Motor Trade RIP (1888-2008)

cowenstaff

Sadly missed by all who served and availed of this industry, after providing years of transport facilities for the country and also wages for tens of thousands.

The Industry as we have known it has been obliterated over the last 12 months - 2009 will bring nothing more but redundancies and closures.

When the trade is resurrected over the next decade, retailers as we know them will be replaced by corporate robots with cockney accents, with all profits landing in the middle east.

cantdecide

In before the snip

ARGINITE

cowenstaff wrote: »

Sadly missed by all who served and availed of this industry,

Not by those who were ripped of by the extortionist prices.

Anan1

cowenstaff wrote: »

Sadly missed by all who served and availed of this industry, after providing years of transport facilities for the country and also wages for tens of thousands.

The Industry as we have known it has been obliterated over the last 12 months - 2009 will bring nothing more but redundancies and closures.

When the trade is resurrected over the next decade, retailers as we know them will be replaced by corporate robots with cockney accents, with all profits landing in the middle east.

Good riddance, for the most part.

neacy69

IMO and I dont want to start an arguement here but the motor industry has nobody to blame but themselves.....


actually thats a bit harsh its not all their own fault by they definitely didn't help themselves over the last 3/4 years by trying to gouge every penny out of potential customers...

Ferris

Companies and individuals will still buy cars just not in the numbers that the motor industry has become accustomed to.

People will find better prices for maintaining their cars with independant mechanics rather than overpriced dealers.

Its a much needed clearout of the Irish motor industry. The good and the reasonable people in the industry will remain.

E92

Main dealers are a rip off (€100+ per hour labour rates for a service ffs, I wouldn't mind but mechanics are on sh!t pay) and don't even do a good job in general(probably because mechanics are getting paid on the grounds that it is a very hands on job whereas these days it requires a lot of technical knowledge and knowledge of diagnostic machines etc).

They're giving you a rubbish trade in or not taking even fairly new cars as trade ins(personally I'd prefer to be told that my trade in is not wanted than be given SFA for it) BUT they're still selling used cars for the same prices as what cars were selling for at the start of the year.

So they've dropped the trade in price but they haven't dropped the sticker price at all.

And then they wonder why people are going to the UK to buy cars, not buying and generally p!$$ed off with them?

Of course the current exchange rates mean that it is very easy to save by going to the UK, but even if the exchange rates were closer to what they were before the UK looks after cars MUCH better than we do, and they go for higher spec cars with bigger/more powerful engines.

Of course this is entirely outside of dealer's control.

For some really sad reason plenty of people think that you sohuold put all your eggs in one basket and just buy a new car, anything as long as you can boast to your friends that you've got an 08 or 09 or whatever.

But it should not be so expensive to get your car serviced at a main dealer, it just is plain wrong, simple as.

bazz26

I take no pleasure though from seeing the honest folks in the motor trade who may well be out of a job early next year. Few and far between they are but they are still there.

Like in the building industry these folks will be the first to go while alot of the big fat cat dealers have their wealth to soften their fall.

TheBazman

What would happen if EUR/GBP went for 0.85 to 1.00 or 1.20? There wouldnt be a car sold in the country! Just after hearing of someone who picked up a 2006 motor in the UK for 13k (all in with VRT) versus the cheapest on carzone of 23k.

mickdw

I cant understand why these dealers dont flush out this existing stock at a loss. Its not going to become more valuable, thats a certainty.
They would then at least be in a better position to do business come the new year.
I see a dealer with 06 audi A6s lined up and priced in the region of 40K. You could probably buy a new one (current model) now for that with the new model coming.

HashSlinging

+1

Except those who were guilty of price fixing.! Cant believe Citroen won car of the year.. :eek:

biko

Bye dealers

Owen

E92 wrote: »

So they've dropped the trade in price but they haven't dropped the sticker price at all.

Not so! The place I work has dropped a few thousand off their cars every 2 months.

E92 wrote: »

But it should not be so expensive to get your car serviced at a main dealer, it just is plain wrong, simple as.

At the risk of being lynched by the anti dealer mob, how do you think Garages make money these days? It's not on new cars because new car deals have been making very small profits over the past few years, and it's not usually on used cars either, because nearly every marque has an approved scheme now (Mercedes Starselect, BMW Premium Selection, Toyota Dealer Cover) that require a hell of a lot of money be spent on preparing the car for sale in the quest to make it better than new cosmetically and mechanically.

Also, the equipment being used in workshops is horrendously expensive. Sit down and think for 5 minutes just how much it costs to setup a workshop, you have 10 ramps, a compressor and it's plumbing, a central oil delivery system, a tracking machine (The place I worked in last had one that cost 180k and was specified by the manufacturer, so they had no choice but to buy it), diagnostic machines that do quite literally cost the earth, and of course, wages for all staff involved which if you have 10 ramps, is usually 10 technicians/apprentices, 2 service advisors, a parts manager, a dedicated service valetor, and usually, a parts person for service only. Then add the cost of training, and that's not cheap, special tools which are mandatory from the manufacturer, and then you also have lighting and heating (Which is expensive in a large, airy workshop).

Servicing itself in terms of labour is still cheap, but the majority of an hour's labour goes into paying all these costs, and repaying all the equipment that's on hire purchase. If you don't want those things, go to an independent. It's your money, and it's your choice.

Ferris

ned78 wrote: »

Also, the equipment being used in workshops is horrendously expensive. Sit down and think for 5 minutes just how much it costs to setup a workshop, you have 10 ramps, a compressor and it's plumbing, a central oil delivery system, a tracking machine (The place I worked in last had one that cost 180k and was specified by the manufacturer, so they had no choice but to buy it), diagnostic machines that do quite literally cost the earth, and of course, wages for all staff involved which if you have 10 ramps, is usually 10 technicians/apprentices, 2 service advisors, a parts manager, a dedicated service valetor, and usually, a parts person for service only. Then add the cost of training, and that's not cheap, special tools which are mandatory from the manufacturer, and then you also have lighting and heating (Which is expensive in a large, airy workshop).

You think with all that equipment they'd be able to do an oil change in under 2hrs:rolleyes:!

Unless of course it only takes 20mins and they false bill, sure that would never happen.

Owen

Are you saying you're billed for 2 hours, or waiting for 2 hours? What's usually described as an oil change service also includes lots of other checks too. People always forget that.

This thread is going to spiral downwards quite quickly. You'll have the usual people in screaming that Dealers are all out to take first borns away, independent mechanics claiming they can do the work at half the cost in their own smaller premises (Duh!), and the employed Dealer staff trying to justify it to people who just don't want to listen, or keep an open mind.

Yes some Dealers take the piss, but not all.

Mitch Connor

ned78 wrote: »

Are you saying you're billed for 2 hours, or waiting for 2 hours? What's usually described as an oil change service also includes lots of other checks too. People always forget that.

This thread is going to spiral downwards quite quickly. You'll have the usual people in screaming that Dealers are all out to take first borns away, independent mechanics claiming they can do the work at half the cost in their own smaller premises (Duh!), and the employed Dealer staff trying to justify it to people who just don't want to listen, or keep an open mind.

Yes some Dealers take the piss, but not all.

Yeah but, no but, yeah but....

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

Berty

Although they have been ripping people off for years.

The VRT system aka government has also been ripping off dealers and consumers.

The franichisee has to build unbelievably expensive dealerships just to sell their cars.

I feel sorry for anybody who is going to lose their job. The fat cat owner might suffer also. I know some business owners who are paying staff on credit cards. Its madness.

Although they have essentially stabbed themselves in the foot by putting their heads in the sand and not perceiving this situation might occur, Im sure many of us are guilty of it.

Wait until the system completely crumbles and then abolish the VRT because, heck, the system will be screwed then anyway.

Drummerboy08

Have to agree with Ned here. Too many people too quick to jump the gun against the dealers. If all the dealers go down the tube, it means not only all the dealer staff and their families are in trouble, but also the other businesses who depend on motor dealers for alot of business - Bodyshops, tyre centres, motor factors, finance houses, etc. Now look at all the people suddenly in trouble.

We should really start supporting irish dealers and irish businesses in general, instead of giving out about the state of the irish economy - and then going over the border or to the UK and spending your money over there.

Its a vicious circle at the minute.

I'm just gonna sit here and wait for the torrent of abuse to begin now.:rolleyes:

cowenstaff

Well argued Ned.

All industries have different levels of service/products - e.g mcdonalds to Shanahans on the green (ingrediance cost the same). If an independant repairer keeps you happy - work away - they will usually shy away from the new stuff as the equipment needed is very expensive - hence the dearer cost of labour in main dealers.

Its amazing how intelligent sane people loose the plot when it comes ot cars, you shell out €20,000 for a new motor and 12 motnhs down the line you moan about €400 for a service, what would you pay to have your washing machine fixed? How much is it for IT to rebuild your lap top following a virus? think about the overheads for these two services - a fraction of a workshop/showroom.

It has always disappointment me of the Irish attitude to construction and motors trades, its smells of begrudgery and cute whore syndrome. The VRT not being paid by all the smart alecs on yellow plates would go a long way to keeping VAT @21 instead of 21.5%.


In general the motor trade has paid some employees well because of skill needs, increasing costs, which as with every other industry ultimately are passed on to the consumer.

The Motor indusrty is on a par with the construction industry and hotels for "hassle" in jobs - any body moving from these industries into other businesses e.g banking, civil service have always excelled on the back of good training and tough experiences. Ive come across many "college" boys and girls or ex bank/insurance people that have run away from careers in the contruction/motor industry after a few months, they couldn't believe how tough it was.

Beware, these people will be in high demand for other industries next year, the recruitment companies are well aware of this - I hope you all dont get too comfortable!

Berty

Sorry Drummer but the finance houses should be scalded, not supported.

Dealers are up in arms because they have perfectly good customers coming into their dealerships for new cars and looking for finance.

The finance houses have locked up the vaults and will not give out financing in, as the dealers say, 2/3rds of the time they apply.

green-blood

bought new for first time ever in Sept 07, 2 months later some sandal wearing twat knocks 3 K off the new price and charges 180 a year less in road tax... recessionand low demand for 07 diesels means my car is worth half of what we paid.... The main dealer is a feckin joke

however long may the crash continue. we were always keeping this 5 years,so the less new cars sold in the next 2 years the better for my resale.

my one year warranty is up (vs 3 yeaars in the UK) so no more main dealer servicing for me.

Drummerboy08

I'd agree about the finance houses alright - they arent helping the matter at all. I've had alot of dealings with a certain finance co, who 6 months ago the man sleepin on the street could get a car loan, now its gone to the stage where some of our biggest customers (100 cars +) are struggling to get finance.

Not really helping any of the industries at the minute, never mind the motor trade.

Ferris

ned78 wrote: »

Are you saying you're billed for 2 hours, or waiting for 2 hours? What's usually described as an oil change service also includes lots of other checks too. People always forget that.

I wasn't billed because I maintain my own car and use a good independant mechanic for stuff I can't do myself. Better than some apprentice working in a faceless dealership.

My da would know his stuff (too busy to do it himself) and regularly queries the service invoice form the audi dealer he bought his car off and every time they have reduced the time spent working on the car. Says it all really.

bazz26

green-blood wrote: »

bought new for first time ever in Sept 07, 2 months later some sandal wearing twat knocks 3 K off the new price and charges 180 a year less in road tax... recessionand low demand for 07 diesels means my car is worth half of what we paid.... The main dealer is a feckin joke

however long may the crash continue. we were always keeping this 5 years,so the less new cars sold in the next 2 years the better for my resale.

my one year warranty is up (vs 3 yeaars in the UK) so no more main dealer servicing for me.

A little off topic but under EU directive manufacturer's had to offer minimum 2 year warranties for the last 4 or 5 years on new cars.

Owen

Ferris wrote: »

My da would know his stuff (too busy to do it himself) and regularly queries the service invoice form the audi dealer he bought his car off and every time they have reduced the time spent working on the car. Says it all really.

It doesn't say anything. What it does say, is that your Dad is the type of person who complains, which is fair enough. It doesn't mean the garage spent any less time working on the car, and are trying to rip him off. What it does mean, is that the Garage decides that to appease this complaining customer, that they will take a lower margin on their labour.

It's like the time I got a massive bill from Vodafone because I was on the wrong tarriff due to my own stupidity. I complained, and they lowered the price. It's called goodwill, and it happens in every customer serving business.

Biro

cowenstaff wrote: »

Its amazing how intelligent sane people loose the plot when it comes ot cars, you shell out €20,000 for a new motor and 12 motnhs down the line you moan about €400 for a service, what would you pay to have your washing machine fixed? How much is it for IT to rebuild your lap top following a virus? think about the overheads for these two services - a fraction of a workshop/showroom.

It has always disappointment me of the Irish attitude to construction and motors trades, its smells of begrudgery and cute whore syndrome. The VRT not being paid by all the smart alecs on yellow plates would go a long way to keeping VAT @21 instead of 21.5%.


In general the motor trade has paid some employees well because of skill needs, increasing costs, which as with every other industry ultimately are passed on to the consumer.

The Motor indusrty is on a par with the construction industry and hotels for "hassle" in jobs - any body moving from these industries into other businesses e.g banking, civil service have always excelled on the back of good training and tough experiences. Ive come across many "college" boys and girls or ex bank/insurance people that have run away from careers in the contruction/motor industry after a few months, they couldn't believe how tough it was.

Beware, these people will be in high demand for other industries next year, the recruitment companies are well aware of this - I hope you all dont get too comfortable!

Ah don't give me that crap. How is a 2.0 TDI Octavia cheaper to service than a 2.0 TDI A6? I'll tell you how - rip off. I have a certain level of sympathy for the honest dealers out there, but some places are a joke. Unfriendly staff, inefficient mechanics doing mediocre work at best, over priced and generally a shoddy outfit. You might think that this is a small number, but they're everywhere. The honest ones are few and far between.
And don't go rambling on about the construction industry and telling me that I'm nothing only a bedgrudger if I complain. If I forked out half a million for a house, I'd expect the f**king walls to be straight. The farce that is the number of dodgy houses gone up in the last 15 years is astonishing, and yet I'm a begrudger if I complain about the multi-million aire builders who creamed of the unknowing public?

maidhc

ned78 wrote: »

Servicing itself in terms of labour is still cheap, but the majority of an hour's labour goes into paying all these costs, and repaying all the equipment that's on hire purchase. If you don't want those things, go to an independent. It's your money, and it's your choice.

That is what people do.

Although the marketing bots may not agree, getting your car back unwashed from a service is not a deal breaker. Also people generally don't want new wiper blades and windscreen wash when all they ask for is an oil change.

The beauty of an independant is they will replace stuff when it needs to be replaced, not when Audi/Ford/BMW decide it should be so as to "enhance the ownership experience". This may mean the first you hear of needing a bushing is a gentle knocking in the back, but so be it.

Owen

maidhc wrote: »

Also people generally don't want new wiper blades and windscreen wash when all they ask for is an oil change.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, but in your profession, you can see the danger if things like that aren't done. "I crashed my car after getting it serviced because it was raining, I couldn't see, and Mercedes didn't change my wipers because they were lazy", or "I lost control of my car, and crashed. My rear bushings were .5%% worn - that must have been the cause" - people will use the tiniest excuses to litigate, and it's this fear of being sued that forces main dealers to over service under guidelines from the Manufacturers.

Ferris

ned78 wrote: »

It doesn't say anything. What it does say, is that your Dad is the type of person who complains, which is fair enough. It doesn't mean the garage spent any less time working on the car, and are trying to rip him off. What it does mean, is that the Garage decides that to appease this complaining customer, that they will take a lower margin on their labour.

It's like the time I got a massive bill from Vodafone because I was on the wrong tarriff due to my own stupidity. I complained, and they lowered the price. It's called goodwill, and it happens in every customer serving business.

My da is not the complaining type, quite the opposite actually, he just knows that it doesn't take two hours to do the work they describe, they have as much as admitted it on a couple of occasions so now he knows it doesn't take as long as they say. Thats why he keeps on going back (+ hes happy with the work they do to be fair).

What do you think is more likely:
-Dealer folds even tho they think they are correct, reducing the bill by ~100euro to shut a (non-irate courteous and well spoken) customer up.
or
-Dealer overbills everyone and folds when someone who actually knows their sh1t pulls them up on it.

I know which one I believe, and I believe it to be widespread.

Mitch Connor

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Have to agree with Ned here. Too many people too quick to jump the gun against the dealers. If all the dealers go down the tube, it means not only all the dealer staff and their families are in trouble, but also the other businesses who depend on motor dealers for alot of business - Bodyshops, tyre centres, motor factors, finance houses, etc. Now look at all the people suddenly in trouble.

We should really start supporting irish dealers and irish businesses in general, instead of giving out about the state of the irish economy - and then going over the border or to the UK and spending your money over there.

Its a vicious circle at the minute.

I'm just gonna sit here and wait for the torrent of abuse to begin now.:rolleyes:

but for the most part is is simply not financially practical to support the dealers over buying a much cheaper option in the UK. It is not the fault of the dealers, VRT pushes the prices of the cars too high in comparison to the UK market. If someone spends 10k more on a new car here, they expect to see that reflected in the trade-in price 3 years later, which means the prices of second hand irish cars will be higher to cover the trade in. I know that is a little simplistic, but it is the high initial price of the cars in comparison to the UK that causes the problems, and that is mainly down to the government taxes

Owen

Ferris wrote: »

What do you think is more likely:
-Dealer folds even tho they think they are correct, reducing the bill by ~100euro to shut a (non-irate courteous and well spoken) customer up.
or
-Dealer overbills everyone and folds when someone who actually knows their sh1t pulls them up on it.

Am ... it really is called goodwill. Promise.