Local Elections 2009

brettmirl

There's been a lot of talk of next year's local elections on the back of recent opinion polls in the newspapers...

So what are people's thoughts on the make up of the borough and county councils after next years local elections.

Which party will you be voting for?

Stephen

Anyone but the government parties and SF. First preference probably to FG. I'm doing my tiny insignificant bit to inflict as much damage as possible on the gombeen machine that has been running the country for most of my life.

Nightwish

I dont want to vote for FG because the local crowd IMO are self serving idiots....but then again they all are. For me its anyone but FF and SF.

Gonzovision

I won't vote. None of them are capable of doing a decent job.

road_high

Nightwish wrote: »

I dont want to vote for FG because the local crowd IMO are self serving idiots....but then again they all are. For me its anyone but FF and SF.

What do you think of JP Phelan though? Seems young, eager and energetic.

Reckon FG/Lab will hold their majority in the council, if not increase it.

Firetrap

I don't know yet but I know FF and SF will not be getting any ticks from me.

Alzar

Anyone bar John Gormless & the Green party.:mad::mad::mad:

Sully

Nightwish wrote: »

I dont want to vote for FG because the local crowd IMO are self serving idiots....but then again they all are. For me its anyone but FF and SF.

I am curious as to why you dislike them? I don't know any of the KK folk myself. Just curious as to what they have done/not done in Kilkenny that makes you not even consider them. I think that the only real competition will be with FG/Labour and the other party's getting a hammering.

gonzovision wrote: »

I won't vote. None of them are capable of doing a decent job.

How do you know? Its been a FF government for a very long time now and things have not improved. They have been worse. Even if the economic conditions could be blamed solely on the world market the current government have failed to handle it properly. The greens have given the National Broadband Scheme to 3 over Eircom (and lets face it, Eircom would do a better job even if it wasn't that good!) and have just been puppets in government introducing strange ways of combating environmental issues (that bicycle expenses crap and light bulb rule). FG have been doing very well over the last few years and really are offering a damn good alternative. With a great team behind them, fresh and energetic I think they could take this on and do a proper job. Labour have been steady and not improved much but they are better then SF and the Greens imo.

brettmirl

mfitzy wrote: »

What do you think of JP Phelan though? Seems young, eager and energetic.

Reckon FG/Lab will hold their majority in the council, if not increase it.

John Paul Phelan is a Senator and I assume he wont be giving up that seat to run in the locals. He should be in a good position to get a seat at the next General Election if the current trends stay in place.


Interesting too that no one has so far voted for the Green Party. Poor Malcolm and Mary wont be happy!

jiggajt

Why is everyone dismissing sinn fein right off the bat. I grew up in a border town and i sometimes find the southern attitude to sinn fein baffling. We all grew up watching the news reports during the troubles and are aware of some of the attrocities that were carried out by both sides but that needs to be viewed in the context of history.
You dont hear people harping on about the irish people that fianna fail (anti treaty sinn fein at the time) killed during the civil war which they started or how collins' cumman na ngael (fianna gael) government killed irish people. And thats just the civil war time. There are few parties in ireland that dont have blood on their hands in some form but that needs to be left in the history books. Parties should be judged on their abilities and not dismissed outright based on actions carried out in difficlut times.

On a seperate note. Id like to point out a pheomenon that has emerged in politics in the last 15 years or so namely "opposition bashing." This is where the party in government seem to ridicule the opposition to the point where the public believe the opposition are unfit to rule. Ask alot of people what the think of the current admininstration and the response you'll get is well they're crap but what's the alternative etc. If anyone watched the fianna gael ard fheis at the weekend you would see that they are perfectly capable of running the government and have some great ideas. But people would rather be negative. I blame dunphy to be honest.

I know this torrade has little to do with the local elections but i guess my overall point is not to develope pre conceptions about parties based on what the negative majority say.

brettmirl

Sinn Fein did themselves no favours in the run up to the last general election.

They flip-flopped on lots of policies and their overall financial policies scared the ****e out of most people down here...so I doubt it has much to do with the "troubles" per se.

To top it all off, Gerry Adams was rubbish on one of the leaders the debates on RTE the week before voting.

jiggajt

True but they are a relatively young party (despite being the oldest party in ireland) when it comes to modern southern politics and they're policies in the last election did show that.

In that debate Mc Dowell was the main instigator of the arguement with adams and he didnt exactly do well out of it.

Purry Cat

jiggajt wrote: »

Why is everyone dismissing sinn fein right off the bat. I grew up in a border town and i sometimes find the southern attitude to sinn fein baffling. We all grew up watching the news reports during the troubles and are aware of some of the attrocities that were carried out by both sides but that needs to be viewed in the context of history.
You dont hear people harping on about the irish people that fianna fail (anti treaty sinn fein at the time) killed during the civil war which they started or how collins' cumman na ngael (fianna gael) government killed irish people. And thats just the civil war time. There are few parties in ireland that dont have blood on their hands in some form but that needs to be left in the history books. Parties should be judged on their abilities and not dismissed outright based on actions carried out in difficult times.


You find the southern attitude to Sinn Fein "baffling"?

You think that the IRA atrocities need to be viewed "in context"?

You'd have us believe that the phrase "difficult times" describes not the current economic climate but a period in which over 3,000 people died, the majority of whom didn't wear uniforms of one kind or another? (I'm sure you're aware that the IRA were responsible for the deaths of many more Catholics than the British Army.) And that the IRA didn't do more than their bit to contribute to these "difficult times" with their "actions" - a neat euphemism for shooting and blowing up people?

You're puzzled that the southern public are less than enamoured of the political wing of a terrorist movement that was dedicated to the overthrow of this state and that, in the pursuit of these ends, carried out numerous robberies and murdered upwards of 20 gardai?

And while you're at it, would you care to fill us in on the identity and quantity of innocent Irish civilians were killed by FF and FG after the civil war?

Let's be having you, please.

jiggajt

Ok. First of all i think you'll find i didnt use the phrase "diificult times" but i did use words such as "attrocities." Hopefully this will give you an idea of what i think of what happened in the past in the North. What i am attempting to show is that most political parties that were around in the foundation of a working democracy not just in this country but in countries like britain and america arent innocent of involovement in attrocities of they're own.

Fair enough sinn feins involvement is alot more recent but in the future it will probably be consigned to the same context in history as other struggles for democratic rights for irish people. Put yourself in the position of a anti violence, pro treatyite man/woman in ireland in 1932. Would you welcome the sight of Dev becoming taoiseach after knowing what the anti-treaty sinn fein (fianna fail) had done? Obviously you wouldnt. However as they had been democratically elected history moved on, Dev stayed in and out of government for the next 20 years and became a hero to some. This man did command a brigade in the 1916 rising and a large force in the civil war which im sure carried out attrocities similar to those in the north. I remember my grandfather voicing his disgust at dev being taoiseach over 30 years after leaving government.


When i said the following "And thats just the civil war time." i was more referring to times previous to the civil war. Sorry if that came accross as me inferring that the democratically elected goverments post 1922 were responsible for attrocities. That is unless you consider brian cowen dress sense to be an attrocity Sorry i shouldnt joke like that.


Sorry, just noticed that i did use the expression "difficult times." The meaning i intended however was nothing other than what the statement actually means.

Rigor Mortis

I honestly think a lot of SF supporters (and particularly the ones that came down from the north) miss out on the fact that for most southern people would not rank NI as being anywhere near the top of their list of priorities.

That just leaves SF as a socialist party which has been pretty uncertain on core policies. I have no doubt that they will get their act together in the south, but its a long way from happening.

Purry Cat

jiggajt wrote: »

Ok. First of all i think you'll find i didnt use the phrase "diificult times" but i did use words such as "attrocities." Hopefully this will give you an idea of what i think of what happened in the past in the North. What i am attempting to show is that most political parties that were around in the foundation of a working democracy not just in this country but in countries like britain and america arent innocent of involovement in attrocities of they're own.

Fair enough sinn feins involvement is alot more recent but in the future it will probably be consigned to the same context in history as other struggles for democratic rights for irish people. Put yourself in the position of a anti violence, pro treatyite man/woman in ireland in 1932. Would you welcome the sight of Dev becoming taoiseach after knowing what the anti-treaty sinn fein (fianna fail) had done? Obviously you wouldnt. However as they had been democratically elected history moved on, Dev stayed in and out of government for the next 20 years and became a hero to some. This man did command a brigade in the 1916 rising and a large force in the civil war which im sure carried out attrocities similar to those in the north. I remember my grandfather voicing his disgust at dev being taoiseach over 30 years after leaving government.


When i said the following "And thats just the civil war time." i was more referring to times previous to the civil war. Sorry if that came accross as me inferring that the democratically elected goverments post 1922 were responsible for attrocities. That is unless you consider brian cowen dress sense to be an attrocity Sorry i shouldnt joke like that.


Sorry, just noticed that i did use the expression "difficult times." The meaning i intended however was nothing other than what the statement actually means.

Clearly we each have a very different concept of the meaning of the phrase "difficult times". But thanks for taking the trouble to answer me. And yes, you're quite right: as history shows us, memories - some of them anyway - do fade and the rebels of one generation become the statesmen of the next.

Nightwish

mfitzy wrote: »

What do you think of JP Phelan though? Seems young, eager and energetic.

Reckon FG/Lab will hold their majority in the council, if not increase it.

JP Phelan is a senator and even if he was running for the council, he's from Thomastown and wouldnt be on the ballot for KK.

Sully wrote: »

I am curious as to why you dislike them? I don't know any of the KK folk myself. Just curious as to what they have done/not done in Kilkenny that makes you not even consider them

There's a FG dynasty in town, which in my opinion, are just as bad as the FF dynasty. They appear to do an awful lot for their own businesses and try their best to block other business from opening in town. I wouldnt be able to vote for them. Even though there are plenty of others who will vote FF and for the certain FG candidates, enough for them to keep their seats, I'll do my bit to say no.

Plug

FG are always giving FF a good ol' bollicken, so I'll vote for FG this time and hope they do everything they preached for.

Nightwish

Andrew McGuinness will still get in, regardless

DerryRed

Purry Cat wrote: »

jiggajt wrote: »

You'd have us believe that the phrase "difficult times" describes not the current economic climate but a period in which over 3,000 people died, the majority of whom didn't wear uniforms of one kind or another? (I'm sure you're aware that the IRA were responsible for the deaths of many more Catholics than the British Army.)

......

And while you're at it, would you care to fill us in on the identity and quantity of innocent Irish civilians were killed by FF and FG after the civil war?

Purry Cat, just as you called on Jiggajt to give more details on civilians killed by FF and FG after the civil war, could you please also give us more information on your claim that "the IRA were responsible for the deaths of many more Catholics than the British Army". Where did you get your figures from? Also please remember that Troubles in the North involved not just the IRA and the British Army, there were also many Loyalist organisations and the RUC in the picture as well.

Purry Cat

DerryRed wrote: »

Purry Cat wrote: »

Purry Cat, just as you called on Jiggajt to give more details on civilians killed by FF and FG after the civil war, could you please also give us more information on your claim that "the IRA were responsible for the deaths of many more Catholics than the British Army". Where did you get your figures from? Also please remember that Troubles in the North involved not just the IRA and the British Army, there were also many Loyalist organisations and the RUC in the picture as well.

From David McKittrick. And yes, Derry Red, I'm well aware that various Loyalists were responsible for the deaths of many, many Catholics, south of the border as well as north (and with and without the assistance of MI5, MI6, etc etc).

DerryRed

Purry Cat wrote: »

DerryRed wrote: »

From David McKittrick.

Thanks Purry Cat for the reference. Out of interest what figures/proportions does he give?

Purry Cat

Haven't the book to hand, unfortunately, and can't remember off the top of my head.
Am well aware, incidentally, that written sources can be as unreliable as any other! But nobody appears to have taken issue with McKittrick's figures, which was striking.

DerryRed

Purry Cat wrote: »

Haven't the book to hand, unfortunately, and can't remember off the top of my head.
Am well aware, incidentally, that written sources can be as unreliable as any other! But nobody appears to have taken issue with McKittrick's figures, which was striking.

Thanks Purry Cat. I agree that any written source can be unreliable. For me I would hope that people make their decisions based on Sinn Fein's policies and not on their history. I've just finished reading Nelson Mandela's autobiography and during the mid 20th century there were lots of things which he and the ANC were responsible for, that can be compared to what the IRA have done in the recent past. Bottom line, both sides were guilty, and perhaps the hurt is just too recent/fresh for people to move on. In 10/20/30 years who knows where we might be.

Purry Cat

DerryRed wrote: »

Thanks Purry Cat. I agree that any written source can be unreliable. For me I would hope that people make their decisions based on Sinn Fein's policies and not on their history. I've just finished reading Nelson Mandela's autobiography and during the mid 20th century there were lots of things which he and the ANC were responsible for, that can be compared to what the IRA have done in the recent past. Bottom line, both sides were guilty, and perhaps the hurt is just too recent/fresh for people to move on. In 10/20/30 years who knows where we might be.

Can't disagree with any of that!

Am conscious that we've gone well off-topic here. But from a quick look on the web (to repeat, not necessarily reliable!), of the 3,500 or so deaths in the conflict the breakdown for responsibility is as follows:

Republican groups - responsible for 2,055 deaths (approx 60%);
Loyalist groups - responsible for 1,020 deaths (approx 30%);
Security forces - responsible for 368 deaths (approx 10%).

Not altogether surprisingly, over 1,800 of the victims are classed as "civilians". It was ever thus, alas...

jiggajt

We have gone well off topic and that's my fault. Would be interested in hearing from the people who said they wont vote and what they're reasons are?

catbear

i wanted to vote in the last election by the fwit that came around to clean up the register ticked the wrong box when i said i did not want my vote moved. still sore about this.
anyhow i would be very happy for a lot more independent candidates to become involved. i would have no problem with looking at a possible cutback in political reps, i have a feeling that the combined public/private debt will force this in the long run, you need fewer people to chase a smaller pie.

issue based candidates will achieve more once they stay on topic and not get distracted by party issues.

honestly i'm bored with the FF/FG bogus rivalry, two cheaks of the same arse both producing the same ****e with the tax payer covering the clean up.
i didn't hear anyone from either side saying that housing was overpriced in the last ten years. as for civil war politics, there will be a civil war if the taxpayer is called upon to bail out the bank through nationalisation.

FF/FG/Greens backed the emergency finance act which placed the irish state at the mercy of the banks, in every other first world country it's the other way around.

if the banks do go bust we'll be off to the IMF with cap in hand for a national bailout which will make the credit crunch look like a short walk. like argentina there would have to be resrictions on money supply, your savings won't be affected but your access will. in argentina monthly withdrawal limits were applied.

if this does happen i would have no problem with a new republic, the french are on their fifth and the US has amended over time many of its founding principals.

the truth is i'm sick of cute hore politics. within irish politics there are good committed people but their work is undone by me-first attitudes from all sides, the electorate and the politicians.

the coming recession/depression will hopefully focus everyones minds on the common needs of the day and consign the tribalism to where it doesn't do any damage.

jiggajt

You are speaking alot of sense there Catbear. And the comparison with Argentina is a fair one. Are you sure you dont want to run as an independent yourself?

catbear

jiggajt wrote: »

You are speaking alot of sense there Catbear. And the comparison with Argentina is a fair one. Are you sure you dont want to run as an independent yourself?

i was asked to consider running by one of the main parties; my gut reaction was "why catch a falling knife?".
the ones who walked this nation up a mountain of debt have to walk it down again. anyone heading for office in the next two years will be caught in the economic downturn and promising anything material is a fools errand.
Labour are starting to make the right noises, there is also talk a Reform party in the making.

FF/FG are the same party, ask any foreigner working here. i heard one aussie sum it up by asking "so the deal with the parities is "I'm more patriotic than you are?"". at best the general manner of irish politics is uncouth.

Labour are starting to make the right noises, however they are still too close to the unions, i think a divorce from the unions is needed if Labour are going to rob urban votes from FF/FG. being too close to the unions is the same as the Galway tent for FF. the perception of Labour is still one of protected jobs at any cost but why should any one job be protected at the expense of others; this won't wash. the unions would bankrupt this nation in the interests of their members; thats their mandate. i had one union guy tell last year that wages should be linked to house price, thank god he didn't get his way, we'd be down 30%.

i believe an election is not far off. i'd be closer to a reform party that sought transparency and measurable value for money in government. it's not sexy, there would no giveaways, people would have to think and do more for themselves but it should do exactly what it says on the tin. in truth Ireland has become too fat and lazy for radical political thinking so a deep bloody recession will focus everyones attention to what really matters; keeping the wolf from the door.

another thing about public office is the commitment. it's huge, the man hours and dealing with people. i'm more of a strategist/thinker. i'll work with someone i believe in.

in two years time we may have a very different political landscape. banners being raised now may loom above the current stock. i'm for change, i'm for leaving the civil war politics in past and fighting for the civil rights of today. i'd go further than what Labour promised at the week end, i'm for allowing people to go bankrupt and having their credit rating wiped clean seven years after they have discharged the last of their debts.

the one who made no mistakes made nothing at all.

ChristIsMurph

What does everyone think of the current candidates? I know I am one myself but just wondering how everyone feels about it all! I'll list out the confirmed or obvious ones so far:

FF: Andrew McGuinness, Joe Reidy, John Coonan, possibly Pat Fitzpatrick, and one more

FG: Paul Cuddihy, Darren Murphy, David Fitzgerald, Betty Manning and Martin Brett

Lab: Noel Frawley, Sean O'Hargain, Marie Fitzpatrick and Sean Butler

Gre: Malcolm Noonan and maybe a running mate, maybe not.

SF: Bound to run somebody, dunno who yet.

Indos: I've heard rumours but like none are definate yet.

jiggajt

SF are running Kathleen Funchion as far as i know.