Motor Trade RIP (1888-2008)

Boskowski

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Increase the VRT on imported vehicles, decrease the VRT on Irish vehicles. This will give the buyer more incentive to buy in ireland, will help restart the motor trade, and in turn help the other trades that are directly, and indirectly relying on it.

What are 'Irish vehicles' anyway? As there are no Irish car manufacturers I assume you are talking about vehicles qualifying to be Irish when being brought into the country by a dealership rather than an individual?

That would be a great idea. Because sure enough the car dealers would see the light after being given a lifeline and would all turn into fair and honest traders. They sure wouldn't use this to screw us over again.

VRT is something which the EU turns a blind eye on for some strange reason. The government must have made some weirdly strong case for it at some stage 'cos really it's against the very EU mantra (free trade). How you could actually increase it though I cannot see.

junkyard

English cars aren't all they're cracked up to be tbh, salt is still used on the roads there and the amount of rust you'll find on bolts etc. underneath can be staggering and they're very good at rebuilding damaged cars there too. I'd always buy from a reputable dealer or at least get the AA to check the car out.

Darragh29

junkyard wrote: »

English cars aren't all they're cracked up to be tbh, salt is still used on the roads there and the amount of rust you'll find on bolts etc. underneath can be staggering and they're very good at rebuilding damaged cars there too. I'd always buy from a reputable dealer or at least get the AA to check the car out.

I don't know what the AA would find that anyone else wouldn't. They charge over 300 odd Euro for an inspection and don't test even test emissions... The same organisation have had a lot to say lately about every other business in the motor industry offering value for money, from petrol stations to garages and they can charge 300 Euro for an inspection where the only two tools they actually use is an inspection lamp and a lever bar...

Stevie Dakota

So a dealer will offer me less for my UK car in a trade in?
Does that mean I can expect it to see it priced on his forecourt less than the equivalent Irish model. Of course not.
It is more scare mongering about UK cars and pure BS.

If their rational is that I paid less for it so they should give me less as a trade in, does the same apply if you had negotiated a great discount of a new Irish car?

Ice_Box

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

So a dealer will offer me less for my UK car in a trade in?
Does that mean I can expect it to see it priced on his forecourt less than the equivalent Irish model. Of course not.
It is more scare mongering about UK cars and pure BS.

If their rational is that I paid less for it so they should give me less as a trade in, does the same apply if you had negotiated a great discount of a new Irish car?

my car is Irish from new and they wont take it at all.

knifey_spoonie

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

So a dealer will offer me less for my UK car in a trade in?
car?

NO It Means they wont take it at all

I know that i just refuse them point blank and i will give you the reasons

1) History- its very hard to trace the history of an english car, invoices can be faked easily

With a Irish car i can ring the dealer/person who has serviced it and ask do they have a record, I can also access the warranty data base so i can check that there is gradual increase in milage, and it has'nt been clocked

2) Ease of work

You talk to any Mechanic and ask them what the think of english imports and they will hate to work on them, you go near drop links, bushes, roll bar links, brakes . They will nearly always be rusted solid, This means you have to allow allot more time to work and these therefor higher rocon costs. Also just a general pain in the arse

3) Warranted mileage

This is much easier to do on a irish car as like i said i can get in contact with the people who serviced the car, and i can check warranty history, i can also check the NCT cert. I dont know what a forged MOT cert looks like do you?

4)Cant warranty

Heres the killer

I cant put a warranty on the car, and if i cant do that then i aint retailing the car, if you cant stand behind the car 100% i aint selling it.


It very easy for all of ye to shout DROP PRICES

Think of the impact of doing this has, The fact is that most cars that are in forecourts now are at loss, Its been muttered that on average most dealers are losing between 10-15k a week since about mid july, The dealers have been taking the pain for months now and at the moment its starting to come to a head.

You can all rush and say is about time this happened.

You can give out about the time you let yourself get screwed by some cowboy dealer who was in it for a fast buck, but for feck sake dont tar everyone with the same brush, i know alot of genuine dealers who are finding it hard to keep the doors open, these are the honest people who are employing people in you own area and ye are like a crowd at the local cock fight shouting for blood

niceirishfella

knife_fighter wrote: »

ye are like a crowd at the local cock fight shouting for blood

funny you should use that analogy - eye for an eye and all that! :eek:

i prefer this analogy - they have been the one's giving it to joe public up the A**E for years now :eek:- , now, they are going to get it up their A**E'S , ten fold:rolleyes:

Darragh29

niceirishfella wrote: »

funny you should use that analogy - eye for an eye and all that! :eek:

i prefer this analogy - they have been the one's giving it to joe public up the A**E for years now :eek:- , now, they are going to get it up their A**E'S , ten fold:rolleyes:

'Tis strange in a way because what you'll have is a smaller pool of franchsied dealerships at the end of all this, which will likely mean prices going up and not down. If you had more competition in the industry you would have better value, better service and a happier customer.

Drummerboy08

I think people in here just dont realise how important the trade is to this economy. If it goes bust for real, there will be a massive weight added to the shoulders of the dole, along with loss of tax income from the employees/businesses.

Fine, go and buy your car in the UK. I wish you all the best with it. I just hope you're happy to help the british economy on, while p*ssing on your own. Grand, i'll wait to see the comments like "dont give me that patriotic BS", but last time i looked, the british govt dont pay for motorways to be built it ireland, or pay for the gardai, or HSE, or anything else for that matter.

But ffs do not wish the misery and pain caused by unemployment on the many of thousands employed by the industry here. I'm in a lucky position because im in fleet and leasing, so we still shift a few cars, i can only imagine what its like in the retail sector.

cancan

knife_fighter wrote: »

You can all rush and say is about time this happened.

Rush in! - ye've been robbing people for years, and there are more than enough threads here for years on the subject.

Why not try to provide a good product at a good price? If that was the norm, people would feel some sympathy.

Would that be too much to ask for?

Instead of bashing english cars, the vrt scheme, etc etc, maybe the dealers could try and figure out what they did wrong to get such a bad name.

And again Dummerboy, how does buying a second hand irish car generate more money for the gov?
The VRT on second hand cars from england is about the only bring spot in the revenues books at the moment.

Should people spend more for less at SIMI dealerships to keep ye boys in business at their own expense?
It's a bit much to ask the customers to pay more to keep ye profitable.

Business is business - if something is not selling at the price you have it for sale for, it is too expensive....

Zube

knife_fighter wrote: »

You can give out about the time you let yourself get screwed by some cowboy dealer who was in it for a fast buck

All the dealers I've dealt with have been Main Dealers, supposedly not cowboys. The biggest dealer I ever visited was the worst.

We really are not giving out about back-street sheepskin-wearing con men: we're giving out about Main Dealer SIMI members.

Darragh29

knife_fighter wrote: »

NO It Means they wont take it at all

I know that i just refuse them point blank and i will give you the reasons

1) History- its very hard to trace the history of an english car, invoices can be faked easily

With a Irish car i can ring the dealer/person who has serviced it and ask do they have a record, I can also access the warranty data base so i can check that there is gradual increase in milage, and it has'nt been clocked

2) Ease of work

You talk to any Mechanic and ask them what the think of english imports and they will hate to work on them, you go near drop links, bushes, roll bar links, brakes . They will nearly always be rusted solid, This means you have to allow allot more time to work and these therefor higher rocon costs. Also just a general pain in the arse

3) Warranted mileage

This is much easier to do on a irish car as like i said i can get in contact with the people who serviced the car, and i can check warranty history, i can also check the NCT cert. I dont know what a forged MOT cert looks like do you?

4)Cant warranty

Heres the killer

I cant put a warranty on the car, and if i cant do that then i aint retailing the car, if you cant stand behind the car 100% i aint selling it.


It very easy for all of ye to shout DROP PRICES

Think of the impact of doing this has, The fact is that most cars that are in forecourts now are at loss, Its been muttered that on average most dealers are losing between 10-15k a week since about mid july, The dealers have been taking the pain for months now and at the moment its starting to come to a head.

You can all rush and say is about time this happened.

You can give out about the time you let yourself get screwed by some cowboy dealer who was in it for a fast buck, but for feck sake dont tar everyone with the same brush, i know alot of genuine dealers who are finding it hard to keep the doors open, these are the honest people who are employing people in you own area and ye are like a crowd at the local cock fight shouting for blood

Some of the above I couldn't argue with. But at the same time, the motor industry is the one industry that hasn't changed at all in 10-15 years.

We've had the madness in recent years of car dealers taking helicopters to the Galway Races, this madness was unsustainable.

Drummerboy08

cancan wrote: »

Rush in! - ye've been robbing people for years, and there are more than enough threads here for years on the subject.

Why not try to provide a good product at a good price? If that was the norm, people would feel some sympathy.

Would that be too much to ask for?

Instead of bashing english cars, the vrt scheme, etc etc, maybe the dealers could try and figure out what they did wrong to get such a bad name.

And again Dummerboy, how does buying a second hand irish car generate more money for the gov?
The VRT on second hand cars from england is about the only bring spot in the revenues books at the moment.

Should people spend more for less at SIMI dealerships to keep ye boys in business at their own expense?

Business is business - if something is not selling at the price you have it for sale for, it is too expensive....

You didnt really think this through. You know how business works dont you?

You buy a car from an irish dealer
Dealer pays his staff
Salesman makes his commission
Staff + Salesman buy their goods
shop makes money on goods bought + pays wholesaler
Wholesaler makes money + pays staff

The cycle continues, all while the government have -
Taxed the money the dealer/staff/salesman make
Taxed the goods the staff/salesman have bought
Taxed the shop on its profit
Taxed the wholesaler on its profit

Now apply this to the english market - its all the very same except the English govt makes their cut instead. I know this sounds like patriotic bs, but how do you expect people to survive when there is no money coming in.

Do you think english dealers are any better? Bear in mind this is the country that gave us del boy.

Biro

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

You didnt really think this through. You know how business works dont you?

You buy a car from an irish dealer
Dealer pays his staff
Salesman makes his commission
Staff + Salesman buy their goods
shop makes money on goods bought + pays wholesaler
Wholesaler makes money + pays staff

The cycle continues, all while the government have -
Taxed the money the dealer/staff/salesman make
Taxed the goods the staff/salesman have bought
Taxed the shop on its profit
Taxed the wholesaler on its profit

Now apply this to the english market - its all the very same except the English govt makes their cut instead. I know this sounds like patriotic bs, but how do you expect people to survive when there is no money coming in.

Do you think english dealers are any better? Bear in mind this is the country that gave us del boy.

You're taking it all out on us, who go and buy our car from the UK. However the bee in your bonnet should be with the "dealers" who buy in the UK, bring back here and flog - and pay no taxes at all! They're the ones screwing up your business more than the rest.
Point 2 - I'll buy my car in Ireland when I can afford to buy it in Ireland. I just don't have €4k or €5k to waste to keep my local sales guys in employment. Patriotism or not, I don't have the money to do it! If I could trade in my current car for the car I want for even a grand more than it'd cost me to sell it privately and buy in the UK I'd do it. But I can't even get close.

cancan

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

You didnt really think this through. You know how business works dont you?

You buy a car from an irish dealer
Dealer pays his staff
Salesman makes his commission
Staff + Salesman buy their goods
shop makes money on goods bought + pays wholesaler
Wholesaler makes money + pays staff

The cycle continues, all while the government have -
Taxed the money the dealer/staff/salesman make
Taxed the goods the staff/salesman have bought
Taxed the shop on its profit
Taxed the wholesaler on its profit

Now apply this to the english market - its all the very same except the English govt makes their cut instead. I know this sounds like patriotic bs, but how do you expect people to survive when there is no money coming in.

Do you think english dealers are any better? Bear in mind this is the country that gave us del boy.

A - Bringing imaginary people into an argument is never good.

B - The only transaction you mentioned there that was customer centric, was the customer giving the dealer money. It's up to the dealer to provide a service that the customer is happy with - without that the customer won't return, which is what is happening now. That is how the business works I hate to tell you. The customer doesn't give two farts about your costs - that's your problem at the end of the day, and it's up to you to have the necessary business acumen to figure out how to make this work.


Anyway, if english cars are as bad as you make out, you'd think ye'd be delighted with all these sub standard rusty english clocked cars coming into your service departments for repairs.

You treat customers like ****e, with rampant price fixing, overcharging, needless work and this is what happens.

If you don't understand this, you should not be in business.

The SIMI like the Vintners association before, were so interested in protecting themselves and making megga bucks, that they forgot the most important thing - the customer, without whom there is no show.

Drummerboy08

Taking it out on you isnt my intention, i apologise.

What i dont like is people coming on here, relishing the prospect of a lot of people who, have done nothing wrong, becoming unemployed.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and whatever industry you are in was taking a kicking, would you be happy about car salesmen coming on hoping you get laid off?

cancan

I take no glee in the fact that irish dealers are in trouble. People loosing jobs is no laughing matter, and these are serious times.

But they need to ask whether the service they provide is good enough?
And why do they have an image problem?

Hopefully a stronger better industry will emerge from these dark times....

tontooreilly

Anybody know what the margins on new cars are??

Drummerboy08

cancan wrote: »

I take no glee in the fact that irish dealers are in trouble. People loosing jobs is no laughing matter, and these are serious times.

But they need to ask whether the service they provide is good enough?
And why do they have an image problem?

This is completely understandable and i accept in hands down.
A lot of dealers have provided poor, and very poor services to their customers.

There are still however, alot of dealers who offer a great service to their customers, and for this reason they have a lot of repeat and loyal customers.

If i was found to not be looking after a customer to the best of ny ability i'd have my ars* kicked up and down the office. In my game, not treating a customer right doesnt mean losing the business for one car, it means losing the business for 50/100 cars.

I think this is something that retail dealers have to work on alot over the next few years. But i would prefer to see some constructive feedback coming from the public, instead of whats been going on in here the last few days.

But, who am i to say what you should or shouldnt do...

cancan

Fair play - your honesty is appreciated.

Biro

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

This is completely understandable and i accept in hands down.
A lot of dealers have provided poor, and very poor services to their customers.

There are still however, alot of dealers who offer a great service to their customers, and for this reason they have a lot of repeat and loyal customers.

If i was found to not be looking after a customer to the best of ny ability i'd have my ars* kicked up and down the office. In my game, not treating a customer right doesnt mean losing the business for one car, it means losing the business for 50/100 cars.

I think this is something that retail dealers have to work on alot over the next few years. But i would prefer to see some constructive feedback coming from the public, instead of whats been going on in here the last few days.

But, who am i to say what you should or shouldnt do...

You see? You can give a reasonable post when we beat you into it...

[/JOKE]

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

But i would prefer to see some constructive feedback coming from the public, instead of whats been going on in here the last few days.

We've given you feedback, we've been giving it for years. It's up to you to make it constructive by taking it on board and improving your service. If you provide a professional service to us, your customers, then I wish you all the best in the tough times ahead. But if you continue to spout nonsense about not doing warranty work on imports etc etc then don't expect my pity when your business goes down the toilet. The ball's in your court. Is that fair enough?

Drummerboy08

I'm not being a pr*ck about it, but it is very frustrating to hear people saying they hope the industry in which i work in will collapse.

Its not really a nice thing to hear, i wouldnt wish it on anyone, and hopefully it wont be done on this again. AudiChris has posted in this thread, what his post contains sums it up i think.

I've also said i dont encourage dealers not doing warranty work, i'm not involved in that side of thing at all because im not in the retail sector. But, unfortunately it is true that it is happening in a lot of dealers around the country, and there is very little can be done about it.

And as far as i'm concerned, the balls in the court of the retail dealers! Aint my baby no more....

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I'm not being a pr*ck about it, but it is very frustrating to hear people saying they hope the industry in which i work in will collapse.

Its not really a nice thing to hear, i wouldnt wish it on anyone, and hopefully it wont be done on this again. AudiChris has posted in this thread, what his post contains sums it up i think.

I understand that, but you have to ask yourself why people feel this way about Irish dealers. You cannot solve a problem if you continue to deny that it even exists.

Drummerboy08

I know the problem exists! I'm in a different kind of position from the retail lads, i hear from customers of ours, who would tell me about a problem they have with, say, the wives car in a retail dealer. We do our best to solve these problems.

I'm only a lowly sales lad, i cant really do much on my own, whatever customers i have are looked after. I cant really do much more than that.

Maybe a petition could be started here to get as many signitures as possible, do up an email representing these problems, and sent it to the SIMI and Dept of Transport? Just a suggestion. Many voices together will shout louder than one. I'd be up for this idea, because i do think change has to be made to the motor industry.

Darsad

Drummer boy is right money circulates in an economy I pay you , You Pay Him , He pays Me ! Now I certainly do not support the actions or sentiments of the present gov and cant wait to see the back of them but if we were all to head north or hop on a plane or ferry to the UK we may as well shut up shop as a nation. I have decided to try and buy the santa pressies this year aprox € 1000 from Irish owned local companies.
Maybe I could get them for € 650 in the North but there ya go !!

Darragh29

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I know the problem exists! I'm in a different kind of position from the retail lads, i hear from customers of ours, who would tell me about a problem they have with, say, the wives car in a retail dealer. We do our best to solve these problems.

I'm only a lowly sales lad, i cant really do much on my own, whatever customers i have are looked after. I cant really do much more than that.

Maybe a petition could be started here to get as many signitures as possible, do up an email representing these problems, and sent it to the SIMI and Dept of Transport? Just a suggestion. Many voices together will shout louder than one. I'd be up for this idea, because i do think change has to be made to the motor industry.

The SIMI are part of the problem. There has been a collapse in the industry and the best they have come up with to date is possibly the worst TV ad I have ever seen and a ream of A4 sheets posted out to dealerships to rat on yellow plate drivers, as if they are part of the problem!

The SIMI needs to be replaced with a representative body that represents the whole industry, not just franchised operations, which is the situation at the moment.

The franchised model I think has become way too big, with every franschised operation in the country now being run by a big operator with a big swinging di*k, running running multiple brands, i.e, GREED.

I think the SIMI have to be replaced with something that represents the best of the motor industry, not the worst...

Darsad

Darragh29 wrote: »

The SIMI needs to be replaced with a representative body that represents the whole industry, not just franchised operations, which is the situation at the moment...

That already is the case and part of the problem the SIMI represents too many vested interests from Motor distributors , retailers ,oil companies transport and god knows who else they are incapable of making any decision or strict policy as whats good for one member is bad for another and so they pussy foot around issues and are as useful as a choclate fire guard .

Darragh29

Darsad wrote: »

That already is the case and part of the problem the SIMI represents too many vested interests from Motor distributors , retailers ,oil companies transport and god knows who else they are incapable of making any decision or strict policy as whats good for one member is bad for another and so they pussy foot around issues and are as useful as a choclate fire guard .

Two of the above fall under the franshised category of the SIMI. I wouldn't get too worked up over the oil companies for the moment. It's the franchised end of the industry that is responsible for the lack of trust in the industry. I've been pointing this out here long before there was a recession.

I'm delighted that the industry is in a mess because I've been seeing the unfairness of what has been going on for years and now we might see some long overdue focus on value for money. How on earth is a good indy garage supposed to gain ground and stand on its own two feet when it has no option but to buy parts from its main competitor???

The whole tilt of the industry in favour of the franchised operation is now over thank God. I feel sorry for many decent folks I know who are losing their jobs, but I think there is no change without opportunity and decent people out there losing their jobs should look at the opportunity that is out there right now.

For an industry that is known for poor service, lack of transparency, etc, there is surely room for some folks to do it a bit better...

Drummerboy08

There are alot of problems with the SIMI - namely who they represent. Your right on that one. What can be done to change this?

- Reshuffle the current set up within the SIMI to represent more than just main dealers?

-Disband the SIMI and ask for a government committee to look after it?

- Seek a new, independant body to represent the trade?

There is no point in ranting and raving about the current problems, lets see something done about this. If any one has any suggestions as to what would bring irish consumers back into the showrooms please post them. Lets face it, granted that you save money by buying in the uk, but it is a massive inconvenience and risk to do so.

Suggestions anyone?

Rob