Motor Trade RIP (1888-2008)

dfbemt

Joining this late. I have no sympathy at all for the main dealers.

Drive a Hyundai myself, 3 year warranty here, 5 year in UK, 10 year US !!! RIP OFF. Thought about changing and looked around. Mitsubishi salesman knew nothing about their Outlander. I knew more after I had spent about 30 minutes on their www.

Big new showrooms, shiny cars, no customers. Show us some good service, some good deals (not the free TV or weekend away) and we might just change our cars. Until then.....suffer on.

-Chris-

reverandkenjami wrote: »

But don't forget the authorised repair centre pays 'ballymount' crazy amounts of money for the right to be authorised! If Darragh wants to pay them the same in order to buy the parts at the same price there is nothing stopping him.

I wasn't aware of an ongoing charge paid for access to the wholesale price of parts. That would, of course, be a factor in the pricing structure.

I don't know all the details, I'm just surprised by how unfair it is sometimes.

reverandkenjami wrote: »

The same scenario applies to car sales, customer has to buy from a dealer - why can't he go to the manufacturer and save himself 10% and delivery charges etc??

Customers can't buy from the manufacturer, just like I can't buy from Samsung directly, only dealers buy from the manufacturer and sell to the customer.
But I think, just like the Samsung example, that anyone should be able to set up a dealership to sell or service cars. That if they have a VAT number and a letterhead, they'll be taken seriously by the manufacturer/distributor, and that the pricing they get from the distributor should reflect their bulk-buying power.
If you're an "Audi superstore" (currently called a main dealer), you get the full bulk discount. If you're a multi-franchise dealership who only sells 100 cars a year, you can still buy from the same distributor but you get a different pricing structure. You don't have to buy from another dealer in order to serve your customer.



I am aware that this change would forever alter the way my industry works, and that it could affect my dealership/employer significantly, but I don't think it would be terminal.

There's a DIY shop around the corner from me. The guy who owns it is called Eamonn. Eamonn will never sell a screwdriver set for cheaper than Woodies, but his specialist knowledge and "local" service levels keep a certain level of customers coming back. Most people will go to the "stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap" retailer, some will go to Eamonn because they like the way he runs things. That's the way it works.
Eamonn has to find the equilbrium between being too expensive and chasing away his customers against being too cheap (trying to compete with Woodies) and making a loss.


I don't know how to resolve all this, but I'd love to think that if I had the balls to start my own business in the future (and that business will have to be in the motor industry, it's all I know...), that I could set up as an indy sales & service place, servicing customers with quality cars at a decent price with decent service, aware of the limitations that I'd have due to my lack of purchasing power.
Then, if I wanted to get ambitious and start a specialised Superstore, I could make the investment and pin my colours to one flag.


If the barriers to entry into the market were less imposing, would it improve customer service by attracting interested parties into the industry and exposing any inefficiencies existing in the incumbent businesses?

pred racer

So Im not seen as a "dealer basher" Ill give you an example of the treatment Id love to expect.
this was in Lewis opel in portlaoise BTW

I bought an opel vectra (98 1.6 20K miles) just as it was out of opel warranty, the dealer I bought it off gave me a year warranty on it. they allowed me a decent trade in on my xantia and the car I bought was reasonably priced.
over the course of the next year......

the timing belt bearings failed
the starter motor failed
the electrics for the windows and ecu went tits up
the rear doors rusted at the catch
all the bushings failed in the rear suspension

most would say that the bearings, starter and bushings are not warranty items but all 3 failed within a month of purchase.
The rust was covered under some opel anti corrosion warranty

each time I brought it back they fixed it, and lent me a car while they did it.
now Ive never fancied another opel (I sold that one when the warranty was up and you guessed it, it did 4 years trouble free motoring for its next owner, I still see it now and again) but if I did, I would go straight back to them and I recomend them to anyone I know looking at opels.

Would you go back here, or to some crowd that weren't interested and tried to screw you at every opportunity?

pred racer

AudiChris wrote: »

I don't know how to resolve all this, but I'd love to think that if I had the balls to start my own business in the future (and that business will have to be in the motor industry, it's all I know...), that I could set up as an indy sales & service place, servicing customers with quality cars at a decent price with decent service, aware of the limitations that I'd have due to my lack of purchasing power.
Then, if I wanted to get ambitious and start a specialised Superstore, I could make the investment and pin my colours to one flag.


If the barriers to entry into the market were less imposing, would it improve customer service by attracting interested parties into the industry and exposing any inefficiencies existing in the incumbent businesses?

sounds like exactly what Im looking for in a garage:)

Apart from money, what are the other barriers to entry in the market?

Darragh29

reverandkenjami wrote: »

Most sense in the thread so far.. Darragh wants the profitable parts.. Nothing else!! As said above, if you end up being able to buy direct, so will the customer. So there goes your 10%. How will you manage then?

I don't want the "profitable" parts... You have to grasp the fact that you have to be able to maintain a margin in your business, so that you can pay the bills.

You are going nowhere with a 10% margin on a part that takes less than an hour to fit. You are operating a charity shop if you do this.

If you are putting 200 Euro into a transaction and getting 250 back, you are wasting your time. This is not selfishness or kicking up dust saying I won't do a job if there isn't a margin in it, if you are not maintaining a margin, sooner or later you will go out of business.

It all comes down to the same point time and time again and unfortunately many people posting don't understand the industry and how bills and overheads have to be paid, and these people posting here keep making the completely invalid point that I expect to be able to walk into a wholesaler and buy parts for wholesale and tell everyone to fu*k off...

If you are a business it is highly unusual for you to have to buy your raw materials from your fu*king competitor. Anyone who can't get their head around this, doesn't understand basic business fundamantals, plain and simple...

There is no reason why anyone should have to pay thousands of Euro to any business in order to have the pleasure of selling their products. This is the very kind of absolute horse sh*te that has the industry uncompetitive and overpriced.

Daithi McGee

Darragh29 wrote: »

I don't want the "profitable" parts... You have to grasp the fact that you have to be able to maintain a margin in your business, so that you can pay the bills.

You are going nowhere with a 10% margin on a part that takes less than an hour to fit. You are operating a charity shop if you do this.

If you are putting 200 Euro into a transaction and getting 250 back, you are wasting your time. This is not selfishness or kicking up dust saying I won't do a job if there isn't a margin in it, if you are not maintaining a margin, sooner or later you will go out of business.

It all comes down to the same point time and time again and unfortunately many people posting don't understand the industry and how bills and overheads have to be paid, and these people posting here keep making the completely invalid point that I expect to be able to walk into a wholesaler and buy parts for wholesale and tell everyone to fu*k off...

If you are a business it is highly unusual for you to have to buy your raw materials from your fu*king competitor. Anyone who can't get their head around this, doesn't understand basic business fundamantals, plain and simple...

There is no reason why anyone should have to pay thousands of Euro to any business in order to have the pleasure of selling their products. This is the very kind of absolute horse sh*te that has the industry uncompetitive and overpriced.

I will try a new approach. How many staff do you employ Darragh?

old boy

one question to everyone how come the motor factors deliver to main dealers

Daithi McGee

old boy wrote: »

one question to everyone how come the motor factors deliver to main dealers

Because they can supply parts of similar nature to that of the Distributor at a cheaper price. E.G Spark plugs. They supply them to the like of Darragh too.

But at times the Distributor is cheaper and Dealers are too fuking thick to bother doing any calculations because the assume by default that they are getting a better deal from a spurious supplier. oh and you get like a free jacket, Tool box etc etc

Darragh29

Daithi McGee wrote: »

Because they can supply parts of similar nature to that of the Distributor at a cheaper price. E.G Spark plugs. They supply them to the like of Darragh too.

But at times the Distributor is cheaper and Dealers are too fuking thick to bother doing any calculations because the assume by default that they are getting a better deal from a spurious supplier. oh and you get like a free jacket, Tool box etc etc

Or maybe if we scratch a little harder, we'll get even closer to the truth and see that many dealers buy good quality OEM parts from motor factors and fit these while telling their customers they are fitting "genuine" parts only, while slagging off the indy garages for not buying "genuine" parts.

Daithi, what exactly is a spurious part???

-Chris-

Darragh29 wrote: »

reverandkenjami wrote: »

Darragh wants the profitable parts.. Nothing else!! As said above, if you end up being able to buy direct, so will the customer. So there goes your 10%. How will you manage then?

I don't want the "profitable" parts... You have to grasp the fact that you have to be able to maintain a margin in your business, so that you can pay the bills....


...There is no reason why anyone should have to pay thousands of Euro to any business in order to have the pleasure of selling their products. This is the very kind of absolute horse sh*te that has the industry uncompetitive and overpriced.

If we changed things up, would we not see the following:

One big group of service providers who only did basic services. All they stocked was oil filters, air filters and sump nut washers (simplistic, but you know what I mean). They are the Ryanair of the service world. You're in, you're out - you pay the bill, your car is serviced.
If they find anything wrong with your car, they advise you, but it's not in their remit to do any more.
Your car may be worked on by an Irish mechanic or a Czech carpenter, you'll never know - you're only in it for the stamps in your service book.

On the other end, a small cadre of "diagnostic service workshops" would exist. These are staffed by experts - they've done the training courses, they have all the tools, they stock the esoteric parts. They'll charge you through the nose for their expertise, but you'll know your car was worked on by an expert, and they'll have the pride in their skills that if they diagnose & repair a job, and the symptoms return, they'll pull out all the stops to recover their reputation as "the experts".

There'll be a lot of shades of grey in between, but opening up the market would allow a space for both - rather than the current model of having main dealer workshops who rely day-to-day on the bread & butter work of basic servicing, but still have to stock esoteric parts and every possible tool under the sun (including €180k tracking systems) in order to keep their "approved repairer" status.


Same for the respective parts departments - one setup would only stock simple stuff and sell it for little margin, but because they sell so much of it, they make money.
The others would stock the stuff that no one else has, but they'll be damned if you get a discount on it.

pred racer wrote: »

sounds like exactly what Im looking for in a garage:)

Apart from money, what are the other barriers to entry in the market?

There are probably more barriers, but like any start-up business, cash flow is the most critical.
If you have to build a €10m showroom before you sell car number one, no one will take the risk unless it's a very closed market.
If there are very few barriers to entry (like internet based businesses), you'd better have an innovative product or extremely efficient process or you'll get copied by a lower cost-base competitor.


If you're a start up with little cash, will you have cars to test-drive or a swanky premises? Probably not.
If you don't, your pricing had better be extremely sharp to win business from the better equipped sellers.


In sales in the motor industry, building a customer base is really important, because it's not enough to sell new car, you need to know you'll be able to sell the trade-in quickly and profitably also.

In service, you'll trade off between speed and low price or high-value diagnostic skill. It's a waste to have a genius doing basic services, and it's a recipie for disaster to have unexperienced people doing complicated jobs.

In parts, you need to turn stuff over quicky and get paid quicker. JIT parts departments will have the lowest overheads, but need to be run in military fashion.
If you're the only one with a particular part, you need to have the spine to charge full RRP and make the margin you deserve for stocking that part.

Darragh29

Well I think if you are a qualified and capable mechanic, you should be able to resolve any problem on any car.

It's not rocket science, but you need to understand the underlying concepts and the theory to be able to work as a mechanic.

I think every industry must have standards, and if you are offering a professional service in the industry, you should be qualified or on your way to being qualified. I don't agree with fast fit service based businesses that underpay lads to do endless oil and tyre changes and not offering these same employees a career in the industry.

The direction the industry needs to push technical people in, is up, not down.

I can go on all week, but what is required in the first instance before anything else is something to replace the SIMI.

Anan1

Darragh29 wrote: »

Or maybe if we scratch a little harder, we'll get even closer to the truth and see that many dealers buy good quality OEM parts from motor factors and fit these while telling their customers they are fitting "genuine" parts only, while slagging off the indy garages for not buying "genuine" parts.

Castle Subaru in Bray tried this one with me when I bought the Forester - they fitted locking nuts from the local motor factors rather than the agreed Subaru ones. When I went to investigate a knocking noise from the wheel well I found the key in a cardboard box with a note from the motor factors saying 'Castle Subaru'. Castle then tried to tell me that Subaru don't do genuine accessory locknuts. When I showed them the picture in the accessory catalogue they'd given me they quietly replaced the nuts.

reverandkenjami

dfbemt wrote: »

Joining this late. I have no sympathy at all for the main dealers.

Drive a Hyundai myself, 3 year warranty here, 5 year in UK, 10 year US !!! RIP OFF. Thought about changing and looked around. Mitsubishi salesman knew nothing about their Outlander. I knew more after I had spent about 30 minutes on their www.

Big new showrooms, shiny cars, no customers. Show us some good service, some good deals (not the free TV or weekend away) and we might just change our cars. Until then.....suffer on.

But its the manufacturer who decides warranties for different markets, not dealers????

-Chris-

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well I think if you are a qualified and capable mechanic, you should be able to resolve any problem on any car.

It's not rocket science, but you need to understand the underlying concepts and the theory to be able to work as a mechanic.

I think every industry must have standards, and if you are offering a professional service in the industry, you should be qualified or on your way to being qualified. I don't agree with fast fit service based businesses that underpay lads to do endless oil and tyre changes and not offering these same employees a career in the industry.

The direction the industry needs to push technical people in, is up, not down.

I can go on all week, but what is required in the first instance before anything else is something to replace the SIMI.

Can't you push people both ways? If you were into IT you could start a company designing websites based on templates freely available on the internet, or you could become the best in your field at an extremely specialised topic.
I have a mate who's senior management in Microsoft. He was involved in a project recently that needed some hardcore coding. He requested (and got) a guy called Wilhelm to help out with the hard bits. Wilhelm is revered as the best. My mate got him on loan from another team, and had him on a short timescale because Wilhelm was needed elsewhere. Wilhelm is paid very well, because he's $hit hot.
Some people don't want to be Wilhelm, they just want to pay the mortgage.

Some people are ambitious and some aren't. The fact that you tried to start/continue your own business, Darragh, tells me you're one of the ambitious ones, and therefore you have standards that not everyone shares.

You can bring your car to guys who can service a car in super-quick time, or you can bring your car to someone who can diagnose (and fix/re-program/re-manufacture) anything. It depends on your needs.


I don't know what the solution to the SIMI issue is...

Anan1 wrote: »

Castle Subaru in Bray tried this one with me when I bought the Forester - they fitted locking nuts from the local motor factors rather than the agreed Subaru ones. When I went to investigate a knocking noise from the wheel well I found the key in a cardboard box with a note from the motor factors saying 'Castle Subaru'. Castle then tried to tell me that Subaru don't do genuine accessory locknuts. When I showed them the picture in the accessory catalogue they'd given me they quietly replaced the nuts.

That's properly shady practice, and a function of the SIMI issue - if you're caught doing this a few times, you should be thrown out of the club!
The SIMI accreditation should lend legitimacy to an organisation. Breaking the ethical standards of that legitimising body should have serious consequences. Otherwise it's worthless.

If you can order a PhD over the internet, it may give you the ability to call yourself a doctor, but it doesn't give you the right to consider yourself equal to someone who's earned it the hard way.

bbability

Well I for one have no sympathy for the fat cats of the motor trade. For the first time in 10 years they actually have to sell cars rather than take orders. In the last two days and with all this credit crunch talk I walked in and out of 2 garages in the Dublin area because no one seemed to be interested in selling me a car. If they want to go to the wall that's their business. If they want to attract customers best they start matching prices across the pond and up north and bit of thinking outside the box wouldn't go adrift.

Darragh29

bbability wrote: »

Well I for one have no sympathy for the fat cats of the motor trade. For the first time in 10 years they actually have to sell cars rather than take orders. In the last two days and with all this credit crunch talk I walked in and out of 2 garages in the Dublin area because no one seemed to be interested in selling me a car. If they want to go to the wall that's their business. If they want to attract customers best they start matching prices across the pond and up north and bit of thinking outside the box wouldn't go adrift.

In fairness to the folks you are seeing (or in your case not seeing), I'm talking to a small number of sales folks every day and my honest take on this is that they genuinely don't know how to deal with this new environment. This is no terrible indictment of these salespeople, there is a lack of leadership and you can't blame them for it.

BostonB

This is not new. Its been like that for decades. Most car sales people you meet wouldn't know one end of car from the other. Your just a number and they treat you as such, or they are very pushy which is probably less annoying. Ditto mechanics. its getting harder and harder to find mechanics who are actually interested in cars. Few take any joy in finding, and fixing something, or just the joy in getting something working just right. I know its money pressure and all but still.

Daithi McGee

Darragh29 wrote: »

Or maybe if we scratch a little harder, we'll get even closer to the truth and see that many dealers buy good quality OEM parts from motor factors and fit these while telling their customers they are fitting "genuine" parts only, while slagging off the indy garages for not buying "genuine" parts.

Daithi, what exactly is a spurious part???

Morning Darragh! I don't know what is a spurious part? Seeing as you brought them up?

I described the parts suppled as that of a similar nature to that of the distributor but at a cheaper price. I did mention how ever spurious suppliers. That, rightly or wrongly, is an industry generic term for suppliers outside the dealer/distributor network. You see it is not only motor factors that supply parts to dealers but a ream of other specialist companies too that might only do one product. Like Alloy wheels or Spoilers. Even general Workshop supplies. They can't be describled as motor factors so the term spurious supplier is used, in general. I know one UK company that specialise in Car mats alone, that supplies to irish dealers but via deals with the distributors.

Distributors use spurious suppliers too mind Sometimes the Factory can charge stupid prices too.

leon8v

Darragh29 wrote: »

Some people don't want to be part of an authorised/franchised network, they don't want the expense of it or the restriction that comes with it.

But at the same time seem to want all the benefits that come with it!!!

Darragh29

leon8v wrote: »

But at the same time seem to want all the benefits that come with it!!!

Disagree. What I wanted was to be able to meet my customers need every single time they come to me for business.

One of those needs, as we see here on this thread, is value for money. I can't offer a value for money service when I'm turning my customer away to a main dealer because I cannot meet their requirements in a competitive manner.

This is where we are at as an industry, there is an artificial restriction on the supply of replacement parts, and people are trying to convince me that I should be prepared to pay stupid money or jump through all sorts of unnecessary hoops, just to be able to buy a part without having to buy it from my fu*king competitor. This is how short sighted we are being here, and it's the customer who loses every single time!

If I approach a distributor with a view to buying my parts on the same terms as the dealership up the road, which I am competing with, the only thing that dealership ought to be concerned with, is whether or not I am first of all a legitimate business in the motor industry and second of all, if I can pay for the parts I require and am doing business in good faith.

People here are implying that a distributor needs to in some way protect their brand from the likes of myself by imposing hugely restrictive associative costs that a dealer must pay a distributor in order to begin a business relationship with a distributor. All this stuff that is going on behind the scenes is simply wrong wrong wrong! It's being suggested here that buying your parts at the same price as your competitor is some sort of privilege as opposed to a fundamental entitlement, and that is exactly the mindset that has aftersales prices kept artifically high.

There should be absolutely no question but that it is illegal to fix prices and restrict market activity in a way that is detrimental to the market as a whole.

As if this isn't bad enough, you will find that the distributors in this country are absolutely RIDING people with regard to the cost of replacement parts.

Here's an example, ring up a dealer here for a replacement part like a lambda sensor or a replacement ECU and ring a dealer in Newry or Belfast. You will consistently find a price difference of roughly 50%.

Darragh29

Daithi McGee wrote: »

Morning Darragh! I don't know what is a spurious part? Seeing as you brought them up?

I described the parts suppled as that of a similar nature to that of the distributor but at a cheaper price. I did mention how ever spurious suppliers. That, rightly or wrongly, is an industry generic term for suppliers outside the dealer/distributor network. You see it is not only motor factors that supply parts to dealers but a ream of other specialist companies too that might only do one product. Like Alloy wheels or Spoilers. Even general Workshop supplies. They can't be describled as motor factors so the term spurious supplier is used, in general. I know one UK company that specialise in Car mats alone, that supplies to irish dealers but via deals with the distributors.

Distributors use spurious suppliers too mind Sometimes the Factory can charge stupid prices too.

You walked straight into that one Daithi! I'm calling BS on this one...

reverandkenjami

Darragh29 wrote: »

You are going nowhere with a 10% margin on a part that takes less than an hour to fit. You are operating a charity shop if you do this.

It all comes down to the same point time and time again and unfortunately many people posting don't understand the industry and how bills and overheads have to be paid,

Well then obviously you are not charging enough for your labour if you are relying on a margin on parts to pay your overheads! Your hourly rate should cover your costs. The margin on parts should be a added bonus

Darragh29 wrote: »

One of those needs, as we see here on this thread, is value for money. I can't offer a value for money service when I'm turning my customer away to a main dealer because I cannot meet their requirements in a competitive manner.

How?? Dealer charges €120 per hour, you charge less obviously! Thats cheaper than a dealer!

You get 10% discount, a customer in a dealership doesn't! Why don't you pass this to the customer?

Darragh29 wrote: »

Here's an example, ring up a dealer here for a replacement part like a lambda sensor or a replacement ECU and ring a dealer in Newry or Belfast. You will consistently find a price difference of roughly 50%

Alot of distributors are based in the UK. Exchange rates have been set since the start of the year.. The fall in the sterling has alot to play in this. I expect the difference in price to change in the new year! Not forgetting the cheaper VAT rate in the UK.


Leave the distributor out of this for a second and think of the dealer as 3 seperate businesses.

Opel Parts, Opel Service & Opel Sales.

Which one are you competing with?

Darragh29 wrote: »

There should be absolutely no question but that it is illegal to fix prices and restrict market activity in a way that is detrimental to the market as a whole.

And as for the whole price fixing argument, if everyone was involved in price fixing why even bother offering trade customers discount?

Market activity is NOT restricted. Nobody forces you to buy from a dealer, you can buy parts elsewhere. Its by choice.

But a manufacturer can pick and choose who they want to sell products to. Its the same in every business..

If a manufacturer is forced to sell to anyone in the motor industry it will still not make you able to buy parts at the same price as your competitor. Who is gonna pay for the delivery costs of one part to you? You could end up with a part costing you more than your competitor.

Alot of this thread is dealer bashing although the problems seem to lye out of the dealers hands..


The Aer lingus/ Ryanair example does not relate at all to the motor trade.

Using BMW as an example here:

BMW buys injectors from Bosch. BMW repackage the part in their packaging and sell it to their dealers. Dealer sells it to customer.

The raw product is from Bosch.

Why don't you buy the part direct off Bosch?

Darragh29

reverandkenjami wrote: »

Well then obviously you are not charging enough for your labour if you are relying on a margin on parts to pay your overheads! Your hourly rate should cover your costs. The margin on parts should be a added bonus

This isn't a business way of looking at a transaction. For my business to be able to trade into the future, I need to make a 60% gross margin on every transaction that I do.

That means that my profit margin on parts, PLUS my labour, on any transaction, MUST be at least 60% of the total value of the transaction invoiced to the customer, excluding VAT, or else I'm in the manure business. This is financial business fact, in order for me to continue in business, this is what must happen. Labour as you know is a function of the task that has to be done, not something that can be fiddled with in order to make the transaction financially viable.

If I'm putting 200 Euro into a transaction and getting back 400 Euro plus VAT, I'm making a gross margin of 50%. If it takes two hours to fit the 200 Euro part, that is the time it takes to fit the part! It simply isn't open to me as an honest businessman to tell my customer that it takes 3-4 hours to fit that same part and charge more labour for the same transaction in order to offset the fact that I can't buy the part in a manner that allows me make a reasonable profit on that part!

The idea of a margin on a part being an added bonus is just silly, I know from my business model that I need to make a 60% gross margin on X number of transactions a month, with the average value of all those transactions per month being Y Euro, in order to be able to pay the bills at the end of the month.

If I don't do enough transactions a month, or if those transactions are not handled at the right margin, I can't pay bills at the end of the month or if I can, I have to pull the funds out of working capital, and if that happens, I've made a loss for that month.

This is before we even talk about retaining a profit for the month, we're still in the world of breakeven here!

The notion that I should crack open a bottle of bubbly every time I make a normal profit of 30% on parts, on the basis that I should look at it as some kind of bonus, is I'm afraid not going to allow me pay my overheads at the end of the month.

reverandkenjami wrote: »

How?? Dealer charges €120 per hour, you charge less obviously! Thats cheaper than a dealer!

You get 10% discount, a customer in a dealership doesn't! Why don't you pass this to the customer?

For the same reason that you guy get 30% upwards of a discount from your suppliers and don't pass on a discount, because it is a business you run and not a charity shop. 10% doesn't even cover the cost of ordering and collecting the part.

reverandkenjami wrote: »

Leave the distributor out of this for a second and think of the dealer as 3 seperate businesses.

Opel Parts, Opel Service & Opel Sales.

Which one are you competing with?

The dealer isn't three seperate businesses, the dealer is one business, but to answer your question, I'm competing with Service.

reverandkenjami wrote: »

Market activity is NOT restricted. Nobody forces you to buy from a dealer, you can buy parts elsewhere. Its by choice.

But a manufacturer can pick and choose who they want to sell products to. Its the same in every business..

If a manufacturer is forced to sell to anyone in the motor industry it will still not make you able to buy parts at the same price as your competitor. Who is gonna pay for the delivery costs of one part to you? You could end up with a part costing you more than your competitor.

Alot of this thread is dealer bashing although the problems seem to lye out of the dealers hands..

And this is the way the discussion always goes, "we can't do this and we can't do that and its not our fault and we can do what we want so go fu*k yourself and your customers, they're our customers anyway, and so on..."

Your point regarding the cost of parts collection is just irrelevant. If I'm getting in a pallet or a box of parts a day from a distributor, so what??? I find a way to integrate the cost into the business model just like I do for every other overhead I have. I wouldn't get hung up on this, I could collect the part if I had to or if I was buying a lot of parts, as I would be if I didn't have to deal with an unnecessary middleman who have no place in the transaction, I'd ultimately deal with logistical costs in the same manner as main dealers and their distributors deal with these costs.

reverandkenjami wrote: »

The Aer lingus/ Ryanair example does not relate at all to the motor trade.

Using BMW as an example here:

BMW buys injectors from Bosch. BMW repackage the part in their packaging and sell it to their dealers. Dealer sells it to customer.

The raw product is from Bosch.

Why don't you buy the part direct off Bosch?

The Ryanair-Aer Lingus example is fully comparable:

Imagine Bosch making aircraft engine injectors for Boeing... Bosch supply these parts to Boeing, Boeing in turn package them as Boeing and supply them to Aer Lingus, but if Ryanair want a set of aircraft engine injectors for one of their 737's, they have to buy them from Aer Lingus???

Why don't I just go off and find a good aluminium mine and make the part from scratch is basically what you are asking???

Daithi McGee

Darragh29 wrote: »

You walked straight into that one Daithi! I'm calling BS on this one...

Poor me so :rolleyes: I think my answer shows you didn't bother reading what I wrote. I put that down to your blinkers. Though I did look up the word spurious earlier and it is not a phrase I would use again. It was one I picked up in Ireland.

Your selfish, blinkered view, denies you the sight to see the facts for what they are. You still didn't say how many staff you employed bar yourself, a question I asked earlier?

As I said before you want a nice part of the cake and not the rest.

Out of interest what franchise do you want to be on equal terms with?

Daithi McGee

Darragh29 wrote: »

The Ryanair-Aer Lingus example is fully comparable:

Imagine Bosch making aircraft engine injectors for Boeing... Bosch supply these parts to Boeing, Boeing in turn package them as Boeing and supply them to Aer Lingus, but if Ryanair want a set of aircraft engine injectors for one of their 737's, they have to buy them from Aer Lingus???

Why don't I just go off and find a good aluminium mine and make the part from scratch is basically what you are asking???

Well if Boeing paid for the patent and tooling cost then I'd say they would own the rights to the supply chain. Do you know how much tooling costs, eh cost?

Or you could just buy them off http://www.origo.ie/opencontent/default.asp.

Or it might be http://www.adireland.ie/index.html

I can't remember

Darragh29

Daithi McGee wrote: »

Poor me so :rolleyes: I think my answer shows you didn't bother reading what I wrote. I put that down to your blinkers. Though I did look up the word spurious earlier and it is not a phrase I would use again. It was one I picked up in Ireland.

Your selfish, blinkered view, denies you the sight to see the facts for what they are. You still didn't say how many staff you employed bar yourself, a question I asked earlier?

As I said before you want a nice part of the cake and not the rest.

Out of interest what franchise do you want to be on equal terms with?

Daithi, I've seen other threads you have contributed to, and they have ended in them being locked imminently upon your arrival, because you let on that you are an expert in an industry that you are obviously not even employed in or have no first hand knowledge of. Once I saw you appearing on this thread, I knew it was the end of the discussion.

You have represented yourself as someone senior in the industry on this thead, yet when I ask you what the word "spurious" means in the context of this industry, you have to look it up in a dictionary and even after doing that, you still don't understand the meaning the word in the context of this discussion.

I post here in a personal capacity, and the number of people I employ, have employed in the last or might employ in the future, is of absolutely no concern to you or any other person on this forum and vice versa for that matter.

This thread will proably be locked now, end of discussion, and more of the same, good lad Daithi...

Darragh29

Daithi McGee wrote: »

Well if Boeing paid for the patent and tooling cost then I'd say they would own the rights to the supply chain. Do you know how much tooling costs, eh cost?

Or you could just buy them off http://www.origo.ie/opencontent/default.asp.

Or it might be http://www.adireland.ie/index.html

I can't remember

Good lad Daithi, give AD Ireland a call on Monday morning and ask them for a window reg for a 02 VW Mk 4 Golf and see how you get on...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

reverandkenjami

Darragh29 wrote: »

The Ryanair-Aer Lingus example is fully comparable:

Imagine Bosch making aircraft engine injectors for Boeing... Bosch supply these parts to Boeing, Boeing in turn package them as Boeing and supply them to Aer Lingus, but if Ryanair want a set of aircraft engine injectors for one of their 737's, they have to buy them from Aer Lingus???

Why don't I just go off and find a good aluminium mine and make the part from scratch is basically what you are asking???

But nothing is stopping Ryanair buying direct off Bosch. Fair enough if boeing won't supply them, but they can be got from the original manufacturer of the part.

The same as in the motor trade. BMW/Merc etc don't make parts, they just rebrand and distribute amongst thier dealers.

Darragh29

reverandkenjami wrote: »

But nothing is stopping Ryanair buying direct off Bosch. Fair enough if boeing won't supply them, but they can be got from the original manufacturer of the part.

The same as in the motor trade. BMW/Merc etc don't make parts, they just rebrand and distribute amongst thier dealers.

My point entirely. Only you left out the bit where Bosch have a minimum order quantity of probably 5,000 widgets... Does a main dealer in Dublin have to order 5,000 lambda sensors from the distributor in Dublin when a customer needs a lambda sensor??? No, but if the distributor wants to order from Bosch, they will obviously have to deal with a minimum order quantity of possibly thousands of components...

You can try to distort this as many ways as you want, you'll end up right back at the point that I'm making, which is that the Irish aftersales market is distorted to such a degree that the main dealer will always win and the customer will always lose...

This is what happens at SIMI meetings, you get this very fudge, spin and procrastination emerging every single time this is discussed. You get the vested interests pushing their own agenda and citing all sorts of baseless reasons why there can be no change, it's like being in a room with Ian Paisley in the 80's, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!

Well change is coming guys, unfortunately this time it will be without your consent.

reverandkenjami

Darragh29 wrote: »

My point entirely. Only you left out the bit where Bosch have a minimum order quantity of probably 5,000 widgets... Does a main dealer in Dublin have to order 5,000 lambda sensors from the distributor in Dublin when a customer needs a lambda sensor??? No, but if the distributor wants to order from Bosch, they will obviously have to deal with a minimum order quantity of possibly thousands of components...

But a motor distributor is there to buy the parts off Bosch and distribute to their dealers. They don't have to sell to anybody else.

It'd be a different ballgame if Bosch were the one's who refused to sell the parts.

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well change is coming guys, unfortunately this time it will be without your consent.

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