The Santa Clause*

Eglinton

A short time ago, my meandering thoughts found themselves mulling around the subject of childrens' fantasies and the facilitation of such by adults.

Here's the scenario:

You're discussing the possibility of having children at some stage in your life. Your atheism is highlighted by whomever you're talking to, who proclaims that, seeing as you're not going to ask your kids to believe in god, then you may as well not make Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy a part of their lives either.

I would whole heartedly disagree and here's why -

Children have incredible imaginations which probably helps in developing their thought processes. The real world is too complex to comprehend at first so they need 'easy answers' to fill the void. Santa Claus et al provide the perfect solution whilst also keeping them entertained. As the children grow older, they begin to question the viability of said beings thus developing their critical thinking ability. By the time they're say, 10 or 12, they should have figured out the reality of the situation and have attained a healthy level of sceptism of anything they're told from there on; including religion. So Santa is a very useful concept for Atheist parents.


What do you think?

Galvasean

Most kids figure out Santa isn't real before age ten. They just don't want to admit it in case they won't get presents anymore.
I say roll with it and let them have some fun.

Zillah

Deeply flawed because of two assumptions:
1 - That children cannot comprehend reality.
2 - Initial dellusion is required to develop critical thinking.

I would disagree with both of these.

MrPudding

My 10 year old still apparently believes in santa. I actually genuinely believe she does. Funny enough she thinks god doesn't exist, no proof. go figure.

MrP

Zillah

I'd like to see people try and ride the bike Jesus brought them

The Bollox

Zillah wrote: »

I'd like to see people try and ride the bike Jesus brought them

why would Jesus give YORE MA as a gift?

robindch

Eglinton wrote: »

By the time they're say, 10 or 12, they should have figured out the reality of the situation and have attained a healthy level of sceptism of anything they're told from there on; including religion.

Sadly untrue. Take a look at the Other Forum, where, every day, grown men and women regularly point out how strongly they believe what are obviously fairy(*) stories. And that's on the reasonable side of the church. Things are a lot weirder across the aisle where the JC's of this world manage to turn the outer recesses of imagination into something so dumb, it's amazing.

Anyhow, Santa doesn't come with a lot of stories and a priesthood, telling people in sepulchral tones that they'll have their toenails pulled for all eternity if they don't believe what they're told to believe. I wonder what would happen if there was...

(*) not stories about gay people, of course. That'd be silly.

Doctor DooM

MrPudding wrote: »

My 10 year old still apparently believes in santa. I actually genuinely believe she does. Funny enough she thinks god doesn't exist, no proof. go figure.

MrP

If you think about it there is more evidence for Santa- he keeps giving her stuff!

condra

Haha yeah. I just thought that. "There is more evidence of the existence of Santa than there is of God."
I like it. :P

Anyway, the subject of wether or not the Santa delusion is harmful to kids, is one that I haven't given much thought, being childfree myself.

As an x-Christian, I think my former theism did me much more harm than my former Santaism.

pH

Bringing up kids (in Ireland today) who didn't believe in Santa might make life awkward for their friends, you mightn't be the most popular parent at the school gates for December.

Believing in Santa seems fairly harmless, and isn't that much more than a lot of fantasy "make believe" that kids engage in which is encouraged by adults - this seems to be part of the joy of childhood.

That said, millions of kids have wonderful childhoods without believing in Santa, so not having Santa wouldn't be the end of the world if a parent decided against it.

Galvasean

MrPudding wrote: »

My 10 year old still apparently believes in santa. I actually genuinely believe she does. Funny enough she thinks god doesn't exist, no proof. go figure.

Fanny Cradock

robindch wrote: »

Sadly untrue. Take a look at the Other Forum, where, every day, grown men and women regularly point out how strongly they believe what are obviously fairy(*) stories. And that's on the reasonable side of the church. Things are a lot weirder across the aisle where the JC's of this world manage to turn the outer recesses of imagination into something so dumb, it's amazing.

Anyhow, Santa doesn't come with a lot of stories and a priesthood, telling people in sepulchral tones that they'll have their toenails pulled for all eternity if they don't believe what they're told to believe. I wonder what would happen if there was...

(*) not stories about gay people, of course. That'd be silly.

I don't see why you are scoffing. By your own admission you once believed in God - and this when you were a grown man.

rockbeer

This thread reminds me of the confused devil-worshipper who sold his soul to santa.

Galvasean

rockbeer wrote: »

This thread reminds me of the confused devil-worshipper who sold his soul to santa.

dyslexic

orestes

Santa needs a book, and to have a few thousand people slaughtered in his name. That way kids won't stop believing in him.

Works for the rest of them

condra

LOL Dont sugar coat it, say what you really feel!

MrPudding

SDooM wrote: »

If you think about it there is more evidence for Santa- he keeps giving her stuff!

Exactly, can't fault her logic.

MrP

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't see why you are scoffing. By your own admission you once believed in God - and this when you where a grown man.

I certainly tried hard to believe that god existed since anything else wasn't an option where I grew up. And it takes a lot of thinking, especially if you're doing it on your own, to dispose of the subtle or sledge-hammer indoctrination that people in a position to do so, frequently assume is their duty to supply to kids.

But in retrospect, I'm not quite sure that I could ever say, hand on heart, that I sincerely believed that god existed as anything more substantial than the guilt that arose from my suspicion that he didn't.

Zillah

The Bollox wrote: »

why would Jesus give YORE MA as a gift?

Who let the riff raff in?

Sangre

Eglinton wrote: »

You're discussing the possibility of having children at some stage in your life. Your atheism is highlighted by whomever you're talking to, who proclaims that, seeing as you're not going to ask your kids to believe in god, then you may as well not make Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy a part of their lives either.

Firstly I wouldn't justify how I raise my children to anyone (except their mother).

Secondly atheism is a lack of belief in god, not everything. How you came to this position is irrelevant, it doesn't matter if it was through reason, logic or spite. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you can't have fanciful thoughts.

Thirdly Santa is awesome. I had great fun believing in Santa and xmas is definitely diminished now that my younger siblings are too old to believe. Let the children have their imagination and dreams. Let them have santa, fairies, princesses in towers, talking animals, magical beasts and games of quidditch. If I've raised my children well then I don't need to be the one to tell them they're not real, they can use their own reasoning and critical thinking.

Rev Hellfire

Its really only extremists on either camp which seem to get hung up on the Santa thing. Its got a very limited shelf life, all kids come to the realisation as to the truth of the matter. Either via their own discovery or through interactions with out kids.

Now I know some people equate it to a lie to the kids, but they way I look at it is, it's a game parents get to play with their kids for a short while. Both parties get enjoyment from it.


And if you're like me and asked why Santa didn't come to the kids down the road, just say they're bad people and Santa doesn't come to bad people (That's a joke, I wouldn't do that...)

Zillah

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its really only extremists on either camp which seem to get hung up on the Santa thing.

Yay I'm officially an extremist! Can I declare death sentences now?

Rev Hellfire

Zillah wrote: »

Yay I'm officially an extremist! Can I declare death sentences now?

There there, of course you can. I'll even help you build the death camps.

CiDeRmAn

Sure we've always used imaginative figures to plug holes in our knowledge, or conversely to create a sense of mystery, Santa is part of the latter, wouldn't childhood be miserable if we were restricted to using only literal truths?
I much prefer to instill a little wonder and magic in my 5 year olds life, with characters like Santa and the Easter Bunny being front and centre.
Time enough for Bill Hicks later!

gramlab

Xmas is a bit of harmless fun IMO.

Every year on xmas eve I get to thinking that I'd love to be 5 or 6 again for 24 hours.The alcohol would be a problem though.

rockbeer

gramlab wrote: »

The alcohol would be a problem though.

Didn't you enjoy getting drunk when you were 5 or 6 then? :pac:

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

Deeply flawed because of two assumptions:
1 - That children cannot comprehend reality.
2 - Initial dellusion is required to develop critical thinking.

Neither of those are a reason not to sell the Santa story to wide eyed kids.

I've yet to hear one, other than it goes against the principles of the adult involved to spin any kind of yarn to younglings. A yarn that offers as much enjoyment to the non-deluded parents involved, at that.

CerebralCortex

gramlab wrote: »

Xmas is a bit of harmless fun IMO.

I'm not so sure about that I find it can be very isolating and a lot of pressure is put on people to hold up an idea.

ShooterSF

Hmm. Being a young man in my mid20's with no intent to accept monogamy (another of societies wicked inventions) nevermind having kids this never struck me before. If someday I somehow end up with a kid I'd prob let him/her go along with the santa thing. Cant do any harm but how do you seperate his existence from jebus and co as I would never enforce a religion on my child.

Fanny Cradock

ShooterSF wrote: »

Hmm. Being a young man in my mid20's with no intent to accept monogamy (another of societies wicked inventions)

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

Dades

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

He's just read Catcher in the Rye.

Fanny Cradock

Our very own Holden! My tip is to always pay the prostitute more.

ShooterSF

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

Hmm I never thought it was my beliefs in monogamy that was going to be called upon! Now Im no expert in the history of human mating patterns. I simply meant that (western) society mostly expects people to enter monogamous relationships. Im open in my polygamous beliefs but most people quiz me about it, like yourself. Mostly in disbelief. Simply put my gut desires are never towards a monogamous relationship therefore why should I lie to myself and put myself in one?

Anywho I dont expect you to understand and it was only a comment to point out how unlikely it is for me to have a child, explaining why I hadn't given thought to the OP's issue before.

ChocolateSauce

I find one crucial difference is that when a child asks a parent "Is Santa real?" in a serious manner, the parent admits no. The same is not true when the child asks is god real. The difference isn't in the plausibility of Santa and god, but in whether or not the parents believe it.

ShooterSF

Dades wrote: »

He's just read Catcher in the Rye.

Im afraid I never have but I did recently listen to the new Guns N Roses album that has a cover of it on it

http://www.metrolyrics.com/catcher-in-the-rye-lyrics-guns-n-roses.html

Edit: I quite liked it by the way.

Rev. Kitchen

Whats all this about there being no santa ???

Am i not going to get my red bike ? will i just take the helmet back now so ?

gramlab

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that I find it can be very isolating and a lot of pressure is put on people to hold up an idea.

I mean harmless in the sense that it does a child no damage. True, its not a happy time for some and very difficult for others. I think people tend to be a bit nicer, more charitable etc around xmas. Probably should be all year round but thats another story.

Maybe I've got a rose tinted view looking back at my own childhood. The excitement, things you only got at that time of year etc

Gambler

Hehe this is actually a discussion I've had a few times with my wife. At some stage we are going to have kids and there has been a lot of discussion about santa and what to do.

I was raised knowing that there was no such thing as santa and personally I don't think it did me any harm at all. The closest to trouble we ever had as a result in school was when my sister refused to admit that Jesus was still alive?!?

We were always told growing up that it was important that we didn't tell any of the other children about Santa and that was fair enough. However from my wifes point of view she's horrified at my whole attitude to christmas (to me it's just like a bank holiday, a day off but with lots of repeated movies on tv..) and she thinks it's cruelty to children to not have santa (I still wonder how all the Jewish, Muslim etc. etc. kids cope with that cruelty but hey..)

When it comes to our kids I am willing to celebrate christmas (with santa) because I don't think it will do any irreparable damage but I will be raising them to be critical thinkers and to know that when the time comes they can choose what (if anything) they want to believe about god.