Local Elections 2009

Stan Nangle

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Stan Nangle wrote: »

What companies has he caused to avoid moving to Waterford?

If the Oireachtas members don't keep delivering on the Green policies that were included in the Programme for Government, then the membership will instruct them to pull out. This is the point that Paul Gogarty was making in the letter.

You cannot be serious. Clearly McCann has been a contributing factor in many companies decision to not go ahead with developments in Waterford. See Bards' post above.To say otherwise is to be completely oblivious to the mans negative impact on the city.

I asked what Companies, and the only one mentioned was Pizza Hut. Not quite the cutting edge, high-tech, knowledge based, export focused Industry we are so badly in need of now is it?

I'm perfectly aware of the bad image McCann has in the media, and some of it isn't just hype and sour grapes, but there are many other reasons why there have been problems getting investment in Waterford. Why does nobody ever talk about those?

Don't keep delivering? You seem to have your fingers in your ears and head in the sand. I do believe there is plenty of instruction from the grass roots to pull out....so much so that you've lost how many councillors in the past two or three days? Chris O'Leary gone from Cork city yes? Cllr Brownwen Maher gone too no? More to come no doubt. If Gormless had actually grown a pair and listened to the grassroots the Greens would have been gone after that so called debacle that was the budget. The same fate as the Progressive Democrats awaits.

The issue isn't that they aren't delivering, the issue is that many of the things they are delivering are below the radar. They are mostly structural and technical issues that Green Activists have been butting their heads against for 20 years. Sorting these things out will make Government more effective, and accountable - to You.

These things aren't "sexy" from a media perspective, so they don't get covered, but they are important.

I'm not fully up to speed on Chris's problems, but they were more personality issues than policy issues.

I've been in contact with Bronwen since her resignation and also with some of her team (who are staying in the Greens). There is more to that story than appeared in the Media.

I'm not aware of any "instruction to pull out", although I have witnessed a number of Candidates expressing the view that the Ministers should be doing more to publicise the battles they are winning at Cabinet, to give the Green policies a higher profile, and to put some distance between the Greens and Fianna Fail. I think we'll see more of that going forward.


If the Greens had pulled out after the budget - and you are correct, it was a debacle - we would have a Fianna Fail/Labour Coalition today.

You will forgive me for my preference for John Gormley and Eamon Ryan over Joan Burton and Eamon Gilmore.


I think the fact that we stayed in was the demonstration that we "have a pair". The country is €20 Billion in the red. It will most likely hit €30 Billion by the end of the year. Sitting on the Opposition Benches and giving out about the failings of the Government all day, every day, would be a very comfortable place to be right about now - not having to put your neck on the line.

I want to see the Greens stick it out. I want to see Green policies implemented right through Government. I want to see the waste, the corruption and the incompetence gone out of Irish politics once and for all.

That isn't going to happen with the three Business as Usual Parties in Government - based on past experience anyway.


I'll be very happy if we share the fate of the PDs: It is 20 years since they first went into Government, they were in Government for 15 of those 20 years, and they had a huge influence on Government Policy (for better or worse) in that period.

20 Years of Green policies will see an end to pre-fab schools, and end to the balls-up that is the (PD created) HSE, and an end to sending billions of Euro a year to Russia (for Gas) and Saudi Arabia (okay, Norway) for Oil.

I can live with that!

Ri na hEireann

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I'm perfectly aware of the bad image McCann has in the media, and some of it isn't just hype and sour grapes, but there are many other reasons why there have been problems getting investment in Waterford. Why does nobody ever talk about those?

The issue isn't that they aren't delivering, the issue is that many of the things they are delivering are below the radar. They are mostly structural and technical issues that Green Activists have been butting their heads against for 20 years. Sorting these things out will make Government more effective, and accountable - to You.

I'm not fully up to speed on Chris's problems, but they were more personality issues than policy issues.

I've been in contact with Bronwen since her resignation and also with some of her team (who are staying in the Greens). There is more to that story than appeared in the Media.

If the Greens had pulled out after the budget - and you are correct, it was a debacle - we would have a Fianna Fail/Labour Coalition today.

You will forgive me for my preference for John Gormley and Eamon Ryan over Joan Burton and Eamon Gilmore.


I think the fact that we stayed in was the demonstration that we "have a pair". The country is €20 Billion in the red. It will most likely hit €30 Billion by the end of the year. Sitting on the Opposition Benches and giving out about the failings of the Government all day, every day, would be a very comfortable place to be right about now - not having to put your neck on the line.

I want to see the Greens stick it out. I want to see Green policies implemented right through Government. I want to see the waste, the corruption and the incompetence gone out of Irish politics once and for all.

That isn't going to happen with the three Business as Usual Parties in Government - based on past experience anyway.



20 Years of Green policies will see an end to pre-fab schools, and end to the balls-up that is the (PD created) HSE, and an end to sending billions of Euro a year to Russia (for Gas) and Saudi Arabia (okay, Norway) for Oil.

I can live with that!

People do talk about the other problems though, such as the lack of university status for WIT. Do the Green party ministers even know WIT exists? FG and Labour have upgrade as policy? Make sure to ask McCann on the doorsteps.

Well to every Tom, Dick and Harry is of the opinion the Greens are a joke in Government. You're abandoning your grassroots by staying in government with Fianna Fáil. Any good you do will be overshadowed by the incompetance and cronyism of FF. And the Green Parliamentary party's insistence on staying in the marital bed with the Soldiers of Destiny will only lead to a PD fate minus the 15 years in government. At this rate it will be 5 max. Typical that you mention Chris's personality issues considering that was just a smokescreen handed down by Gormless and crew. He left because,as said by himself on RTE radio..the party seems willing to stay in government "no matter what" and that's that. You can believe whatever HQ tells you to keep you happy but I'll believe the mans own words.

Cllr Bronwencame out originally stating she was considering her position? Why? Well she's of the opinion that they're now a mere "centrist light green party". So for all your praise of their off the radar achievements one of your high profile members considers this approach as "centrist light green" politics. Hardly the big change some Green members would like to believe. I do genuinely feel sorry for the grassroot members who have either been deserted by the leadership of the Greens but also the grassroots like you who have been duped by Gormless and co. The Green legacy in Government - despite what you wish to believe - will be VRT and dodgy lightbulbs that mean you have to piss in the dark or wait for them to warm up.

So the budget was a debacle. What about collective cabinet responsibility? Why did the Green TD's give Minister Lenihan and his wonder-budget a standing ovation? The applauded that "patriotic call to duty".

It's a mere guess that Lab would have marched across to FF but perhaps they would have. I would imagine there would have been more chance of a general election but who knows.

Those sitting on the Opposition benches are more than willing to put hteir necks on the line and they're being quite voiciferous about it. At least they look like they care and are not supporting the gombeen politics of Fianna Fáil.

20 years of green policies in gov with FF would see 20 years of green supported FF policies and nothing more. What are ye doing about the HSE at the moment. Sweet F all.

Bards

Not to mention McCann's stance on WIT not being re-designated University of the S.E

Greens opposition of Motorway from Waterford to Dublin - Thanks goodness this is being built, but is one of the major blockers of jobs comming to this region.

What has McCann and the Greens done or plan to do to attract inward investment to the S.E Region?

Increasing Carbon taxes is one sure way that they will not attract investment, as if our tiny little Island can cure the World's reliance on carbon fuels.All that will happen is drive up the cost of doing business and business' will move to lower cost economies

Unless that is the Greens plan all along. - Less business, means less people going to work which means less carbon emitions etc etc

Stan Nangle

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

People do talk about the other problems though, such as the lack of university status for WIT. Do the Green party ministers even know WIT exists? FG and Labour have upgrade as policy? Make sure to ask McCann on the doorsteps.

If FG have their way WIT will stay an IT and the University Campus will go to Carlow & Kilkenny.

If Labour have their way it will be Carlow and Wexford that get the University Campus.

We've seen over the years where Waterford comes in the FG/Lab scheme of things.

Well to every Tom, Dick and Harry is of the opinion the Greens are a joke in Government. You're abandoning your grassroots by staying in government with Fianna Fáil. Any good you do will be overshadowed by the incompetance and cronyism of FF. And the Green Parliamentary party's insistence on staying in the marital bed with the Soldiers of Destiny will only lead to a PD fate minus the 15 years in government. At this rate it will be 5 max.

How come I'm hearing something different on the doors?

The people voted in 2007 to have a Government led by Fianna Fail. The choice was FF/Lab or FF/Grn. The voters knew all about Fianna Fail's track record at that stage, but they chose not to have Fine Gael lead the Government.

The Green TDs were elected on a platform to get Green policies implemented. They can't get policies implemented if they are in opposition. In what way would they be representing the people who voted for them if they pulled out?

The vast majority of people who are giving out about the Greens would never vote for the Greens in the first place.

Typical that you mention Chris's personality issues considering that was just a smokescreen handed down by Gormless and crew. He left because,as said by himself on RTE radio..the party seems willing to stay in government "no matter what" and that's that. You can believe whatever HQ tells you to keep you happy but I'll believe the mans own words.

The issues which led to Chris's resignation are based on an ongoing difference of opinion within the Cork group. There was mediation going on for a long period of time, but it failed to achieve an agreed result. This is common knowledge.

Cllr Bronwencame out originally stating she was considering her position? Why? Well she's of the opinion that they're now a mere "centrist light green party". So for all your praise of their off the radar achievements one of your high profile members considers this approach as "centrist light green" politics. Hardly the big change some Green members would like to believe. I do genuinely feel sorry for the grassroot members who have either been deserted by the leadership of the Greens but also the grassroots like you who have been duped by Gormless and co. The Green legacy in Government - despite what you wish to believe - will be VRT and dodgy lightbulbs that mean you have to piss in the dark or wait for them to warm up.

With the greatest respect, I've been in contact with Bronwen since she made her announcement, so I think I am in a better position to know what Bronwen is doing than you are.

She is right about the "Centrist Light Green Party". With 4.69% of the First Preferences in 2007 the Government does not have a mandate for "Hard Green" policies.

However, this is changing rapidly now that Obama has brought many of the "harder" Green policies to centre stage. Many of the things that were not up for discussion when the PfG was being negotiated are now coming onto the radar, and as they are seen to be working in the USA they will become more acceptable here.

So the budget was a debacle. What about collective cabinet responsibility? Why did the Green TD's give Minister Lenihan and his wonder-budget a standing ovation? The applauded that "patriotic call to duty".

Honest question: What would you have done?

You are in Government. You need to have a good relationship with the Minister of Finance so that you can get money for building Water Treatment Plants and Sewage Treatment Plants (John Gormley), or to roll out Broadband and a national insulation programme (Eamon Ryan). Do you upstage him in his most important set-piece of the year, or do you fight your battles in private?

It's a mere guess that Lab would have marched across to FF but perhaps they would have. I would imagine there would have been more chance of a general election but who knows.

Labour would march across tomorrow. Listen to every interview that Eamon Gilmore does. When asked if he rules out crossing the chamber he waffles. He had the audience in stitches on Q&A last week.

Those sitting on the Opposition benches are more than willing to put hteir necks on the line and they're being quite voiciferous about it. At least they look like they care and are not supporting the gombeen politics of Fianna Fáil.

In what way are they putting their necks on the line?

They don't have any responsibility. All they do is criticise, but they never put forward alternatives.

Eamon Ryan, when he was in Opposition, brought over some members of the Danish Government to do a presentation to the Joint Oireachtas Commitee on Energy to outline how they developed a cross-party, long term, Energy Policy for Denmark. This type of long term strategy allows businesses to plan for the future when making capital intensive investments in renewable energy technologies without having to worry if an incoming Government might undermine their investment. (Greens call for cross-party energy goals )

Labour and Fine Gael refused to participate.

They said that they are the opposition, and their job is to oppose.

They are obviously very good at this role because the electorate keep reappointing them

When he became Minister for Energy, Eamon Ryan approached FG and Lab again to see if they would work on a long-term strategy. Again they said No.

We have major problems coming down the road in relation to oil and gas supplies. Fine Gael and Labour are not prepared to put their shoulder to the wheel to ensure that we have a plan to deal with this - never mind "put their necks on the line".

20 years of green policies in gov with FF would see 20 years of green supported FF policies and nothing more. What are ye doing about the HSE at the moment. Sweet F all.

If you want to see Green Policies implemented, join the Party and help us get more TDs elected.

20 Green TDs would see a Green Health Minister (probably Eamon Ryan).

We'd see the PD "reforms" turned on their backside very quickly, believe me.

Stan Nangle

Bards wrote: »

Greens opposition of Motorway from Waterford to Dublin - Thanks goodness this is being built, but is one of the major blockers of jobs comming to this region.

The Motorway is an overly expensive vanity project.

It cost (at least) twice as much as a road built to carry the forecasted volume of traffic. (7.5mill/km vs 3mill/km using 2002 prices)

I can think of much better things to have spent that money on - Radiotherapy and school buildings being two obvious contenders.

Lets look at the stats.

Future Traffic Forecasts 2002-2040 (2003)

National Roads and Traffic Flow 2004 (2005)

I considered those traffic projections to be extremely optimistic back then, and that was in relation to justifying the building of a Moone-Timolin style road the whole way to Waterford.

The Motorway is being built to accommodate the volumes of traffic that pass through Naas on a daily basis. We are never going to see those volumes between Waterford and Kilcullen.

Now I do appreciate the value of having a Motorway to Waterford, don't get me wrong, but the question does need to be asked - could we have spent that extra Billion (give or take) on more worthwhile projects?

Have a read of this, and make up your own mind. M9 motorway would be a waste of money

What has McCann and the Greens done or plan to do to attract inward investment to the S.E Region?

Lots!

I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate to go into details in a forum like this, but I've personally brought in over 7.5 million of Investment (over 4 million of which was sourced from the USA), I was involved in assisting with the rescue of one prominent local firm which had gotten into difficulties, and I am currently working to expedite the development of Renewable Energy projects in the City and County. (Here's one I prepared earlier - Booklet gives practical energy-saving advice )

Increasing Carbon taxes is one sure way that they will not attract investment, as if our tiny little Island can cure the World's reliance on carbon fuels.All that will happen is drive up the cost of doing business and business' will move to lower cost economies

With respect, you obviously don't understand either the difficulties we are facing in relation to energy, or how a carbon tax works.

It is probably better dealt with in a separate thread, but here is a good primer: Nate Hagens' review of the International Energy Agency's (IEA) long awaited annual World Energy Outlook (WEO) for 2008

Unless that is the Greens plan all along. - Less business, means less people going to work which means less carbon emitions etc etc

I'll pass on responding to that sort of nonsense.

Roanmore

It's been reported on another website that John Mullane is running for FG in ward 2. I don't know know how true it is considering the election is in June which is right in the middle of the Championship season (maybe he'll wear a Vote for John on his jersey )

Ri na hEireann

Stan Nangle wrote: »

If FG have their way WIT will stay an IT and the University Campus will go to Carlow & Kilkenny.

How come I'm hearing something different on the doors?

The people voted in 2007 to have a Government led by Fianna Fail. The choice was FF/Lab or FF/Grn. The voters knew all about Fianna Fail's track record at that stage, but they chose not to have Fine Gael lead the Government.

The Green TDs were elected on a platform to get Green policies implemented. They can't get policies implemented if they are in opposition. In what way would they be representing the people who voted for them if they pulled out?

The vast majority of people who are giving out about the Greens would never vote for the Greens in the first place.

With the greatest respect, I've been in contact with Bronwen since she made her announcement, so I think I am in a better position to know what Bronwen is doing than you are.

She is right about the "Centrist Light Green Party". With 4.69% of the First Preferences in 2007 the Government does not have a mandate for "Hard Green" policies.

However, this is changing rapidly now that Obama has brought many of the "harder" Green policies to centre stage. Many of the things that were not up for discussion when the PfG was being negotiated are now coming onto the radar, and as they are seen to be working in the USA they will become more acceptable here.

Honest question: What would you have done?

You are in Government. You need to have a good relationship with the Minister of Finance so that you can get money for building Water Treatment Plants and Sewage Treatment Plants (John Gormley), or to roll out Broadband and a national insulation programme (Eamon Ryan). Do you upstage him in his most important set-piece of the year, or do you fight your battles in private?

Labour would march across tomorrow. Listen to every interview that Eamon Gilmore does. When asked if he rules out crossing the chamber he waffles. He had the audience in stitches on Q&A last week.




In what way are they putting their necks on the line?

They don't have any responsibility. All they do is criticise, but they never put forward alternatives.

We have major problems coming down the road in relation to oil and gas supplies. Fine Gael and Labour are not prepared to put their shoulder to the wheel to ensure that we have a plan to deal with this - never mind "put their necks on the line".

If you want to see Green Policies implemented, join the Party and help us get more TDs elected.

20 Green TDs would see a Green Health Minister (probably Eamon Ryan).

We'd see the PD "reforms" turned on their backside very quickly, believe me.

FG, particularly Brian Hayes, has confirmed a University for the South-East located at Waterford Institute of Technology will be part of the next FG manifesto. Like it or not FG has promised it. Greens haven't so your claim that the University would be located in Carlow/Kilkenny is unfounded. Both Phil Hogan and Sen.John Paul Phelan are in favour of the policy.

I don't know what you're hearing in Tramore but in my own experience there's a general dislike for the D4 Green politics we're seeing at the moment. What I hear on the doorsteps is 80% directed towards FF of course but anything mentioned about the Greens is generally negative.

People didn't know about Cowen's incompetence,the full details of Bertiegate let alone Brian Lenihan steering our economy into the ground. In any case most people who would have voted green in 07 were under the impression they were going to go into Governemnt with FG and Lab not FF. Now I totally understand the eventual decision to go in with FF but I cannot understand the persistence of staying in when it must be clear to you that it's doing the Greens no favours nor is the Green party nothing more than a yes-man for the Fianna Fáil party.

If they pulled out the likes of Cllr O'Leary, Bronwen and McKenna would be represented. The 14% of membership that voted not to go in with FF plus the sinificant number (I'd imagine) who wish to pull out now. By the way I would have voted No.2 Green in 2007 had Brendan not been the candidate.

She's right indeed. Centrist light in that they don't have a say on anything other than the two Ministerial portfolios and even then they have to implement light policies.

So you're saying Ireland has to wait for a country with an environmental track record like the US to implement hard green policies...Come on give me a break. I'd love to see the Greens use the current state of the Government to try implement those policies.

What would I have done? Well if I was in a cabinet as Gormley and Ryan are I would have refused to accept the budget. Used a bit of persuasiveness. It's common knowledge that the Greens just bowed over and took it. What input did John and Eamonn have to the budget other than the areas of their portfolios?

Perhaps they would perhaps they wouldn't. His performance on questions and answers may be down to his own dillusionment that Labour are going to gain 40-odd seats in the next election.

Well you'll at least agree with me Gilmore and Kenny are more than happy to go into Government at the moment even given the state of the economy. Lab and FG refuse to participate, in that the Government won't give them a say. FG came out the other day and said;

"In the week that we celebrated the first sitting of the Dáil the Government must ensure that members of the Oireachtas, who represent citizens and taxpayers, are involved in any economic rescue plans. This must start with a presentation by Government to the Dáil of all the cutback options considered, together with a cost-benefit assessment of the impact of each option on front-line services. This should include the publication of 2009 Annual Output Statements by each Department, before and after the proposed cutbacks. What must not happen is for Government to repeat the mistakes of the October Budget: protecting the big public sector bureaucracies like the HSE and FÁS, while cutting back on front-line services in health, education and training and on the vital investments in infrastructure needed for economic recovery”.

If FF can prove they're willing to be more transparent with their plans for economic recovery (if they have any) then FG will try be more understandingf and less advesarial.

Don't get me wrong prior to the 07 election I liked the Greens. My view is changing however. I'd like Green Ministers in a FG led Government because I think they could genuinely implement some real changes. But as it stand ye will be destroyed by the electorate because of your part to play in this shambolic FF led Gov.

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

The Motorway is an overly expensive vanity project.

It cost (at least) twice as much as a road built to carry the forecasted volume of traffic. (7.5mill/km vs 3mill/km using 2002 prices)

I can think of much better things to have spent that money on - Radiotherapy and school buildings being two obvious contenders.

Lets look at the stats.

Future Traffic Forecasts 2002-2040 (2003)

National Roads and Traffic Flow 2004 (2005)

I considered those traffic projections to be extremely optimistic back then, and that was in relation to justifying the building of a Moone-Timolin style road the whole way to Waterford.

The Motorway is being built to accommodate the volumes of traffic that pass through Naas on a daily basis. We are never going to see those volumes between Waterford and Kilcullen.

Now I do appreciate the value of having a Motorway to Waterford, don't get me wrong, but the question does need to be asked - could we have spent that extra Billion (give or take) on more worthwhile projects?
.

....But why pick on Waterford, I have demonstrated in other threads that vast sections of the M7 (Dublin Limerick Road ) M6 (Dublin Galway) M8 (Dublin Cork) have lower AADT than sections of the present N9 (at loughlinbridge). How come the Greens are not advocating that their vanity projects (your words) be halted and the money be spent elsewhere

why should one City & Region be singled out to suffer an inferrior road to the capital.

Stan Nangle

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

FG, particularly Brian Hayes, has confirmed a University for the South-East located at Waterford Institute of Technology will be part of the next FG manifesto. Like it or not FG has promised it. Greens haven't so your claim that the University would be located in Carlow/Kilkenny is unfounded. Both Phil Hogan and Sen.John Paul Phelan are in favour of the policy.

I'm quite sure JP would favour Waterford, but Hogan will want it in Kilkenny - regardless of what he might say, and if for nothing else than to spite JP.

I don't know what you're hearing in Tramore but in my own experience there's a general dislike for the D4 Green politics we're seeing at the moment. What I hear on the doorsteps is 80% directed towards FF of course but anything mentioned about the Greens is generally negative.

90% being negative about the Greens is okay by me. We only get between 4% and 7% of the vote.

The D4 nonsense is peddled by our opponents, and patently is not true.

People didn't know about Cowen's incompetence,the full details of Bertiegate let alone Brian Lenihan steering our economy into the ground. In any case most people who would have voted green in 07 were under the impression they were going to go into Governemnt with FG and Lab not FF. Now I totally understand the eventual decision to go in with FF but I cannot understand the persistence of staying in when it must be clear to you that it's doing the Greens no favours nor is the Green party nothing more than a yes-man for the Fianna Fáil party.

Cowen's "incompetence" is a shock to most people, but Lenihan is doing okay for someone without a Finance background (I would have left him at Justice and put Dermot Ahern in Finance).

I disagree that they are steering the economy into the ground: The complete collapse of the global banking system is the cause of the problem. It is like an airplane losing both its engines. All the Irish Government can do is try and land the plane safely, like that guy in New York last week.

When you look at the scale of the meltdown in other Countries, and the amount of taxpayers' money that other Governments have thrown into the black hole of Balance Sheet write-downs, you have to admit that the strategy employed by the Irish Government has been above average.

We have managed to keep our Banks solvent through sleight of hand - even though our Banks have problems that many other Countries don't have. We haven't had to put in any taxpayers' money - yet.


The Greens would have preferred to go in with FG and Labour, but FG and Labour didn't come up with the seats. Enda Kenny was perceived to have lost the Leaders Debate (as a result of an excellent PR strategy by FF HQ in the immediate aftermath) and that cost them the Election.


Why would the Greens pull out now? We have until 2012 (2014 with a simple Dail vote) to turn around this (incorrect in my view) perception that we are a "mudguard". That is plenty of time.

Your alternative would be painted as cowardice - the Greens had the chance to prove themselves in Government, but they bottled it. There would be no coming back from that one.

As I said upthread, we have FF/Grn until 2012, or we could have FF/Lab until 2012. I know which one I prefer.

If they pulled out the likes of Cllr O'Leary, Bronwen and McKenna would be represented. The 14% of membership that voted not to go in with FF plus the sinificant number (I'd imagine) who wish to pull out now. By the way I would have voted No.2 Green in 2007 had Brendan not been the candidate.

Why would anybody want to pull out now? We were elected on a policy platform. We cannot implement that policy platform if we are in opposition. Climate Change, Peak Oil and the need to restructure our economy are all issues that have to be dealt with NOW. Waiting until 2012 is not an option.

Show me where either FG or Labour have a policy to mitigate the effects of Peak Oil. Show me a speech from anybody in either Party where they even refer to Peak Oil.

Eamon Ryan has presented at ASPO Conventions, he has Chaired sessions at ASPO Conventions, and he has consistently called for us to get stuck into the issue of Energy Security.

She's right indeed. Centrist light in that they don't have a say on anything other than the two Ministerial portfolios and even then they have to implement light policies.

Nonsense!

For years Fianna Fail Environment Ministers prevented improvements in Insulation Standards that would have had a negative effect on the Fianna Fail Building Materials Division Roadstone. A number of County Councils (usually those with Green Councillors) began to implement rules that would have required developers to meet a standard 40% better than the National Standard (Part L of the Building Regulations). Dick Roche actively sought to prevent Councils from doing this.

John Gormley arrived in the Custom House and with the stroke of a pen upgraded Part L by 40%, and it upgrades to 60% next year.

There are lots of other measures, including many in other Departments, that I could mention, but either you see them as positive steps along the road to achieving the PfG, or you see them as inconsequential decoration on the mudguard. I'm happy to go out knocking on doors telling people that they are positive steps, and I wouldn't do that if I didn't believe it.

So you're saying Ireland has to wait for a country with an environmental track record like the US to implement hard green policies...Come on give me a break. I'd love to see the Greens use the current state of the Government to try implement those policies.

I'm saying that the 90% of people who don't value Green policies are going to see the US economy being turned around by Green policies. This is going to make it much easier to sell Green Policies at Cabinet.

What would I have done? Well if I was in a cabinet as Gormley and Ryan are I would have refused to accept the budget. Used a bit of persuasiveness. It's common knowledge that the Greens just bowed over and took it. What input did John and Eamonn have to the budget other than the areas of their portfolios?

There may be a perception out there that they "bowed over and took it", but the reality is slightly different.

Perhaps they [Labour] would perhaps they wouldn't. His performance on questions and answers may be down to his own dillusionment that Labour are going to gain 40-odd seats in the next election.

I've €20 that says Labour will lose seats at the next General Election. They will be squashed by Fianna Fail and Fine Gael.

Well you'll at least agree with me Gilmore and Kenny are more than happy to go into Government at the moment even given the state of the economy. Lab and FG refuse to participate, in that the Government won't give them a say.

Lab and FG are great at telling us what the Government are doing wrong, but neither of them tell us what they would do different.

Joan Burton has some mad notion that we should borrow tens of Billions to keep the Public Service in the comfort to which it has become accustomed, but she never tells us who will lend us money for such a fools errand, nor how we are going to pay it back.

If FF can prove they're willing to be more transparent with their plans for economic recovery (if they have any) then FG will try be more understandingf and less advesarial.

If FG want to do a new Tallaght Strategy, I'm sure neither Brian Cowen nor John Gormley would have a problem with that. Richard Bruton at Finance and Reilly at Health.

That's a Government that could get us through the difficulties we are going to face in the next three years.

Don't get me wrong prior to the 07 election I liked the Greens. My view is changing however. I'd like Green Ministers in a FG led Government because I think they could genuinely implement some real changes. But as it stand ye will be destroyed by the electorate because of your part to play in this shambolic FF led Gov.

Once Lehman Brothers collapsed, every Government in the World became shambolic. Recovering from the damage of that one ill-judged move is going to take a decade.

Stan Nangle

Bards wrote: »

....But why pick on Waterford,

Because you specifically mentioned Waterford.

I have demonstrated in other threads that vast sections of the M7 (Dublin Limerick Road ) M6 (Dublin Galway) M8 (Dublin Cork) have lower AADT than sections of the present N9 (at loughlinbridge). How come the Greens are not advocating that their vanity projects (your words) be halted and the money be spent elsewhere

The land was bought, and the Contracts were signed before the Greens came into Government.

Our opposition to the wasting of money on an overspecified Motorway Network are well documented and go back to the time the NRA's plans for a more realistic network, based on projected vehicle numbers,, were thrown out.

why should one City & Region be singled out to suffer an inferrior road to the capital.

I never said that it should!

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Because you specifically mentioned Waterford.

This is a Waterford Forum..., Why would I mention Dublin/Cork/Limerick in a Waterford Forum

The land was bought, and the Contracts were signed before the Greens came into Government.

oh how convenient

Our opposition to the wasting of money on an overspecified Motorway Network are well documented and go back to the time the NRA's plans for a more realistic network, based on projected vehicle numbers,, were thrown out..

pre Celtic Tiger Years

BlaasForRafa

Stan Nangle wrote: »

The Motorway is an overly expensive vanity project.

Stop parroting the party line, it'll get you little traction in Waterford. The road to Waterford, especially through Kilkenny was an absolute disgrace. Perhaps you've never had to wait behind an artic trying to negotiate the sinuous bends of Thomastown.

It was a third world road in a first world country and it did nothing to benefit Waterford.

Stan Nangle

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Stop parroting the party line, it'll get you little traction in Waterford. The road to Waterford, especially through Kilkenny was an absolute disgrace. Perhaps you've never had to wait behind an artic trying to negotiate the sinuous bends of Thomastown.

It was a third world road in a first world country and it did nothing to benefit Waterford.

And where exactly have I disagreed with that point?

dlofnep

What exactly is your alternative?

Stan Nangle

dlofnep wrote: »

What exactly is your alternative?

How do you mean?

One section is complete and the other three are well under way and should be finished sometime next year.

Ri na hEireann

I'm eating my words at the moment anyway. Green support up 3% to 8% in tommorrow's SBP Red C poll.

Trotter

Green Party Broken Promises

28 Seconds into that video please ladies and gentlemen.... pre election muck from the greens showing their spineless and new found fondness for the ministerial life.

Class sizes increased on their watch with lots of other scandalous cuts. That effects every child in Waterford one way or the other.

I'll be trying very hard in these local elections to make the point that I want this government out. To do that through voting at local level is difficult, but I consider it practice for when the FF/Greenies come knocking on my door at the next General.

Besides.. McCann has done so much damage to Waterford's reputation that I couldnt vote for him. I wont vote FF at local level either, and Im not keen on FG. That leaves labour and independents really for me to choose from.

Stan Nangle

How would you have done things differently if you were in Government?

Trotter

Stan Nangle wrote: »

How would you have done things differently if you were in Government?

I'd have ringfenced education and made sure that the youngest children in this country didnt suffer for the the actions of the gang in the Galway tent.

Look at the chap in FÁS who was booted.. the government gave him a bold boy look for a few mins and then let him retire on a 6 figure pension.

Any idea what I could buy for a primary school full of kids for the cost of a manicure in Florida?

There are many things I'd have done differently.. but all of them would have had the premise that no child would suffer in school from these cuts.

I'm not going to get drawn in on a debate on the Greens' performance. In my opinion, they have acted in a disgusting manner, lacking the guts to call FF, the builders party, to account.

I'll be voting labour and independent in the local elections because FF/Greens cannot be trusted.

Stan Nangle

Trotter wrote: »

I'd have ringfenced education and made sure that the youngest children in this country didnt suffer for the the actions of the gang in the Galway tent.

And where would you have gotten the money from?

The Education budget was increased by €300m this year. Every other Department, except Health and Social Welfare were cut.

Where would you have gotten the extra money from, Health or Social Welfare?

Look at the chap in FÁS who was booted.. the government gave him a bold boy look for a few mins and then let him retire on a 6 figure pension.

As they were obliged to do under Contract Law.

Any idea what I could buy for a primary school full of kids for the cost of a manicure in Florida?

Yep. I am Chairman of a Charity that runs a Childcare Centre. I am very aware of the costs of childcare.

There are many things I'd have done differently.. but all of them would have had the premise that no child would suffer in school from these cuts.

Like what.

It's all very well saying you'd spend more on Education (so would I), but where do you propose to get the money from?

That's the bit you seem to forget.

I'm not going to get drawn in on a debate on the Greens' performance. In my opinion, they have acted in a disgusting manner, lacking the guts to call FF, the builders party, to account.

They hold FF to account every day. They are making changes to how Government is run every day. Most of the stuff they are doing is below the radar of the media, but it is making fundamentally important changes right at the heart of the Civil Service.

I'll be voting labour and independent in the local elections because FF/Greens cannot be trusted.

And Labour can be?

I'm old enough to remember the Country after Labour in Government. I remember when you could walk into any Pub or Supermarket in London and meet someone you went to school with, or to college with.

We are in a new situation now. We need new ideas, and we need long term thinking. I'm only seeing that in one Party.

Ri na hEireann

Stan Nangle wrote: »

We are in a new situation now. We need new ideas, and we need long term thinking. I'm only seeing that in one Party.

What about the short term? Who's going to sort out this mess. It certainly won't be the Green party and Fianna Fáil.

Stan Nangle

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

What about the short term? Who's going to sort out this mess. It certainly won't be the Green party and Fianna Fáil.

Who will it be then?

The Greens and FF are in Government until 2012. But just suppose there was an election next week, what are Labour and Fine Gael offering?

They are great at telling us what the Government are doing wrong, but whenever they are asked what they would do different they go all coy and say "but we're the opposition, we don't have to come up with solutions. Our job is to oppose".

That is like saying "Vote for us, cos we're not them".

That is not a credible position.

All three big Parties are guilty of short term thinking. That is what got us into this mess.

We borrowed Billions of Euro, and we spent Billions of Euro - holidays, cars, overpriced houses, botox, flat screen tvs, apartments in Spain.

But now we have spent it all, we can't borrow more, and we still have to pay back what we borrowed before. But without new money being lent into the system, where is the demand going to come from to generate the jobs to generate the wages to pay back the loans?

Nobody ever thought about that - in the three big parties.

Bards

Increasing Carbon taxes is certantly not the way to reduce costs on business so that they can create jobs. Ireland is a small open trading economy and although promoting Green Energy & reducing our carbon footprint is hip/cool, it will not get us out of the mess we find ourselves in, but will in fact make us all less competitive in the World Economy.

We should only start to increase Carbon Taxes when the likes of America, China, Russia, India do the same, so we have a level playing field, otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

At the end of the day - Ireland alone cannot save Planet Earth!!

Stan Nangle

Bards wrote: »

Increasing Carbon taxes is certantly not the way to reduce costs on business so that they can create jobs. Ireland is a small open trading economy and although promoting Green Energy & reducing our carbon footprint is hip/cool, it will not get us out of the mess we find ourselves in, but will in fact make us all less competitive in the World Economy.

You raise a couple of interesting points.

Reducing our carbon footprint is not about being hip/cool, it is about preventing runaway climate change.

Have a read of this article about the Stern Report to get a quick overview of the situation.

Wikipedia wrote:

The Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change is a 700-page report released on October 30, 2006 by economist Lord Stern of Brentford for the British government, which discusses the effect of climate change and global warming on the world economy. Although not the first economic report on global warming, it is significant as the largest and most widely known and discussed report of its kind.

Its main conclusions are that one percent of global gross domestic product (GDP) per annum is required to be invested in order to avoid the worst effects of climate change, and that failure to do so could risk global GDP being up to twenty percent lower than it otherwise might be. Stern’s report suggests that climate change threatens to be the greatest and widest-ranging market failure ever seen, and it provides prescriptions including environmental taxes to minimize the economic and social disruptions. He states, "our actions over the coming few decades could create risks of major disruption to economic and social activity, later in this century and in the next, on a scale similar to those associated with the great wars and the economic depression of the first half of the 20th century."In June 2008 Stern increased the estimate to 2% of GDP to account for faster than expected climate change.

A carbon tax does not increase costs on businesses, it changes the way costs are structured. The Greens are arguing that PRSI should be reduced to compensate for the carbon tax. The ESRI agree.

A carbon tax will make it more cost effective for businesses to either reduce energy consumption (increasing competitiveness) or use indigenuous energy sources (keeping money in the Irish economy, and growing new businesses).

We should only start to increase Carbon Taxes when the likes of America, China, Russia, India do the same, so we have a level playing field, otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

I strongly disagree. Ireland relies on imported fossil fuel for 90% of its energy requirements. The EU average is 50%. This is a major barrier to competitiveness.

We need to develop an indigenuous energy sector and keep the money in Ireland. This will also protect us from increasing oil and gas prices.

If we go with the Carbon Tax first, we will have first mover advantage. Our businesses will be optimised for the new system at a time when the others are struggling to adapt to it.

And there is no comparison with India and China. Ireland emits 10 times more carbon per person than either China or India. We need to be trying to get DOWN to their levels, not waiting for them to get UP to our levels.

At the end of the day - Ireland alone cannot save Planet Earth!!

I totally agree.

But we can take a leadership role, and benefit from the opportunities that will present.

Ri na hEireann

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Who will it be then?

The Greens and FF are in Government until 2012. But just suppose there was an election next week, what are Labour and Fine Gael offering?

They are great at telling us what the Government are doing wrong, but whenever they are asked what they would do different they go all coy and say "but we're the opposition, we don't have to come up with solutions. Our job is to oppose".

That is like saying "Vote for us, cos we're not them".

That is not a credible position.

All three big Parties are guilty of short term thinking. That is what got us into this mess.

Nobody ever thought about that - in the three big parties.

Well it will be a Fine Gael led Government. This Government will not last the full term.

* Well to boost consumer confindence and help save jobs FG will reverse the increase in VAT in the budget which they have stood against all along.

* Freeze Government charges and local authority rates and levies to reduce business costs and give that little extra to the struggling small to medium sized buisnesses that are feeling the pinch at the moment.

* Looks at Varadkars "Steamlining Government" document in which he identifies where we can reform Quangos and reform them with focus on cutting waste, improving efficiencies and not just rendering them useless with budget cuts with no guidelines.

* FG will make the cuts in the Junior Ministries and bring in a proper vouched expense system, that the Green party is and will talk about but won't be able to overcome the vested interests in the FF party to implement any real changes that aren't just "under the radar".

* FG will totally reform the HSE. Apparently something you said a Green Health Minister would achieve. Well FG will get it done and I await the new FG proposal in this area which will be based upon the Dutch Health system.
FG proposes health plan based on Dutch model

* Alot of people forget that FG offered an alternative perspective to the November budget with Richard Bruton's Recovery through reform.


* FG would approach the social partnership talks in a more transparent way and would actually lead rather than be led.

People don't trust Fianna Fáil to lead us out of this mess and even though Fine Gael will have a difficult time trying to get the economy back on track, at least they'll make a better effort than The Soldiers of Destiny.
I think the majority accept that.

Just out of curiosity Stan, would you prefer to be in a FG/Green Coalition or leave it as it is? Just out of interest?

Your comment about all three partys being guilty of short term thinking is amusing. Outside the realms of Energy and the Environment the Greens have little in terms of solid politics. That said, I do think given full control of these portfolios withing the boundaries of a competent Government the Greens would be a beneficial part of Government. But at the moment they are just out of touch with the crisis and oblivious to the problems ordinary people are feeling. Nobody whose been laid off or had a wage cut recently is going to welcome someone trying to ram disjointed environment-saving policies down their throats. They just want to be sure they can feed their families,pay the bills etc etc.

How do I multiquote the one post actually?

Ri na hEireann

I take it we're gone well off topic?

Stan Nangle

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

I take it we're gone well off topic?

Not at all.

These Local Elections are going to be very important, not least because the role of Local Government is going to change enormously over the coming years.

I think discussing the bigger picture and the policies of the various Parties is as important as the personalities of the Candidates.

But if a new thread with a more appropriate title is called for lets do it.

Stan Nangle

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Well it will be a Fine Gael led Government. This Government will not last the full term.

I can't see this Government falling. Brian Cowen will not want to go down in History as the shortest serving Leader of the Party, and his backbenchers will not want to face the electorate for as long as possible.

* Well to boost consumer confindence and help save jobs FG will reverse the increase in VAT in the budget which they have stood against all along.

You can't "boost consumer confidence" in the current environment. People are maxxed out on debt and have no capacity to take on more. The Banks are maxxed out in terms of what they can lend because their Balance Sheets are so shaky. The jobs we need to save are the ones that bring in foreign exchange, but they are under pressure because most of our export markets have calved too.

The VAT cut in the UK has turned out to be a huge mistake, and anyone who suggests that we should copy their foolishness should be shot for treason.

* Freeze Government charges and local authority rates and levies to reduce business costs and give that little extra to the struggling small to medium sized buisnesses that are feeling the pinch at the moment.

I totally agree with that.

* Looks at Varadkars "Steamlining Government" document in which he identifies where we can reform Quangos and reform them with focus on cutting waste, improving efficiencies and not just rendering them useless with budget cuts with no guidelines.

That saves us one day's borrowing per year (€50 million). It's a start, but nowhere near big enough to solve our problems.

* FG will make the cuts in the Junior Ministries and bring in a proper vouched expense system, that the Green party is and will talk about but won't be able to overcome the vested interests in the FF party to implement any real changes that aren't just "under the radar".

Fine Gael never brought in a vouched expenses system when they were in Government, and the recent changes to the system by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission didn't mention vouched expenses - you might ask Fine Gael's Deputy Tom Hayes and Senator Paul Bradford why they passed on the opportunity to do so.

Much of the waste in Government is legacy stuff. Fine Gael and Labour were no angels when they were in power either. I am reliably informed that two Fine Gael members of the Oireachtas share accommodation when they are in Dublin, and both claim the cost of the accommodation as expenses.

I have been lobbying Dan Boyle and John Gormley on the unvouched expenses issue for a while now, and they are both committed to having it thrown out. The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission dropped the ball on that one, and I hope to see John Gormley push through the necessary reform in the near future.

* FG will totally reform the HSE. Apparently something you said a Green Health Minister would achieve. Well FG will get it done and I await the new FG proposal in this area which will be based upon the Dutch Health system.
FG proposes health plan based on Dutch model

I thought that was a very good document, although I do have a problem with the idea of multiple Insurance providers. We have a not-for-profit Insurance provider that is doing an excellent job and I think we should allow them to do their job without unfair competition, and predatory pricing, from the for-profit sector.

* Alot of people forget that FG offered an alternative perspective to the November budget with Richard Bruton's Recovery through reform.

I have great time for Richard Bruton, but much of that document was buzzwords and waffle, more of it was unworkable, and pretty much everything useful in it would be vetoed by Labour. There is no point in trying to refloat the economy until we have stopped falling, and until the Countries we export to have stopped falling. Any money thrown at the problem now would be wasted money. We can see that with the Banks. A number of other Countries have thrown good money after bad trying to prop up their Banks. We just offered a guarantee and have not (yet) had to put our hands in our pockets. This may change in the future, but so far we have played the game better than most. We must try to keep our powder dry until the upturn is in sight, and then, when our competitors are broke from fighting rearguard actions, we will be able to get back up and running at the opportune time.

* FG would approach the social partnership talks in a more transparent way and would actually lead rather than be led.

I doubt Comrade Gilmore would permit such an approach.

We'll see what comes out of these talks, but I do think that getting the Unions onside first is a good idea. We don't want the strikes and street protests that other Countries have had.

People don't trust Fianna Fáil to lead us out of this mess and even though Fine Gael will have a difficult time trying to get the economy back on track, at least they'll make a better effort than The Soldiers of Destiny.
I think the majority accept that.

History shows us that the only way to get the Country back on track is to have Fianna Fail in Government, implementing a Fine Gael strategy, with Labour safely out of reach of the controls.

Fianna Fail in opposition will go populist and undermine every attempt by a Fine Gael led Government to make the hard decisions, whilst Labour in Government will dither and faff at every hard decision.

Which rather leaves us in a bind.

Just out of curiosity Stan, would you prefer to be in a FG/Green Coalition or leave it as it is? Just out of interest?

Eamon Ryan for Taoiseach and Richard Bruton for Tanaiste and Minister for Finance.

Your comment about all three partys being guilty of short term thinking is amusing. Outside the realms of Energy and the Environment the Greens have little in terms of solid politics. That said, I do think given full control of these portfolios withing the boundaries of a competent Government the Greens would be a beneficial part of Government.

The Greens have solid long term policies across all the Departments.

One difference between the Greens and other Parties is that we think the long term policies should be given primacy. If you don't know where you are going how can you plan out the route?

But at the moment they are just out of touch with the crisis and oblivious to the problems ordinary people are feeling. Nobody whose been laid off or had a wage cut recently is going to welcome someone trying to ram disjointed environment-saving policies down their throats. They just want to be sure they can feed their families,pay the bills etc etc.

Nobody is trying to "ram disjointed environment-saving policies down their throats".

The Green policies are about saving money, both in the home and across the economy. Some have immediate benefit, others are more long term. But we are going to have to start the long term ones at some stage, and there is never going to be a "right time". Just take the medicine, and you'll feel better in the morning. If you put off taking the medicine you will still feel like sh*t in the morning. How do you want to feel in the morning?

I can assure you that the Ministers are not oblivious to the problems - they hold Constituency Clinics just like every other TD. The difference is that the solutions they propose are solutions to the underlying problem, not some temporary fix to take away the symptoms and make people feel good.

I had Trevor Sargent here in Tramore for a visit a couple of years ago and we brought him to visit a class in the CBS who had sent him an invitation. The classroom they were in was a pre-fab that I was taught in back in 1978.

I suggest that it is Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour who are the ones who are oblivious to the real issues people face, but they are great at fobbing them off with waffle.

Enigm_a

Does anybody know who is running for FF in this year`s Local & European Elections (city & county)? Convention was supposed to be held last Friday in the Tower. Seems to be very hush-hush??

Stan Nangle

Enigm_a wrote: »

Does anybody know who is running for FF in this year`s Local & European Elections (city & county)? Convention was supposed to be held last Friday in the Tower. Seems to be very hush-hush??

There's a lot of disquiet in FF at the moment. Apparently Mount Street are driving the candidate selection process and old-timers are none too impressed to have their local input ignored.

The Convention for the City was last week and the only name that sticks in my mind is Bernard Wyse of Carpets fame.

Dungarvan Convention has been held. Names were in the News & Star today, but don't have it to hand.

Tramore Convention hasn't been held yet.