Did an atheist ever make you feel really upset?

midlandsmissus

Just talking to a few atheists there

And I REALLY wasnt forcing anything on them, just explaining my point, and I couldn't believe how bad I felt talking to them. Just the things they were saying struck me to my very core, and made me feel really bad.

Do you think this is God working? I mean like, we feel his sorrow for them?

rockbeer

Might this be because you know deep in your heart that they are telling you the truth?

Perhaps you're feeling the pain of growing up and realizing that there really is no supernatural saviour. Like discovering santa isn't real, but much, much worse.

AtomicHorror

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Just talking to a few atheists there

And I REALLY wasnt forcing anything on them, just explaining my point, and I couldn't believe how bad I felt talking to them. Just the things they were saying struck me to my very core, and made me feel so bad.

Do you think this is God working? I mean like, we feel his sorrow for them?

I hope you won't mind an atheist comment on this. It's possible that I'm off the mark here.

If, as I suspect, you're talking about the thread on A&A, you went in there with a question. You got answers. I know they're not very nice answers, but we just happen to think they're true. I don't think atheists have any business seeking out religious people to argue against, but you started the thread on A&A yourself. The ensuing debate is always going to go right to the heart of what atheism is- skepticism of the unobservable and immeasurable. All I can say is, if you don't like the answers you're getting you must either come to terms with them or stop asking the questions.

AtomicHorror

rockbeer wrote: »

Might this be because you know deep in your heart that they are telling you the truth?

I think it's a given that this would be our position. We probably don't want to get into that argument here. This is not our place.

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

the things they were saying struck me to my very core, and made me feel really bad.

How do you mean made you "feel really bad"? Could you explain a bit more?

Nodin

People will say things to you via a message board that they might not say to you as quickly in real life - certainly not if they don't know you that well. This takes some getting used to. Likewise what you might accept, others don't, and would be suprised that anyone does (and vice versa). In time you'll develop a tougher skin.

rockbeer

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I think it's a given that this would be our position. We probably don't want to get into that argument here. This is not our place.

Perhaps you're right. I'm not looking for an argument about it but I thought it was a reasonable point to make. Let's see how MM responds, but I've no intention of getting into a scrap with her.

JimiTime

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Just talking to a few atheists there

And I REALLY wasnt forcing anything on them, just explaining my point, and I couldn't believe how bad I felt talking to them. Just the things they were saying struck me to my very core, and made me feel really bad.

Do you think this is God working? I mean like, we feel his sorrow for them?

I can give share my own view here. I think many of us can be condescending in our approach to others who don't share our faith. (Not saying you are, but sometimes we don't realise we are). Also, in relation to sorrow. I don't think I have ever 'truly' felt sorrow at a stranger rejecting God. I know there was a time when I pretended I did, but I copped on that I was lying to myself. I was convincing myself that I was feeling this way because I thought that thats the way I should feel. On the fllip side though, I am truly delighted when someone accepts Christ.

My advice, take a look at your approach and ask yourself if you you 'appear' self righteous. Ask yourself what your goal in the conversation is. Never be afraid to back out if its obvious your goal is unattainable. Don't be disheartened, we all have lots to learn. We don't automatically 'know' more about Christianity than unbelievers. What we have, or should have, is Love, Faith and Hope. Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up.

Thats my two cent, relative to my experience. Hopefully there is something in there that can help.

Fanny Cradock

rockbeer wrote: »

Perhaps you're right. I'm not looking for an argument about it

Good. Because I wont allow this thread to go down that route.

As robin requested, MM needs to elaborate a little more. As I see it, you are either discussing your beliefs being shaken by counter arguments, or are you taken aback by the passionate belief (sometimes forcefully argued) of some that there is no God.

AtomicHorror

Nodin wrote: »

People will say things to you via a message board that they might not say to you as quickly in real life - certainly not if they don't know you that well. This takes some getting used to. Likewise what you might accept, others don't, and would be suprised that anyone does (and vice versa). In time you'll develop a tougher skin.

Quite right. Sadly, a tough skin really is needed when using internet message boards and the like. It's rather like road rage. It's very easy to be aggressive when you don't have to look someone in the eye.

Zombrex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Did an atheist ever make you feel really upset?

my ex-girlfriend was an atheist .... stupid *@!!** ... but I digress ... :pac:

perhaps, as Robin suggested, you should expand a bit more on what you mean by "feel really upset"

Do you mean that the things non-believers said here made you question your belief, which made you upset. Or did you feel they were laughing at your belief, or perhaps you felt bad for them for not believing?

CiDeRmAn

I think people posting should be careful when addressing something as heartfelt as religous beliefs, they are such a personal, subjective thing, I try to warn when asked a question I know will have a contentious answer and try to ask, are you sure you want to go there?
My opinions are, inevitably, just as subjective as everyone elses, and as such prone to being hurt.
I would ultimately argue that here, on boards.ie, you sre going to find discussion and debate, opposing points of view, support and disagreement, all meant to use friction to generate interesting discussion.

I'm sure there are plenty of Presbyterians insulted by CofE, CofE insulted by Calvinists, Calvinists by Methodists, Methodists by Catholics and so on, I don't think you have to go as far from the christian fold as atheists to find dissent and often upsetting points of view.

The Mad Hatter

Also, tone can be completely misread on an internet forum. You can say something jokingly and have it picked up angrily.

AtomicHorror

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Also, tone can be completely misread on an internet forum. You can say something jokingly and have it picked up angrily.

Maybe... you should EMOTE BOMB!!!1 :eek::D:pac::pac:

The Mad Hatter

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Maybe... you should EMOTE BOMB!!!1 :eek::D:pac::pac:

Ugh, and look like J C?

Edit: Also, I'm not just referring to myself. The number of times I've seen people post something which I thought was quite clearly sardonic or satirical in tone and receive a chain of responses condemning them is surprising.

Rev Hellfire

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I think people posting should be careful when addressing something as heartfelt as religous beliefs, they are such a personal, subjective thing, I try to warn when asked a question I know will have a contentious answer and try to ask, are you sure you want to go there?

tbh people have to take a bit of responsibility here, if you willingly walk into the lions den, you can't profess to be shocked that you where bitten.

Dades

Alao, midlandsmissus, please also don't take your experiences with an online atheist persona as representative of atheists in general.

They're as likely to be pushing their kids on the swings in the park, as arguing over the net!

TravelJunkie

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Just talking to a few atheists there

And I REALLY wasnt forcing anything on them, just explaining my point, and I couldn't believe how bad I felt talking to them. Just the things they were saying struck me to my very core, and made me feel really bad.

Do you think this is God working? I mean like, we feel his sorrow for them?

I don't know what you were talking about with atheists, but I think I know what you're trying to describe.

When you become a christian you the holy spirit renews you (and so you always as a christian have the holy spirit). The holy spirit can talk to you, reveal scripture, move you, warn you. If something offends Jesus or the holy spirit, it will offend you inside.

BrianCalgary

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I hope you won't mind an atheist comment on this. It's possible that I'm off the mark here.

If, as I suspect, you're talking about the thread on A&A, you went in there with a question. You got answers. I know they're not very nice answers, but we just happen to think they're true. I don't think atheists have any business seeking out religious people to argue against, but you started the thread on A&A yourself. The ensuing debate is always going to go right to the heart of what atheism is- skepticism of the unobservable and immeasurable. All I can say is, if you don't like the answers you're getting you must either come to terms with them or stop asking the questions.

Funny isn't it. I agree go on to the AA forum, you ar eopening yourself up.

But then you say this: I don't think atheists have any business seeking out religious people to argue against,

and here you are on a Christian thread seeking to argue.

AtomicHorror

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Funny isn't it. I agree go on to the AA forum, you ar eopening yourself up.

But then you say this: I don't think atheists have any business seeking out religious people to argue against,

and here you are on a Christian thread seeking to argue.

And what exactly have I said about your faith?

condra

MM are you implying that all atheists have a similar personality type?
You probably weren't but the title is a bit suggestive

I've read a few of your posts and admire your unfaltering manners but I get the impression you might be quite sensitive.
People, from all backgrounds, can be real A-holes on the internet, but I don't think anyone would really want to upset you, for being a person of faith, or any other reason.
I think over time, we sensitive people tend to develop tougher "cyber skins".

Peace and hugs from me.

seamus

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I think people posting should be careful when addressing something as heartfelt as religous beliefs, they are such a personal, subjective thing, I try to warn when asked a question I know will have a contentious answer and try to ask, are you sure you want to go there?

I disagree entirely. Where someone exposes their position (on any topic) to debate, they should be prepared to defend that position, regardless of how offended the other person makes them feel. You should be capable of defending your religious belief in the same way that you should be capable of justifying who you voted for in the last election.

The rider I would tack onto that is that nobody should be subject to *having* to defend themselves unless they've made themselves open to the debate.

Or as the Rev. said more concisely

lostexpectation

oh woe is missus

midlandsmissus

Thanks for all the replies. And thanks womoma it's nice to hear my manners aren't too bad!

It definitely wasnt a 'their arguments are making me have doubts' kind of sadness. I just felt this weird kind of sorrow. It actually sounds a bit mad now writing about it because I can't really explain it so i think I'll shut up about it now! Anyway it's passed so i think I have developed a tougher skin!:)

Nodin

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Anyway it's passed so i think I have developed a tougher skin!:)

Excellent. I might point out that admitting that a post has gotten to you acts much the same way as blood in the water - it attracts the predators and creates something of a feeding frenzy. Where theres a more hands off approach to moderation, this can be a rather rough experience. Something to bear in mind perhaps, if you're on other boards.

Handsome Bob

When I was a Catholic, or even now as an agnostic, I never had my nose put out of joint by the beliefs in itself of Atheists. Rather, I would get pissed off if I sensed in their tone that they were being

• Patronising
• Condescending
• Anger, which usually meant shouting down at someone. If the other person did not raise their voice, then the atheist felt that he had "won".

But hey, I can easily say that about any religious fundatmentalists. You'll find these types of people in all walks of life. Being rational, reasonable or respectable to your fellow man is not exclusive to any one group.

achtungbarry

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I think people posting should be careful when addressing something as heartfelt as religous beliefs.

I have to say that I respectfully disagree here. People are free (as they should be) to critisise political viewpoints, the actions of our elected officials, ideologies such as racism etc.

Why should religion be above critisism ?

Why do we seem to act as if religion is the one thing we may not speak ill of ?

I believe that we can respect the believer without respecting the belief.

AtomicHorror

achtungbarry wrote: »

I have to say that I respectfully here. People are free (as they should be) to critisise political viewpoints, the actions of our elected officials, ideologies such as racism etc.

Why should religion be above critisism ?

Why do we seem to act as if religion is the one thing we may not speak ill of ?

I believe that we can respect the believer without respecting the belief.

That's Dawkins talking.

The reason religion is different to political systems and ideologies is because religion is typically more fundamental to the emotional well-being and perhaps survival of a person than any of these things are. The value placed upon them by people is typically greater on average. It is arguable that there are those who need religion. Thus, whether we agree with their beliefs or not, we have to consider the emotional well being, the psychological well being, of people assuming we value these things. If we would claim that we a attack a person's religion for their benefit, we are placing value on their well-being and thus it would be hypocritical to dismiss the full extent of what that entails. Perhaps this does not rule out criticism of religion, but the difference is real and obvious. Religion is not about policy or ideology. It is about how people look at life and death.

I see no issue with telling people exactly what we do know. Evidence for things. I see no issue with contradicting statements designed to inform morality or policy if we can show them to be false. And of course if we can see net harm in a given religion or practices within it, then we may feel compelled to attack it. But this is not the same thing as attacking any and all religions, nor attacking their core beliefs.

ChocolateSauce

I know the feeling OP, I've done the same thing as you -started threads of messageboards regarding issues on which I thought (and still think) I was right, and got hammered. Even if you have confidence in your beliefs it can be frazzling to take fire from all sides, especially if it is organised and articulate. I felt terrible for days and I don't know why really.

Also, people on the internet are far harsher than in RL. I hate discussing religion in person because it's so touchy and I'd much rather just get along. I hope the next time you meet an atheist you realise this and don't brace for attack.

Splendour

From the Sermon on the Mount, Luke 6,22

'Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.'

Now we realise it's not quite as dramatic as this on Boards midlandmissus, but if you are rejected by non believers when talking about Jesus you are indeed blest...

Whispered

I learned that to go into the A&A forum is opening yourself up. I am not a christian, I don't believe in god, but do hold "non-athiest" beliefs.

I've actually found most of them to be quite nice, (:eek:) once you are prepared to: not try convert them, not condescend to them or try make them accept personal experience as "evidence"

In saying that you get A-holes in all walks of life, one or two members of the forum are definately anti-theist and WILL agressively try to upset and undermine you. (You know who you are ). And to be challenged even in threads that have nothing to do with your belief is offputting but for the most part the forum is very well moderated, and TBH when you ask a question in there, you have to be prepared to have it answered.

achtungbarry

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Religion is not about policy or ideology. It is about how people look at life and death.

Really ? Religion is not about policy or ideology... in Iran, Saudi Arabia, George Bush's America ?

There is no valid reason that religion should be above critique.

Any organisation or belief system or ideology that believes itself to be above critique is dangerous.

History has held this to be true.

AtomicHorror

achtungbarry wrote: »

Really ? Religion is not about policy or ideology... in Iran, Saudi Arabia, George Bush's America ?

It certainly extends to those things if allowed. But that's an argument for greater secularism, not attacking religion itself.

philologos

OP I'd never say I was upset by them. However I have been frustrated at times, particularly when the tone of the argument gets out of line. As long as a discussion on faith is kept in check, it's generally fine.

barfizz

AtomicHorror wrote: »

That's Dawkins talking.

Do you use this a some sort of flag:
Hey everyone, look out! they're attacking religion, aaaaahhhhHHHHHHH
stop, stop, stop,
Won't someone please think of the children...

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The reason religion is different to political systems and ideologies is because religion is typically more fundamental to the emotional well-being and perhaps survival of a person than any of these things are.

It's not, if you believe in something and openly profess it, be it religion, politics, sport... you should be open to discussion and open debate, to adopt a phrase, "nothing is sacred":)

AtomicHorror

barfizz wrote: »

Do you use this a some sort of flag:
Hey everyone, look out! they're attacking religion, aaaaahhhhHHHHHHH
stop, stop, stop,
Won't someone please think of the children...

What the hell are you talking about? Is that meant to be a coherent argument? I'm not saying you can't attack religion, I'm explaining why I don't.

barfizz wrote: »

It's not, if you believe in something and openly profess it, be it religion, politics, sport... you should be open to discussion and open debate, to adopt a phrase, "nothing is sacred":)

Yes, and if a person is openly professing religion then I'll contradict them where there is evidence to contradict them. But that's not at all what I was talking about. I was highlighting the difference between what religion means to people versus what politics and the like means to them. The point I am making is that this must be a consideration for those who attack religion. Contradict professed statements by all means, but don't be so arrogant as to pursue the quiet, non-confrontational faithful because you think they'll be better off as atheists.

Húrin

No; most atheists I find in life repeat the same cliched, misinformed, outdated and refutable arguments over and again.

Atheists make me feel upset sometimes, out of compassion for them and so I try to do what I can.

rockbeer wrote: »

Might this be because you know deep in your heart that they are telling you the truth?

Perhaps you're feeling the pain of growing up and realizing that there really is no supernatural saviour. Like discovering santa isn't real, but much, much worse.

As this poster revealed to us already, she grew up and discovered there is a saviour.

CerebralCortex

Húrin wrote: »

No; most atheists I find in life repeat the same cliched, misinformed, outdated and refutable arguments over and again.

Atheists make me feel upset sometimes, out of compassion for them and so I try to do what I can.


As this poster revealed to us already, she grew up and discovered there is a saviour.

Whoa now who's being condescending? :eek:

CDfm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

And what exactly have I said about your faith?

That is true AH - we do disagree on threads and you are always respectful to my beliefs and I have found the same with most posters A&A.

CDfm

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Just talking to a few atheists there

And I REALLY wasnt forcing anything on them, just explaining my point, and I couldn't believe how bad I felt talking to them. Just the things they were saying struck me to my very core, and made me feel really bad.

Do you think this is God working? I mean like, we feel his sorrow for them?

MM - your belief is something for you not them.
Its a way of life. Mostly beliefs wont come up if you dont raise the issue.

If stuff comes up and you dont want to discuss - just say that and dont try to justify yourself.
Most decent people will respect your beliefs and those who dont are vprobably not your friends.

A few years back a friend of my ex used to come around and was deliberately blasphemous regularily in my home. I tried politeness but nowdays I would tell someone to p### off as I would would any horrible person.

rockbeer

CDfm wrote: »

Most decent people will respect your beliefs and those who dont are vprobably not your friends.

CDfm, there is world of a difference between respecting a belief and respecting somebody's right to hold it. From the tone of your post that's something you maybe need to think about.

Some of my best friends are christians but I don't respect their christian beliefs in the least.

Would you 'respect the belief' of somebody who believed christians should be put to death?

CDfm wrote: »

A few years back a friend of my ex used to come around and was deliberately blasphemous regularily in my home. I tried politeness but nowdays I would tell someone to p### off as I would would any horrible person.

How exactly does telling someone to 'p### off' show respect for their belief that what you call blasphemy is simply a form of linguistic expression? It sounds to me as though perhaps you think only christian beliefs deserve respect.

CDfm

rockbeer wrote: »

CDfm, there is world of a difference between respecting a belief and respecting somebody's right to hold it. From the tone of your post that's something you maybe need to think about.

Some of my best friends are christians but I don't respect their christian beliefs in the least.

Would you 'respect the belief' of somebody who believed christians should be put to death?



How exactly does telling someone to 'p### off' show respect for their belief that what you call blasphemy is simply a form of linguistic expression? It sounds to me as though perhaps you think only christian beliefs deserve respect.

Rockbeer - sorry- I meant this in the context of MMs situation.

Of course, you are right to point out that beliefs that harm others or yourself are unhealthy.

A question for you - do you have faith debates with your Christian friends -rarely I imagine you talk about the football or whatever I imagine. I have atheist friends and non christian friends. Faith discussions are rare.

Myself, I look at my beliefs as personal - and I dont make a habit of sticking around religious arguments which are not productive.

Posting and discussing faith issues on boards is much different and its very balanced and courteous. I have no probs posting in A&A for that reason.

CD

miss no stars

achtungbarry wrote: »

I have to say that I respectfully disagree here. People are free (as they should be) to critisise political viewpoints, the actions of our elected officials, ideologies such as racism etc.

Why should religion be above critisism ?

Why do we seem to act as if religion is the one thing we may not speak ill of ?

I believe that we can respect the believer without respecting the belief.

I hold no belief in God yet I would NEVER criticise or try to argue with someone about their beliefs unless it were to occur that their beliefs started to impinge on me/make statements about me; at which point I might feel the need to stand up for myself.

A few years ago I found myself witness to a friend of mine (very strong catholic faith) being subjected to what I would call nothing less than ridicule from another friend (an atheist in her wording, but I would say anti-theist). I didn't intervene at the time as all it would have done was to escalate things but it was the most horrific thing I've seen, I'd have called it bullying tbh.

So, why should people respect other people's beliefs and why should religious belief be above criticism?

Because it's what people hold dearest. It's the foundation on which people build their lives, because that's how they see themselves as fitting in in the world.

To quote W.B.Yeats (albeit not in the same context), "Tread carefully because you tread on my dreams."

AtomicHorror

Húrin wrote: »

No; most atheists I find in life repeat the same cliched, misinformed, outdated and refutable arguments over and again.

Atheists make me feel upset sometimes, out of compassion for them and so I try to do what I can.

As this poster revealed to us already, she grew up and discovered there is a saviour.

Patronising.

One person, "grew up" and discovered faith. I grew up and discovered a lie. I guess it's not about growing up.

BlindedByGInge

Atheist ressponse upset you eh?

Pulp Fiction quote:
"Jules: If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions"

CDfm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I guess it's not about growing up.

are you slagging of my science aptitude again;)

ChocolateSauce

miss no stars wrote: »

So, why should people respect other people's beliefs and why should religious belief be above criticism?

Because it's what people hold dearest. It's the foundation on which people build their lives, because that's how they see themselves as fitting in in the world.

(I notice the factuality of those beliefs is apparently irrelevant, only that they are heartfelt is what matters. How Sunday School.)

So just because someone believes something means it should be above criticism? I strongly disagree. Avoiding hurting someone's feelings is a dangerous reason to put anything above criticism. If that foundation is not only false, but also dangerous, should it be above criticism? Should we not criticise militant Muslims who would murder for their religion? Should we not criticise hateful evangelicals who attack homosexuals? Yes we should, and no belief of anyone should ever, ever be above criticism. Without criticism, how would they be kept in check? Kept sharp, as it were? In society, when the government is above criticism it leads to dictatorship. When the Catholic church was above criticism, it lead to a thousand years of tyranny, the suppression of free will and science and the inquisition of generations of people who didn't agree with the accepted dogma.

I criticise that assumption.

miss no stars

criticising the belief is a very different matter to criticising acts of atrocity carried out in the name of the belief.

Who are you to say one person's belief is wrong? Are you all knowing?

CDfm

miss no stars wrote: »

criticising the belief is a very different matter to criticising acts of atrocity carried out in the name of the belief.

Who are you to say one person's belief is wrong? Are you all knowing?

If a belief system harms someone else or yourself it can be unhealthy.

I dont know if Chocolatesauce was posting a humanist position and taking western mores into account but it is a fair point.

If someones beliefs are benign I cant see why they cant believe what they choose -Im catholic BTW.

miss no stars

CDfm wrote: »

If a belief system harms someone else or yourself it can be unhealthy.

I dont know if Chocolatesauce was posting a humanist position and taking western mores into account but it is a fair point.

If someones beliefs are benign I cant see why they cant believe what they choose -Im catholic BTW.

A lot of people chose Islam as an easy target. I've a relative who was born in Turkey and has been Muslim his whole life and I can honestly say he's one of the most placid and peaceful people I know.

While yes, I would criticise the most of the Jihad element of that, on the whole, Islam is just another religion.

Personally I would see "Jihad" - or what has been passed off as it in recent times - as a convenient excuse for violence and aggression. Any Muslims I've met are quite embarrassed. Maybe I've met a minority.

edit: forgot to mention, as I said the acts are different to the beliefs.

ChocolateSauce

miss no stars wrote: »

A lot of people chose Islam as an easy target. I've a relative who was born in Turkey and has been Muslim his whole life and I can honestly say he's one of the most placid and peaceful people I know.

While yes, I would criticise the most of the Jihad element of that, on the whole, Islam is just another religion.

Personally I would see "Jihad" - or what has been passed off as it in recent times - as a convenient excuse for violence and aggression. Any Muslims I've met are quite embarrassed. Maybe I've met a minority.

edit: forgot to mention, as I said the acts are different to the beliefs.

Now you're just backtracking. You said a belief should not be above criticism because it is held dear. Radical Muslims hold their beliefs dear. Ergo, militant Islam (the kind that thinks infidels should be put to death) should be above criticism. I'm not picking on them by merely mentioning them. Most of my post dealt with Christianity (that is the forum we're in).

It doesn't matter how "bad" the belief may be, it shouldn't be above criticism. I'm not saying it should be criticised (who would bother criticising a nice, placid unitarian?), only that it should not be above it if it should come to it.

Who am I to criticise someone's beliefs? I'm a person with opinions. I'd never dream of asking someone not to criticise me because my feelings might be hurt. If criticism is due, it is due. If it is not, it can rebuked.