Public transport cutbacks on the way

orbital83

Public transport services look like they will be scaled back in 2009.
Gormley, Ryan - I'm looking at you.

Hundreds of jobs to go as stricken CIE cuts services
Measures being considered include:

? The withdrawal from service of around 100 buses at Dublin Bus through reduced frequency on some routes and withdrawal of services on a small number of lightly-used routes.

? The release of as many as 400 staff at Bus Eireann with over 170 buses being withdrawn from service.

? The cancellation of over 40 Bus Eireann services and a reduction of services on a further 150 routes.

IRISH RAIL

nothing new there in IE theyve been trying to get rid of loads even shutting down whole departments been doing it for years now

HonalD

The recession is everywhere, even in CIE

orbital83

I don't think anything as drastic as the removal of 100 Dublin Buses from service has happened to date.

Then again, maybe someone will use all those shiny new cycle lanes now. John Gormley can't have that one from his house in Ringsend all to himself.

AlekSmart

Absolutely correct John R and the situation may well be worse.

What this reveals is the total incompetence of some of those held up as leading lights in terms of Public Transport in Ireland.

At the very least this volte-face on Public Transport policy should be grouped with the resignations (or dismissals) of much of the Department of Transport`s Senior OIfficials and for good measure their Minister.

Additionally we now require some indication as to whether the Public Transport aspects of Transport 21 were actually an intrinsic part of that plan or whether they were added on after the Road Building provisions were first copper fastened.

Make no mistake about it,but this will turn out to be a MISTAKE of incredible proportions which will set the countrys Public Transport back to a situation approximating to the mid 1970`s.

As some writers in todays Irish Independent put it.....The country now is in the hands of Politicians who REALLY do not have the slightest idea of how to proceed.
Effectively the Senior Civil Service is now running the country on a cash-ledger book basis which sees cutbacks as the ONLY way to respond.

I believe the word Pygmies is appropriate in this case. :mad:

Del2005

So how are all the good people who give, or are thinking of giving, up their cars supposed to get anywhere is they pull the buses?

This is worst then pulling up the tram tracks, which at the time seemed like a good idea, but this can't be a good idea.

Nostradamus

Hopefully CIE will rid the taxpayers of the wasters in Harristown who were burning pallets a while back. They should be the ones to go first and all the habitual strike junkies within the CIE system. A list of names should of been drawn up with any luck. This way the CIE staff who get the whole "working for a wage" concept will be retained.

Taget the dossers and reward the public transport professionals. I would include CIE management in this too.

T Corolla

There maybe scope to do this with long diastance train and bus services.
I traveled from sligo on the 15:00 hours train with fifty people and the was a bus leaving sligo at the same time that was 75% full. Some bus services need to be scrapped and put the passengers onto the train that has more than enough capacity. I would like to see this buses then put to use on non national routes i.e Athlone to Waterford which has only two services a day Athlone to Dundalk with one service a day etc. It time that Bus eireann stated to become more passenger friendly and start opening business on these routes instead of running hourly services on and off peak from Dublin to Galway when they could time their services two hourly off peak in conjunction with the train and go hourly on peak. I understand that the bus does stop more on these routes where the train has no station and these stops should not be scrapped and where the train and bus stop these could be reduced. I cannot see any profitable services been scrapped and i cannot see any non national routes been scrapped. I would not like to see any driver lose their job either but these are difficult times. In 2009 CIE needs to revamp there timetables so when things get good again they will be ready for the upturn in the transport business.

Del2005

T Corolla wrote: »

There maybe scope to do this with long diastance train and bus services.
I traveled from sligo on the 15:00 hours train with fifty people and the was a bus leaving sligo at the same time that was 75% full. Some bus services need to be scrapped and put the passengers onto the train that has more than enough capacity. I would like to see this buses then put to use on non national routes i.e Athlone to Waterford which has only two services a day Athlone to Dundalk with one service a day etc. It time that Bus eireann stated to become more passenger friendly and start opening business on these routes instead of running hourly services on and off peak from Dublin to Galway when they could time their services two hourly off peak in conjunction with the train and go hourly on peak. I understand that the bus does stop more on these routes where the train has no station and these stops should not be scrapped and where the train and bus stop these could be reduced. I cannot see any profitable services been scrapped and i cannot see any non national routes been scrapped. I would not like to see any driver lose their job either but these are difficult times. In 2009 CIE needs to revamp there timetables so when things get good again they will be ready for the upturn in the transport business.

Seeing as the train is a lot more expensive then the bus they'd just end up loosing passengers to their cars. People use the bus because it's cheaper, as you're example shows. So why should they be forced onto the more expensive train, except to make it look like it's actually attracting passengers.

T Corolla

The reason they may go with my suggestions is that they will still fullfill the public servic obligation by committing to a transport service to the main towns as these would be the main sources of income a higher footfall that the smaller towns/villages as they would have guarnteed income from the commuter tickets for the year so they would precisely estimate the annual income so that can put these figures to government at the end of the year and pray the government will give them the subsiaries they need. The capital investment programme for the new rolling stock was in total 120 million euro's on trains and 50 million on buses so i cant see them parking up that many trains in the Inchiore yards. As a previous subscriber stated earlier if they cut back on these services they will be right back in the 1970's. All transport 21 projects have been committed to are still running. I hope that they will not do a sweeping reduncies as it will be an awful waste of money and will destroy our competivness for years to come.;)

thebman

They shouldn't have to make the government see that they should invest in public transport.

If they were anyway in touch with the people they'd know it needs investment and they'd know that it isn't a big deal to borrow for this since everyone will be paying for it in the future (usually to stand uncomfortably close to one another).

I despise this government for this. The plan basically is to put up all taxes on cars and say you should use public transport while simultaneously cutting public transport funding so there is less services and so less capacity so we all end up having to use cars and paying through the nose for it.

Nice plan if your a company with a monopoly trying to turn a profit! Not such a good idea if your a government supposedly serving the people.

I just pray the voters in the country are smart enough to not vote for these fookwits again and it makes me ashamed that the Taoiseach is from the same county I'm from. They clearly have no idea what they are doing and are perfectly happy to let the citizens waste their lifes in a traffic jam trying to get to work and then they will bring in a congestion charge to tax you for having a job that you need to get to although with the way they are managing the economy, most of us won't have to worry about that for very long.

dub_commuter

Nostradamus wrote: »

Hopefully CIE will rid the taxpayers of the wasters in Harristown who were burning pallets a while back. They should be the ones to go first and all the habitual strike junkies within the CIE system. A list of names should of been drawn up with any luck. This way the CIE staff who get the whole "working for a wage" concept will be retained.

Taget the dossers and reward the public transport professionals. I would include CIE management in this too.

Have you actually used Harristown routes reguarly to make that statement? It apears not so of course - I agree. Of course we should close Harristown down. That would really achieve something at the end of the day. Infact why don't we close everyone down who is doing a good job and leave those open that are not doing a good job. I'm sure that will really help.

I've used many routes over the past few years in Dublin, I won't name them all. But for the last two years I have used a Harristown route every day. And I have had zero problems. My bus turns up. The drivers are friendly and pretty much everyone actually seem to appreciate their customers, unlike some other garages,

I have never had a soft spot for the unions. But having seen the day to day work that Harristown do, I can see why they had the problem that they did. They have a high standard of service on my route. They believed that the proposals DB wanted to bring in would harm that on the 4A/128. Waiting for drivers to change in the city-centre is not acceptable in my view - so well done to them for standing up for it.

Nostradamus

dub_commuter wrote: »

Have you actually used Harristown routes reguarly to make that statement? It apears not so of course - I agree. Of course we should close Harristown down. That would really achieve something at the end of the day. Infact why don't we close everyone down who is doing a good job and leave those open that are not doing a good job. I'm sure that will really help.

I've used many routes over the past few years in Dublin, I won't name them all. But for the last two years I have used a Harristown route every day. And I have had zero problems. My bus turns up. The drivers are friendly and pretty much everyone actually seem to appreciate their customers, unlike some other garages,

I have never had a soft spot for the unions. But having seen the day to day work that Harristown do, I can see why they had the problem that they did. They have a high standard of service on my route. They believed that the proposals DB wanted to bring in would harm that on the 4A/128. Waiting for drivers to change in the city-centre is not acceptable in my view - so well done to them for standing up for it.

Glad to hear you commuting experience has improved since Harristown opened. The shower of dossiers who tried to wreck it when it opened are still terrible public servants.

Nostradamus

People also have to realise that letting go of CIE staff does not an automatic downgrade of public transport "services" - in many cases CIE Work to Rule and Job Protectionism is biggest obstecle to quality public trnasport in this country and always has been.

Stark

I have to second what dub_commuter says. The service from Harristown is generally excellent.

antoinolachtnai

It is important to notice that Dublin Bus patronage is substantially down in the last year. This is a very serious issue. Something is definitely wrong when petrol prices jump substantially, extra capacity has been put in place, but public transport numbers still fall so substantially.

Something is seriously wrong with the way the whole thing is working, and it needs to be urgently addressed. I know that I am preaching to the converted here. But this is solid, undeniable proof that things have to change.

thebman

Well for Dublin Bus, the service isn't on time enough in most areas or isn't regular enough. Also it isn't that cheap and people just don't like it.

For IrishRail, I'd attribute a drop in numbers (which I read somewhere was 1%) on them introducing paid parking which has made it more cost effective for some people to drive to work than drive to the station and take the train.

Also the huge drop in employment in construction probably is going to affect these numbers as people won't have work to go to so have no reason to use the service.

dub_commuter

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is important to notice that Dublin Bus patronage is substantially down in the last year.

I was very surprised to hear this as a few of the bigger operators in the UK have recently revealed that due to the increase in fuel, they have seen decent growth.

orbital83

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is important to notice that Dublin Bus patronage is substantially down in the last year. This is a very serious issue.

Live Register
Oct 2007 157,449
Oct 2008 251,951

From http://www.statisticsireland.com

ardmacha

Live Register
Oct 2007 157,449
Oct 2008 251,951

Quite apart from the people here, last year there were substantial numbers of East Europeans working casually in Dublin. Most of these used the bus and many have left as work opportunities declined.

However when public transport operators saw an increase in many parts of the world it is an also a reflection on the system here, where people avoid it unless they have to.

SickCert

Back to my days on the 45 (and the 7s too) you would fill it with builders heading out to Merrion gates and the former Shankill camp site. The same with the 44s heading for Stepaside/ Belamine/ Dundrum SC. All built now.
I think most routes crossed a building site (homes and hotels) - Many foreign lads going about their trade.
Thats the big hit.

KC61

Something is going to have to give in this.

Numbers are down significantly, primarily due to (as Ardmacha observes) the decline in the immigrant population, who were very strong public transport users.

However, as revenue is falling, costs have increased significantly particularly with fuel. This is not only due to the increased price of oil that hit us, but the removal of the fuel duty rebate by the Government in line with EU requirements and the steadfast refusal by the Government to replace it with anything else (unlike the somewhat more enlightened approach of the UK Government which has introduced a replacement scheme) will lead to massive increases in costs for all public transport operators.

At the end of the day yes there are economies to be obtained, and better utilisation to be achieved, but when the whole licensing process is operated by the Department in such a manner as it is currently, with one eye kept permanently on the potential EU litigation, whilst at the same time people are left behind at stops and others are denied bus services, I fear that we're going to be waiting a long time before the public transport network that Dublin deserves is delivered.

A complete change of attitude is required from the top of Government downwards if we are to achieve the goal of a decent public transport system.

IRISH RAIL

Bloody bus chasers hogging this thread
the board of cie should be scrapped and all the outsourcing is a joke
and for these cost cutting managers coming in they should give up there big pay deals

Sponge Bob

Word around Galway is that the WRC will either

1. never open or
2. will have one morning and one evening train each way for the first year

lack of drivers !

you can guess what happens in year two

D'Peoples Voice

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Word around Galway is that the WRC will either

1. never open or
2. will have one morning and one evening train each way for the first year

lack of drivers !

you can guess what happens in year two

Oh no Sponge Bob, we're told the West NEEDS that facility,
so I'm sure the patronage will ensure it remains profitable and sustainable.
It would only ever need to be scaled back if it were, shall we say under-utilised!

If the recession does nothing else, I'm delighted that it will finish the WRC once and for all:D

D'Peoples Voice

brim4brim wrote: »

I despise this government for this. The plan basically is to put up all taxes on cars and say you should use public transport while simultaneously cutting public transport funding so there is less services and so less capacity so we all end up having to use cars and paying through the nose for it.

I may be wrong here, but I'd imagine that the cuts would only really affect OFF-PEAK services, as the rush hour services would be the most profitable. Hence for the vast majority of commuters there should be little noticeable effect.
they should cut back seriously on all non-profitable routes until the recession passes! Remember if you wish to subsidise unprofitable services, then other busier routes will have to suffer!

antoinolachtnai

KC61 wrote: »

Something is going to have to give in this.

However, as revenue is falling, costs have increased significantly particularly with fuel. This is not only due to the increased price of oil that hit us, but the removal of the fuel duty rebate by the Government in line with EU requirements and the steadfast refusal by the Government to replace it with anything else (unlike the somewhat more enlightened approach of the UK Government which has introduced a replacement scheme) will lead to massive increases in costs for all public transport operators.

At the end of the day yes there are economies to be obtained, and better utilisation to be achieved, but when the whole licensing process is operated by the Department in such a manner as it is currently, with one eye kept permanently on the potential EU litigation, whilst at the same time people are left behind at stops and others are denied bus services, I fear that we're going to be waiting a long time before the public transport network that Dublin deserves is delivered.

A complete change of attitude is required from the top of Government downwards if we are to achieve the goal of a decent public transport system.

A lot of the expenses result from pay increases. Pay is 65 percent of the budget. Pay increases will amount to 6 or 7 percent over 18 months for Dublin Bus. The diesel thing is only 3 or 4 percent. Dublin Bus is actually getting an increase in its subvention next year, despite carrying fewer passengers.

There are certainly efficiencies to be gained in Dublin Bus. The 90 alone lost EUR 1.5 million in 2006. Anecdotally, I was on the 44 this morning, and across the rush hour between 7.40 and 9.10, the particular vehicle I was on picked up only 27 cash passengers. The cost of running a Dublin Bus for a year is around 300k, which is just too much, especially if you only manage to pick up 27 passengers across the peak hour.

But the really hard problem is that the service is just not appealing to customers. That is the issue the DTA is going to have to resolve to get things moving.

markpb

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I may be wrong here, but I'd imagine that the cuts would only really affect OFF-PEAK services, as the rush hour services would be the most profitable. Hence for the vast majority of commuters there should be little noticeable effect.
they should cut back seriously on all non-profitable routes until the recession passes! Remember if you wish to subsidise unprofitable services, then other busier routes will have to suffer!

If you cut back on off-peak services, you lose people who work late, travel to meetings, meet up with friends after work, go shopping, etc. Some of those people will buy a car and since they now have a car, there's not much point in taking the bus to work.

dub_commuter

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I may be wrong here, but I'd imagine that the cuts would only really affect OFF-PEAK services, as the rush hour services would be the most profitable. Hence for the vast majority of commuters there should be little noticeable effect.
they should cut back seriously on all non-profitable routes until the recession passes! Remember if you wish to subsidise unprofitable services, then other busier routes will have to suffer!

I'm going to play devils advocate here - I believe your proposals are flawed unless there are significant changes in the way licensing works.

The arguments about privatization are that exactly this would happen. The private operators would only pick the profitable and busy routes and would not run vehicles at quieter times and would cherry pick the busier routes. If what you say is going to happen and we do this anyway, why should we not privatize?

It would no doubt be cheaper to privatize the bus system and let them cherry pick routes, than do the same cherry picking with the public bus system we currently have as I believe cherry picking with the public sector would be less efficient. It could be argued then, that the money saved by the private routes which are now in place, could be put into providing subsidy for the unprofitable routes.

The whole idea of Public transport is exactly that - to provide for the public, and in Dublin Bus' words "Serving the Entire Community" if we cease to do this, and kill everything apart for the profitable routes whilst still run by semi state companies. Then why not invite all the private operators in. After all, when the big advantage of having a public operator is to allow less profitable routes to continue, is withdrawn, what reason is their to continue?

In my view there are certain routes, that have a high frequency, only due to the fact that they have single deckers that a full to the brim. Double decks would improve efficiency here. Meanwhile, there are routes, particularly in the Cabra area, that previously had a high level of frequency with the imp's which were rarely full at that stage, are now double decks at the same frequency with only a handful of passengers - there could be reductions here also.

crocro

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

But the really hard problem is that the service is just not appealing to customers.

On many routes, 'not appealing' would be an understatement. Some services are impossibly unreliable. Even on some suburban, off-peak, low traffic journeys, where the usual congestion excuse does not apply, the buses still only appear whenever they wish. Watching them leave late, or early or not at all, or appear in convoy, gives the impression that the service is very poorly managed. Nobody expects the service to be perfect but once the reliability drops below a certain point then nobody will use it.

Dublin bus have no bus tracking system other than some archaically inefficient method based on guys standing on the streets with clipboards and a manual radio system. Management have no idea where the buses are at any given time. They do not have performance data for the reliability of their fleet. They cannot measure the operation so they cannot manage it. We end up with 1,000 buses bouncing around the city in brownian motion and few passengers. More money and more buses are not going to help.

Dublin Bus look at GPS tracking and smart cards like they are putting a man on the moon, despite the fact that these systems have been running for decades elsewhere in places like hong kong.

Some drivers are considerate and polite but many are needlessly offensive to their passengers.

Of course the Department of Transport are so bad they make Dublin Bus look like a model of efficiency and progress. Getting a route changed or a new service licenced takes years.

antoinolachtnai

Peak services are not profitable for Dublin Bus. Dublin Bus are on record with the Transport Committee of the Dail, and with the Department of Transport, arguing that peak services are lossmakers for the company (because of the number of extra buses required to operate them) and cannot be operated without a subsidy.

Ste.phen

crocro wrote: »

Dublin Bus look at GPS tracking and smart cards like they are putting a man on the moon, despite the fact that these systems have been running for decades elsewhere in places like hong kong.

Dublin bus introduced their own smart card system after the RPA's integrated system showed itself to be coming 'in years' rather than 'soon'.
I'm sure one of the folks with the knowledge of DB's internal stuff will be along to remind us what happened to the GPS tracking system, but if i recall correctly, they trialled it successfully, and then the DOT blocked the rollout.

Ste.phen

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Peak services are not profitable for Dublin Bus. Dublin Bus are on record with the Transport Committee of the Dail, and with the Department of Transport, arguing that peak services are lossmakers for the company (because of the number of extra buses required to operate them) and cannot be operated without a subsidy.

I was surprised when I first heard this, but on reflection it makes sense. If they use 10 buses at peak time, and 4 off peak, they have a full 6 buses and drivers that are only earning revenue for a part of the day, but costing the entire time.

crocro

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Peak services are not profitable for Dublin Bus. Dublin Bus are on record with the Transport Committee of the Dail, and with the Department of Transport, arguing that peak services are lossmakers for the company (because of the number of extra buses required to operate them) and cannot be operated without a subsidy.

The Department of Transport see it that way too:
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20060111.xml&Ex=All&Page=2

Mr. McCarthy wrote:

The peak hour issue with the PSO is that a significant demand exists to move people in mornings and evenings, for example, in Dublin. As the demand is not as high during the day, buses may not be required in the same numbers. The classic example involves buses that run in the morning but do not necessarily do so during the day because they do not have passengers. The cost to the State of each peak hour bus in Dublin is €100,000 per annum in subventions. Clearly, a commercial operator, having regard to his or her own interests, would only put on buses which were potentially profitable during the day.

bk

dub_commuter wrote: »

The arguments about privatization are that exactly this would happen. The private operators would only pick the profitable and busy routes and would not run vehicles at quieter times and would cherry pick the busier routes. If what you say is going to happen and we do this anyway, why should we not privatize?

Not if we follow the London bus model for privatization.

Basically all London buses are owned by one of 12 private companies, but most people don't know that, because it is all tightly controlled by the London Transport Authority.

Basically LTA put out contracts for tender for specifics routes. The LTA decide how many buses should run on the route, the schedule, bus stops, etc. If a route is unprofitable then they subsidise the route.

This all ensures that the Public Service Obligation on unprofitable routes is maintained, while benefiting from the efficiencies of private operators.

It is also worth noting that the LTA also specify the type and spec of buses used, the maintenance of them, the livery they carry (london bus), the tickets and machines used, the pricing and have a centralised site for timetables etc.

This way people get a constant experience and don't even realise they are using different private bus services.

This has all been very successful, so successful that they actually dropped the standard fare to 90c two years ago!!

So private bus services can be done very well, just not in the rubbish, half assed way that we do it here.

AlekSmart

bk ,Not if we follow the London bus model for privatization.

One thing is absolutely certain...Dublin will NOT be adopting the Transport for London regulatory model.

The principle reason.....COST.

London`s model of Public Transport Integration is without doubt one of the finest and most enduring in Europe.

However it should also be recognized that much of our actual and anecdotal experiences are from the Central Zones (1+2 In Oysterspeak).
TfL currently operates some 6,000 Buses throught the "Greater" London area and is most assuredly not immune to criticism in relation to Bus services in outlying areas as a quick trawl through any of the regional local papers will show.

It must also be borne in mind that to get to where London is today in Public Transport terms took much infighting and bloodletting and involved serious involvement from Central Government in terms of Policy Direction and Planning.

We as a nation simply DO NOT function in this manner. (Full Stop)

I am of the opinion that comparisons of TfL and Dublin are in fact frivolous and serve little real purpose.
Why..?
Simple really....Funding,thats why.

The UK in common with most of the developed world has a very widely based although controversial Local Taxation base.
It`s fair to say the any proposal to introduce a Poll Tax,Community Charge or to RE-introduce domestic rates would be immediately greeted by howls of derision and perhaps civil unrest.

Even if Irish Taxpayers were promised Buses with leather armchairs on a 4 minute frequency the plain people would have none of it.

TfL is currently in the midst of a serious funding problem and has already scaled back or postponed various projects and developments in an attempt to balance the books.

Fares are set to rise substantially in the post Ken Livingston era as his successor Boris Johnson gets to grip with the realities of a City firmly headed into recession.

However there are serious lessons to be learned from Ken Livingstons term at the helm of London Ltd.
By far and away the most valuable lesson is that there is NO substitute for having a City Administration with a clear and direct agreed Policy coupled with the Budget and Timeframe to impliment these.

Mr Livingston presided over several years of record growth in Bus "Ridership" (Sorry about the Americanism) by implementing some of the simplest Carrot & Stick operations yet seen.

The Congestion (C) Charge was the VERY large stick.
The Introduction of an Incredibly simple (In Irish Terms) Fare regeime coupled with serious discounting for electronic ticketing media (Oystercard) or pre-paid Travelcards.

This combination of itself was thought provoking enough to make a LOT of regular car users sit up and take note.
However the icing on the planning cake was the provision of Hundreds of extra Buses on a variety of well planned new routes IN ADVANCE of the C charge introduction.
So even the most cereberally challenged motorist found themselves simply overwhelemed by the sheer numbers of Buses being thrown into service onto the expanded network of Red Routes.

And guess what..It WORKS.

But short of the Irish Departments of Finance and Transport being taken hostage by a group of extremely sane persons it`s NOT going to happen here.

Its also worth noting that the TfL tendering model currently in use is the result of some Very substantial remodelling over its lifetime in order to bring the "Private Sector" companies into line with a centrally allocated funding system and it`s attendant seperate supervision and control operations.

Indeed,some may remember TfL having to introduce a special Mayoral payment of £5 per day to top-up the pay of London Busdrivers as the respective private companies cited lack of staff as reasons for failing to meet contractual targets.
Since the tenders had already been agreed the Mayors Office had to intervene directly and make the direct wage subsidy payment,which afaik continues to this day.

It is also worth bearing in mind that the one item Londons Public Transport does NOT have is......COMPETITION.
What it does have however is REGULATION.

The ever more strict nature of that REGULATORY frame work was but one element which led to the giant multinational Stagecoach Group to up sticks and dispose of its entire London Bus operations to a Venture Capital group.
Stagecoach cited its corporate dissaticfaction with returns on investment as one of the major reasons for concentrating its efforts on other less-regulated parts of the UK.

The financial and transport trade press have for years speculated on Stagecoach and FirstGroup,it`s major competitor,having a minimum requirement of an 18% return on it`s investment and this quite simply was not achievable in a short enough timeframe for its style of management.

The other major reason for TfL`s success was it`s recruitment of some of the best Public Transport Managerial Talent in the UK and providing them with a broad canvas to operate on.

Where are we at then I hear you cry....well we are at a place that would provide quite some material for the likes of Spike Milligan or for that matter Graham Linehan....

We are told by our Minister for Transport that he`s (Personally) "Not Convinced" that Dublin requires ANY extra Buses.

This revelation after his Department supposedly approves 200 EXTRA Buses for Bus Atha Cliath under various half-finished schemes such as the NDP 2000-2006 and Transport 21.

This week we are now told that Bus Atha Cliath plans to remove 100 buses from service in order to meet budgetary constraints.

Are we Ok so far class..??

Right Ted...Fast Forward to now...and to the words of a VERY substantial figure in Dublins Administration...Mr Tim Brick.

Mr Brick,speaking in the context of a T21 briefing on the Metro North


construction,warns that:

"The impacts (Of Metro construction) on the City are going to be dramatic"

"It is an enormous task to formulate a traffic management plan"

"The huge numbers of car trips generated in peak hour morning and afternoon will not be susatinable and will have to be replaced in the City Centre"

"The ONLY way these journeys can be replaced is by bolstering the Public Transport System"

"it requires a serious step-up in Public Transport capacity"

There ye have it... Confused ...If you`re not then you must be really mad.

Now only one of these men can be telling the truth,is it Minister Noel Dempsey or is it Mr Tim Brick ?

The other VERY pertinent revelation delivered by The Ministers representative on earth,Departmental Assistant Secretary Pat Mangan is that a definite commencement date for the Dublin Transport Authority "cannot be predicted",however Mr Mangan is "confident we will get it up and running THROUGH (more Americanisms) 2009"

It turns out that the shiny new DTA still does not have a Chief Executive in place and that "Discussions" with the Department of Finance have occurred within the last week.

Now we can gasbag all we want about Bus Atha Cliath,TfL,Moscowbus,BeijingBus,or as a letter writer to the Herald did last week Hong Kong Bus, but if our Top Level administrators are at such a vast level of divergence on the very BASIC matter of baseline service provision then we should not expect ANY improvement in our lifetimes.

I have spent over 30 years working in and around public transport in Dublin and I cannot remember our City having a set of Administrators who gave a Rats Ass about the topic.

Over those 3 decades all the City has had is a succession of lads who got a "Good Leaving" and managed to scrape a degree before entering the Civil Service where they then progressed rapidly upwards.

Thats what we still have in charge....The one common quality absent from all of them has been and continues to be that very simple yet necessary one of INTEREST.

It`s not there folks...in any way,shape or form.

For what it`s worth there are some well proven Brits (and Scots) folk now knocking around that might just have a plan.....Ken Livingston for one and a fellow called Neil Renilson (soon to retire as MD of Lothian Buses).

I would suggest that if the Dept of Finance has ANY real interest in getting value for their Euro they could do worse than wave a few at either of these Gentlemen...or perhaps get Fàs to make the approach on our behalf !!! :P

Sean9015

Ste.phen wrote: »

I'm sure one of the folks with the knowledge of DB's internal stuff will be along to remind us what happened to the GPS tracking system, but if i recall correctly, they trialled it successfully, and then the DOT blocked the rollout.

I'm nothing to do with Dublin Bus, but I am aware that a contract has been placed with German company INIT for a system wide GPS / real time information system. Brief dtails here :

http://www.init-ka.de/en/news/newsmeldung.php?id=211

Sean

markpb

crocro wrote: »

Dublin Bus look at GPS tracking and smart cards like they are putting a man on the moon, despite the fact that these systems have been running for decades elsewhere in places like hong kong.

Others have said it here (and you touched on it too) but it's worth saying again. You're dead right about DB not being able to manage a fleet without knowing where it is but:

1. DoT blocked the introduction of GPS system
2. DoT blocked the introduction of smart card ticketing
3. DoT did not do enough to force the introduction of integrated ticketing
4. DoT blocked the introduction of new medium/high frequency bus routes (the 141 for example)

I'm no huge fan of DB but 99% of their problems come from inaction by the government or local authorities.

KC61

Sean9015 wrote: »

I'm nothing to do with Dublin Bus, but I am aware that a contract has been placed with German company INIT for a system wide GPS / real time information system. Brief dtails here :

http://www.init-ka.de/en/news/newsmeldung.php?id=211

Sean

You are quite correct when you suggest that the DoT withdrew the funding for this system some years ago, and that is the reason for the delay. DB were fully in favour of it and ready to go, but the plug on funding was pulled.

The system is due to start rolling out in the second half of 2009 and the full rollout will run into the second half of 2010 for the bus location monitoring system, and the first half of 2011 for completion of the real time passenger information system.

antoinolachtnai

News to me. As far as I know, this project is shelved until the business issues are sorted out. I can't see there being a roll out in 2009.

icdg

bk wrote: »

Not if we follow the London bus model for privatization.

Basically all London buses are owned by one of 12 private companies, but most people don't know that, because it is all tightly controlled by the London Transport Authority./QUOTE]

Transport for London (before 2001, London Regional Transport) actually. It is one of the most publically controlled privatised transport network in the world, and is more akin to be called "outsourcing the running of the buses" rather than privatisation.

Its a good model, but as I said in another thread, the Budget and the Quango Cull has effectively put a stop on the DTA. The government will not want to be seen to be setting up another quango while they are trying to cull others.

dub_commuter

Just read a blog. And it seems Dublin Bus have already got the new tickets printed for next year for the price increases. And are crossing them out when issuing them before the fares actually go up. Which is rather odd.

Now I would hope that the government have approved these increases. Otherwise why get them printed before hand unless they are trying to force the hands of people to approve them. If they don't get the increases we could have more wasted money.

Also note response from Dublin Bus. If it's true what the blogger is saying. If any of my staff wrote an email like that, with no opening or closing to one of our customers I would deem it unacceptable.

http://cloudsteph.blogspot.com/2008/11/dublin-bus-fares-going-up-again.html

Ste.phen

dub_commuter wrote: »

Just read a blog. And it seems Dublin Bus have already got the new tickets printed for next year for the price increases. And are crossing them out when issuing them before the fares actually go up. Which is rather odd.

I noticed this a few weeks back and started a thread on it:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055417712


re: that blog post:

I moved to Dublin in July 2002. I have lived in the Glasnevin area (within the same bus fare zone) since then. In July 2002, the bus fare to town was €1.05. Today the same fare is €1.50. That's an increase of almost 43% in 6 years. CIE are reporting massive losses this year which may result in hundreds of job losses, service cutbacks & in some cases, route cancellations. And now it looks like fares on Dublin Bus (if not across the entire CIE network) are going up yet again. I want to know where's the justification? Fuel prices are falling daily so surely that can offset some of the decline in passenger numbers? Job cuts, route cuts, sale/rent of the 100 buses being withdrawn from service should help balance the books, shouldn't they?

43% over 6 years is his figure. Inflation would account for 27.7% anyways, not including (questionable) increases when the euro came in, and the above-inflation cost increases to Dublin Bus for staff,insurance,fuel, I don't think we've done too badly out of it...

dub_commuter

Ste.phen wrote: »

I noticed this a few weeks back and started a thread on it: 43% over 6 years is his figure. Inflation would account for 27.7% anyways, not including (questionable) increases when the euro came in, and the above-inflation cost increases to Dublin Bus for staff,insurance,fuel, I don't think we've done too badly out of it...

I never noticed, probably as I don't use those cards I agree with what you are saying about the fare. It's not huge. But it's not minor either. But the blog in question does make more out of it than they need to when they talk about the increases to date.

antoinolachtnai

The state subsidy has also increased over the period:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4926523.ece

The figure stated there doesn't include the capital grant. Last year the capital grant was 20m, bringing the subsidy per trip up to 68c.

This year, the subsidy and the fare increased again, even though the number of passengers carried will be 4 percent less than last year.

There will be a further increase in the subsidy next year, even though there will be higher fares and fewer buses on the road, as a result of which the number of passengers will decrease even further.

crocro

markpb wrote: »

Others have said it here (and you touched on it too) but it's worth saying again. You're dead right about DB not being able to manage a fleet without knowing where it is but:

1. DoT blocked the introduction of GPS system
2. DoT blocked the introduction of smart card ticketing
3. DoT did not do enough to force the introduction of integrated ticketing
4. DoT blocked the introduction of new medium/high frequency bus routes (the 141 for example)

I'm no huge fan of DB but 99% of their problems come from inaction by the government or local authorities.

The DoT and the local authority transport people have guranteed job tenure so working is optional. Few of them ever use a bus. Even with the new parking levy, they'll be paying just 200 euro a year for a perk with a net value of 2,400 euro a year, paid for by you and me. This is unlikely to change and it is not the fault of civil servants. If I had a job with optional work and super subsidised parking, I'd be driving into the office every day and taking years to make any decisions.

http://uncivilservant.com/news_reports/civil_servants_11m_bill_for_free_parking.html

T Corolla

There has been a rail fair increase in the short hop faires but there was no fair increase in the Commuter fares as of yet. I look extencivly online and have found no information about this. Last year there was a 90c increase in the Mullingar to Connolly and the level of service increase from eighteen sevices to twenty four services a day. The fairs did not change at any time during 2008 and in fact they introduce a 10 euros day return last May that ran until September 1 which was very popular with young people. IMO that was a low increase for an vastly improved service.

bazzer

It's just not fair.

AlekSmart

It`s interesting to point out that in the aftermath of the Euro Changeover Bus Atha Cliath fares actually reduced by a small percentage.

This flew totally counter to the long established Irish practice of fleecing people at every opportunity as was evidenced in other retail areas post E-Day. :eek:

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

News to me. As far as I know, this project is shelved until the business issues are sorted out. I can't see there being a roll out in 2009.

I'm not sure that you are correct. Contracts have already been signed for this and the project is therefore going ahead. I would be very surprised if this were put on hold.

While the extra 100 buses that Dublin Bus were looking for have been put on hold pending completion of the efficiency review, and there are now suggestions of another 100 buses being pulled off the roads, I really cannot see why this project would not go ahead.

The Automatic Vehicle Location and Control (AVLC) element of this project is an absolutely essential tool for Dublin Bus to improve delivery of its service and to accurately control the fleet. The current system of calling drivers over the radio to ascertain their location is certainly not conducive to effectively controlling a fleet of 1200 buses.

patrickbrophy18

markpb wrote: »

(the 141 for example)

What is this? 141?