What maps for a hill walkers GPS?

deise gal

Hi my father is mad into hill walking recently bought himself a walkers GPS(kinda looks like a big mobile) anyway basically he was saying how he needs to get some OSI maps for it!However i am clueless and want to get it as a christmas present something that he wil no doubt use. So which ones do i need. Had a look at the website and i was totally lost!So basically a link is what i need for maps that will cover Munster & Leinster & depending on cost the rest of Ireland.

Thanks guys

Anan1

You can get DVDs called OSI Trail Master, which have OSI maps on them. You cannot, however, download the maps to a GPS - only the routes which you've created/downloaded on the PC. There is a new service called GeoLives, though, and apparently you'll be able to download OS maps from there onto the GPS very soon.

Alun

Anan1 wrote: »

You can get DVDs called OSI Trail Master, which have OSI maps on them. You cannot, however, download the maps to a GPS - only the routes which you've created/downloaded on the PC.

Not only routes, but you can also upload and download stored tracks and waypoints.

There is a new service called GeoLives, though, and apparently you'll be able to download OS maps from there onto the GPS very soon.

That depends. GeoLives will allow you to download map segments online into a Trailmaster-like application on your PC. You can also, on Windows Mobile or Symbian OS smartphones, install these maps onto these devices, but you can't download them onto Garmin GPS's, as these use a proprietary Garmin format (the OSi maps are raster maps, albeit encrypted so that they can only be used in a licensed application.)

However, all is (probably) not lost, since I have heard from someone in OSi that Garmin have recently bought the rights to the OSi 1:50k mapping data, so that would indicate that they're probably working on a mapping product as we speak. You'd buy this from Garmin though and not from OSi. I wouldn't hold your breath though, since if the maps are anything like the quality of Garmin's GB Topo maps, then they're probably not worth the money.

On a separate point, the advertising for both GPS's and OSi's Trailmaster here in Ireland seems to indicate, deliberately or not, to the non tech-savvy that it's possible to download the supplied maps onto the GPS. The people in the shops who sell these things to unsuspecting punters are equally to blame for the confusion. There are dozens of posts on OSI's forum for Trailmaster users from people under exactly the same impression.

In any case, anyone venturing out into the hills shouldn't be relying on a GPS, even with maps installed for navigating purposes. They're a great additional aid for navigating to and from waypoints or following routes that you've planned out beforehand, especially in poor visibility, but please, please take a paper map, compass and a full route card (Trailmaster can generate this for you), and know how to use them as well.

Finally, there are some free 'maps' (contours and large-ish bodies of water only) available from the SMC (Scottish Mountaineering Council) website, although if you're not even slightly technically minded it might be better to stay away from them. There is a slightly more user friendly version available here http://emeraldisland.free.fr though which also includes relief shading.

Anan1

Thanks for that, Alun, I found that very educational. I'm expecting a Garmin Oregon 400t in the post tomorrow, I bought it in preference to a 60CSX on the basis that I could download the maps from GeoLives complete with aerial photos. Still, I can plot a trail on Geolives, print out the map with the trail on it, download the trail to the GPS, and use the nav to verify that I am where I should be on the paper map, does that sound reasonable?

Alun

Yes, that's the way I use mine, i.e. do all the route planning on the PC, print out the map with all waypoints on it along with a route card, and upload the route to the GPS. I take the printed map and route card with me, but also a 'normal' map, and compass. Occasionally I'll deliberately not use the GPS just to keep my navigational skills honed.

I als have the "Emerald Isle" version of the SMC contour maps on my etrex Vista HCx, and while it looks pretty, it is actually of little practical use to be honest. I rarely look at it, and use my printed maps for navigation.

Regarding the Oregon series, and also the newer Colorados, it would appear that these do support raster imagery in some way, as they have a 3-D relief map built into them, that underlays any topo map installed on them. In fact for the UK only, Garmin and OSGB have brought out hybrid mapping that combines both raster and vector data .. see http://www.garmin.com/garmin/cms/site/uk/cache/offonce/uk/onthetrail/garmin-gb-discoverer;jsessionid=EF66FF72EA7F58040954714C9919823A. This only works on the Oregon or Colorado units though, not on any of the etrex range, which is what most people have.

Now, having said that, it wouldn't entirely surprise me if some enterprising individual manages to crack the format Garmin are using to embed raster data into their mapping some time soon, so that it might be possible to get home-made scanned maps onto these units in the future. There's a whole community out there creating home-brewed maps for existing Garmin's using utilities like cgsMapper, so I'm sure they're working on this as we speak. I suppose it may also be possible that Garmin will release their Ireland mapping in this format too, you never know.

Ron DMC

Actually, I've been trying to find good maps for topography but I can't find anything that even looks remotely decent for symbian? I was hoping I could rely on my e71 for an actual map resource as opposed to just GPS. Having to carry a sheet 50 around wicklow really defeats the purpose of having the feature on the phone in the first place and having to program waypoints beforehand sounds like a pain in the arse.

fergalr

Ronny Mitchell wrote: »

Having to carry a sheet 50 around wicklow really defeats the purpose of having the feature on the phone in the first place and having to program waypoints beforehand sounds like a pain in the arse.

Alun wrote: »

In any case, anyone venturing out into the hills shouldn't be relying on a GPS, even with maps installed for navigating purposes. They're a great additional aid for navigating to and from waypoints or following routes that you've planned out beforehand, especially in poor visibility, but please, please take a paper map, compass and a full route card (Trailmaster can generate this for you), and know how to use them as well.

I have to +1 to Alun's comments, in light of the Ronny Mitchell's - if you are going into the hills, you should not rely solely on an electronic device, be it phone, gps etc to get you home - what if the battery runs out, or if it gets wet?
Strongly recommend carrying the appropriate map, be it 50, 56 etc - it's not heavy. As a general rule, if you need to bring an electronic device with you to help navigate, bring the non electronic backup too.

(If your just talking about when your driving round lowland Wicklow or something then it's not such a big deal, but the context, and the desire for topo map would indicate your going into the hills.)

Alun

fergalr wrote: »

I have to +1 to Alun's comments, in light of the Ronny Mitchell's - if you are going into the hills, you should not rely solely on an electronic device, be it phone, gps etc to get you home - what if the battery runs out, or if it gets wet?

Yes, I was going to say something on that post too, but then I couldn't believe that someone who appears to be a Mod for the Scouting/Guiding forum could believe that going out into the Wicklow Mountains armed only with a phone based GPS was good idea. Or could they :eek: ?

Anan1

One more question - what are the best sites for downloading a range of Irish walks?

Ron DMC

Alun wrote: »

Yes, I was going to say something on that post too, but then I couldn't believe that someone who appears to be a Mod for the Scouting/Guiding forum could believe that going out into the Wicklow Mountains armed only with a phone based GPS was good idea. Or could they :eek: ?

fergalr wrote:

I have to +1 to Alun's comments, in light of the Ronny Mitchell's - if you are going into the hills, you should not rely solely on an electronic device, be it phone, gps etc to get you home - what if the battery runs out, or if it gets wet?

Of course not fellas, I'd never suggest not having a map with you.
But having a map and compass hanging around your neck is one thing. Having them tucked away neatly in your bag is a much more preferable option in my opinion, especially if there's any wind blowing your map all over the shop.

As for the phone or GPS getting wet, I usually have a few zip lock bags with me in case the weather turns. They usually keep fairly watertight, dropped a ziplock in a stream once and the mp3 player in it survived.

Batteries dying is another issue entirely and can obviously be annoying when you need too make a call, but the e71 lasts for days, and I recently got one of those AA powered portable chargers.

fergalr

Of course not fellas, I'd never suggest not having a map with you.
But having a map and compass hanging around your neck is one thing. Having them tucked away neatly in your bag is a much more preferable option in my opinion, especially if there's any wind blowing your map all over the shop.

As for the phone or GPS getting wet, I usually have a few zip lock bags with me in case the weather turns. They usually keep fairly watertight, dropped a ziplock in a stream once and the mp3 player in it survived.

Batteries dying is another issue entirely and can obviously be annoying when you need too make a call, but the e71 lasts for days, and I recently got one of those AA powered portable chargers.

Ah, figured it was just a bit of miscommunication after Alun pointed out your credentials.
Incidentally, I sometimes use these: http://www.argear.com/aloksak-waterproof-bags.html
to waterproof simple electronic gear - their essentially glorified versions of the zip lock bags you are talking about, and while they are a bit more expensive, I've found them very good.

So there you go readers, always carry a map and, be prepared.

Ron DMC

fergalr wrote: »

So there you go readers, always carry a map and, be prepared.

lol.

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

One more question - what are the best sites for downloading a range of Irish walks?

Anyone?:)

fergalr

One more question - what are the best sites for downloading a range of Irish walks?

Someone else could probably do a better job of answer than I could, but I looked into this a while back, and I couldn't find anything with a well setup site and a complete community. Considered setting one up, but didn't think there was a big enough market.

There are a range of walks on mountainviews.ie in the walking section, although you may have to do some leg work to get a GPS track out of the route description (may have to make it yourself from the summits, etc)

You could also look on sites like www.mapmyrun.com for Irish trails, or trails.com, but you may or may not be in luck.

If your interested in another set of walks with route information, www.imra.ie or www.simonstewart.ie might be worth a look - again, you'll have to make GPS tracks yourself from the info there.

Hope this helps somewhat, sorry I don't have anything better - maybe someone else knows a repository of ready map GPS walks..?
Fergal

Alun

fergalr wrote: »

Hope this helps somewhat, sorry I don't have anything better - maybe someone else knows a repository of ready map GPS walks..?

Not that I know of personally, although I'd have my doubts as to how useful just a catalogue of GPS tracks would be without a whole lot of narrative to go with them as well, especially given the lack of detail (esp. wrt to tracks in open country) on standard OSi maps, meaning it'd be quite a lot of work to create and maintain a catalogue of walks like that.

I personally have a back catalogue of tracks for every walk I've done since 2003, but that's for personal use only really. TBH I'd say the best way to get to know the hills in Ireland is to join a local club. Many of the members of such clubs have been walking the same hills for years and will know routes and access points that you wouldn't even begin to guess at by just looking at a map.

Anan1

I suppose what i'm really looking for is a simple way to get the walks in say a book of Wicklow walks onto the nav unit. I can copy them onto the map in GeoLives and put that on the nav, but it's a bit like drawing photographs for want of a copier. By the way, i'm delighted with the Oregon - while not perfect, the basemap is a lot better than i'd expected and certainly good enough to make it easy to see where you are.

IrlJidel

Alun wrote: »

Now, having said that, it wouldn't entirely surprise me if some enterprising individual manages to crack the format Garmin are using to embed raster data into their mapping some time soon, so that it might be possible to get home-made scanned maps onto these units in the future.

Apparently, somebody already has http://moagu.com/. This enterprising individual charges $20.

Alun

IrlJidel wrote: »

Apparently, somebody already has http://moagu.com/. This enterprising individual charges $20.

I know about this ... there's another similar product as well and from what I can tell it's a fudge of the highest order. From what I can make out it effectively tries to display raster mapping using the vector mapping capabilities of the etrex GPS units by defining thousands and thousands of custom symbols corresponding to groups of pixels in the raster map, defined by analysing the content of the map pixel by pixel, and then defining a vector map containing nothing but these symbols arranged in a rectangular grid. By all accounts it's excruciatingly slow to redraw .. not surprising really.

I downloaded the evaluation version to try it but couldn't get anything recognisable out of it using a small section of an OSi map, but I wasn't really trying very hard.

One of the differences between the etrex series and the Colorado/Oregon series appears to be that they have the capability to display raster imagery built into them, thus eliminating the need for such fudges. What isn't known (yet) seems to be how these images are encoded and georeferenced, and it was that which I was referring to in my post.

IrlJidel

Alun wrote: »

I personally have a back catalogue of tracks for every walk I've done since 2003, but that's for personal use only really.

That's valuable data you have there that required a lot of sweat to obtain. ( Unless you were on a quad-bike ;-) )

Would you be interested in contributing to openstreetmap - With your gps traces you could map in the tracks. It would be great to add some hiking data.

For starters I'd like to map some of the more accessible areas that will be part of the new Dublin trails that will be published on dublinmountains.ie.

To this end I've mapped in parts of Hellfire, Massey Wood, Cruagh, Tribradden. see here

Alun

IrlJidel wrote: »

That's valuable data you have there that required a lot of sweat to obtain. ( Unless you were on a quad-bike ;-) )

No, not on a quad-bike! I'm out walking most weekends, and always have my GPS recording my tracks even if I'm not navigating / leading myself.

Would you be interested in contributing to openstreetmap - With your gps traces you could map in the tracks. It would be great to add some hiking data.

For starters I'd like to map some of the more accessible areas that will be part of the new Dublin trails that will be published on dublinmountains.ie.

To this end I've mapped in parts of Hellfire, Massey Wood, Cruagh, Tribradden. see here

I don't really have the time to be honest, but I can send you the tracks of some of the walks I've done in that area if you like? There aren't that many though, most of the walking I do is in the Wicklow Mountains proper rather than the Dublin Mountains.

IrlJidel

Alun wrote: »

I don't really have the time to be honest, but I can send you the tracks of some of the walks I've done in that area if you like? There aren't that many though, most of the walking I do is in the Wicklow Mountains proper rather than the Dublin Mountains.

That would be great. The plan is to map EVERYTHING on openstreetmap, I was just starting in the more accessible areas as that would have most footfall for sunday walkers, geocachers etc to use and correct the maps. Might encourage people to map in other areas they go to that are not mapped.

It would also be cool to have the new Dublin trails done soon after they launch. I'm still waiting for dublinmountains.ie to be updated so I can see where the trails are going to be exactly.

If you want to send them, PM for my email address.

fergalr

That would be great. The plan is to map EVERYTHING on openstreetmap, I was just starting in the more accessible areas as that would have most footfall for sunday walkers, geocachers etc to use and correct the maps. Might encourage people to map in other areas they go to that are not mapped.

It would also be cool to have the new Dublin trails done soon after they launch.

Hey that openstreetmap stuff is really coming along - pretty cool.
IrlJidel: If you are mapping parts of the Dublin mountains, have an account, etc, there's something I'd like to point out, Two Rock Mountain on OpenStreetMap is labelled as being the south east spur of Fairy Castle. I've had conversations with people about this naming before, but as far as I know, and I've looked into it a few times before, Fairy Castle is actually the top of Two Rock mountain, and referring to the spur as Two Rock (as is on openstreetmap) is incorrect.

http://mountainviews.ie/mv/index.php?mtnindex=382
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Rock
both back up what I'm saying.
Perhaps you could change it if your working on this?

IrlJidel

fergalr wrote: »

Hey that openstreetmap stuff is really coming along - pretty cool.
IrlJidel: If you are mapping parts of the Dublin mountains, have an account, etc, there's something I'd like to point out, Two Rock Mountain on OpenStreetMap is labelled as being the south east spur of Fairy Castle. I've had conversations with people about this naming before, but as far as I know, and I've looked into it a few times before, Fairy Castle is actually the top of Two Rock mountain, and referring to the spur as Two Rock (as is on openstreetmap) is incorrect.

http://mountainviews.ie/mv/index.php?mtnindex=382
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Rock
both back up what I'm saying.
Perhaps you could change it if your working on this?

Sure, I'll delete the node. But the 'two rocks' are a good landmark, wonder what kind of node they should be referenced as.

If you click on the '+' you can select different layers:

- The 'Cycle map' layer is best for hikers as it shows contours:
Cycle map layer renders with more emphasis on things useful to cyclists like cycle paths and contours and is updated weekly.
- Mapnik layer is the 'official' map and is updated weekly.

- Osmarender is rendered by a distributed collection of peoples computers and tiles can be rendered on demand or usually changes are noticed and rendered with an hour.

So on Osmarender you can see all the latest summits and paths I've added and they shoudl appear in Mapnik/cyclemap on Thursday.

robinph

fergalr wrote: »

Hey that openstreetmap stuff is really coming along - pretty cool.

Dublin does look a lot more complete now compared to when I last added a couple of things to it ages ago. Will have to have a go with the routable maps they have now got as well and see how they work, or if nothing else to highlight any gaps in the maps as driving around Dublin:
http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/download.html