the rioting in Iceland achieved that you wish to emulate?

KingSitric

What exactly do you expect them to do? What action can the government take to satisfy your concerns? Let the banks fail? There is no quick way to dig us out of our economic hole. Rioting is not going to help in any way. What great accomplishment has the rioting in Iceland achieved that you wish to emulate?

They are not my concerns. They are the conerns of hundreds of thousands of ordinary men and women throughout Ireland.
The banks wil not fail. The economy will not crash and burn. We will come through this as we have in the past. This economic cycle will pass. And thats my point -why are the government increasing taxes, cutting spending in the most crass and counterproductive way when they know we will come through this crisis?
They are not listening to the people. You only have to look at Mary Harney to see that. She is out of touch.

The riots in Iceland today I guarantee you, have focused their govrnments attention on the problems they have. And believe me things are going to get worse here, unless this government changes vision and inspires us with a stimulating package of measures to build on our success.

sink

KingSitric wrote: »

They are not my concerns. They are the conerns of hundreds of thousands of ordinary men and women throughout Ireland.
The banks wil not fail. The economy will not crash and burn. We will come through this as we have in the past. This economic cycle will pass. And thats my point -why are the government increasing taxes, cutting spending in the most crass and counterproductive way when they know we will come through this crisis?
They are not listening to the people. You only have to look at Mary Harney to see that. She is out of touch.

As you say this is an economic cycle that will pass. There is no justification for violence.

KingSitric wrote: »

The riots in Iceland today I guarantee you, have focused their govrnments attention on the problems they have. And believe me things are going to get worse here, unless this government changes vision and inspires us with a stimulating package of measures to build on our success.

You talk as if the total economic collapse of Iceland's economy is something their government can ignore.

KingSitric

I don't like when people put words in my mouth.

I'm not advocating violence. I'm posing a question.

And the Icelandic government have obviously failed it's people, why else would a protest today turn to riot?

Our government is making a bad situation worse. They are asking for trouble in the streets and protests! Why in the name of god, pull the plug on the cervical vaccination program? Why cut back on teachers? Its an investment in our future.

This country needs to stand up and rebel against these cuts. And not listen to mealy mouthed , high-brow arguments form people out of touch.

sink

KingSitric wrote: »

I don't like when people put words in my mouth.

I'm not advocating violence. I'm posing a question.

A question which you are clearly on the side of violence.

KingSitric wrote: »

And the Icelandic government have obviously failed it's people, why else would a protest today turn to riot?

Our government is making a bad situation worse. They are asking for trouble in the streets and protests! Why in the name of god, pull the plug on the cervical vaccination program? Why cut back on teachers? Its an investment in our future.

This country needs to stand up and rebel against these cuts. And not listen to mealy mouthed , high-brow arguments form people out of touch.

I fully support peaceful protests and mass demonstrations. Mass peaceful demonstrations can cause revolutions and topple governments just look at the Ukrainian orange revolution as a resent example. I would even think about partaking but I draw the line when it comes to violence.

KingSitric

sink wrote: »

A question which you are clearly on the side of violence.

By posing the question on this thread 'Do we need a riot to get the government to focus?' I am not clearly on the side of violence. I'm posing a question. A discussion topic.

I fully support peaceful protests and mass demonstrations. Mass peaceful demonstrations can cause revolutions and topple governments just look at the Ukrainian orange revolution as a resent example. I would even think about partaking but I draw the line when it comes to violence.

Peaceful protests are well and good. And yes, I agree that the Orange revolution in the Ukraine was an inspiration (there was little violence, though the president was poisoned). So perhaps we should consider a similar approach -mass congregation and resistance to move, until something is done.

sink

KingSitric wrote: »

By posing the question on this thread 'Do we need a riot to get the government to focus?' I am not clearly on the side of violence. I'm posing a question. A discussion topic.

I am glad you are not inciting or condoning violence.

KingSitric wrote: »

Peaceful protests are well and good. And yes, I agree that the Orange revolution in the Ukraine was an inspiration (there was little violence, though the president was poisoned). So perhaps we should consider a similar approach -mass congregation and resistance to move, until something is done.

That is a reasonable approach which almost everyone including myself will condone.

marcsignal

brianthebard wrote: »

We need to be able to make a vote of no confidence in the government.

+1

nesf

hellboy99 wrote: »

It's a joke, I find it very hard that they can't find €10m, think of the lives and money they would save in the long run, only an idiot could make such a decesion. Brian Cowen managed to find €1.3 very easy for the Dail's new Tuck Shop.

There's a lot more to it than just the cost. It's effectiveness is nowhere close to as certain as a lot of the media were making out. There's a good thread on it in Biology/Medicine that's worth reading: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055416161

They are pushing forward with screening, this is known to be very effective at preventing women from getting cervical cancer, it's a joke that it wasn't in already if anything. This vaccine may be effective but without further studies we won't know that for sure and such studies may take as long as 10 years to provide conclusive evidence! I'd much rather the Government spend money on things we know to work than spending it on things that aren't conclusively shown to be effective.

djpbarry

KingSitric wrote: »

For example, €10m is needed to roll out the cervical vaccine program.
...
And a I think a riot is brewing.

Yeah, let's have a riot and cause €10 million worth of damage. That should help.

djpbarry

KingSitric wrote: »

Have you tried to communicate with your local TD lately? Try it and see how far you get.

I wrote to Dermot Ahern 2 weeks ago. I received a reply about 10 days later. I suggest you try it too – letters tend to be a more effective form of communication than petrol bombs.