Local Elections 2009

Bards

not originally a FF voter, I am more of a swing voter and will vote strategically - how would you respond to this in way of voting?

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0460/D.0460.199601300112.html

Van

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

bump.

Just wondering. Has anyone been canvassed by a candidate yet?

I got a leaflet in the door from Seamus Ryan the other day. He is the only one I have seen around

Sully

Bards wrote: »

not originally a FF voter, I am more of a swing voter and will vote strategically - how would you respond to this in way of voting?

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0460/D.0460.199601300112.html

Im not sure I fully understand what you mean by that link and asking me to comment?!

Bards

Sully wrote: »

Im not sure I fully understand what you mean by that link and asking me to comment?!

Brendan Howlin is from Wexford and is a Labour TD. Even thought THe M9 was chosen as the main route from Waterford to Dublin. he wouldn't give it his backing, as he wanted the N11 to be the main route from Waterford to Dublin

This is the same Govt who moved the Director of the IDA S.E to Cork in the hope that wexford would get more jobs - go figure

largebottle

Sully you kicked this off , what are your preferences going into the locals...

largebottle

I think Labour will be the big winners in the next election ...FG will obviously do well but it will be interesting to see if the "Enda Factor" has an impact..

The Greens are in danger of being decimated by their association with FF.

Sully

Bards wrote: »

Brendan Howlin is from Wexford and is a Labour TD. Even thought THe M9 was chosen as the main route from Waterford to Dublin. he wouldn't give it his backing, as he wanted the N11 to be the main route from Waterford to Dublin

This is the same Govt who moved the Director of the IDA S.E to Cork in the hope that wexford would get more jobs - go figure

Okay but that doesnt explain why you voted FF out of all the other partys?!

largebottle wrote: »

Sully you kicked this off , what are your preferences going into the locals...

FG and Labour man myself. Ill be giving the greens a vote in the town council alright as I know the chap running and I think he will do very well if elected.

largebottle

fair enough I suppose, although I have always found that mix a little unusual myself.

Historiaclly FG would have been considered the party of big business and large farmers ...and would be considered further to the right of FF . Thus I never really got the link with Labour. Perhaps this link is a result of so many years in opposition... although a life long labour voter , I could never quiet bring myself to comply with the voting pacts and give 2nd pref's to the "blue shirts".... If they have to power share surely FF makes a better bedfellow!!

Sully

I support Labour and FG because they make a lot more sense and seem to be offering a decent alternative to FF/Greens. Greens haven't shown much potential and I firmly believe its time for a change and the current government are not doing a good job. I don't think labour would go into government with FF but I wouldn't hold out much hope!

SF wouldn't get a vote from me. Independents would but of course it depends who.

Harolds+

Whaaa...Fine Gael - 25%

they did nothing for this country, nevermind the economy in their history of "running" the country

Garret Fitzgerald. He has the face of an unmade bed.

Enda Kenny. He is the stunt double of Joe 90.

FG had more leaders than Israel had corrupt politicians!

I will vote for an Indo, Labour, Leftie and then Lesbian/Green Party

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

I support Labour and FG because they make a lot more sense and seem to be offering a decent alternative to FF/Greens. Greens haven't shown much potential and I firmly believe its time for a change and the current government are not doing a good job. I don't think labour would go into government with FF but I wouldn't hold out much hope!

SF wouldn't get a vote from me. Independents would but of course it depends who.

Labour certainly don't make any sense, and a Fine Gael/Labour Coalition means that Labour will water down Fine Gael's economic policies and make them next to useless - like they did in the 80s.

Joan Burton was on radio today and she hadn't a bulls notion what she was talking about. Listening to her you'd think that the Banking crisis was only happening in Ireland and that borrowing another couple of Billion would sort everything out.

We've seen the US and UK Governments pump hundreds of Billions into failed Banks, and then see no benefit. The Irish Government saw off the speculators by bringing in the guarantee, and has prevented a meltdown of the AIB and BOI by ensuring that Anglo doesn't go into liquidation. But they haven't had to put their hand in their pocket yet.

I was just watching Questions and Answers there a minute ago and Eamon Gilmore waffled and waffled when he was asked to rule out going in with FF. All he would say was that he was committed to getting them out, but he wouldn't commit to keeping them out. The audience were in stitches with his carry on.

As a Green I am naturally going to disagree with your contention that they haven't shown much potential. I think they have achieved way more than would have been expected. The changes they are making are mainly low key and technical - often relating to how the Officials go about their work behind the scenes - and they will be of huge benefit in changing for the better how the Government goes about doing things.

These are things that won't get them many votes, but they are things that have been neglected by previous Governments for precisely that reason.

We'd all love to see them making high profile changes in sexy areas, but a lot of that stuff is purely cosmetic. We've had decades of that type of photo-op politics, and it doesn't deliver at the end of the day.

But you can forget about Labour unless you want to see us return to the worst days of the 80s all over again.

Sully

Do I detect a bit of support for the current government from you Stan?!

The Labour issue is an interesting one. I have been a bit hesitant but feel that they offer more potential then anyone else bar some independents. Finance wise I wouldn't like them to have any control and I don't like the way Gilmore has yet again refused to answer directly the question. I get a sense of desperation from him. I felt that from what I heard from them they seemed to be doing a good job but ill be honest and haven't focused as much attention and notice the detail you commented on in regards to Joan. I just feel that they would be a good party for FG to go into government with as I just don't know if they can get in as a majority. I missed Q&A today but ill catch it online.

As regards to the Greens. The city has a green candidate who a people have a dislike for due to his take on planning applications. Labeled by local press and many websites as a "serial objector". Never met the chap personally but he probably gets more press attention then any other green candidate in the country! I don't think he has been doing that well in elections either. There time in government seems to be all talk and little action. It appears that they shout but are really powerless.

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

Do I detect a bit of support for the current government from you Stan?!

I'm delighted to have Green Ministers in there making important changes.

I would naturally prefer to have 86 Green TDs so that we could throw out all the legacy nonsense that the three big parties give out about in opposition, but don't bother to change when they have the power.

Most of the stuff the Greens are concentrating on is unsexy, technical, and of no interest to journalists, so the public don't get to hear about it. All we ever hear about is light bulbs and the claim that the new VRT rates caused the collapse of the global car industry.

We don't hear about how Dick Roche (and Martin Cullen before him) was trying to prevent County Councils from implementing better insulation standards in buildings because it would have been bad for Roadstone (a major Fianna Fail supporter). One of the first things John Gormley did was improve the standards by 40% straight away, and go to 60% next year. This measure will mean people will have to spend less on heating their homes, not just this year, but every year. Not very sexy, but it means more money in people's pockets (as will the low energy lightbulbs).

The Labour issue is an interesting one. I have been a bit hesitant but feel that they offer more potential then anyone else bar some independents. Finance wise I wouldn't like them to have any control and I don't like the way Gilmore has yet again refused to answer directly the question. I get a sense of desperation from him. I felt that from what I heard from them they seemed to be doing a good job but ill be honest and haven't focused as much attention and notice the detail you commented on in regards to Joan. I just feel that they would be a good party for FG to go into government with as I just don't know if they can get in as a majority. I missed Q&A today but ill catch it online.

Tony O'Reilly is getting a lot of heat from the Greens over the carry on with the Waterford Glass Pensions. A lot of the pro-Labour puff pieces we're seeing in the Independent at the moment are geared towards getting them to keep quiet on the issue. You can't win an Election in Ireland without the Independent. Just ask Bertie (or John Bruton).

As regards to the Greens. The city has a green candidate who a people have a dislike for due to his take on planning applications. Labeled by local press and many websites as a "serial objector". Never met the chap personally but he probably gets more press attention then any other green candidate in the country! I don't think he has been doing that well in elections either.

He might be a "serial objector", but his track record with An Bord Pleanala is much better than the planners in Waterford City Council. They keep allowing developments that breach their own City Development Plan, and McCann keeps calling them on it.

One of the local newspapers got up on his back, but look at where their office is. A local auctioneer got up on his back, but look at who his clients are. A local shopkeeper got up on his back, but look at how many times An Bord Pleanala overturned the City Council's decisions on that guys applications.

We don't hear the voices of the people living in these apartments whose clothes are going mouldy because there is no ventilation, or the people who have to move out when they have children because there is no storage space - which makes these communities transient and prevents the building up of a sense of community, which was a key objective of the City Development Plan.

If the Council didn't want McCann objecting all the time then all they had to do was change the City Development Plan to accommodate the developers - but that would have breached National and EU Planning Laws, so they tried to do it on the quiet, and McCann called them on it.

There time in government seems to be all talk and little action. It appears that they shout but are really powerless.

The problem I see is that they don't do enough shouting. Most people are unaware of, or uninterested in, the types of procedural and technical changes they are making (such as getting cross-party committees to propose legislation, or having backbench TDs with technical knowledge of an issue providing advice to Ministers, clamping down on the systematic waste of money, Etc.).

Sully

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I'm delighted to have Green Ministers in there making important changes.

I would naturally prefer to have 86 Green TDs so that we could throw out all the legacy nonsense that the three big parties give out about in opposition, but don't bother to change when they have the power.

I meant the FF part. Of course I know you are delighted to see the Greens in government

Most of the stuff the Greens are concentrating on is unsexy, technical, and of no interest to journalists, so the public don't get to hear about it. All we ever hear about is light bulbs and the claim that the new VRT rates caused the collapse of the global car industry.

We don't hear about how Dick Roche (and Martin Cullen before him) was trying to prevent County Councils from implementing better insulation standards in buildings because it would have been bad for Roadstone (a major Fianna Fail supporter). One of the first things John Gormley did was improve the standards by 40% straight away, and go to 60% next year. This measure will mean people will have to spend less on heating their homes, not just this year, but every year. Not very sexy, but it means more money in people's pockets (as will the low energy lightbulbs).


Tony O'Reilly is getting a lot of heat from the Greens over the carry on with the Waterford Glass Pensions. A lot of the pro-Labour puff pieces we're seeing in the Independent at the moment are geared towards getting them to keep quiet on the issue. You can't win an Election in Ireland without the Independent. Just ask Bertie (or John Bruton).

You are right. Not something you read about in the papers.

He might be a "serial objector", but his track record with An Bord Pleanala is much better than the planners in Waterford City Council. They keep allowing developments that breach their own City Development Plan, and McCann keeps calling them on it.

One of the local newspapers got up on his back, but look at where their office is. A local auctioneer got up on his back, but look at who his clients are. A local shopkeeper got up on his back, but look at how many times An Bord Pleanala overturned the City Council's decisions on that guys applications.

A lot of people would object and say that he goes that bit to far. He seems to be the watchman and objects to everything. Fair enough some of his points are fair but sometimes people get annoyed that he objects to the simplest of things. Its probably why he doesnt do very well in election.

We don't hear the voices of the people living in these apartments whose clothes are going mouldy because there is no ventilation, or the people who have to move out when they have children because there is no storage space - which makes these communities transient and prevents the building up of a sense of community, which was a key objective of the City Development Plan.

If the Council didn't want McCann objecting all the time then all they had to do was change the City Development Plan to accommodate the developers - but that would have breached National and EU Planning Laws, so they tried to do it on the quiet, and McCann called them on it.

If the council are that bad then why is he the only one fighting for it so hard? Why hasn't he done something else about it besides causing companies to avoid moving to Waterford or developing here? If the council are the problem (and note that An Board Pleanala dont always agree with him) then why isnt something being done to fix the root of the problem? You should have a look back over a few of the debates about him on this forum and it might give you an idea of why people disagree with his objections. Some posters made some good points rather then just the general waffle.

Off topic slightly, but the Board have been claimed to be negative towards Tramore with all the recent objections (iv noted two which I agree with and I am not familiar with the others) to the councils planning acceptance given to projects. Do you support the two councillors shouting the loudest about this? They have been fair to Waterford in terms of listening to the public, developers and objectors and coming to a decent conclusion but a few mins down the road and its claimed they are negative towards the town with no balance it would seem.

The problem I see is that they don't do enough shouting. Most people are unaware of, or uninterested in, the types of procedural and technical changes they are making (such as getting cross-party committees to propose legislation, or having backbench TDs with technical knowledge of an issue providing advice to Ministers, clamping down on the systematic waste of money, Etc.).

Well the recent controversy with one Green member sending out a letter talking about pulling out of government would indicate that things were not so well in the camp! Its a shame they dont shout as loud. Head over to the Politics forum for the bigger picture and you will see that Greens will equally get a hammering even though they are not the cause of the problems.

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

, but look at how many times An Bord Pleanala overturned the City Council's decisions on that guys applications.

...How Many.. from my understanding ABP - Waterford City Council planning decisions have one of the lowest overturn rate in the country

That man is a menance and has cost this City jobs

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

A lot of people would object and say that he goes that bit to far. He seems to be the watchman and objects to everything. Fair enough some of his points are fair but sometimes people get annoyed that he objects to the simplest of things. Its probably why he doesnt do very well in election.

I suppose the first thing to say is that he doesn't always "object". Much of what he does is commenting on elements of a proposal that don't meet the requirements of the City Development Plan, National Law, or EU Law. Some of it is black and white, and more of it is opinion or interpretation.

It is something he is passionate about, and in a sense he is right. These buildings are going to be around for decades, so why not get them right? We can see examples all over the place of developments that should never have been built, or where the quality of life of the people living there is diminished because a developer took shortcuts.

If the council are that bad then why is he the only one fighting for it so hard? Why hasn't he done something else about it besides causing companies to avoid moving to Waterford or developing here? If the council are the problem (and note that An Board Pleanala dont always agree with him) then why isnt something being done to fix the root of the problem? You should have a look back over a few of the debates about him on this forum and it might give you an idea of why people disagree with his objections. Some posters made some good points rather then just the general waffle.

What companies has he caused to avoid moving to Waterford?

Off topic slightly, but the Board have been claimed to be negative towards Tramore with all the recent objections (iv noted two which I agree with and I am not familiar with the others) to the councils planning acceptance given to projects. Do you support the two councillors shouting the loudest about this? They have been fair to Waterford in terms of listening to the public, developers and objectors and coming to a decent conclusion but a few mins down the road and its claimed they are negative towards the town with no balance it would seem.

As I said on Radio the other day, the two Councillors should have read the An Bord Pleanala judgement before they commented on it.

Here is an excerpt from page 9 of the report which pretty much states that the Councillors zoned the site incorrectly.

In terms of the principle of the proposal, one of the key considerations is whether
the proposal is appropriate on the zoning pertaining on the site. There are other
additional considerations which are set out below under this heading and also in
terms of the location of the site. In relation to the zoning, the site has been rezoned
since the first application was made on the site in 2004. The site is now zoned ‘C’ –
commercial - the purpose of which is to provide for commercial development.
Within this zoning retail convenience (corner/neigh. Shop; petrol outlet) and defined
at note 1 as referring to small-scale convenience goods shopping, essentially local or
neighbourhood shop. While I acknowledge that the retail guidelines state that
discount foodstores can anchor neighbourhood centres, the consideration in this
instance is the zoning objective pertaining on the site and the uses permitted in the
Plan. Discount retailers while selling convenience retail goods also sell comparison
goods ranging in type but including household goods. I would note that the landuse
matrix states that retail comparison goods are not permissible. The Board will note
that the matrix includes the words ‘goods’ and defines retail comparison goods, at
note 1, as durable goods including carpets, furniture and household goods. I would
also note that the landuse matrix states that supermarket is not permissible in the
commercial zoning. The retail impact assessment does not provide any breakdown of
the convenience/non-convenience split in the product range. It is likely, however,
that the comparison element is a small proportion and could arguably be considered
as ancillary to the convenience offer in store. However there would appear to be an
intention that the commercial zoning can accommodate small convenience retail
units rather than larger units with a broader product range.

Well the recent controversy with one Green member sending out a letter talking about pulling out of government would indicate that things were not so well in the camp! Its a shame they dont shout as loud. Head over to the Politics forum for the bigger picture and you will see that Greens will equally get a hammering even though they are not the cause of the problems.

The main difference between the Greens and the other Parties is that we are a policy driven Party, and the policy is developed by the membership, not just by the Elected Representatives, or Party employees (as happens with other Parties).

If the Oireachtas members don't keep delivering on the Green policies that were included in the Programme for Government, then the membership will instruct them to pull out. This is the point that Paul Gogarty was making in the letter.


I had a look at the Politics Forum and a lot of what goes on there is partisan hype, and most of it is speculation about the motives and capabilities of people from the opposing political party. I can think of better way of spending my time. :-)

Stan Nangle

Bards wrote: »

...How Many.. from my understanding ABP - Waterford City Council planning decisions have one of the lowest overturn rate in the country

I'll see if I can get the stats.

That man is a menance and has cost this City jobs

Can you elaborate on that?

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I suppose the first thing to say is that he doesn't always "object". Much of what he does is commenting on elements of a proposal that don't meet the requirements of the City Development Plan, National Law, or EU Law. Some of it is black and white, and more of it is opinion or interpretation.

It is something he is passionate about, and in a sense he is right. These buildings are going to be around for decades, so why not get them right? We can see examples all over the place of developments that should never have been built, or where the quality of life of the people living there is diminished because a developer took shortcuts.




What companies has he caused to avoid moving to Waterford?




As I said on Radio the other day, the two Councillors should have read the An Bord Pleanala judgement before they commented on it.

Here is an excerpt from page 9 of the report which pretty much states that the Councillors zoned the site incorrectly.






The main difference between the Greens and the other Parties is that we are a policy driven Party, and the policy is developed by the membership, not just by the Elected Representatives, or Party employees (as happens with other Parties).

If the Oireachtas members don't keep delivering on the Green policies that were included in the Programme for Government, then the membership will instruct them to pull out. This is the point that Paul Gogarty was making in the letter.


I had a look at the Politics Forum and a lot of what goes on there is partisan hype, and most of it is speculation about the motives and capabilities of people from the opposing political party. I can think of better way of spending my time. :-)

The development in Tramore falls under Waterford Co Co and not Waterford City Co.

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I'll see if I can get the stats.




Can you elaborate on that?

Pizza Hut - objected on grounds of smeel eminating from the premises - was laughed at by ABP, but due to unnecessary delay Pizza Hut pulled out

KRM (He was the ring leader along with WCTU who advised the residents how to go about cojecting)

He also Advised residents of Bowfield how to object to Water Haven, and will no doubt lodge an objection to ABP now that Waterford City Co. have given the go ahead

Need I mention Rthe Vendetta he had against ichard Dick in Farran Park about the bigger and better Centra that is now in place

How much money did Mulligans loose when he objected to the Development on John STreet/Waterfordside which again eventually got planning from ABP

have a look at this
http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2007/05/24/story25728.asp


If you really believe that no jobs were lost because of his objection that you are really naive

Sully

Bards wrote: »

The development in Tramore falls under Waterford Co Co and not Waterford City Co.

He was answering a question I asked which was unrelated to Mr. Mcann or Waterford City Council. It was a slight off topic question I wanted to see his opinion on so ignore that in terms of the argument for/against McCann

Van

Lets keep this thread on topic - Local Elections in Waterford. There are enough threads on this board and others regarding McCann.

Sully

Van wrote: »

Lets keep this thread on topic - Local Elections in Waterford. There are enough threads on this board and others regarding McCann.

Well McCann would be a green rep for Waterford so while it can be a topic on its own I assume it can be discussed under here if he is running for election?

dlofnep

Sinn Féin of course. My family had up until recently been FF supporters, but I'd say they are going to vote Sinn Féin this time around too.

dlofnep

longshanks wrote: »

while they may be hard working, joe kelly is an annoying mouthpiece from what i can see. and david cullinane loves waterford so much he decided to move to kilkenny.

As a SF supporter, I'm going to be biased about this - But Joe Kelly is one of the nicest men you'll meet. He's out every day working on behalf of people and never has a spare minute in his life.

As for David, he's another hard worker in Waterford.. If your biggest gripe with him is where he lives, I'd say he's doing well.

Odats

Davy Walsh will get my vote not because of the party he represents but the work he does for his constituents. I'm a vote for the person not for the party type. What I think is a disgrace is he never got Mayor despite being one of the longest servants on the council. imo the old Ward one is a stale constituency with the old reliables returned each time. Just out of curiousity I have no disrespect for David Cullinane but is it legally allowed to live in one county or ward and run for election in another ward. Giving an address whether it be your parents address or friends address as your place of residence isn't that lying. Is there grounds under government legislation to challenge the validity of the election result on this ground regardless of the no of votes a person obtained.

dlofnep

Would it change your vote for Davy Walsh if he lived outside of his ward?

Stan Nangle

dlofnep wrote: »

As for David, he's another hard worker in Waterford.. If your biggest gripe with him is where he lives, I'd say he's doing well.

I worked on an issue with David a couple of years ago and I found him to be an excellent Councillor. We were having a chat over a coffee after and a couple of other issues came up in conversation, including some that people had been trying to get answers to for years.

Following day I get a call from David with answers to all the various bits we had discussed.

Good guy. I hope he gets re-elected.

Sully

Dont know him personally but agree he does seem to do a lot of excellent work for Waterford. More so then other candidates from other partys I must say.

ctr

Hi Guys

Last time (in the GE)I voted Labour, Green, Workers Party, FG, FF & SF

Changes this time in the Locals.

If I lived in Ward 3 I'd vote Labour, Seamus Ryan, but my No. Two might go to Halligan.
Following with the WP (depending on who it is in ward 3) and then Culliane.

The Greens next (have they picked a Victim yet? ) and then FF (after anyone else on the ballot)

Oh I forgot I always in the Locals put the Christian Solidarity Nut, Waters, last It make me feel good.

Prediction in Ward 3 is (in order of 1st perferences)
Seamus Ryan (elected)
David Cullinane (elected)
John Halligan (elected)
Cha O'Neill (elected)

For that last seat I'm punting for Mary O'Halloran with Murphy losing out based on the national collapse of the FF vote and the Rise in the FG vote (note also the PD 100 or so votes are up to be won and FG are best placed to get them IMHO)

I'll predict the other wards later.

Nice thread and it stirred me out of my lurking phase

Ri na hEireann

Stan Nangle wrote: »

What companies has he caused to avoid moving to Waterford?

If the Oireachtas members don't keep delivering on the Green policies that were included in the Programme for Government, then the membership will instruct them to pull out. This is the point that Paul Gogarty was making in the letter.

You cannot be serious. Clearly McCann has been a contributing factor in many companies decision to not go ahead with developments in Waterford. See Bards' post above.To say otherwise is to be completely oblivious to the mans negative impact on the city.

Don't keep delivering? You seem to have your fingers in your ears and head in the sand. I do believe there is plenty of instruction from the grass roots to pull out....so much so that you've lost how many councillors in the past two or three days? Chris O'Leary gone from Cork city yes? Cllr Brownwen Maher gone too no? More to come no doubt. If Gormless had actually grown a pair and listened to the grassroots the Greens would have been gone after that so called debacle that was the budget. The same fate as the Progressive Democrats awaits.