Motor Trade RIP (1888-2008)

Captain Slow IRL

mickdw wrote: »

I cant understand why these dealers dont flush out this existing stock at a loss.

A lad I'm working with told me an interesting story about his previous employer. They had a car in stock, and had no interest from anyone about it - the car was on the forecourt for a year and didn't budge. This lad offered 3k for a 4k car and the salesman laughed at him. The car was put down the back after a while and waited there and rotted - was eventually scrapped.
He loved to remind the salesman of the sale that never was (said salesman was a bit of a bollo* anyway, so no love loss!)

The fact that so many are refusing to take a loss could account for a lot of places going bust. Something is better than nothing.

Owen

E92 wrote: »

I don't really care whether a garage uses space age technology or not ... To be honest, I don't care about the glass showroom or not

You say that now, but if things continue the way they are now, when something drastic goes wrong with your car, you'll have to pay to get your car to a main dealer who might be that bit further away as a result. And the glass showrooms? The way boardsies spit and spew about them, you'd swear it's the Dealer's faults. The Dealers are given guidelines by the manufacturers on what to build, and in some cases, they're given blueprints. If a Dealer had a choice to work from a 10000 Euro Portacabin, or a 13 Million glass palace, which would he choose?

E92 wrote: »

You might say that the price of used cars has dropped; it has but the price of new cars has dropped more percentage wise, I mean I found this 06 520d on sale for €43k

Pardon my french E92, and I hate to disagree with someone who I consider to be one of boards' biggest assets, but that's complete and utter bollocks. You have picked one of the most expensive offerings, when there are in fact plenty of 520d's for the very early 30's around. Dealers out there are taking the pain, and reducing the price of their stock hand over fist despite what people believe.

Here's a 2006 520d for 31k :
http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/5-Series/520d-SE-/200840190219802/advert

copacetic

traco wrote: »

It is and if you run an example at 30% VRT and the same pre tax invoice value for a given car then over a period of 5 years the figures are very close. See below - BTW this is only a very basic spread sheet for a quick check and depreciation year on year is 15%. Took 1.54 as an exchange rate as it would be more applicable to 05/06 models


So in theory the VRT system should equalize out the prices but we all know it does not in reality.

So what is happening?
Are we depreciating at a lower rate than the UK?
Have we an over inflated valuation system for our cars?
Does the UK market devalue more year on year and if so is if due to the fact that 15% in the UK in real money is a lot less than 15% of the higher UK irish value and therefore more acceptable to the consumer?

Look at the figures from New to year 1, the depreciation is almost 50% more in real money terms.
Ireland = €7k
UK = €5k

Comments welcome as I did this just off the cuff, more or less working towards a nominal few k value at end of life - 15 years old

This is one of the key reasons I personally have little sympathy for dealers.
A 9 month old car here is on dealer forecourts for 10-15% less than new.

It is on the UK dealers forecourts for 30-40% less than new. Nothing to do with tax/vrt. Simply more competition.

That is why it would still be cheaper to import, never mind the different tax treatments

maidhc

ned78 wrote: »

Here's a 2006 520d for 31k :
http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/5-Series/520d-SE-/200840190219802/advert

Humm... Would ye do better.

I have bought all my cars from Kearys (even though they have been fords...). By and large a good company to deal with, especially Dan Cashman in service.

Drummerboy08

Seems to me there is a lot of anger being vented at the motor trade in here.

I hope something is done soon, because if its not, this country is in for a big big shock the next few years.

I wonder if these people will start bringing their kids to school in the Uk soon, becase its cheaper than here. Or maybe, Put the father or mother in a home in the Uk because its cheaper than here too.. Wonder if i tried to import a house for some of these, think it'd work? Stick it on the back off a transporter sure, n lob it over on the ferry.

Fact is, I hope anyone who imports a car from the UK gets untold hardship with it.;)

copacetic

maidhc wrote: »

Humm... Would ye do better.

I have bought all my cars from Kearys (even though they have been fords...). By and large a good company to deal with, especially Dan Cashman in service.

Would do a lot better by importing.

First one that comes up on AUC (from bmw park lane, hardly known as being cheapest)

http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/auc/car_details/0,,1260_159980106__,00.html?currentCh=WBANC32060CX78312

same spec as above, less than a third of the mileage. VRT before appeal is 5500 on OMSP of 34,500 + 300 expenses.

€19,000 + 5,800 = €24,800 landed.

Would probably save another 2k on price and on vrt appeal.

6-7k saving is worth a day out to the UK along with the really low mileage and the fact that it is still under warranty unlike the Irish car.

peasant

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Fact is, I hope anyone who imports a car from the UK gets untold hardship with it.;)

Pheew ...I'm allright then ...I imported mine from Germany

E92

maidhc wrote: »

Humm... Would ye do better.

I have bought all my cars from Kearys (even though they have been fords...). By and large a good company to deal with, especially Dan Cashman in service.

+1.

P.C.

I am missing something here.

We all know it is cheaper to buy a second hand car in the UK at the moment.

But, it is also cheaper to buy a new car in the UK, and bring it here.

Why?

Is there something that the dealers in the UK are doning that the Irish dealers are not doing?

And don't blame it on VAT or VRT.

If you buy a brand new car from a dealer in the UK, you do not have to pay the VAT there, you will have to pay it here, at 21% (or, soon 21.5%). And you have to pay VRT here.

Help, I know there is some basic thing that I am missing, but I am too lazy to work it out.

crosstownk

Yes, I agree - the motor industry here is in for some very hard times for the short term at the very least.

Arguments can be put forward for the abolishing of VRT, banning UK imports, etc. In the short term these factors are here to stay. But I think that firstly, current owners need to realise that the vehicle they own is not worth anything like it was 12 months ago. The car you drive is depreciating - rapidly. Fact. Just like most houses are also falling in value (maybe not at the same rate as used vehicles). It's a consequence of the current economic climate.

Secondly, most dealers (not all) are over-stocked at the moment and are not in a position to accept trade-ins which is preventing them from selling 2009 models. At best, most dealers will not price a potential trade in until mid December or even January - such is the pace of depreciation. Some dealers are now appraising trade-ins based on the UK used value.

Then thirdly, the dealer and customer agree a deal and finance is applied for. The customer has a more than 50% chance of being refused.

All of the above will most definitely lead to an RIP situation for a lot of dealers - franchised and independent. Needless to say this will lead to longer dole queues and hardship for lots of people and then whatever ramifications this will have on the wider economy.

Unfortunately, there is no one wave of a magic wand that will rectify this situation - it needs to work itself through. Hindsight will be a wonderful tool when we get to the other side of this, but in the meantime many of could easily find ourselves unemployed.

E92

P.C. wrote: »

But, it is also cheaper to buy a new car in the UK, and bring it here.

Why?

Exchange rates, simple as. That's why there has never been a better time to buy over there.

It must also be pointed out that apart from the UK, Irish cars are still quite cheap compared to their European counterparts before VAT and VRT are applied.

traco

copacetic wrote: »

This is one of the key reasons I personally have little sympathy for dealers.
A 9 month old car here is on dealer forecourts for 10-15% less than new.

It is on the UK dealers forecourts for 30-40% less than new. Nothing to do with tax/vrt. Simply more competition.

That is why it would still be cheaper to import, never mind the different tax treatments

I think this sums it up - the market here has to adjust and people, dealers, sellers and buyers have to change their expectations of what are realistic values for cars.

TBH - I could care less about the huge ego showrooms around the country and after coming back from Germany two weeks ago I did not see any German marque in any of the towns with a showroom anywhere close to what is in this country.

Perhaps this is driven by the main distributor but I cannot see the logic in any main importer / distributor putting such financial demands on the network that they risk the future of their businesses and I would like to know 100% if it is driven by teh manufacturer or some in between "Marcom" muppet. At end of the day their business is selling cars not property development, they need to realise this and get back to basics.

BTW - it has been my experience that the bigger / flashier the garage the poorer the customer experience.

samsemtex

cowenstaff wrote: »

Well argued Ned.

All industries have different levels of service/products - e.g mcdonalds to Shanahans on the green (ingrediance cost the same). If an independant repairer keeps you happy - work away - they will usually shy away from the new stuff as the equipment needed is very expensive - hence the dearer cost of labour in main dealers.

Its amazing how intelligent sane people loose the plot when it comes ot cars, you shell out €20,000 for a new motor and 12 motnhs down the line you moan about €400 for a service, what would you pay to have your washing machine fixed? How much is it for IT to rebuild your lap top following a virus? think about the overheads for these two services - a fraction of a workshop/showroom.

It has always disappointment me of the Irish attitude to construction and motors trades, its smells of begrudgery and cute whore syndrome. The VRT not being paid by all the smart alecs on yellow plates would go a long way to keeping VAT @21 instead of 21.5%.


In general the motor trade has paid some employees well because of skill needs, increasing costs, which as with every other industry ultimately are passed on to the consumer.

The Motor indusrty is on a par with the construction industry and hotels for "hassle" in jobs - any body moving from these industries into other businesses e.g banking, civil service have always excelled on the back of good training and tough experiences. Ive come across many "college" boys and girls or ex bank/insurance people that have run away from careers in the contruction/motor industry after a few months, they couldn't believe how tough it was.

Beware, these people will be in high demand for other industries next year, the recruitment companies are well aware of this - I hope you all dont get too comfortable!

there is so much **** written there its unbelievable. Recently got our c200k serviced. €650 despite the fact there were no major faults. Just an oil change and 1 air filter and...

1 set of wiper blades costing.....€55! When we asked why they were so expensive "oh these are special mercedes blades" Full of ****. We told him take them off and put on the perfectly good ones you pay €5 for in the motor factors.

I bought a volvo s40 off an unnamed VW dealer(newcastle west Autos). Told me the car had one owner. Told me it was running fine and engine was just "tickety" because all mitsubishi engines do that which i know is true.

The car had 3 owners and came from england, it had to have its cylinders replaced which i luckily got done within the warranty period. Warning light then started coming on and they said they had it fixed, they just turned it off. Brought it to them 3 times so either all their expensive equipment is completely useless or they dont have very competent mechanics. Eventually we made them take it to a volvo dealer who had to replace the air mass metre and now they wont pay for it despite it happening within 3 months of me buying it.

In my experience they are all like this and they deserve everything they get.

Oh yeah and my brother needed a new set of wheel nuts for alloys he got off toyota. Keary's wanted €150 for 20 bolts...

P.C.

E92 wrote: »

Exchange rates, simple as. That's why there has never been a better time to buy over there.

That does make a bit of sence, but then are the dealers not also getting the new cars cheaper?

I am not disagreeing with you, just don't understand why you and I can get them cheaper due to the exchange rate, but the dealers can't. I am talking about new cars here.

Now, if both Ireland and the UK are buying these cars from main land Europe, then the UK would have to pay more due the exchange rate, and they would not be cheaper.

E92 wrote: »

It must also be pointed out that apart from the UK, Irish cars are still quite cheap compared to their European counterparts before VAT and VRT are applied.

This I was not aware of. Thanks

VolvoMan

E92 wrote: »

I don't really care ...

Jesus Christ!:eek: Is that the longest post ever on boards.ie?

MODEDIT
even if it is the longest post evvahhh ...no need to bloody quote it all again just for that remark, is there?

Damien360

The one good upshot of this problem in the motor industry, is that when all the dust settles you will be left with a real salesman who has to work for his money. For the last few years they were like TV or hoover salesmen. "Theres the car...now where is your money...and damned if you are getting a deal....I have commision to make". We walked in, looked at the new car and just shovled out the money.

To make my case I was buying a new car early this year and went ot the VW dealer in Naas. The girl had to be dragged away from her coffee and conversation to talk to me. She showed no interst in what I had and just quoted me the price. When I asked about second hand/year old models of the passat, she pointed to the side door to get to the "old cars". Never even followed me out.

I got the same crap in Ford dealers in Newbridge from a girl there before a very good salesman saw me get mad and approached me. His deal just was'nt good enough but I nearly bought from him. No crap from him at all. Bought avensis from kildare toyota dealer that day on a good one year old.

I repaid the Ford dealer and that particular salesman's approach with the purchase of my company car from there. I did the research and found an ex-demo mondeo there and got the boss to deal with them solely. He has since bought 4 other Mondeos from the same guy.

To summarise, I pray for the collapse of the VW Naas dealer and his useless staff. And I hope that the Ford dealer and particular that salesman the very best fortune. By the way, the guy in Newbridge is David. Cannot remember his surname for the life of me.

crosstownk

Damien360 wrote: »

The one good upshot of this problem in the motor industry, is that when all the dust settles you will be left with a real salesman who has to work for his money. For the last few years they were like TV or hoover salesmen. "Theres the car...now where is your money...and damned if you are getting a deal....I have commision to make". We walked in, looked at the new car and just shovled out the money.

To make my case I was buying a new car early this year and went ot the VW dealer in Naas. The girl had to be dragged away from her coffee and conversation to talk to me. She showed no interst in what I had and just quoted me the price. When I asked about second hand/year old models of the passat, she pointed to the side door to get to the "old cars". Never even followed me out.

I got the same crap in Ford dealers in Newbridge from a girl there before a very good salesman saw me get mad and approached me. His deal just was'nt good enough but I nearly bought from him. No crap from him at all. Bought avensis from kildare toyota dealer that day on a good one year old.

I repaid the Ford dealer and that particular salesman's approach with the purchase of my company car from there. I did the research and found an ex-demo mondeo there and got the boss to deal with them solely. He has since bought 4 other Mondeos from the same guy.

To summarise, I pray for the collapse of the VW Naas dealer and his useless staff. And I hope that the Ford dealer and particular that salesman the very best fortune. By the way, the guy in Newbridge is David. Cannot remember his surname for the life of me.

What you say is typical of many dealers and is probably the root of some problems.

Dealers were so busy during the boom time that they simply needed extra salesmen and some took the ex-hoover or ex-TV salesman and let them off selling cars. The thing is, in the boom time, most decent brands of cars sold themselves with very little effort from the salesman who had little or no training. Now it's a different story and as you say, it could well be the case that the real car salesmen will be the ones that survive.

old boy

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

A lad I'm working with told me an interesting story about his previous employer. They had a car in stock, and had no interest from anyone about it - the car was on the forecourt for a year and didn't budge. This lad offered 3k for a 4k car and the salesman laughed at him. The car was put down the back after a while and waited there and rotted - was eventually scrapped.
He loved to remind the salesman of the sale that never was (said salesman was a bit of a bollo* anyway, so no love loss!)

The fact that so many are refusing to take a loss could account for a lot of places going bust. Something is better than nothing.

similar happened to me, buying a banger from a dealer, he valued the car at a grand, my value was 600 which i offered he said no he would crush it first, which he did, the idea being keep the price up

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Seems to me there is a lot of anger being vented at the motor trade in here.

I hope something is done soon, because if its not, this country is in for a big big shock the next few years....

...Fact is, I hope anyone who imports a car from the UK gets untold hardship with it.;)

We don't owe you a living. Get used to it.

Captain Slow IRL

old boy wrote: »

similar happened to me, buying a banger from a dealer, he valued the car at a grand, my value was 600 which i offered he said no he would crush it first, which he did, the idea being keep the price up

Pride always comes before a fall:D

10-10-20

cowenstaff wrote: »

Membership of the SIMI is usually a good sign.

SIMI - Really?

Ride me sideways, is another one!

cancan

Too many dealers treated people as a means to make money and not a customer.

Hence why there is such mass distrust of dealers.

People got sick of being shafted in the end.

When "a service" is abused into screwing the customer for all you can, best of luck to your business.

Keep the customer happy, and you will make money is how they should have been run.
Unfortunatly, too many SIMI members but the cart before the horse.

ninty9er

pred racer wrote: »

Exactly!!
If I leave my car in for a service, then its a service I want, not all that other tat. by all means ask if I want it done, but dont assume that I want new wipers and then charge me for it.

as far as all the specialised equipment goes, thats there to make the dealers job easier, not so you can charge me more for it! With 10 ramps, 10 mechanics etc etc economy of scale should come into play and it should be cheaper.

It all comes down to one point though, if you are willing to pay the dealer price and are happy with the work then grand, if not go Independant and find a place with equal service for less money (and also sales, any indo car dealer can get you a new car) Hopefully this downturn will weed out the theivin chancers and the good outlets will be left and will be competing on price and service.

Generally a main dealer will have adescription of what gets done with a price on it postered in the service reception.

If you don't like it go elsewhere. They'll generally wash it too, which is not earth shattering but is costing them about a fiver plus PRSI and Employers Liability Insurance for an extra person.

traco

Damien360 wrote: »

To make my case I was buying a new car early this year and went ot the VW dealer in Naas. The girl had to be dragged away from her coffee and conversation to talk to me. She showed no interst in what I had and just quoted me the price. When I asked about second hand/year old models of the passat, she pointed to the side door to get to the "old cars". Never even followed me out.

Work in Naas - Got similar treatment from her - was asked to look at a year old Touareg for a buddy. Persuaded her to show us it out the back, manky, had a good nose around. Screwdriver hanging out through the stone guard on the bottom. Front driver pillar did not fit flush with the front wing and something looked off. Asked he if it had been crashed and she looked at me in disgust and walked off. Told her she could keep it.

BTW the MB side is just as bad. Buying in 06 for January 07. Booked a test drive for a tuesday around 12 as I was collecting another car in Dublin and wanted to test back to back. He told me to phone on the way down and there'd be no problems. Phoned from the M50 and was told the car wasn't there - Apparently it had been taken to the airport and when I asked how long, he told me it was parked there and the driver had flown out for a few days. Clowns???

This was for an expensive car, straight deal, no trade in so told him exactly where he could shove it. Bought from Annesley on the old Airport road after a test drive that evening seeing as he could arrange a demo at short notice and could correspond by email. Ended up switching from BMW to MB due to the BMW sales attitude.

Vote with your feet - good dealers will survive and those riding on hot air will disappear.

10-10-20

Just to give an example of how large dealers shaft customers, I dropped my 156 in for a service last year. It was the standard afair - oil, filters - the rest.
The oil (Selenia) alone was €16 per liter. It came to €80.

If I was to turn the tables and take a dealer's car for a service and try extract that price for oil, do you think I'd walk out alive?

An then, they used to charge €32 a spark-plug when I could get them in the UK for £6.50 each...!

So, there is a huge chasm between what a dealer thinks he can get away with and what's actually acceptable. As a result, I now do all of the services unless I really need the dealer stamp just to make the log-book look acceptable...

cowenstaff

samsemtex wrote: »

there is so much **** written there its unbelievable. Recently got our c200k serviced. €650 despite the fact there were no major faults. Just an oil change and 1 air filter and...

1 set of wiper blades costing.....€55! When we asked why they were so expensive "oh these are special mercedes blades" Full of ****. We told him take them off and put on the perfectly good ones you pay €5 for in the motor factors.

I bought a volvo s40 off an unnamed VW dealer(newcastle west Autos). Told me the car had one owner. Told me it was running fine and engine was just "tickety" because all mitsubishi engines do that which i know is true.

The car had 3 owners and came from england, it had to have its cylinders replaced which i luckily got done within the warranty period. Warning light then started coming on and they said they had it fixed, they just turned it off. Brought it to them 3 times so either all their expensive equipment is completely useless or they dont have very competent mechanics. Eventually we made them take it to a volvo dealer who had to replace the air mass metre and now they wont pay for it despite it happening within 3 months of me buying it.

In my experience they are all like this and they deserve everything they get.

Oh yeah and my brother needed a new set of wheel nuts for alloys he got off toyota. Keary's wanted €150 for 20 bolts...

In to great words of Robert DeNiro - if you can't afford the car "buy a f**king Honda"

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Fact is, I hope anyone who imports a car from the UK gets untold hardship with it.;)

cowenstaff wrote: »

In to great words of Robert DeNiro - if you can't afford the car "buy a f**king Honda"

Sorry you're going under, lads. I really am.

Highsider

Was going to buy the family a 06 focus 1.6 Lx here in Dublin August gone. Looked around everywhere and most dealers where in and around the same price give or take 500-750 euro for a 25-30k mile motor. I ended up buying one in England from cargiant and saved myself 5000 euro give or take a few bob after the VRT was paid. Motor trade good ridence.

Drummerboy08

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Seems to me there is a lot of anger being vented at the motor trade in here.

I hope something is done soon, because if its not, this country is in for a big big shock the next few years.

I wonder if these people will start bringing their kids to school in the Uk soon, becase its cheaper than here. Or maybe, Put the father or mother in a home in the Uk because its cheaper than here too.. Wonder if i tried to import a house for some of these, think it'd work? Stick it on the back off a transporter sure, n lob it over on the ferry.

Fact is, I hope anyone who imports a car from the UK gets untold hardship with it.;)

This has to be one of the most ridicules posts I have ever seen on boards.
Its attitudes like this that has given people such a bad opinion of dealers.

junkyard

Just curious but what profit do ye think would be fair on a car because from what I can see from most posters around here, car dealers shouldn't make any? As in any retail business the amount of strokes pulled by the public would make the hairs stand on the back of your neck, yet as a business person your expected to be absolutely above board at every single turn.