[Article]3 preferred over eircom for broadband plan

Mlo

For some strange reason I decided to listen to the radio instead of my ipod on the way to work this morning and heard this on the morning news.

Frankly I'm stunned. Eircom may be bad (and they are; back when I lived in Dublin I switched to another provider because of this; now that I've moved to Wexford I can't even get a phone line from them (but i do live in hope))

But Three are unbelievably awful. I've had their alleged broadband for nearly a year now, and it and they are just terrible.

Notwithstanding the limits of 3G technology (which they surely aren't proposing to roll out as the technical solution for the NBS; can they?) their network here is the worst of those out there and there customer service is just abysmal (but still better than Eircom's as I've recently found out)

It strikes me that someone should be getting the press to look at the megathread and report on the contract result in the light of it.

Is there any possability btw that Threes proposal doesn't depend on HSPDA for provision of services??

As for Eamon Ryan, he clearly doesn't have any intention of bringing broadband to rural ireland if this horrible bandaid is his solution.

thebman

This is just done for costs and so the government can say they delivered the NBS when election time rolls around which is a crap reason to use this technology.

godskitchen

Can anyone confirm if they are talking about using HSDPA? If so it does not meet the original criteria.....

PogMoThoin

godskitchen wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if they are talking about using HSDPA? If so it does not meet the original criteria.....

What else can they use?

watty

I can't see how they can beat eircom on Price and Fail on everything else unless it is HSDPA.

Up to 8% of NBS customers are allowed to have 2 way Satellite. HSDPA can be better or worse than VSAT.

Walkman

godskitchen wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if they are talking about using HSDPA? If so it does not meet the original criteria.....

Do they not already have a hsdpa network

Our man in Havana

A very poor one.

foggy_lad

bealtine wrote: »

And there you have it..."doesn't work". I wonder will they enforce minimum requirements and what penalties will follow for non performance?

The DCENR says :
"The final product that consumers will receive from the NBS will be an always on service of at least 1Mbit/s down and 128kbits/s up. The minimum download capacity per connection will be 10 gigabits per month and the service must support Virtual Private Networks (VPN) for businesses and VoIP applications and devices for home business purposes. Latency must be sufficient in order to allow standard applications such as VoIP and online gaming to be run"

Will this be guaranteed for every single consumer that tries to connect?

I wonder if 3 can possibly deliver anything remotely like this based on the current capabilities of HSDPA, only time will tell.

it will be interesting to hear how three are going to basically guarantee 1mbps download speeds when they were hard pressed to give me 10kbps when i had their service. and i assume this will have to be similar to my sisters 1mbps perlico connection where she gets at least 850kbps download speed at the busiest time?

also my email to minister ryan went like this

Dear minister ryan,
it is a disgrace that this company has been awarded such an important contract and i hope that when they fail to provide even a fraction of their promised service all those involved in handing them so much public money will do the honorable thing and resign from the positions they hold!

also i and many others have serious concerns about three's ability to provide customer service from their call centres in India, please also be aware that i have had the three broadband product in the past in the centre of Carlow town and at peak times had speeds less than dial-up(5kbps), not just on and off but all peak times as in every evening after 6pm speeds were desperate! and i only got out of the contract with them after threatening them with legal action and after the intervention of ComReg.

so to sum up three as a company are more like those awful here today gone tomorrow "cowboy builders" and their customer care is a nightmare to understand and deal with, and the people that gave them this contract are obviously ill-informed and blind to the reality of broadband in Ireland today!

Regards

mike76

anyone know whether the bids will be available under FOI and if so when?

watty

Walkman wrote: »

Do they not already have a hsdpa network

A small one. They Roam to Vodaphone. They have been planning to increase it. They need about x6 mast sites anyway.

KK Dub

godskitchen wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if they are talking about using HSDPA? If so it does not meet the original criteria.....

From what I understand they plan to deploy HSPA.
Apparently eircom were planning to deliver the service via Meteor's 3G network and not by FWA or DSL. Given that Meteor don't as yet have a commercial 3G network this may not have helped.

godskitchen

There will be no FOI, its public money and as a matter of course they have to declare where it is going, so yes the bids will be available.......if they are not already.

The DCENR says :
"The final product that consumers will receive from the NBS will be an always on service of at least 1Mbit/s down and 128kbits/s up. The minimum download capacity per connection will be 10 gigabits per month and the service must support Virtual Private Networks (VPN) for businesses and VoIP applications and devices for home business purposes. Latency must be sufficient in order to allow standard applications such as VoIP and online gaming to be run"

I am quoting the above from another user, so I do not know how true it is, can any one confirm if this was the original call?

If it is/was, I really fail to see how HSDPA can cope with the requirements of this.

This is why I asked if they planned to use HSDPA......I don't see how it can be done, correct me if I am wrong.

As far as I can see, we the tax payer will be helping a shoddy company (Three) expand their network for free.......or will the network be exclusive for the poor people that cant get BB by another source? Either way I am not going to pay any more tax if its going to Three.....................mass civil disobedience any one?:D:D:D:D

Walkman

watty wrote: »

A small one. They Roam to Vodaphone. They have been planning to increase it. They need about x6 mast sites anyway.

87% is a small one? Data does not roam on vodafone btw

Bob the Builder

From someone who sells three modems, it's not three's fault. it's never their fault for anything. the question is; is it because your computer doesn't work? Coz it's not our fault?

...even though, for example, last saturday, i got 4 people bringing in their laptops/modems to fix because it suddenly stopped working.

Considering I work one day a week, and this happens at least once every month, i don't see how everyone in my local town would have a broken laptop.

their customer care is located in india, and if anything goes wrong, they will be viewing a mast from a screen that they have in front of them. Three recently put a mast in achill, and yet when i rang customer care, they denied it existed because it wasn't on their map.

from my point of view(as a seller), the only service available to me, based in ireland, is three dealer support (which always refer you to tech support in india anyway).

This proves that democracy doesn't work, neither does eircom, and now Three are getting paid to implement a below par service.

If i had a choice between dial-up and three, i'd be tempted to keep dial-up. I don't know who's cheaper, or what it's costing anyone, but if you're getting HSDPA as your national system, then you are setting low standards.

To put it in context, it's like trying to supply domestic electricity through telephone lines. Theoretically, it will work, but in practise, it will fry the telephone cable.

watty

Walkman wrote: »

87% is a small one? Data does not roam on vodafone btw

Is 87% Population Coverage? or Geographic? including Vodaphone Masts?

Sponge Bob claims they have 100 Mast sites in use. I think O2 has nearer 600 and relies on GSM/GPRS/EDGE in some rural areas. You need more masts for same coverage of 3G (higher frequency) than GSM. I've heard 300 sites mentioned as a reasonable initial coverage in Ireland for the better GSM frequencies.

thebman

Walkman wrote: »

87% is a small one? Data does not roam on vodafone btw

87% is a optimistic evaluation. My parents were about 10 miles inside 3's coverage area when they first launched their Mobile Broadband and were getting one bar signal near the window, unusable if the modem wasn't near the window.

That is what 3 refer to as "coverage". It is their own quaint little definition of the word.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1125/breaking77.htm

Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan and 3 executives are expected to sign the six-year deal next month when further details will be announced.

Not signed yet so still time to complain and try to prevent this joke!!

If you aren't as p*ssed as I am about this yet, please read this from the departments website. I think it will get you there if you know anything about this:
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/3+-+a+Hutchison+Whampoa+company+-+appointed+Preferred+Tenderer+for+the+National+Broadband+Scheme.htm

3 - a Hutchison Whampoa company - appointed Preferred Tenderer for the National Broadband Scheme

Dublin, 25 November, 2008

Communications Minister, Eamon Ryan today announced that “3”, a Hutchison Whampoa company, has been selected as the Preferred Tenderer for the National Broadband Scheme. This follows the conclusion of a competitive tendering process.


The National Broadband Scheme will deliver broadband to those areas of the country currently unserved. Following 3’s appointment as Preferred Tenderer today, work will be finalised on the contract in the coming weeks, with a final announcement expected upon completion of the contract matters next month.


Commenting on the appointment, Minister Ryan said: “I am delighted to announce that I have appointed 3 as the Preferred Tenderer for the National Broadband Scheme (NBS). It is imperative that we have universal broadband coverage in Ireland, for foreign investment, for competitiveness and for our own businesses and householders.


Broadband availability will be central to our economic recovery.”


ENDS

Sam Vimes

Bob the Builder wrote: »

From someone who sells three modems, it's not three's fault. it's never their fault for anything. the question is; is it because your computer doesn't work? Coz it's not our fault?

...even though, for example, last saturday, i got 4 people bringing in their laptops/modems to fix because it suddenly stopped working.

Considering I work one day a week, and this happens at least once every month, i don't see how everyone in my local town would have a broken laptop.

oh but they can. and when i have a problem with my phone service and everyone i know on 3 is having the same problem and if i put my sim in any of my 4 handsets i still have the problem, obviously the solution to this problem is to log my 3 handset in for repair (but not any of my other phones that are experiencing the same problem) and it's perfectly acceptable to refuse to do any other tests until i log my handset in and wait a week

Sam Vimes

watty wrote: »

Is 87% Population Coverage? or Geographic? including Vodaphone Masts?

Sponge Bob claims they have 100 Mast sites in use. I think O2 has nearer 600 and relies on GSM/GPRS/EDGE in some rural areas. You need more masts for same coverage of 3G (higher frequency) than GSM. I've heard 300 sites mentioned as a reasonable initial coverage in Ireland for the better GSM frequencies.

it's population coverage. they claimed to have 85% when they launched in 2005 so it looks like they're not doing a whole lot of expanding.

Walkman

watty wrote: »

Is 87% Population Coverage? or Geographic? including Vodaphone Masts?

Sponge Bob claims they have 100 Mast sites in use. I think O2 has nearer 600 and relies on GSM/GPRS/EDGE in some rural areas. You need more masts for same coverage of 3G (higher frequency) than GSM. I've heard 300 sites mentioned as a reasonable initial coverage in Ireland for the better GSM frequencies.

officially they currently have 787 of their own 3g live masts nationwide. This gives them their 87% 3g coverage while vodafone covers the rest giving them 99.7% coverage in total

godskitchen

Can anyone answer my questions above?

Also what is are their customer numbers now? Are they still stuck on 3%......how ironic!

Walkman

Sam Vimes wrote: »

it's population coverage. they claimed to have 85% when they launched in 2005 so it looks like they're not doing a whole lot of expanding.

No they claimed 60% 3g coverage at time of launch and still had the roaming agreement with vodafone.

Walkman

godskitchen wrote: »

Can anyone answer my questions above?

Also what is are their customer numbers now? Are they still stuck on 3%......how ironic!

Their customer base is now 318,000 with 106,000 broadband users

digiman

watty wrote: »

Is 87% Population Coverage? or Geographic? including Vodaphone Masts?

Sponge Bob claims they have 100 Mast sites in use. I think O2 has nearer 600 and relies on GSM/GPRS/EDGE in some rural areas. You need more masts for same coverage of 3G (higher frequency) than GSM. I've heard 300 sites mentioned as a reasonable initial coverage in Ireland for the better GSM frequencies.

I've no idea where you go your figures but you are way off. 3 have over 700 sites in Ireland all of which are HSPDA. O2 have around 2k sites, I'm not sure how many of them are 3G though. Vodafone have a very similar amount of sites to O2.

thebman

We now have several figures and nobody has backed up anything. Can a mod clean up that mess.

Its clear nobody knows.

The out and about coverage doesn't really count since it can't be used properly indoors at this distance.

This is their coverage map from their website. The bright blue is the real coverage unless you want to stand outside and freeze your nuts off to use your it.



THe 85% includes the out and about as coverage when it isn't proper coverage. It should be noted that when they first launched they just had coverage and everything was marked the same as if there was no difference (another reason their scum). This is how they really arrived at the imaginary number of 85% coverage.

Sam Vimes

Walkman wrote: »

No they claimed 60% 3g coverage at time of launch and still had the roaming agreement with vodafone.

they told me 85% when i went to their training day just before they launched and it said 85% on their website for the first two years.....

edit:
but these links:
http://www.digitalmediaasia.com/default.asp?ArticleID=22177
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5243/is_200702/ai_n19692159

are suggesting they reached it in 2007. possibly they just said it was 85% on their website. wouldn't surprise me

watty

digiman wrote: »

I've no idea where you go your figures but you are way off. 3 have over 700 sites in Ireland all of which are HSPDA. O2 have around 2k sites, I'm not sure how many of them are 3G though. Vodafone have a very similar amount of sites to O2.

I said the figures were posted here and over here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=60 by Sponge Bob. I don't claim any special wisdom or knowledge on this.

The 2K would include GSM.

3 only have 3G/HSDPA. Does the 700 include: micro / pico cells, vodaphone sites they use or sites about to be done/just recently done?

foggy_lad

Walkman wrote: »

Their customer base is now 318,000 with 106,000 broadband users

does this broadband figure include customers using mobile broadband from their handsets?

also i have a three mast in my back garden(200meters away) but still got such rubbbish service for 8 months they cancelled my contract after a long battle after giving me three months free service, and even refunded the modem cost!

MunsterCycling

foggy_lad wrote: »

does this broadband figure include customers using mobile broadband from their handsets?

also i have a three mast in my back garden(200meters away) but still got such rubbbish service for 8 months they cancelled my contract after a long battle after giving me three months free service, and even refunded the modem cost!

Watty will know more but I'd say you could have been too close for that mast to work for you?

MC

Walkman

watty wrote: »

I said the figures were posted here and over here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=60 by Sponge Bob. I don't claim any special wisdom or knowledge on this.

The 2K would include GSM.

3 only have 3G/HSDPA. Does the 700 include: micro / pico cells, vodaphone sites they use or sites about to be done/just recently done?

3 have 787 sites live (none of which are micro sites).

Magnet: Rory

Is there any plans to do something about this? How much is the contract costing?

thebman

Rorser wrote: »

Is there any plans to do something about this? How much is the contract costing?

Yeah everyone willing to should email their local td and Eamon Ryan expressing how unsatisified this result is.

Local papers too if you can. If enough people do this, it will start getting noticed that this decision was crap.

Slutmonkey57b

cc'd to Newstalk lunchtime and Last Word, assuming they care:
(mods censor as they think appropriate, I have attempted to avoid all personal abuse and foul language).

Dear Minister,

I see that the announcement has been made that 3 Ireland (Hutchinson Whampoa) have been awarded the tender for the National Broadband Scheme.

As a taxpayer who has watched literally millions of euro wasted (either in form of direct payments for unlit fibre rings, or by giving incumbent operators licence to fleece customers and competitors at whatever rates they see fit) through what can only be described as total ineptitude by a series of Ministers and ComReg from the early 1990's onward, who are supposedly acting on my behalf, and in my interests, I should not be surprised that the award for yet another "saviour" scheme has gone to the most unreliable, inept, technologically backward, monetarily wasteful option available.

While the formulation of the scheme was, as we have come to expect, deeply flawed, the decision to award the tender to a company that does not possess equipment technically capable of fulfilling it, frankly beggars belief. Or it would do if we weren't so used to this quality of decision making in the Communications Department.

As usual, I shall refer you to the considered experts on the situation, who have been proven time and time again that they are better informed, more intelligent, more reasonable, more logical than the appointed officials of the major companies, government, or ComReg, and who have provided the true leadership and reason to the Irish public; the members of Ireland Offline:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58031030&postcount=4

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58035586&postcount=26

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055115306
(surely you've read this last one.)

I think that in three (irony) simple posts you can see clearly why a) 3G mobile broadband is the wrong choice, b) 3 Ireland is the wrong company to run it. Unless, of course, the decision making process takes no account of either technical matters or consumer affairs, in which case I apologise for bringing it to your attention.

With this decision, you have clearly, and forthrightly taken your place among the many former Minsiters of Communcation who don't understand the problems, don't understand the solutions, don't listen to the people they are supposed to represent, don't possess the political will to do anything about it, and are quite happy to throw as much bad money after the bad money they have already spent as they can possibly get their hands on.

On a positive note, you also have the legacy of handing free money to certain electronics conglomerates by forcing us all to by particular types of light bulbs, and handing out free money to energy surveyors to carry out essentially bogus "audits" of our homes or install wood pellet burners, both of which will sustain us in these testing economic times by lowering our costs of living. I particularly like the wood pellet scheme, as unlike provision of less intelligent systems like natural gas, or lowering the cost of already cheap insulation methods, wood pellets are magically teleported into the furnace, and don't at all rely on large diesel burning trucks to cart the things around, which coupled with the energy used in growing the forests, cutting the trees, transporting the trees, pulping them and pelletising them will stand as a great example of modern 21st century thinking and not at all a throwback to the days when we all dragged bags of coal in off the street.

Congratulations.
I have never voted in any Irish election before, on the basis that any given Irish politician is just as likely to be corrupt/inept/greedy/clueless/desperate to shovel taxpayer's money at a friend of his (delete as appropriate) as the politician he's running against.
Almost single handed, you have changed my mind.

Yous sincerely,
A Taxpayer.

Sponge Bob

I should have checked this properly , I have since.

3 have more than 100 sites , they probably have near enough 800 as asserted by others and that is not counting the Voda 2g sites they roam on for voice and txt .

When I checked the information further it appears they only own or lease 100 sites themselves outright and co -lo on the balance .

I was very wrong . Sorry for all the time wasted discussing that .

This means that they have around 120 customers per mast or 40 per sector , averaged out . This would imply that there is a crude average of 180kbits available per user , sometimes more , often way less.

Their backhaul is dire but they have contracted Nokia to whip it all out and replace it , along with their Node B's in the cells .

The PROBLEM with 3 is that they blatantly lie about their coverage . I have an example here by reference to Vodafone who do NOT lie about their coverage .

3 Have about 10 masts in Donegal while Voda have about 15 . You would never think so from looking at the 3 coverage map all the same

On the 3 map , light blue = some signal and dark blue = usable signal . You would think most of Donegal is well sorted .

On the Voda map , orange = some signal and red = usable signal . As you you can see Voda do NOT claim most of Donegal is well sorted . Far from it . It would take another 30 cells to get anything like good coverage in Donegal .

Once you load these cells with WAY TOO MANY customers, as 3 tend to do , the Dark Blue ares shrinks to a small fraction of its THEORETICAL coverage which is in itself a lie

Then you have to crawl through the dire 3 backhaul to break out on the one IP address ( which is blacklisted) in Dublin .



Voda



Finally, in the interests of balance here is the EIRCOM 3G Coverage Map in Donegal for yiz

drunkmonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

cc'd to Newstalk lunchtime and Last Word, assuming they care:
(mods censor as they think appropriate, I have attempted to avoid all personal abuse and foul language).

I'm guessing they are going to ignore your letter, Nice try though:)

You seem very upset about 3 winning, how many broadband options have you where you live?

I'm waiting for broadband for 20+ years, so far only 3 of the mobile operators have come up with any kind of solution, giving the contract to Eircom would have been unforgivable especially when it looks like the company will be sold again, it would have completly set back any advancement of the dire access problem people have at the moment...

Nobody here knows how the 3 / BT Network will be rolled out as of yet, everyone here is talking like they know exactly what is planned and how bad it's going to be...., I'm giving it until mid december when 3 switch on their 7.2mb before I pass judgement....

@everyone else, leave Mr Ryan alone, don't upset him anymore or he'll probably slap a carbon tax on boards.ie

johnplayerblue

Shocking. This really is the single most shocking descion that any minister has ever made with regard to Ireland's broadband future.

I for one will be mailing Eamon (Two steps forward 4 steps back) Ryan and others.

I like a lot of people have no love for eircom but ffs, 3? ffs 3G having ANYTHING to do with the NBS is just insane as watty and many others have pointed out time and time again.

I'm stuck for words and think i'll just stop here before i go on one of my mad rants and get a ban............

What can we do? If people here or on the IOFL site have anything in mind you can count me in for sure.

thebman

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Nobody here knows how the 3 / BT Network will be rolled out as of yet, everyone here is talking like they know exactly what is planned and how bad it's going to be...., I'm giving it until mid december when 3 switch on their 7.2mb before I pass judgement....

@everyone else, leave Mr Ryan alone, don't upset him anymore or he'll probably slap a carbon tax on boards.ie

Its kind of safe to assume a Mobile BB provider will use their Mobile BB network to rollout the solution and since Mobile BB isn't real BB then it is unacceptable especially for business.

I'm glad your happy with it but this will be fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas so it is not a good thing and we should not leave the minister alone for making an extremely poor decision.

drunkmonkey

brim4brim wrote: »

Its kind of safe to assume a Mobile BB provider will use their Mobile BB network to rollout the solution and since Mobile BB isn't real BB then it is unacceptable especially for business.

I'm glad your happy with it but this will be fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas so it is not a good thing and we should not leave the minister alone for making an extremely poor decision.

Not everyone would share your opinion, By your own admission you were never a customer of 3 and you will never be. Eircom dialup is "fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas"
You seem to do nothing but bash 3 at every possible opportunity, you have never been a customer, that makes all your hate and rage unfounded.

Great your dad has moved to 02 from 3, but 02 will suffer the same faith as more customers join, this has already happend to them in places.

Your posts are without justification. You are not a customer, give it a rest.

johnplayerblue

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Not everyone would share your opinion, By your own admission you were never a customer of 3 and you will never be. Eircom dialup is "fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas"
You seem to do nothing but bash 3 at every possible opportunity, you have never been a customer, that makes all your hate and rage unfounded.

Great your dad has moved to 02 from 3, but 02 will suffer the same faith as more customers join, this has already happend to them in places.

Your posts are without justification. You are not a customer, give it a rest.

My sister, brother and myself were customers of 3 and they are an absolute money taking disgrace not fit to flush the foking toilet they belong in.

drunkmonkey

johnplayerblue wrote: »

My sister, brother and myself were customers of 3 and they are an absolute money taking disgrace not fit to flush the foking toilet they belong in.

I agree with you to a point. They get the whole thing completly wrong from Launch, this does not mean the product is bad forever, it just means it's bad until they catch up with themselves, which they are doing, replacing their network only after 3 years can not have been an easy decision but hopefully it will make a difference going forward.

Sponge Bob

It will make a difference but they have far too many customers per sector anyway , they only have enough cells to realistically give about 30000 customers close to a guaranteed 1mbit service ( once they upgrade to 14.4mbits next year and allowing for overhead) but they have crammed 106k customers onto that network.

Voda has fewer customers on significantly more sectors and with fallback to GPRS unlike 3 .

Then 3 ship broken modems back out to customers in new packaging and pretend that there is nothing wrong with them

johnplayerblue

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I agree with you to a point. They get the whole thing completly wrong from Launch, this does not mean the product is bad forever, it just means it's bad until they catch up with themselves, which they are doing, replacing their network only after 3 years can not have been an easy decision but hopefully it will make a difference going forward.

Why do i have a feeling that the very same line will be taken in 4 yrs time.

PogMoThoin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I agree with you to a point. They get the whole thing completly wrong from Launch, this does not mean the product is bad forever, it just means it's bad until they catch up with themselves, which they are doing, replacing their network only after 3 years can not have been an easy decision but hopefully it will make a difference going forward.

:rolleyes: schill methinks,

You're the only one defending them here, most of us have seen the big thread with over 5000 posts

drunkmonkey

johnplayerblue wrote: »

Why do i have a feeling that the very same line will be taken in 4 yrs time.

you won't, 3 will have meteor GPRS to fall back on by then:)

drunkmonkey

PogMoThoin wrote: »

You're the only one defending them here, most of us have seen the big thread with over 5000 posts

I'm not defending them, I'm saying they were a better choice than Eircom.

As for the Megga Thread, how big would eircom or bt's thread by now if anyone had started a MEEGGaAA thread about them, christ Gerry Ryan would attact more than 5000 posts if he had his own MEEGGAAA Thread...

You sign up 100,000 customers to PogMoThoin Broadband and see what happens.......I think 02 are learning very quicky at them moment...

PogMoThoin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm not defending them, I'm saying they were a better choice than Eircom.

But were they? Time will tell.

The problem with the NBS is it was flawed from the very start. Ireland doesn't need a National Broadband Scheme, it needs a Regional Broadband Scheme and a proper overseeing authority. It should start with the creation of a proper fibre network within 50miles of every home, independant of all other networks that are already in existence. Each regional area should then be tackled seperately using whetever technology it takes to get proper broadband to the people, not a half-arsed attempt like this.

watty

It wouldn't matter if "3" was the most fantastic company in the world. Unless you have enough masts that only a max of five people per sector, it will just get slower.

Assuming 20% of the 100,000 are online at once (i.e. 80% don't get always on) = 20,000
that means 4,000 sectors = about 1,300 masts. Average speed on 7.2Mbps would be less than 1Mbps for many. Approximately only those within 500m of mast get full speed

The problem is the technology and planning is designed for intermittant use like phone calls or brief data on a phone. It can't take the load of Fixed Internet Usage. ONE HOUSE could have a modem shared by router to five users. . As the Internet gets more popular and more people doing not just the odd online commerce but watching YouTube etc (TV is terrible these days), Social chat via Skype, Twitter, IRC, Boards etc they whould need about 3,600 masts for EXISTING user base.

If user base doubles over the next 3 years as they add NBS and new customers they would need nearly 6,000 masts to give ENTRY LEVEL broadband speeds.

Also drunkmonkey, that doesn't solve the problems of latency, jitter, poor building penetration at 2.1GHz and low speed. Forget about streaming your own content while out of house or VPN to your own Home computer, you need a steady 512k to 1Mbps upload.

This all assumes they solve all the other problems that are NOT HSDPA related that they have had.

Does anyone believe "3" will have 6,000 masts in 2 or 3 years time?

Does any Communications Expert believe that Always On Broadband, with gaming, VPN, VOIP, upload streaming etc can be delivered by ANYONE using HSDPA ever? If it was possible they would not at this very moment be trialling LTE and various operators holding off on EVDO Rev B (a kind of USA / Qualcomm version of HSDPA) and Mobile WiMax in hope that LTE will be commercial next year?

Mobile Wimax has not got the Spectrum in Ireland and there are no firm plans yet for LTE spectrum here. Mobile Wimax is more reliable than HSDPA, but only if you can get a lower frequency than the normal 2.6GHz its used on. It's not much faster though. To have speed and lots of users you need LOTS of spectrum. That means higher frequencies that need a fixed outdoor radio. HSDPA is "3"'s 2.1Ghz licence. That's the spectrum they have and it doesn't support lots of users or speed.

As a cell gets loaded the top HSDPA speed per USER (for the 7.2Mbps total of sector) will drop to less than other ISP's throttled speeds! With Fixed wireless Broadband a full mast sector could be as much as 150Mbps adding the channels. It needs LOS outdoor radio though. However no high latency, no jitter, always connects and no cell breathe. Capacity splits evenly, i.e. with 48 users the capacity (if all are on same package) is 1/48th or over 3Mbps each. With HSDPA and 48 users the speed is typically 1/100th, i.e. as low as 72kbps.

HSDPA is a fast mobile solution and an alternative to ISDN or dialup for many users. Even if EU passes a law, it won't make it be Broadband. HSDPA is Mobile "Midband" if we take Comreg's name of Dialup and basic ISDN, Narrowband. HSDPA is DESIGNED for intermittent Mobile Use.

It doesn't matter if "3"'s HSDPA is 10 times better than eircom's proposal. They should have gone back to the drawing board. That's what you do if there aren't suitable tenders. It's Ominous that ultimately there were ONLY two tenders, the others withdrew, not rejected. That raises questions.

Slutmonkey57b

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm guessing they are going to ignore your letter, Nice try though:)

You seem very upset about 3 winning, how many broadband options have you where you live?

As it's clear at this point you work directly for or benefit from the increase in sales of 3 subscriptions, I am not going to direct my answers at you, but I will respond to dismiss the arguments you make.

My anger, quite clearly stated in the email, is directed at the Minister on the grounds of:
Failed Leadership
Failed Comprehension
Failed Analysis
Failed Responsibility
Failed Justification
In his decision to award this contract (and our taxpayer's money which is needed in other sectors) to an operator that has neither the technical capability or the logistical skill to enable this network to the specifications. (follow the links). Spending less money now on a broken solution that's going to have to be replaced with a more expensive working one down the line is good political decision making by Irish standards but it sells the citizens short in the long run. Typical of that Department in particular and the succession of incompetent Ministers who have languished in it.

I'm waiting for broadband for 20+ years, so far only 3 of the mobile operators have come up with any kind of solution, giving the contract to Eircom would have been unforgivable especially when it looks like the company will be sold again, it would have completly set back any advancement of the dire access problem people have at the moment...

20 years? Waiting for broadband in 1988? Unless you were in the market for a leased line, I think not.

Eircom's failure to provide access is the fault of the Dept. of Communications who have steadfastly refused to regulate and enforce. As a company, they have merely copied the tactics that other monopoly operators perfected in the past (BT). Assuming we had a regulator with stones, and who bothered to read the history books of BT's privatisation, we would today have a more responsible eircom with a functional USP. We don't. If it weren't for IoffL rocking the boat, we wouldn't have what we have now.

Nobody here knows how the 3 / BT Network will be rolled out as of yet, everyone here is talking like they know exactly what is planned and how bad it's going to be...., I'm giving it until mid december when 3 switch on their 7.2mb before I pass judgement....

On the contrary, there are many posters on this board who understand very well that the only way 3 *can* roll out this network is a solution that also *cannot* work as advertised. They don't have Fibre, they don't have FWI spectrum, they don't have copper, they don't have LLU. 3g mobile is their only choice in the timeframe available, and it won't work.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

you won't, 3 will have meteor GPRS to fall back on by then:)

3 already rely on o2 (who have GPRS) to run a large proportion of their network for them in places they couldn't get access. They are now proposing to create a large, new network in the space of 2 years, when they couldn't be trusted to get their original network up and running. Buying up metor is not going to solve the problem of fundamental incompetence, systematic corporate shystering, and technical obsolescence.

drunkmonkey

PogMoThoin wrote: »

But were they? Time will tell.

The problem with the NBS is it was flawed from the very start. Ireland doesn't need a National Broadband Scheme, it needs a Regional Broadband Scheme and a proper overseeing authority. It should start with the creation of a proper fibre network within 50miles of every home, independant of all other networks that are already in existence. Each regional area should then be tackled seperately using whetever technology it takes to get proper broadband to the people, not a half-arsed attempt like this.

God only knows if they were the right choice, faith has dealth them a lucky hand after last years disaster, it's now up to 3 to play their cards right and win the game...with BT on hand and Eircom being pushed to sort out the back end it could be a good year, they need a lot more masts but that will take time and lots of planning permission....It's a 6 year plan, I really hope were not having this discusson in 2014....

As for a regional broadband scheme, the goverment still can't build a road from A -B, they would have little hope of pulling off a proper fiber network...managed by yet another quango:)

drunkmonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

3 already rely on o2

Oops...you meant Voda...

Look anyway, there were 2 choices for Eamonn Ryan, Eircom or 3? I think it was the right decision to not pick Eircom, that is all I am saying.
tbh, it dosen't matter to me if you go for Eircom, 02, Voda whoever, my view here is my personal opinion not my commercial one...

watty

GPRS is horrendous latency and never more than 56k.

Back in 2001 I had a Nokia Communicator (N9210?) and using two GSM channels it did 28kbps at lower latency than GPRS and often HSDPA is higher latency. I used it to test fax servers and test access web sites just installed from outside the LAN.

Web pages are bigger now. This NBS would have been a good solution 7 years ago. Except HSDPA didn't exist then.