[Article]3 preferred over eircom for broadband plan

johnplayerblue

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I agree with you to a point. They get the whole thing completly wrong from Launch, this does not mean the product is bad forever, it just means it's bad until they catch up with themselves, which they are doing, replacing their network only after 3 years can not have been an easy decision but hopefully it will make a difference going forward.

Why do i have a feeling that the very same line will be taken in 4 yrs time.

PogMoThoin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I agree with you to a point. They get the whole thing completly wrong from Launch, this does not mean the product is bad forever, it just means it's bad until they catch up with themselves, which they are doing, replacing their network only after 3 years can not have been an easy decision but hopefully it will make a difference going forward.

:rolleyes: schill methinks,

You're the only one defending them here, most of us have seen the big thread with over 5000 posts

drunkmonkey

johnplayerblue wrote: »

Why do i have a feeling that the very same line will be taken in 4 yrs time.

you won't, 3 will have meteor GPRS to fall back on by then:)

drunkmonkey

PogMoThoin wrote: »

You're the only one defending them here, most of us have seen the big thread with over 5000 posts

I'm not defending them, I'm saying they were a better choice than Eircom.

As for the Megga Thread, how big would eircom or bt's thread by now if anyone had started a MEEGGaAA thread about them, christ Gerry Ryan would attact more than 5000 posts if he had his own MEEGGAAA Thread...

You sign up 100,000 customers to PogMoThoin Broadband and see what happens.......I think 02 are learning very quicky at them moment...

PogMoThoin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm not defending them, I'm saying they were a better choice than Eircom.

But were they? Time will tell.

The problem with the NBS is it was flawed from the very start. Ireland doesn't need a National Broadband Scheme, it needs a Regional Broadband Scheme and a proper overseeing authority. It should start with the creation of a proper fibre network within 50miles of every home, independant of all other networks that are already in existence. Each regional area should then be tackled seperately using whetever technology it takes to get proper broadband to the people, not a half-arsed attempt like this.

watty

It wouldn't matter if "3" was the most fantastic company in the world. Unless you have enough masts that only a max of five people per sector, it will just get slower.

Assuming 20% of the 100,000 are online at once (i.e. 80% don't get always on) = 20,000
that means 4,000 sectors = about 1,300 masts. Average speed on 7.2Mbps would be less than 1Mbps for many. Approximately only those within 500m of mast get full speed

The problem is the technology and planning is designed for intermittant use like phone calls or brief data on a phone. It can't take the load of Fixed Internet Usage. ONE HOUSE could have a modem shared by router to five users. . As the Internet gets more popular and more people doing not just the odd online commerce but watching YouTube etc (TV is terrible these days), Social chat via Skype, Twitter, IRC, Boards etc they whould need about 3,600 masts for EXISTING user base.

If user base doubles over the next 3 years as they add NBS and new customers they would need nearly 6,000 masts to give ENTRY LEVEL broadband speeds.

Also drunkmonkey, that doesn't solve the problems of latency, jitter, poor building penetration at 2.1GHz and low speed. Forget about streaming your own content while out of house or VPN to your own Home computer, you need a steady 512k to 1Mbps upload.

This all assumes they solve all the other problems that are NOT HSDPA related that they have had.

Does anyone believe "3" will have 6,000 masts in 2 or 3 years time?

Does any Communications Expert believe that Always On Broadband, with gaming, VPN, VOIP, upload streaming etc can be delivered by ANYONE using HSDPA ever? If it was possible they would not at this very moment be trialling LTE and various operators holding off on EVDO Rev B (a kind of USA / Qualcomm version of HSDPA) and Mobile WiMax in hope that LTE will be commercial next year?

Mobile Wimax has not got the Spectrum in Ireland and there are no firm plans yet for LTE spectrum here. Mobile Wimax is more reliable than HSDPA, but only if you can get a lower frequency than the normal 2.6GHz its used on. It's not much faster though. To have speed and lots of users you need LOTS of spectrum. That means higher frequencies that need a fixed outdoor radio. HSDPA is "3"'s 2.1Ghz licence. That's the spectrum they have and it doesn't support lots of users or speed.

As a cell gets loaded the top HSDPA speed per USER (for the 7.2Mbps total of sector) will drop to less than other ISP's throttled speeds! With Fixed wireless Broadband a full mast sector could be as much as 150Mbps adding the channels. It needs LOS outdoor radio though. However no high latency, no jitter, always connects and no cell breathe. Capacity splits evenly, i.e. with 48 users the capacity (if all are on same package) is 1/48th or over 3Mbps each. With HSDPA and 48 users the speed is typically 1/100th, i.e. as low as 72kbps.

HSDPA is a fast mobile solution and an alternative to ISDN or dialup for many users. Even if EU passes a law, it won't make it be Broadband. HSDPA is Mobile "Midband" if we take Comreg's name of Dialup and basic ISDN, Narrowband. HSDPA is DESIGNED for intermittent Mobile Use.

It doesn't matter if "3"'s HSDPA is 10 times better than eircom's proposal. They should have gone back to the drawing board. That's what you do if there aren't suitable tenders. It's Ominous that ultimately there were ONLY two tenders, the others withdrew, not rejected. That raises questions.

Slutmonkey57b

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm guessing they are going to ignore your letter, Nice try though:)

You seem very upset about 3 winning, how many broadband options have you where you live?

As it's clear at this point you work directly for or benefit from the increase in sales of 3 subscriptions, I am not going to direct my answers at you, but I will respond to dismiss the arguments you make.

My anger, quite clearly stated in the email, is directed at the Minister on the grounds of:
Failed Leadership
Failed Comprehension
Failed Analysis
Failed Responsibility
Failed Justification
In his decision to award this contract (and our taxpayer's money which is needed in other sectors) to an operator that has neither the technical capability or the logistical skill to enable this network to the specifications. (follow the links). Spending less money now on a broken solution that's going to have to be replaced with a more expensive working one down the line is good political decision making by Irish standards but it sells the citizens short in the long run. Typical of that Department in particular and the succession of incompetent Ministers who have languished in it.

I'm waiting for broadband for 20+ years, so far only 3 of the mobile operators have come up with any kind of solution, giving the contract to Eircom would have been unforgivable especially when it looks like the company will be sold again, it would have completly set back any advancement of the dire access problem people have at the moment...

20 years? Waiting for broadband in 1988? Unless you were in the market for a leased line, I think not.

Eircom's failure to provide access is the fault of the Dept. of Communications who have steadfastly refused to regulate and enforce. As a company, they have merely copied the tactics that other monopoly operators perfected in the past (BT). Assuming we had a regulator with stones, and who bothered to read the history books of BT's privatisation, we would today have a more responsible eircom with a functional USP. We don't. If it weren't for IoffL rocking the boat, we wouldn't have what we have now.

Nobody here knows how the 3 / BT Network will be rolled out as of yet, everyone here is talking like they know exactly what is planned and how bad it's going to be...., I'm giving it until mid december when 3 switch on their 7.2mb before I pass judgement....

On the contrary, there are many posters on this board who understand very well that the only way 3 *can* roll out this network is a solution that also *cannot* work as advertised. They don't have Fibre, they don't have FWI spectrum, they don't have copper, they don't have LLU. 3g mobile is their only choice in the timeframe available, and it won't work.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

you won't, 3 will have meteor GPRS to fall back on by then:)

3 already rely on o2 (who have GPRS) to run a large proportion of their network for them in places they couldn't get access. They are now proposing to create a large, new network in the space of 2 years, when they couldn't be trusted to get their original network up and running. Buying up metor is not going to solve the problem of fundamental incompetence, systematic corporate shystering, and technical obsolescence.

drunkmonkey

PogMoThoin wrote: »

But were they? Time will tell.

The problem with the NBS is it was flawed from the very start. Ireland doesn't need a National Broadband Scheme, it needs a Regional Broadband Scheme and a proper overseeing authority. It should start with the creation of a proper fibre network within 50miles of every home, independant of all other networks that are already in existence. Each regional area should then be tackled seperately using whetever technology it takes to get proper broadband to the people, not a half-arsed attempt like this.

God only knows if they were the right choice, faith has dealth them a lucky hand after last years disaster, it's now up to 3 to play their cards right and win the game...with BT on hand and Eircom being pushed to sort out the back end it could be a good year, they need a lot more masts but that will take time and lots of planning permission....It's a 6 year plan, I really hope were not having this discusson in 2014....

As for a regional broadband scheme, the goverment still can't build a road from A -B, they would have little hope of pulling off a proper fiber network...managed by yet another quango:)

drunkmonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

3 already rely on o2

Oops...you meant Voda...

Look anyway, there were 2 choices for Eamonn Ryan, Eircom or 3? I think it was the right decision to not pick Eircom, that is all I am saying.
tbh, it dosen't matter to me if you go for Eircom, 02, Voda whoever, my view here is my personal opinion not my commercial one...

watty

GPRS is horrendous latency and never more than 56k.

Back in 2001 I had a Nokia Communicator (N9210?) and using two GSM channels it did 28kbps at lower latency than GPRS and often HSDPA is higher latency. I used it to test fax servers and test access web sites just installed from outside the LAN.

Web pages are bigger now. This NBS would have been a good solution 7 years ago. Except HSDPA didn't exist then.

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

ultimately there were ONLY two tenders, the others withdrew, not rejected. That raises questions.

Peanuts and Monkeys:rolleyes: It is a recession after all Watty:)

watty

There were FOUR choices:
1) eircom
2) 3
3) Cancel completely (No suitable tenders or No Money excuses)
4) Redesign it and put it for Tender. (Flaws identified and not enough bids)

Magnet: Rory

ill be honest here, i work for Magnet (i cant post on their behalf, nor would i want to) now i know running fibre up and down the country is just not gonna work out...fair enough. but even if the next generation of wireless/mobile access is rolled out theres still very little chance of any company who needs good access basisng itself within these regions.

Come back Eircom..all is forgiven.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

There were FOUR choices:
4) Redesign it and put it for Tender. (Flaws identified and not enough bids)

That one

They should have looked at pushing the state owned fibre ( ESB and Gas) to 50km of each citizen and possibly even fibre to 30km options with co-lo and a high mast at those points and left it to the market thereafter .

Alternatively they could have looked at that and a variant of the Scottish BT Exchange Activate program in conjunction with it .

This is simply a fuc*ing disaster, Ryan will now prattle enlessly about how fantastic and visionary he is in response to each and every Dáil question on teh crapness of Irish Broadban and for the rest of his (hopefully very short) ministerial career

If I ever meet anybody in South Dublin who intends to vote for this man I will thump them

Firetrap

I hope this decision comes back to bite Ryan. It's clearly an attempt to give broadband to the masses on the cheap. There are a couple of things I wonder about

i) Is the Minister aware of the limitations of HSDPA? I wonder has he ever tried to go online with 3 at 8:00 on a rainy Wednesday night? Or did they just give him a modem with priority access?
ii) Does he know how bad 3 are but gave them the contract anyway? Have he or his handlers ever seen the M-M-Megathread on the top of this forum?
iii) Does he actually know what broadband is?

As an ex-3 customer, I'm shocked that they've gotten this. I'm shocked on two levels. One, that a company that's ridden their customers sideways for well over a year is being rewarded for providing a rubbish service. Two, that someone can be stupid enough to believe that HSDPA is a magic bullet that will solve all ills.

Walkman

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Then 3 ship broken modems back out to customers in new packaging and pretend that there is nothing wrong with them

Not true. I think what your referring to are refurbished models, which you fail to mention o2 and vodafone also sell. This is common practise within the mobile industry and all refurbished models are tested to ensure they are fully functional by all operators. Remarks like this just go to show you as a persona who has a personal dislike for the company otherwise you would not fail to mention that the other operators also sell these "broken" modems

godskitchen

Walkman wrote: »

Not true. I think what your referring to are refurbished models, which you fail to mention o2 and vodafone also sell. This is common practise within the mobile industry and all refurbished models are tested to ensure they are fully functional by all operators. Remarks like this just go to show you as a persona who has a personal dislike for the company otherwise you would not fail to mention that the other operators also sell these "broken" modems

No, the real point here is that Three send out broken ones, not refurbished ones.....and then to top it all off they try to tell you that it is your laptop that is at fault......regardless of how many times I tell them my MCSE tells me otherwise.

We need to be careful here, this could fast descend into a slagging match between users. Lets stick to the facts and keep the play ground stuff where it belongs.

There shall be no divide and conquer thanks!

godskitchen

On a lighter note

drunkmonkey

godskitchen wrote: »

No, the real point here is that Three send out broken ones, not refurbished ones.....and then to top it all off they try to tell you that it is your laptop that is at fault

Not correct Man, 99% of the time a modem will work with any laptop albiet with some persistance, There are very few broken ones, The last few modems I got back from repair were relaced with the latest modems...definatley not broken...
Broken and Faulty USB cables are more of a problem than broken modems...and their pretty rare......
Taking off conflicting software and doing an fresh reboot through msconfig will sort most instillation problems..
Maybe the software that's telling you it's the modem at fault is the problem:)

godskitchen

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Maybe the software that's telling you it's the modem at fault is the problem:)

Are you posting that from India? Either that or you have been talking to them for too long.

Anyway, this is not what this thread is about, we are going off topic, which is what they would want.

Regardless of the "Facts" we do know some things for sure, that no one can argue with, and those arguments are enough on their own.

Let us not talk about issues that are hard to prove.

drunkmonkey

godskitchen wrote: »

Anyway, this is not what this thread is about, we are going off topic, which is what they would want.

What is this thread about?, "3 preferred over eircom for broadband plan"

All we've figured out is nobody has any idea if it's going to work but for lack of time for a different plan were stuck with it....This government strategy is to get to the isolated spots, it's not there to compete against fixed line services.....3 can't just stick up masts where they like, they will have to reach the spots no one else has....

tbh, I think this is a quick fix but hopefully as 3 matures so will our fixed line service, It will have to or face extintion....

foggy_lad

while o2 and vodafone tell their customers the are selling them a reduced cost refurbished modem three do not and sell these modems as new at full price as stated by tatsel24
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56779853&postcount=4821

MunsterCycling

foggy_lad wrote: »

while o2 and vodafone tell their customers the are selling them a reduced cost refurbished modem three do not and sell these modems as new at full price as stated by tatsel24
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56779853&postcount=4821

Please keep the thread on topic, issues with 3 services can go to consumer issues and the megathread.

MC

Walkman

foggy_lad wrote: »

while o2 and vodafone tell their customers the are selling them a reduced cost refurbished modem three do not and sell these modems as new at full price as stated by tatsel24
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56779853&postcount=4821

foggylad that sounds more like the rant of an exemployee than anything else (but Im sure its suits your purposes to take the rant as fact)

thebman

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What is this thread about?, "3 preferred over eircom for broadband plan"

To discuss the pros and cons of 3 being selected as the preferred operator for the NBS over eircom. Thought that would be obvious by the title TBH.

All we've figured out is nobody has any idea if it's going to work but for lack of time for a different plan were stuck with it....This government strategy is to get to the isolated spots, it's not there to compete against fixed line services.....3 can't just stick up masts where they like, they will have to reach the spots no one else has....

tbh, I think this is a quick fix but hopefully as 3 matures so will our fixed line service, It will have to or face extintion....

There are no fixed line services in the area for the NBS that is the whole point. To get a reliable service for business in rural areas.

As has been stated many times, 3 can't provide that service on their HSDPA network. No Mobile operator can which is why eircom should have won the contract. Hell better off not doing it at all than letting a mobile operator have the contract.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Not everyone would share your opinion, By your own admission you were never a customer of 3 and you will never be.

No but I have used the service and followed the megathread and was a member of the 3 site dedicated to highlighting the problem with 3's network all as 3 ignored their users.

Eircom dialup is "fooking useless to business and a lot of users in rural areas"

Doesn't cost the tax payer millions and it won't be used as an excuse by government to say that they implemented the NBS. That is the difference right there. I'm well aware that eircom dial up is useless to business, I have friends running businesses in rural areas using satellite BB because eircom dial up and mobile bb is not dependable enough for businesses like his that need access to the Internet during the day.

You seem to do nothing but bash 3 at every possible opportunity, you have never been a customer, that makes all your hate and rage unfounded.

I don't like companies with poor customer service or companies that crap on their customers. I don't have to be a customer to fight for the customers of the company. I also have reported several other companies to regulatory bodies on several occasions and encouraged people on boards to do the same. So I don't just hate on 3 although so far they are quite possibly the worst company I've ever seen that pretends to be a respectable business. Most companies that act like 3 at least appear as sleazy as they are.

Great your dad has moved to 02 from 3, but 02 will suffer the same faith as more customers join, this has already happend to them in places.

Never said it wouldn't. O2 are more expensive which means less people will join them as most people will just pick the cheaper service. Also O2's mast is about 4 miles closer than 3's which is why my parents get much better service from it. It is a mast in a rural area for rural users. 3's mast was in the town and they were pretending it could offer service out to our area where as we are actually in the proper coverage zone for O2. When my dad signed up for 3 originally, he was in the coverage zone and after many complaints 3 redrew their maps to mark the area an out and about area.

An intentional attempt to mislead consumers by 3.

Your posts are without justification. You are not a customer, give it a rest.

I'm completely justified in my posts and I have the right to complain about anything I want thanks. I know you'd like it if I went away since you have an invested interest in people not complaining about 3 because you make money off them which is clear from your posts.

Don't know why you said you didn't work for them. If you don't work for them, you are trying very hard without justification to defend them. Give it a rest :rolleyes:

Sam Vimes

Walkman wrote: »

foggylad that sounds more like the rant of an exemployee than anything else (but Im sure its suits your purposes to take the rant as fact)

yes it does sound like a rant but as a former sales person of these modems a lot of it rings true for me, especially the bit about not cancelling people's contracts and continuing to take their money

Sam Vimes

brim4brim wrote: »

Hell better off not doing it at all than letting a mobile operator have the contract.

this is true. the only differences between giving it to three and not doing it are:

1. millions of government money will be spent
2. thousands of people will waste time and money getting these modems only to find out they don't work
3. these people will then waste more time and money trying to get 3 to cancel their contracts

brim4brim wrote: »

I'm completely justified in my posts and I have the right to complain about anything I want thanks. I know you'd like it if I went away since you have an invested interest in people not complaining about 3 because you make money off them which is clear from your posts.

Don't know why you said you didn't work for them. If you don't work for them, you are trying very hard without justification to defend them. Give it a rest :rolleyes:

he doesn't work for 3 directly but he works in a shop that sells 3 products and other networks. from his posts in the mobiles forum i think it's a small independent retailer. he's also their biggest fan, isn't that right dm

watty

brim4brim wrote: »

To discuss the pros and cons of 3 being selected as the preferred operator for the NBS over eircom. Thought that would be obvious by the title TBH.



There are no fixed line services in the area for the NBS that is the whole point. To get a reliable service for business in rural areas.

As has been stated many times, 3 can't provide that service on their HSDPA network. No Mobile operator can which is why eircom should have won the contract. Hell better off not doing it at all than letting a mobile operator have the contract.

< snipage >

eircom's Meteor has started rolling out HSDPA, I got the impression that due to Spectrum problems (look at how small some white areas are on map), eircom was discussing using Meteor HSDPA rather than FWA. For sure almost none of it would have been DSL.

Unless you are prepared to scrap current NBS and start again (awkward politically), they were actually between a rock and hard place due to the lack of any of the established major Wireless operators or providers having any interest, that in turn due to the fine print of tender TOC. The winner is blocked (I think) from alternate commercial exploitation in those areas and has everything audited.

Also Fixed wireless is VERY expensive to install compared with giving someone an HSDPA modem and Router. (My reading of it is that the winner has to provide DSL like ethernet /router connection. Draytek, Linksys, Dlink, Dovado and Netgear all to suitable boxes that are cheaper than FWA outdoor wireless set, which STILL needs a indoor router too!)

drunkmonkey

brim4brim wrote: »

I don't like companies with poor customer service or companies that crap on their customers. I don't have to be a customer to fight for the customers of the company.

Your A real live champion of the Consumer, your second name isn't hobbs by any chance?
Your comment don't make my job or a lot of other people in the industrys Jobs any easier. I've had customers coming in having rants at me over unfounded comments from posters like you on boards.ie.
Your not a customer, you hate 3, you know very little about how Eircom has been funded to roll out broadband.
tbh, you said you work for a website, i'd be very surprised if it's not Eircom.net..

drunkmonkey

Sam Vimes wrote: »

isn't that right dm

that's right Sam, on the button as usual;)

wonder if OP want me to check his ericom line for BB while i'm here:D