Do we need a riot in Dublin to get the government to focus?

trentf

people need to wake up and realise whos getting the short end of the straw here.

Policians will never care about the people as long as the current system of governement remains in power. Doesn't matter which party gets in they are both the same corrupt to the core. The only thing to end the madness is quite simple a march and ejection of the government simple.... as that.

Don't hope for better things to come your way by voting in a better option THERE IS NO BETTER OPTION in the current system. A new system is whats needed whereby people are choosen to represent their communities on a rotary basis to ensure no corruption and most importantly the rights of the PEOPLE come first not the elites in ireland and europe.. change is coming... the people are waking up...

Darragh29

There must be an effective way to protest against the government without breaking the law but at the same time recognising that the usual approach of protesting publically will have no effect on this occasion.

I remember I used to work in this large company where morale was very poor and management was defective. Unions weren't recognised and we were all basically between a rock and a hard place when it came to basic workers rights and employment rights. We came up with ways of frustrating management every single day, like hiding things, slowing down the whole machine in a way that meant that no matter what they did, we are all busy but at the same time nothing was being done. It helped that management didn't actually know how the operations end of the business worked, (just like our government doesn't), so we achieved our objective in the end, management got moved to another place and eventually we got our say...

Surely there is some sort of similar approach that could be deployed against this government???

mikemac

Phototoxin wrote: »

Yet in the UK when they were investigating the sale of peerages the met knocked on the door with their warrant and searched no.10. Would never happen here at all.

I've noticed that too.
UK politicians are no better then our own but they seem to ready to resign immediately if they get caught in a scandal. Even high profile ones like Blunkett and Mandelson, I realise they made comebacks

You often hear about UK ministers resigning, Robin Cook the foreign secretary did it on principle due to the Iraq war.
Maybe it's the honorable thing. They do call each other "my right honorable friend" after all.

Doesn't seem to happen here at all. Martin Cullen could have resigned several times already by now!

Ziggurat

Riots are only appropriate when we start going down the police-state type of road. Until then, either rectify your concerns through democratic means or don't put innocent people at risk.
Honestly, that the OP even has to ask the question is very, very disturbing.

Simtech

Are there/should there be minimum qualifications to become an elected representative? If so, what are they/should they be??

SkepticOne

We had our chance in the last election and the one before it and the one before that. Most of the current unpopularity of the current government is the direct result of populist policies undertaken by government to gain votes, among these: allowing house prices to spiral upwards (hugely popular with those who owned houses), spending revenue from an unsustainable building boom to massively expand the public sector. Both popular moves. If we elect a man who spends €30,000 of public money on make-up and a party with these policies we should expect what we are getting now. We must live with our decision. None of our current problems - and I think the points raised by the OP are merely symptoms of much deeper problems - will be solved by kicking out the current government.

What I think is this: the current elected government have over 3 and a half years left in power. They must now sort out the mess they have created with their policies. If this means unpopular decisions, so be it. They should not be let off the hook so that some other sucker cleans up the mess. We have seen this too many times before.

Frankie Lee

trentf wrote: »

people need to wake up and realise whos getting the short end of the straw here.

Policians will never care about the people as long as the current system of governement remains in power. Doesn't matter which party gets in they are both the same corrupt to the core. The only thing to end the madness is quite simple a march and ejection of the government simple.... as that.

Don't hope for better things to come your way by voting in a better option THERE IS NO BETTER OPTION in the current system. A new system is whats needed whereby people are choosen to represent their communities on a rotary basis to ensure no corruption and most importantly the rights of the PEOPLE come first not the elites in ireland and europe.. change is coming... the people are waking up...

Good idea, but I fear we will never have our revolution, the only thing us dreamers can do IMO is infiltrate current the system, join FF,FG the civil service, the law society and possibly most importantly the army and then some day we may be able to rise up and live out the revolution.

trentf

I disagree, i think people have their limits, theres only so much beating a person will take, just take a look what happened in Iceland. they stood up and said enough is enough.. the only thing stopping people taking action is their own sense of reliance and percieved powerless, reliance on a system which exploits them whilst they continually accept an ever increasing set of restrictions in the hope that things will get better. They are only a handful of very rich elite people running this whole show. But without the participation of the people this whole thing would collapse like a deck of cards.

There are millions being subjected to this. I think people are starting to wake up and stop watching american idol, coronation street and begining to look around them and say 'hey wait a minute we elect different politicians every election cycle, how come things just keep getting worse, my wages get worse, mortage is increased, pension being done away with, taxes increased, banks taking over more and more power to institutions to rule me and civil liberties on the wane, why? because bascially there is no difference between the parties,none.
How can there be a economic collapse when it is the very power brokers who can create money out of thin air?, when it is the very power brokers who decide the tax regime, tax laws, international trading regulations and set up the worlds financial markets.. It is a joke a cruel joke only its not those getting the short end of the straw who created it, its the people who aren't in on the joke being played on them and believe the system to be real. Joe soap doesn't stop to ask himself these questions because joe soap is so brainwashed by the very system that enslaves him he can't even critically think for himself anymore. He's too busy distracted by shiny gadgets and gizmos and trying to get some worth out of his tiny amount of free time he gets when he's not been made do loop tricks like a dog by the system

Their greed represents our greed only a magnified scale because we enable it by our unwillingness to believe there is a better system and to act on it and create it. The very system we rely on is the one which enslaves us. It is it which is the the problem. We give our power over to what we percieve to be the rich and powerful, we allow them to decide the system, the rules, the people allow it to rule them because they believe themselves to be powerless or rather are brainwashed by corporate media to think they are. That's what allows the few to rule the many.. All it takes is a change in attitude..

djpbarry

SkepticOne wrote: »

Most of the current unpopularity of the current government is the direct result of populist policies undertaken by government to gain votes, among these: allowing house prices to spiral upwards...

House prices were driven upwards by consumer demand, not by government.

Frankie Lee

djpbarry wrote: »

House prices were driven upwards by consumer demand, not by government.

And by lack of government regulation.

djpbarry

trentf wrote: »

A new system is whats needed whereby people are choosen to represent their communities on a rotary basis to ensure no corruption...

How does that differ from the current system? And how do you ensure there is zero corruption?

trentf wrote: »

I think people are starting to wake up and stop watching american idol, coronation street and begining to look around them and say 'hey wait a minute we elect different politicians every election cycle, how come things just keep getting worse, my wages get worse, mortage is increased, pension being done away with, taxes increased, banks taking over more and more power to institutions to rule me and civil liberties on the wane, why?

Wages are going down? Really?

If someone takes on a mortgage they can’t afford that’s their problem.

Which pensions are you referring to?

As for taxes, we still pay low taxes relative to EU averages.

In what way are banks “taking over”?

trentf wrote: »

How can there be a economic collapse when it is the very power brokers who can create money out of thin air?, when it is the very power brokers who decide the tax regime, tax laws, international trading regulations and set up the worlds financial markets..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0764557262/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

trentf wrote: »

He's too busy distracted by shiny gadgets and gizmos and trying to get some worth out of his tiny amount of free time he gets…

Tiny amount of free time? Nonsense. People work fewer hours now than they did in the 80’s:
http://www.tcd.ie/ERC/observatorydownloads/Changing%20Times.pdf

djpbarry

Frankie Lee wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

House prices were driven upwards by consumer demand, not by government.

And by lack of government regulation.

How so?

ednwireland

we should have a sit down blockade in dublin airport (would anyone notice ?)

sink

Frankie Lee wrote: »

And by lack of government regulation.

So are you advocating government intervention in the market through the establishing price ceilings. Anyone who has sat in an economics class will tell that will only result in shortages.

Frankie Lee

I'm not advocating price ceilings, the boom was created due to an under supply of houses, at a time when the government should have been building social housing to meet demand, however they didn't and the market burnt itself out when inflated prices led to an oversupply of house which coupled with other factors led to the market crashing.

SkepticOne

djpbarry wrote: »

House prices were driven upwards by consumer demand, not by government.

So there's nothing a government can do once a bubble develops to deflate it? What about the Bacon recommendations that the government started to implement back in 2000 but backed out? What about removing tax incentives for speculators or implementing measures to discourage them? I would be interested in your reasons for thinking that government had no part to play in the hugely damaging asset price bubble.

djpbarry

SkepticOne wrote: »

So there's nothing a government can do once a bubble develops to deflate it? What about the Bacon recommendations that the government started to implement back in 2000 but backed out? What about removing tax incentives for speculators or implementing measures to discourage them? I would be interested in your reasons for thinking that government had no part to play in the hugely damaging asset price bubble.

I'm not saying that there is nothing the government could have done. However, property prices went through the roof in this country because people became obsessed with splurging ridiculous sums of money on badly-built shoe-boxes in badly planned developments.

SkepticOne

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not saying that there is nothing the government could have done. However, property prices went through the roof in this country because people became obsessed with splurging ridiculous sums of money on badly-built shoe-boxes in badly planned developments.

So what was your point when you said "House prices were driven upwards by consumer demand, not by government." in response to my criticism of government policy?

Obviously there are numerous factors at work here. I was trying to show that what we are dealing with now is the result of prior government policy. They could have dealt with the housing bubble and caused it to deflate but chose not to and many of their policies merely served to further inflate it.

djpbarry

SkepticOne wrote: »

So what was your point when you said "House prices were driven upwards by consumer demand, not by government." in response to my criticism of government policy?

Because without consumer demand, the property boom could never have happened.

I'm not saying that there was not more the government could have done, particularly with regard to planning and infrastructure, but I am more than a little tired hearing people complaining about the fact that they "had to" pay x hundred thousand euros for a one-bed flat in Ballywherever and it's all the governments fault for not regulating the market.

SkepticOne

djpbarry wrote: »

but I am more than a little tired hearing people complaining about the fact that they "had to" pay x hundred thousand euros for a one-bed flat in Ballywherever and it's all the governments fault for not regulating the market.

Did I say that governent policy was exclusively responsible for the bubble?

My point - and it was exclusively focussed on government policy - was that government policy, or lack thereof, on the housing market supported the continued upward spiral of the bubble and, more importantly, this was generally popular with the electorate. These same popular policies and others are now what is causing us to face much a much more severe downturn than otherwise.

This is why I disagree with suggestions that the government should be ousted. First of all we elected them after knowing all that we know (Berties 30K make-up bill, pro-housing bubble policies etc), and secondly, some other mug will have to clean up the mess and suffer unpopularity when it should really be the current crowd.

djpbarry

SkepticOne wrote: »

Did I say that governent policy was exclusively responsible for the bubble?

No, you didn't. Nor did I suggest that you did.

SkepticOne wrote: »

This is why I disagree with suggestions that the government should be ousted. First of all we elected them after knowing all that we know...

Absolutely. People were well aware of the unstable nature of the government's fiscal policy (or at least they should have been) but still saw fit to re-elect them, effectively giving the "Celtic Property Economy" a ringing endorsement.