For the Attention of Lightning ..!!

vectra

Could I cast your Mind back to this post when you openly called me a clown among other things along the topic on an open forum. To which I took as insult and am surprised you were not repremanded by Mods/Admin.

Please read your comment to me after I suggested that Michael Schumacher did NOT win 7 titles on his own merit

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57386137&postcount=47

Now may I ask you to read these comments by Barrichello

Rubens Barrichello has admitted the Ferrari team gave him clear team orders in his years at Ferrari. The Brazilian was Ferrari's second driver and was even threatened to get fired if he wouldn't move over for team mate Schumacher.
Speaking with Brazilian TV show Fantastico Barrichello said: "At the Austrian Grand Prix (2002) I was told over the radio 'Do you know that Michael is behind you? It is important for the championship'. The intensity of my conversation with the team increased with every lap while there were just a few laps to go and then I was told that they would take a closer look at my contract if I wouldn't move over.
"For me it was pretty clear. Take my foot off the pedal or get fired. When I asked Michael (Schumacher) if he knew what was going on he said he had nothing to do with it. But I have documents at home to prove that he was very well aware of everything that took place."

Taken from >> HERE :rolleyes:

Robbo

I fail to see how this validates your point in any way. It's well accepted that team orders were used at Ferrari.

What is emerging from all this is that you've got a serious personal beef with Lightning and you're looking more foolish the harder you push.

vectra

Robbo wrote: »

I fail to see how this validates your point in any way. It's well accepted that team orders were used at Ferrari.

What is emerging from all this is that you've got a serious personal beef with Lightning and you're looking more foolish the harder you push.

WRONG,

Therer is a HUGE difference between Team Orders and Threats

Robbo

vectra wrote: »

WRONG,

Therer is a HUGE difference between Team Orders and Threats

Entirely correct. They should have offered to buy him an ice cream. At least a 99. If Rubens was any kind of a negotiator, he would have insisted on getting syrup before moving over.

At least in the other thread there was the THREAT of MUCKY PICS of Danica Patrick. FACT.

EvilMonkey

Barrichello wasn't his team mate for all 7 world championships.
Team orders were not baned then
Barrichello knew what he was getting into when he signed for Ferrari

vectra

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Barrichello wasn't his team mate for all 7 world championships.
Team orders were not baned then
Barrichello knew what he was getting into when he signed for Ferrari

I never said anything about he knowing or not knowing what he was getting himself inot.
Nor did I ever deny he should have asked for a 99 with syrup beforehand.
What I did say was the following.

Schumacher did NOT win 7 titles through sheer merit and driving skills.

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

I never said anything about he knowing or not knowing what he was getting himself inot.
Nor did I ever deny he should have asked for a 99 with syrup beforehand.
What I did say was the following.

Schumacher did NOT win 7 titles through sheer merit and driving skills.

Nobody has ever achieved anything through sheer merit and skill.

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

Nobody has ever achieved anything through sheer merit and skill.

Really??
so tell me
Who moved out of the way for Valentino Rossi ??

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Really??
so tell me
Who moved out of the way for Valentino Rossi ??

And he had no luck getting there in the first place? No helping hand at any point? No friends to get him a bike in his earlier years? No connections? No-one took a liking to him and was biaded towards him?
I don't like Schumacher but like him or not, he got his place as No.1 in Ferrari and Formula 1 for that matter, and all the advantages that went with it.

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

And he had no luck getting there in the first place? No helping hand at any point? No friends to get him a bike in his earlier years? No connections? No-one took a liking to him and was biaded towards him?
I don't like Schumacher but like him or not, he got his place as No.1 in Ferrari and Formula 1 for that matter, and all the advantages that went with it.

Hold on a second
what has "Friends getting him a bike in the first place"
Or
"Connections"

got to do with team mates being Threatened to leave someone win or your fired ??

Nobody helped Rossi achieve what he has only himself and his driving SKILLS

I suppose drivers let Fangio through as well did they?
Colin McRae?
Roger Clarke ??

Did they all get Team order Help as well??

I dont think so :rolleyes:

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Hold on a second
what has "Friends getting him a bike in the first place"
Or
"Connections"

got to do with team mates being Threatened to leave someone win or your fired ??

Nobody helped Rossi achieve what he has only himself and his driving SKILLS

I suppose drivers let Fangio through as well did they?
Colin McRae?
Roger Clarke ??

Did they all get Team order Help as well??

I dont think so :rolleyes:

Skill and effort will only get one so far without luck.

Were you at many races Fangio took part in? You can bet your arse he would've been let through by someone who needed to keep himself in a racing seat if it came down to it.

A lot of overtaking involved in Rallying :rolleyes:

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

Skill and effort will only get one so far without luck.

And you know this from experience?

vectra

Ficus wrote: »

vectra, its with comments like that that you are getting hostile responces.
and its with silly comments like saying schumacher didnt win on merit and driving talent that you get blasted out of it by people.

Sure ferrari didnt exactley put it nicely to rubens with a "look at your contract comment" but rubens knew what he was getting into when he replaced irvine, and well its ferraris car, they were his employers and paying his high 7 figure wage.

Team orders have always been a part of racing, and thats the way it is. what about spa in 1995, i guess that was the local butcher driving in the wet around one of the most dangerous tracks in the world with dry tyres while holding off damon hill???

Or what about spain 1994 when he had one gear, 5th, and still finished 2nd, i guess that was the local fish monger driving.
Please, dont be silly vectra.

You mention team orders in rallying, yes its happens and goes on, so dont be fooled. Even mcrae acknowledged this before his world championship.

Getting back to my original comment
Schumacher did NOT win all 7 titles on his own merit which most seem to agree here
I am merely pointing out that there is no need for Lightning to come along with his "Mightier than thou" attitude.

Robbo

vectra wrote: »

I am merely pointing out that there is no need for Lightning to come along with his "Mightier than thou" attitude.

And yet you start an entire thread aimed at baiting and hectoring him?

vectra

Robbo wrote: »

And yet you start an entire thread aimed at baiting and hectoring him?

Like i said
I was merely pointing it out to him

oh
Not to you

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Like i said
I was merely pointing it out to him

oh
Not to you

You couldn't have PMed for that?

ODD-JOB

Ill have to side with vectra on this one.
Sorry to all the schumi fans but when you compare his statistical achievements against the other all time greats , ... then one must surely acknowledge that he had an easier time of it compared to his rivals, who wouldnt have received the same level of dedicated support.

Ferrari built the team/car solely around M Schu's driving style. No doubt he was super-talented , one cannot debate that. But even the FIA biasedly supported Ferrari even amongst the most controvesial of incidents.

ODD-JOB

amacachi wrote: »

You couldn't have PMed for that?

Well if he was openly slated on the public board here , then he should also have the right to defend himself on the open board !!

vectra

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Ill have to side with vectra on this one.
Sorry to all the schumi fans but when you compare his statistical achievements against the other all time greats , ... then one must surely acknowledge that he had an easier time of it compared to his rivals, who wouldnt have received the same level of dedicated support.

Ferrari built the team/car solely around M Schu's driving style. No doubt he was super-talented , one cannot debate that. But even the FIA biasedly supported Ferrari even amongst the most controvesial of incidents.

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Well if he was openly slated on the public board here , then he should also have the right to defend himself on the open board !!

After all this time i find there is someone that thinks as I do :eek:

Thanks Odd-Job.;)

EvilMonkey

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Ill have to side with vectra on this one.
Sorry to all the schumi fans but when you compare his statistical achievements against the other all time greats , ... then one must surely acknowledge that he had an easier time of it compared to his rivals, who wouldnt have received the same level of dedicated support.

Ferrari built the team/car solely around M Schu's driving style. No doubt he was super-talented , one cannot debate that. But even the FIA biasedly supported Ferrari even amongst the most controvesial of incidents.

McLaren built their car around hakanen at the time, Renault built their car around Alonso and are again, McLaren are now building their car around Lewis It makes sense to build a car that suits the driving style of your best driver.

Almost every rule change the FIA made when Schumacher was dominating was aimed at stopping his domination and evening up the field, They even changed the points system ffs.

pburns

The OP needs to take a chill pill. He must lead a very insignificent life to get THIS upset about an online slight and a difference of opinion.

No, not all of Schumi's wins and 7 WDCs were won completely 100% on merit but then who achieves that kind of success with a little help from his friends;). Fact is MS earned the right to be no1 driver in the best team, to have the car built around him etc.

I do think that Schumi got an easy ride because the drivers in other competitive cars during this period were not always top drawer - Hill, Villeneuve, DC, not to mention Irv and Rubens. I think there are far more top level drivers around at the moment - Alonso, Hamilton and probably Kubica and Vettel also. The pre-08 Kimi as well. Winning 7 WDCs against that lot would be a harder task IMO...

thegoth

Vectra,

Schmuacher had the Ferrari team and car built around him because he was the best driver at the time. He was not the best driver in F1 at the time because the Ferrari team and car were built around him.

Regarding team orders, if Massa had won this years championship, would you be complaining that Kimi was ordered to let Massa through in one on the final races ? Likewise, Hekki didnt exactly made any trouble for Lewis when he needed to pass him. Formula 1 is a team sport. The teams employ the drivers, not the other way around. I have no problem with team orders at all.

Now, that Lewis will likely have the McLaren team and the car will be built around him for at least the next 5 years or so, are you going to say that any world championship he wins is as a result of this ? Dont get me wrong, I'm not Lewis's biggest fan, but he is a super driver.

I think that you may be guilty of letting your personal dislike for Schmuacher blind you to his brilliance

Kersh

Im not at all that informed about bike racing, but I do believe Edwards let Rossi through a few times.

In Rallying, some drivers sandbag at various stages to let their slower team mates beat them that day... so they go out ahead of them the next day and sweep the stage for them on gravelly stages.


As for Fangio, you are right, he wouldnt ever have had team orders help him win a title.... he was way better than that... he took his team mates fkin car when his own broke down.... so he was way ahead of Schumi and the likes with having 1st preference.

Its not often a driver wins F1 titles all on his own... Kov helped Lewis, Massa helped Kimi last year, Kimi helped Massa this year (and he still didnt win the title), DC helped Hakkinen... I could go on.

Schumi was just a tad smarter than all of them by making sure.... he believed in himself.. and fair play to him.

vectra

Kersh wrote: »

As for Fangio, you are right, he wouldnt ever have had team orders help him win a title.... he was way better than that... he took his team mates fkin car when his own broke down.... so he was way ahead of Schumi and the likes with having 1st preference.

That is what I call class and determination

zeris

vectra wrote: »

I suppose drivers let Fangio through as well did they

Peter Collins.

zeris

Kersh wrote: »

As for Fangio, you are right, he wouldnt ever have had team orders help him win a title.... he was way better than that... he took his team mates fkin car when his own broke down

The current accepted history to this is that Collins gave up his car voluntarily after the other Ferrari driver (Musso?) wouldn't. Collins did it in the belief that he would win a drivers title in time. But instead was killed racing before he did.

FrostyJack

Schumacher did NOT win all 7 titles on his own merit which most seem to agree here

No I'd say most would say he didn't win every race without help. BTW how many points did he win the championship that year? Those points would have lost him the title? Really?

Hill's win at Spa in the Jordan, no team orders there I suppose....

vectra

FrostyJack wrote: »

Hill's win at Spa in the Jordan, no team orders there I suppose....

If my memory serves me correctly the only team order on that day was that Hill wins because he was leading Ralf all through the race and also qualified ahead of Ralf

zeris

vectra wrote: »

If my memory serves me correctly the only team order on that day was that Hill wins because he was leading Ralf all through the race and also qualified ahead of Ralf

Quick refresh of your memory. Funny radio from Sam Michael and Ralf starts around 03:50. He was told explicitly to hold station and not overtake Damon despite at the time being quicker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZxkCvH4BkI

ODD-JOB

Pretty much all of the team order examples referred to , are as a direct result of race position at that time.

Now Schumi's team mates have been under strict instruction before they even turn the wheel of the 1st race of the season !!!! which is totally different to examples like hill + Ralf's situation !

---

EVILMONKEY Wrote : "McLaren built their car around hakanen at the time, Renault built their car around Alonso and are again, McLaren are now building their car around Lewis It makes sense to build a car that suits the driving style of your best driver.

Almost every rule change the FIA made when Schumacher was dominating was aimed at stopping his domination and evening up the field, They even changed the points system ffs."

---

Firstly , we're not comparing Schumi to Hakkenin or Alonso , The Mc laren's started out on even footing and Coultard moved for Hakkenin as a drivers agreement and not a team instruction.... they regularly battled.

Secondly , The FIA totally favoured Ferrari due to the fact that some 85-90% of fans follow the Ferrari team.
It's good for marketing.... maybe not good for all the purist race fans , but they dont bring in the money/veiwing figures of the casual bi-weekly race fan.

FIA have been slated for years over this !! Im surprised you havent heard

EvilMonkey

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Secondly , The FIA totally favoured Ferrari due to the fact that some 85-90% of fans follow the Ferrari team.
It's good for marketing.... maybe not good for all the purist race fans , but they dont bring in the money/veiwing figures of the casual bi-weekly race fan.

FIA have been slated for years over this !! Im surprised you havent heard

I have most of it is complete nonsense.
I was under the impression the FIA wanted a competitive series not the Schumacher/Ferrari show much better for TV/viewing figures casual race fans and attracting new fans.(more money!)

FrostyJack

FIA have been slated for years over this !! Im surprised you havent heard

Yeah Schumacher actually shot someone on live tv and the FIA let him away....No wait he was called on almost everything? How many points directly/indirectly did the FIA take off him in 94? Villenuve incident, got away with that? Alonso..qualifying... Monaco, didn't lose title there? Point system change robbing him, Kimi and Massa for years? Talk about blinkers.......


Every Steward/FIA decision has been debated to death on this forum, I say at the very least 60% of the people here have agreed with all of them (except the Bourdais incident), the reason being, they were right, not a conspiracy.

Biro

People seem to forget here that Ferrari didn't build the car around Michael, Michael and Ross changed Ferrari from a shambles of a team with no WC since 1979 to simply the best team in the grid. If you don't agree with that then you are a fool who doesn't know enough about F1.
Also Michael missed out on a certain title when he broke his leg. Irvine was practically handed it on a plate and couldn't do it. Granted he wasn't given a whole lot of team support, but if he'd have won the race he would have got it.
Like him or hate him, MS is up with the best of all time, Fangio included.

IanCurtis

Anyone with half a brain knows Senna was a better driver than Schumacher.

amacachi

IanCurtis wrote: »

Anyone with half a brain knows Senna was a better driver than Schumacher.

How do ya figure that one out?

De Hipster

Schumacher's Pre-F1 Career: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Schumacher

In Germany the regulations require the driver to be at least 14 years old in order to obtain a kart license. To get around this, Schumacher obtained a license in Luxembourg in 1981, at the age of 12.

In 1983 he obtained his German license and the year after he won the German Junior Kart Championship (1984) . From 1984, Schumacher won numerous German and European kart championships. He joined Eurokart dealer Adolf Neubert in 1985. By 1987 he was the German and European kart champion, at which point he withdrew from school and began working as a mechanic. In 1988 Schumacher made his first step into single-seat car racing by racing in the German Formula Ford and Formula König series, winning the latter.

In 1989 Michael signed with Willi Weber's WTS Formula 3 team. For the next two years, funded by Weber, he competed in the German Formula 3 series, winning the title in 1990. Towards the end of 1990, along with his Formula 3 rivals Heinz-Harald Frentzen and Karl Wendlinger, he joined the Mercedes junior racing programme in the World Sports-Prototype Championship. This was an unusual move for a young driver: most of Schumacher's contemporaries would instead compete in Formula 3000 on their way to Formula One. However, Weber advised Schumacher that exposure to professional press conferences and driving powerful cars in long distance races would help his career. He gained victory at the season finale at the Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez in a Sauber-Mercedes C11 and finished fifth in the drivers' championship. He continued with the team in the 1991 World Sportscar Championship season, winning again at the final race of the season at Autopolis in Japan with a Sauber-Mercedes-Benz C291, leading to a ninth place finish in the drivers championship. In 1991 he competed in one race in the Japanese Formula 3000 Championship, finishing second.

All pre-f1 days...obviously no talent whatsoever visible there, however did he wriggle his way into that elite sport to steal all those championships?!

Biro

amacachi wrote: »

How do ya figure that one out?

Probably with his halved brain!

thegoth

"All pre-f1 days...obviously no talent whatsoever visible there, however did he wriggle his way into that elite sport to steal all those championships?!"

Your wrong, wrong. Just wrong.

Ross Brawn, who knows a thing or two about motorsport was working in an opposing team to Schmucaher in touring cars at the time. He said that they always sh*t a brick when it was Schmuachers turn to drive the car as he was over a second faster than his teammate.

You will never be able to compare Schmucaher to Senna properly. The only only thing you can do is look at their performances in the equipment they had. I think Schmuacher did very, very well in his underperforming Jordan and Benetton compared with Senna in the McLaren and Williams. Noone will ever know who was the best.

I remember Rubens was asked this a few years ago and he said that he thought that Senna was a little faster but that Schmucaher applied himself better during a race. I dont know.

Look at it this way. Its still not possible to compare Alonso to Schmuacher, so how can you do it for Senna ? Unless drivers are teammates for a seaon for perferrable two, then this is a pointless excerise with drivers that are closly matched.

Lets not get away from the debate here, which is team orders. Bottom line is that Schmucaher would have won all his world titles without team orders. They just helped him do it quicker

You won't find me complaing here is Lewis wins next years championship with Hekkis help or if Kubica wins with Heidfields.

De Hipster

thegoth wrote: »

"All pre-f1 days...obviously no talent whatsoever visible there, however did he wriggle his way into that elite sport to steal all those championships?!"

Your wrong, wrong. Just wrong.

Sorry, I didn't stress the sarcasm effectively. I personally think MS is a master!