[Article]3 preferred over eircom for broadband plan

KK Dub

godskitchen wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if they are talking about using HSDPA? If so it does not meet the original criteria.....

From what I understand they plan to deploy HSPA.
Apparently eircom were planning to deliver the service via Meteor's 3G network and not by FWA or DSL. Given that Meteor don't as yet have a commercial 3G network this may not have helped.

godskitchen

There will be no FOI, its public money and as a matter of course they have to declare where it is going, so yes the bids will be available.......if they are not already.

The DCENR says :
"The final product that consumers will receive from the NBS will be an always on service of at least 1Mbit/s down and 128kbits/s up. The minimum download capacity per connection will be 10 gigabits per month and the service must support Virtual Private Networks (VPN) for businesses and VoIP applications and devices for home business purposes. Latency must be sufficient in order to allow standard applications such as VoIP and online gaming to be run"

I am quoting the above from another user, so I do not know how true it is, can any one confirm if this was the original call?

If it is/was, I really fail to see how HSDPA can cope with the requirements of this.

This is why I asked if they planned to use HSDPA......I don't see how it can be done, correct me if I am wrong.

As far as I can see, we the tax payer will be helping a shoddy company (Three) expand their network for free.......or will the network be exclusive for the poor people that cant get BB by another source? Either way I am not going to pay any more tax if its going to Three.....................mass civil disobedience any one?:D:D:D:D

Walkman

watty wrote: »

A small one. They Roam to Vodaphone. They have been planning to increase it. They need about x6 mast sites anyway.

87% is a small one? Data does not roam on vodafone btw

Bob the Builder

From someone who sells three modems, it's not three's fault. it's never their fault for anything. the question is; is it because your computer doesn't work? Coz it's not our fault?

...even though, for example, last saturday, i got 4 people bringing in their laptops/modems to fix because it suddenly stopped working.

Considering I work one day a week, and this happens at least once every month, i don't see how everyone in my local town would have a broken laptop.

their customer care is located in india, and if anything goes wrong, they will be viewing a mast from a screen that they have in front of them. Three recently put a mast in achill, and yet when i rang customer care, they denied it existed because it wasn't on their map.

from my point of view(as a seller), the only service available to me, based in ireland, is three dealer support (which always refer you to tech support in india anyway).

This proves that democracy doesn't work, neither does eircom, and now Three are getting paid to implement a below par service.

If i had a choice between dial-up and three, i'd be tempted to keep dial-up. I don't know who's cheaper, or what it's costing anyone, but if you're getting HSDPA as your national system, then you are setting low standards.

To put it in context, it's like trying to supply domestic electricity through telephone lines. Theoretically, it will work, but in practise, it will fry the telephone cable.

watty

Walkman wrote: »

87% is a small one? Data does not roam on vodafone btw

Is 87% Population Coverage? or Geographic? including Vodaphone Masts?

Sponge Bob claims they have 100 Mast sites in use. I think O2 has nearer 600 and relies on GSM/GPRS/EDGE in some rural areas. You need more masts for same coverage of 3G (higher frequency) than GSM. I've heard 300 sites mentioned as a reasonable initial coverage in Ireland for the better GSM frequencies.

thebman

Walkman wrote: »

87% is a small one? Data does not roam on vodafone btw

87% is a optimistic evaluation. My parents were about 10 miles inside 3's coverage area when they first launched their Mobile Broadband and were getting one bar signal near the window, unusable if the modem wasn't near the window.

That is what 3 refer to as "coverage". It is their own quaint little definition of the word.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1125/breaking77.htm

Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan and 3 executives are expected to sign the six-year deal next month when further details will be announced.

Not signed yet so still time to complain and try to prevent this joke!!

If you aren't as p*ssed as I am about this yet, please read this from the departments website. I think it will get you there if you know anything about this:
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/3+-+a+Hutchison+Whampoa+company+-+appointed+Preferred+Tenderer+for+the+National+Broadband+Scheme.htm

3 - a Hutchison Whampoa company - appointed Preferred Tenderer for the National Broadband Scheme

Dublin, 25 November, 2008

Communications Minister, Eamon Ryan today announced that “3”, a Hutchison Whampoa company, has been selected as the Preferred Tenderer for the National Broadband Scheme. This follows the conclusion of a competitive tendering process.


The National Broadband Scheme will deliver broadband to those areas of the country currently unserved. Following 3’s appointment as Preferred Tenderer today, work will be finalised on the contract in the coming weeks, with a final announcement expected upon completion of the contract matters next month.


Commenting on the appointment, Minister Ryan said: “I am delighted to announce that I have appointed 3 as the Preferred Tenderer for the National Broadband Scheme (NBS). It is imperative that we have universal broadband coverage in Ireland, for foreign investment, for competitiveness and for our own businesses and householders.


Broadband availability will be central to our economic recovery.”


ENDS

Sam Vimes

Bob the Builder wrote: »

From someone who sells three modems, it's not three's fault. it's never their fault for anything. the question is; is it because your computer doesn't work? Coz it's not our fault?

...even though, for example, last saturday, i got 4 people bringing in their laptops/modems to fix because it suddenly stopped working.

Considering I work one day a week, and this happens at least once every month, i don't see how everyone in my local town would have a broken laptop.

oh but they can. and when i have a problem with my phone service and everyone i know on 3 is having the same problem and if i put my sim in any of my 4 handsets i still have the problem, obviously the solution to this problem is to log my 3 handset in for repair (but not any of my other phones that are experiencing the same problem) and it's perfectly acceptable to refuse to do any other tests until i log my handset in and wait a week

Sam Vimes

watty wrote: »

Is 87% Population Coverage? or Geographic? including Vodaphone Masts?

Sponge Bob claims they have 100 Mast sites in use. I think O2 has nearer 600 and relies on GSM/GPRS/EDGE in some rural areas. You need more masts for same coverage of 3G (higher frequency) than GSM. I've heard 300 sites mentioned as a reasonable initial coverage in Ireland for the better GSM frequencies.

it's population coverage. they claimed to have 85% when they launched in 2005 so it looks like they're not doing a whole lot of expanding.

Walkman

watty wrote: »

Is 87% Population Coverage? or Geographic? including Vodaphone Masts?

Sponge Bob claims they have 100 Mast sites in use. I think O2 has nearer 600 and relies on GSM/GPRS/EDGE in some rural areas. You need more masts for same coverage of 3G (higher frequency) than GSM. I've heard 300 sites mentioned as a reasonable initial coverage in Ireland for the better GSM frequencies.

officially they currently have 787 of their own 3g live masts nationwide. This gives them their 87% 3g coverage while vodafone covers the rest giving them 99.7% coverage in total

godskitchen

Can anyone answer my questions above?

Also what is are their customer numbers now? Are they still stuck on 3%......how ironic!

Walkman

Sam Vimes wrote: »

it's population coverage. they claimed to have 85% when they launched in 2005 so it looks like they're not doing a whole lot of expanding.

No they claimed 60% 3g coverage at time of launch and still had the roaming agreement with vodafone.

Walkman

godskitchen wrote: »

Can anyone answer my questions above?

Also what is are their customer numbers now? Are they still stuck on 3%......how ironic!

Their customer base is now 318,000 with 106,000 broadband users

digiman

watty wrote: »

Is 87% Population Coverage? or Geographic? including Vodaphone Masts?

Sponge Bob claims they have 100 Mast sites in use. I think O2 has nearer 600 and relies on GSM/GPRS/EDGE in some rural areas. You need more masts for same coverage of 3G (higher frequency) than GSM. I've heard 300 sites mentioned as a reasonable initial coverage in Ireland for the better GSM frequencies.

I've no idea where you go your figures but you are way off. 3 have over 700 sites in Ireland all of which are HSPDA. O2 have around 2k sites, I'm not sure how many of them are 3G though. Vodafone have a very similar amount of sites to O2.

thebman

We now have several figures and nobody has backed up anything. Can a mod clean up that mess.

Its clear nobody knows.

The out and about coverage doesn't really count since it can't be used properly indoors at this distance.

This is their coverage map from their website. The bright blue is the real coverage unless you want to stand outside and freeze your nuts off to use your it.



THe 85% includes the out and about as coverage when it isn't proper coverage. It should be noted that when they first launched they just had coverage and everything was marked the same as if there was no difference (another reason their scum). This is how they really arrived at the imaginary number of 85% coverage.

Sam Vimes

Walkman wrote: »

No they claimed 60% 3g coverage at time of launch and still had the roaming agreement with vodafone.

they told me 85% when i went to their training day just before they launched and it said 85% on their website for the first two years.....

edit:
but these links:
http://www.digitalmediaasia.com/default.asp?ArticleID=22177
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5243/is_200702/ai_n19692159

are suggesting they reached it in 2007. possibly they just said it was 85% on their website. wouldn't surprise me

watty

digiman wrote: »

I've no idea where you go your figures but you are way off. 3 have over 700 sites in Ireland all of which are HSPDA. O2 have around 2k sites, I'm not sure how many of them are 3G though. Vodafone have a very similar amount of sites to O2.

I said the figures were posted here and over here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=60 by Sponge Bob. I don't claim any special wisdom or knowledge on this.

The 2K would include GSM.

3 only have 3G/HSDPA. Does the 700 include: micro / pico cells, vodaphone sites they use or sites about to be done/just recently done?

foggy_lad

Walkman wrote: »

Their customer base is now 318,000 with 106,000 broadband users

does this broadband figure include customers using mobile broadband from their handsets?

also i have a three mast in my back garden(200meters away) but still got such rubbbish service for 8 months they cancelled my contract after a long battle after giving me three months free service, and even refunded the modem cost!

MunsterCycling

foggy_lad wrote: »

does this broadband figure include customers using mobile broadband from their handsets?

also i have a three mast in my back garden(200meters away) but still got such rubbbish service for 8 months they cancelled my contract after a long battle after giving me three months free service, and even refunded the modem cost!

Watty will know more but I'd say you could have been too close for that mast to work for you?

MC

Walkman

watty wrote: »

I said the figures were posted here and over here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=60 by Sponge Bob. I don't claim any special wisdom or knowledge on this.

The 2K would include GSM.

3 only have 3G/HSDPA. Does the 700 include: micro / pico cells, vodaphone sites they use or sites about to be done/just recently done?

3 have 787 sites live (none of which are micro sites).

Magnet: Rory

Is there any plans to do something about this? How much is the contract costing?

thebman

Rorser wrote: »

Is there any plans to do something about this? How much is the contract costing?

Yeah everyone willing to should email their local td and Eamon Ryan expressing how unsatisified this result is.

Local papers too if you can. If enough people do this, it will start getting noticed that this decision was crap.

Slutmonkey57b

cc'd to Newstalk lunchtime and Last Word, assuming they care:
(mods censor as they think appropriate, I have attempted to avoid all personal abuse and foul language).

Dear Minister,

I see that the announcement has been made that 3 Ireland (Hutchinson Whampoa) have been awarded the tender for the National Broadband Scheme.

As a taxpayer who has watched literally millions of euro wasted (either in form of direct payments for unlit fibre rings, or by giving incumbent operators licence to fleece customers and competitors at whatever rates they see fit) through what can only be described as total ineptitude by a series of Ministers and ComReg from the early 1990's onward, who are supposedly acting on my behalf, and in my interests, I should not be surprised that the award for yet another "saviour" scheme has gone to the most unreliable, inept, technologically backward, monetarily wasteful option available.

While the formulation of the scheme was, as we have come to expect, deeply flawed, the decision to award the tender to a company that does not possess equipment technically capable of fulfilling it, frankly beggars belief. Or it would do if we weren't so used to this quality of decision making in the Communications Department.

As usual, I shall refer you to the considered experts on the situation, who have been proven time and time again that they are better informed, more intelligent, more reasonable, more logical than the appointed officials of the major companies, government, or ComReg, and who have provided the true leadership and reason to the Irish public; the members of Ireland Offline:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58031030&postcount=4

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58035586&postcount=26

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055115306
(surely you've read this last one.)

I think that in three (irony) simple posts you can see clearly why a) 3G mobile broadband is the wrong choice, b) 3 Ireland is the wrong company to run it. Unless, of course, the decision making process takes no account of either technical matters or consumer affairs, in which case I apologise for bringing it to your attention.

With this decision, you have clearly, and forthrightly taken your place among the many former Minsiters of Communcation who don't understand the problems, don't understand the solutions, don't listen to the people they are supposed to represent, don't possess the political will to do anything about it, and are quite happy to throw as much bad money after the bad money they have already spent as they can possibly get their hands on.

On a positive note, you also have the legacy of handing free money to certain electronics conglomerates by forcing us all to by particular types of light bulbs, and handing out free money to energy surveyors to carry out essentially bogus "audits" of our homes or install wood pellet burners, both of which will sustain us in these testing economic times by lowering our costs of living. I particularly like the wood pellet scheme, as unlike provision of less intelligent systems like natural gas, or lowering the cost of already cheap insulation methods, wood pellets are magically teleported into the furnace, and don't at all rely on large diesel burning trucks to cart the things around, which coupled with the energy used in growing the forests, cutting the trees, transporting the trees, pulping them and pelletising them will stand as a great example of modern 21st century thinking and not at all a throwback to the days when we all dragged bags of coal in off the street.

Congratulations.
I have never voted in any Irish election before, on the basis that any given Irish politician is just as likely to be corrupt/inept/greedy/clueless/desperate to shovel taxpayer's money at a friend of his (delete as appropriate) as the politician he's running against.
Almost single handed, you have changed my mind.

Yous sincerely,
A Taxpayer.

Sponge Bob

I should have checked this properly , I have since.

3 have more than 100 sites , they probably have near enough 800 as asserted by others and that is not counting the Voda 2g sites they roam on for voice and txt .

When I checked the information further it appears they only own or lease 100 sites themselves outright and co -lo on the balance .

I was very wrong . Sorry for all the time wasted discussing that .

This means that they have around 120 customers per mast or 40 per sector , averaged out . This would imply that there is a crude average of 180kbits available per user , sometimes more , often way less.

Their backhaul is dire but they have contracted Nokia to whip it all out and replace it , along with their Node B's in the cells .

The PROBLEM with 3 is that they blatantly lie about their coverage . I have an example here by reference to Vodafone who do NOT lie about their coverage .

3 Have about 10 masts in Donegal while Voda have about 15 . You would never think so from looking at the 3 coverage map all the same

On the 3 map , light blue = some signal and dark blue = usable signal . You would think most of Donegal is well sorted .

On the Voda map , orange = some signal and red = usable signal . As you you can see Voda do NOT claim most of Donegal is well sorted . Far from it . It would take another 30 cells to get anything like good coverage in Donegal .

Once you load these cells with WAY TOO MANY customers, as 3 tend to do , the Dark Blue ares shrinks to a small fraction of its THEORETICAL coverage which is in itself a lie

Then you have to crawl through the dire 3 backhaul to break out on the one IP address ( which is blacklisted) in Dublin .



Voda



Finally, in the interests of balance here is the EIRCOM 3G Coverage Map in Donegal for yiz

drunkmonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

cc'd to Newstalk lunchtime and Last Word, assuming they care:
(mods censor as they think appropriate, I have attempted to avoid all personal abuse and foul language).

I'm guessing they are going to ignore your letter, Nice try though:)

You seem very upset about 3 winning, how many broadband options have you where you live?

I'm waiting for broadband for 20+ years, so far only 3 of the mobile operators have come up with any kind of solution, giving the contract to Eircom would have been unforgivable especially when it looks like the company will be sold again, it would have completly set back any advancement of the dire access problem people have at the moment...

Nobody here knows how the 3 / BT Network will be rolled out as of yet, everyone here is talking like they know exactly what is planned and how bad it's going to be...., I'm giving it until mid december when 3 switch on their 7.2mb before I pass judgement....

@everyone else, leave Mr Ryan alone, don't upset him anymore or he'll probably slap a carbon tax on boards.ie

johnplayerblue

Shocking. This really is the single most shocking descion that any minister has ever made with regard to Ireland's broadband future.

I for one will be mailing Eamon (Two steps forward 4 steps back) Ryan and others.

I like a lot of people have no love for eircom but ffs, 3? ffs 3G having ANYTHING to do with the NBS is just insane as watty and many others have pointed out time and time again.

I'm stuck for words and think i'll just stop here before i go on one of my mad rants and get a ban............

What can we do? If people here or on the IOFL site have anything in mind you can count me in for sure.

thebman

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Nobody here knows how the 3 / BT Network will be rolled out as of yet, everyone here is talking like they know exactly what is planned and how bad it's going to be...., I'm giving it until mid december when 3 switch on their 7.2mb before I pass judgement....

@everyone else, leave Mr Ryan alone, don't upset him anymore or he'll probably slap a carbon tax on boards.ie

Its kind of safe to assume a Mobile BB provider will use their Mobile BB network to rollout the solution and since Mobile BB isn't real BB then it is unacceptable especially for business.

I'm glad your happy with it but this will be fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas so it is not a good thing and we should not leave the minister alone for making an extremely poor decision.

drunkmonkey

brim4brim wrote: »

Its kind of safe to assume a Mobile BB provider will use their Mobile BB network to rollout the solution and since Mobile BB isn't real BB then it is unacceptable especially for business.

I'm glad your happy with it but this will be fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas so it is not a good thing and we should not leave the minister alone for making an extremely poor decision.

Not everyone would share your opinion, By your own admission you were never a customer of 3 and you will never be. Eircom dialup is "fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas"
You seem to do nothing but bash 3 at every possible opportunity, you have never been a customer, that makes all your hate and rage unfounded.

Great your dad has moved to 02 from 3, but 02 will suffer the same faith as more customers join, this has already happend to them in places.

Your posts are without justification. You are not a customer, give it a rest.

johnplayerblue

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Not everyone would share your opinion, By your own admission you were never a customer of 3 and you will never be. Eircom dialup is "fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas"
You seem to do nothing but bash 3 at every possible opportunity, you have never been a customer, that makes all your hate and rage unfounded.

Great your dad has moved to 02 from 3, but 02 will suffer the same faith as more customers join, this has already happend to them in places.

Your posts are without justification. You are not a customer, give it a rest.

My sister, brother and myself were customers of 3 and they are an absolute money taking disgrace not fit to flush the foking toilet they belong in.

drunkmonkey

johnplayerblue wrote: »

My sister, brother and myself were customers of 3 and they are an absolute money taking disgrace not fit to flush the foking toilet they belong in.

I agree with you to a point. They get the whole thing completly wrong from Launch, this does not mean the product is bad forever, it just means it's bad until they catch up with themselves, which they are doing, replacing their network only after 3 years can not have been an easy decision but hopefully it will make a difference going forward.

Sponge Bob

It will make a difference but they have far too many customers per sector anyway , they only have enough cells to realistically give about 30000 customers close to a guaranteed 1mbit service ( once they upgrade to 14.4mbits next year and allowing for overhead) but they have crammed 106k customers onto that network.

Voda has fewer customers on significantly more sectors and with fallback to GPRS unlike 3 .

Then 3 ship broken modems back out to customers in new packaging and pretend that there is nothing wrong with them