Local Elections 2009

Sully

You could vote FG based on all there other policies, bar just one. Same goes for any part.

Lets be fair Stan, 3,000 people attending a show based on green energy - of course they wont have issue with other green policies. Its what they use themselves. (Besides, I doubt every one agreed). Good work on the show though. Good to see more green energy being promoted.

CantGetNoSleep

Sully wrote: »

You could vote FG based on all there other policies, bar just one. Same goes for any part.

Lets be fair Stan, 3,000 people attending a show based on green energy - of course they wont have issue with other green policies. Its what they use themselves. (Besides, I doubt every one agreed). Good work on the show though. Good to see more green energy being promoted.

No one is trying to disagree that we need to become more energy aware, and I admit that the policies you have mentioned will be beneficial, but not every Green Party proposal is popular, what about the levy on those who are provided with a parking space at work? Some of these have no option other than driving to work - I know FF introduced this policy but you can smell green off it from a mile away.

And do the Greens agree with everything FF has decided in recent months? Take abolishing the cervical cancer vaccination as one example? If they don't - why do they continue to support them in Government? Just so that you can implement your save the planet policies? Maybe the Greens own policies are not all that bad, but in a coalition you will also have to take responsibilty for your partners policies - especially given that you are one of the only one's in a realistic position to stop it by voting against it - just ask a PD if you don't agree

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

You could vote FG based on all there other policies, bar just one. Same goes for any part.

Lets be fair Stan, 3,000 people attending a show based on green energy - of course they wont have issue with other green policies. Its what they use themselves. (Besides, I doubt every one agreed). Good work on the show though. Good to see more green energy being promoted.

My point was that Green Policies are only "unpopular" until people find out what they are actually about.

The Energy Show was about matching people who want to save money with local companies which provide money saving products and technologies. People understood that, and they came to find out more. I don't know how many of them got the connection to Green policies, but that is not the important thing. Getting the policies implemented is what is important, because if we don't we are f**ked.


I joined the Greens in 2002 because they were the only Party with a credible Energy Policy. Here we are in 2009, the IEA have now confirmed what the Greens were saying in 2002 about Peak Oil, and still no other Party has yet come up with a credible Energy Policy.

Fine Gael's most recent (half assed) policy statement wants to ban the use of diesel after 2015.

They haven't a clue!


I've just watched Richard Bruton on Prime Time. He wants "political leadership to reform the public service", as opposed to (what he called) Fianna Fail's "taxing families".

He seems to forget that nurses and gardai are public servants AND taxpaying families. How are all these public servants Fine Gael wants to sack meant to make ends meet?

Do Fine Gael really think that Labour will allow them to start sacking public servants willy-nilly?

Not on your life.

It's all talk!


I like the Fine Gael Health Policy - except the bit where they want multiple private profiteering insurance companies. Why not let the taxpayer owned, non-profit, VHI provide the service instead of forcing people to hand over additional money to line the pockets of the owners of for-profit insurance companies?


Fine Gael need to figure out what they are about. From where I'm standing all they seem to be interested in is getting into power - for power's sake. They don't have a consistent, credible, joined-up and robust policy platform. I know some FG Councillors who consider themselves to be socialist, and I know some FG Councillors who would make Genghis Khan look like Mother Teresa.

Sully

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

No one is trying to disagree that we need to become more energy aware, and I admit that the policies you have mentioned will be beneficial, but not every Green Party proposal is popular, what about the levy on those who are provided with a parking space at work? Some of these have no option other than driving to work - I know FF introduced this policy but you can smell green off it from a mile away.

And do the Greens agree with everything FF has decided in recent months? Take abolishing the cervical cancer vaccination as one example? If they don't - why do they continue to support them in Government? Just so that you can implement your save the planet policies? Maybe the Greens own policies are not all that bad, but in a coalition you will also have to take responsibilty for your partners policies - especially given that you are one of the only one's in a realistic position to stop it by voting against it - just ask a PD if you don't agree

Not sure why you are quoting me?!

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Fine Gael's most recent (half assed) policy statement wants to ban the use of diesel after 2015.

They haven't a clue!

I haven't had a chance to read the policy, but I think we all know that FG (or any other party) would have much of a "clue" in terms of Green awareness.

I've just watched Richard Bruton on Prime Time. He wants "political leadership to reform the public service", as opposed to (what he called) Fianna Fail's "taxing families".

He seems to forget that nurses and gardai are public servants AND taxpaying families. How are all these public servants Fine Gael wants to sack meant to make ends meet?

Do Fine Gael really think that Labour will allow them to start sacking public servants willy-nilly?

Not on your life.

It's all talk!

Labour have called for similar and its not just about Gardai an Nurses. Public service in all areas needs to be reformed badly. Even FF know it, and have admitted it on Prime Time. Even in the local college, its the exact same. So no, its not all talk.

I like the Fine Gael Health Policy - except the bit where they want multiple private profiteering insurance companies. Why not let the taxpayer owned, non-profit, VHI provide the service instead of forcing people to hand over additional money to line the pockets of the owners of for-profit insurance companies?

A good question, I will try to find out the exact reason for this proposal as I am intrigued.

Fine Gael need to figure out what they are about. From where I'm standing all they seem to be interested in is getting into power - for power's sake. They don't have a consistent, credible, joined-up and robust policy platform. I know some FG Councillors who consider themselves to be socialist, and I know some FG Councillors who would make Genghis Khan look like Mother Teresa.

Your very anti everybody but Greens though Stan. Even a little anti FF. Fine Gael and Labour are the only two party's who can offer Ireland real change. More so Fine Gael. I would love to see the Greens in power but not on their own. I think its a shame they want into power with FF as they have been given a fairly heavy blow.

As for councillors, well its not a party thing. Its mainly about that candidate and what they can do for the area mostly. I wouldn't be a fan of some FG Councillors around the country.

Anyway folks, we are gone way off topic here. This is ideally suitable for the Politics forum so lets just keep the discussion to local.

CantGetNoSleep

Stan - can I ask you a few questions in general, or mainly can you just tell me what your intentions are if you get elected? Personally, I will be voting for a candidate based on what they will do for me and my immediate area, rather than what their party's policies are nationally.

In my opinion a town councillor should be working to improve Tramore, rather than help implement their party's national strategies, and I would vote for someone if he/she seems to have reasonable ideas for local improvement rather than an intention to save the planet

CantGetNoSleep

Sorry Sully I quoted you mistakenly

Have we gone off topic though - surely if we are trying to decide who to vote for it is important to know their policies, and for me whether they are working as part of a party or are more interested in local interests? This makes me tempted to vote Ind this time

Stan Nangle

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

No one is trying to disagree that we need to become more energy aware, and I admit that the policies you have mentioned will be beneficial, but not every Green Party proposal is popular, what about the levy on those who are provided with a parking space at work? Some of these have no option other than driving to work - I know FF introduced this policy but you can smell green off it from a mile away.

The vast majority of those hit by the parking levy are public servants who get to park free of charge in car parks sitting on very valuable real-estate in Dublin City Centre owned by you and me.

If you and me worked in the office next door we'd have to pay for our parking. The public servants get it for free.

And do the Greens agree with everything FF has decided in recent months? Take abolishing the cervical cancer vaccination as one example? If they don't - why do they continue to support them in Government? Just so that you can implement your save the planet policies? Maybe the Greens own policies are not all that bad, but in a coalition you will also have to take responsibilty for your partners policies - especially given that you are one of the only one's in a realistic position to stop it by voting against it - just ask a PD if you don't agree

I'm not up to speed on the vaccine thing. I understand (although I may be mistaken) that there is a problem with the vaccine and that a number of countries are reviewing their plans to introduce it.


One of the key policies we are getting implemented is Political Reform. FF, FG and Labour have allowed the system to get out of hand over the last 40 or 50 years. TDs get unvouched expenses - they don't have to spend the money, they get it by right. Two married FG TDs were claiming a couple of hundred euro a night for accommodation in Dublin even though they were sharing (they have since paid it back after a newspaper picked up on it).

There are new limits on political donations, new spending limits at election time, reduced expenses for TDs, reduction in the number of Junior Ministers, reduction in the cost of Oireachtas Committees.

Before the end of this Dail there will be reform of the Senate, more powers/responsibilities for Councillors, and more money/services delivered through Councils.

Stan Nangle

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Stan - can I ask you a few questions in general, or mainly can you just tell me what your intentions are if you get elected? Personally, I will be voting for a candidate based on what they will do for me and my immediate area, rather than what their party's policies are nationally.

In my opinion a town councillor should be working to improve Tramore, rather than help implement their party's national strategies, and I would vote for someone if he/she seems to have reasonable ideas for local improvement rather than an intention to save the planet

Fair point.

I'm working on that at the moment - putting it down in words in a concise manner isn't as easy as it should be.

Will have it up on my website in the next week to ten days.

Sully

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Fair point.

I'm working on that at the moment - putting it down in words in a concise manner isn't as easy as it should be.

Will have it up on my website in the next week to ten days.

You could just post the letter you sent.

scout353

Stan Nangle wrote: »

What "unpopular" Green policies?

Global Oil production has peaked. It is about to start dropping at a rate of 9% per annum. This is going to cause spot shortages (like it did in many Countries last year), and massively volatile prices.

The Green Party has a plan to reduce the impact this phenomenon will have on people's lives.

So far we have improved the insulation standards by 40% (will go to 60% next year) - something Green Councillors had been doing on a Council by Council basis, against the expressed wishes of Dick Roadstone Roche when he was Minister.

We have brought in €100 million in grants to help people make their houses more energy efficient.

We have given business major incentives to reduce their energy costs.

We have reduced electricity and gas prices.

We have introduced a 19c feed-in tariff for people with small renewable generators (which makes them cost effective).

There is a lot of We in that statement. Are you saying that all of these initiatives are Green Party ideas?

I thought it was the drop in global oil prices that has resulted in the drop in electricity and gas prices.

Competition has further reduced prices.

The 19c incentive is a joke - how is being monitored? People apply for the rate and are told sorry we already have the numbers required. Or what about the fact that these home generators can't produce enough power to run existing homes so there may not be any excess electricity that can be sent to the national grid?

I helped organise an Energy Show at Tramore Racecourse last weekend. We had almost 3,000 people through the doors. None of them were of the opinion that the above policies are "unpopular".

How many of those 3000 people were actually interested in these policies or were they there just cos there was something different to do on a sunday afternoon?

Stan Nangle

scout353 wrote: »

There is a lot of We in that statement. Are you saying that all of these initiatives are Green Party ideas?

Pretty much.

The 40% improvement in energy efficiency of buildings was originally done by a couple of individual Local Authorities that had Green Councillors (Fingal was the first, if I remember correctly).

I brought a Lecturer from DIT down to meet the Planners in Waterford County Council in early 2007 to see if they would buy into the idea, but Dick Roche, the then Minister for the Environment, was telling Councils that he would veto any such improvements, so we didn't get any traction before the General Election, and John Gormley made it mandatory for all Councils within weeks of becoming Minister.

It was a no brainer, and it is such a pity that it wasn't done sooner. Think of all those tens of thousands of homes that were not insulated properly because Fianna Fail didn't want to impact on Roadstone's cavity block business.

I thought it was the drop in global oil prices that has resulted in the drop in electricity and gas prices.

Competition has further reduced prices.

Eamon Ryan persuaded the Regulator to do an unplanned review, otherwise it would be the end of the year before the review was done.

He also played a key role in encouraging Bord Gais to start selling electricity to the domestic sector.

The 19c incentive is a joke - how is being monitored? People apply for the rate and are told sorry we already have the numbers required. Or what about the fact that these home generators can't produce enough power to run existing homes so there may not be any excess electricity that can be sent to the national grid?

It's not about the level of power generated, it is about the timing. If there is no/low demand in the house/farm/business when the wind is blowing, then the production goes out into the grid and brings in an income.

There are better models we could use, but to even get this one up and running is a huge achievement. Even 12 months ago we thought we wouldn't be able to make it happen at all there was such bureaucratic opposition.

How many of those 3000 people were actually interested in these policies or were they there just cos there was something different to do on a sunday afternoon?

I don't know for sure.

The general impression was that most people knew what they were looking for and were asking relevant questions, but I'll follow up with the exhibitors and see how much business they generated on the day. That would really be the best indicator.

scout353

Fair enough Stan - you do seem to have robust answers for everything that's thrown at you!

Stan Nangle

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Stan - can I ask you a few questions in general, or mainly can you just tell me what your intentions are if you get elected? Personally, I will be voting for a candidate based on what they will do for me and my immediate area, rather than what their party's policies are nationally.

In my opinion a town councillor should be working to improve Tramore, rather than help implement their party's national strategies, and I would vote for someone if he/she seems to have reasonable ideas for local improvement rather than an intention to save the planet

I suppose the first thing to say is that the Green Party is a bottom up Party. Our Constitution gives primacy to the local groups, and the National Party is just an aggregation of the local groups. This does not make life easy when you are in Government, as John Gormley has found out on one or two occasions.

I have been involved in community work with Tramore Development Trust since 2002, and have been Chairman since 2006. I don't claim credit for any of the work TDT has done because it was a team effort, involving Directors, staff, and volunteers. A lot of the projects TDT were involved in also received invaluable support from Councillors, TDs and Public Servants.

And that's what it is all about as far as I am concerned - getting stuff done.



The three areas I will be focusing on as a Councillor will be:

Community Facilities : A Sheltered Housing Scheme (TDT has done a research project to justify the proposal, and set up a seperate Company to deliver it), A Multi-Purpose Community Centre (Architects model will be on display in the Coastguard Station in a couple of weeks), a new Library (Timetable has been agreed with Council), a new Childcare Centre (I have a BBS student from WIT doing the research and writing the proposal document as a project), and making sure that the new schools we have been promised actually get built.

Sustainable Economic Development: Developing a range of tourism products to attract more people to Tramore, and developing attractions that are not weather dependent. We also need to start developing more renewable energy businesses - Waterford has two Wind Turbines, Kilkenny has five, Wexford has EIGHTY FIVE! Waterford has no biofuels plants, Kilkenny has one (and one under construction), Wexford has two.

Transport/Road Safety: Just look at the Tramore Road. The Councillors voted to spend €1.2 million for a road to Clonea Strand that isn't used from September to July, vs €50,000 for the busiest road in the County.

When I raise issues about Road Safety as a Community Representative I am told that this is an issue for the Councillors (so STFU) - but then they don't do anything about it : temporary 30k limits outside schools when kids are going to and from school; a sign warning that Queen Street is one-way; fixing the broken surface at Ballykinsella Cross; enforcing the parking regulations at the pedestrian crossings at Summerhill (or removing the crossings if they aren't prepared to enforce the law).

If you've been down the Lady's Slip in Tramore recently you will have seen the damage done during the Winter storms. At the April meeting of the Town Council the Engineer stated that they had "looked at" the issue, and were now going to begin a tendering process. The tendering process will take 3 months to complete - That's April, May & June gone on the tendering process! The Councillors just accept this!


This was supposed to be a short response - but it didn't quite work out that way :rolleyes:

I've a Newsletter just printed which gives a good handle on what I'm about, and I've uploaded a low-res version to my website. The Newsletter is more focused on Tramore Town, as opposed to the Tramore Electoral Area, but that is due to circumstances. As a County Councillor I'll be putting as much effort into the whole Electoral Area as I have put into Tramore in my current role.

And apologies for being so long winded.

Jim_Are_Great

I'll be voting independent because I think that it's the most effective political setup, certainly at local level. Parties exert a lot of pressure on their candidates, and I think that the ideal representative can freely express his or her opinions and follow his or her own initiative without fear of party rebuke.

Sully

Jim_Are_Great wrote: »

I'll be voting independent because I think that it's the most effective political setup, certainly at local level. Parties exert a lot of pressure on their candidates, and I think that the ideal representative can freely express his or her opinions and follow his or her own initiative without fear of party rebuke.

I think Joe Conway is an excellent independent and is an excellent candidate for town and county. He wont have any problems id imagine. I do think we need to vote party - iv heard plenty of FF candidates publicly bash the government for the budget(s). Sometimes having a party in there can actually help rather then hinder. Just run by Indepdents wont get the town very far when you need the help from the "big boys".

Stan; Good newsletter, fair play.

Psychedelic

fair play stan, you sound like you actually give a **** unlike some of the current councillors. so you are going for election to both the town council and county council then?

Jim_Are_Great

Sully wrote: »

I think Joe Conway is an excellent independent and is an excellent candidate for town and county. He wont have any problems id imagine.

Definitely agree with you there. Also, my previous post is certainly not in refrence to the "independents" who have emerged of late.

Sully wrote: »

I do think we need to vote party - iv heard plenty of FF candidates publicly bash the government for the budget(s). Sometimes having a party in there can actually help rather then hinder. Just run by Indepdents wont get the town very far when you need the help from the "big boys".

Don't realy know what you mean there, though. Independents have, in general, more capactiy to answer to the people they represent rather than having to balance that with answering to the party whip system. Also, I generally respect independents more than party candidates because, by and large, they run their campaigns off their own backs rather than having a party funding machine behind them.

Gulamugas

Jim, apologies but you are wrong on all counts

1. Parties do not put any pressure or interfere with local election candidates. Individual members of the local branch may have suggestuions for the candidate but at the end of the day the candidate will decide.

2. Party whip does not apply. If you check you will often see members of same party vote against each other at council meetings.

3. local candidates do not get any financial support from the "party funding machine". It every man for himself

Sully

Im not so sure about no.3 - to the best of my knowledge, they do get some funding. I know that for new candidates in one political party they get all their election material done for them. I know that those who have run before pay out of their own pocket though.

Everything else is spot on.

Gulamugas

Sully, over the years I have been involved with candidates from various parties and a donation or "some funding" from the party is the exception rather than the rule. My point really was that Jim doesnt understand the system, the misconception that the "party funding machine" is there to support the candidates is total rubbish. A decent campaign for town council could cost a grand and a county council campaign will cost the guts of about €6/7g and the raising of that funding is the responsibility of the candidate and no one else, except obviously the party you mentioned who help first timers - which one is it and sure we will all join and have a go at the election!

Jim_Are_Great

Gulamugas wrote: »

Jim, apologies but you are wrong on all counts

1. Parties do not put any pressure or interfere with local election candidates. Individual members of the local branch may have suggestuions for the candidate but at the end of the day the candidate will decide.

2. Party whip does not apply. If you check you will often see members of same party vote against each other at council meetings.

3. local candidates do not get any financial support from the "party funding machine". It every man for himself

1. You're saying that there's never a compulsion to vote a particular way according to party dictate? You're saying that a party affiliate never has to consider the party's line?

2. Voting against each other at county meetings ≠ freedom from party compulsion. You're not the only one who has worked with candidates, and party heirarchy does affect how councillors vote.

3. They do get funding, and as someone who works/has worked with parties you will know that party candidates often ask for party contributions in return for constituency work.

Stan Nangle

Gulamugas wrote: »

A decent campaign for town council could cost a grand and a county council campaign will cost the guts of about €6/7g and the raising of that funding is the responsibility of the candidate and no one else!

Those figures are about right, and there is very little forthcoming from Dublin.

FF, FG and Labour all receive corporate donations, including from Developers and Banks. The Greens do not accept corporate donations because you can't make impartial decisions if you have lobbyists reminding you about the few bob they donated a couple of years ago.


<warning: blatant plug coming up!> :eek:

My fundraising will be in the form of a Table Quiz in the Grand Hotel on Thursday May 7th at 8pm. Love to see you there.

Sully

It wouldnt supprise me if the Greens took a donation. They have a habbit of saying one thing and doing another!

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

It wouldnt supprise me if the Greens took a donation. They have a habbit of saying one thing and doing another!

Eh?

Care to give us a like for instance?

Gulamugas

Thanks stan.How much is it per table. I might drop in, now that would make the news!
Jim the fact of the matter is that the party don't get involved in local issues they leave it to the elected to do what they think is best. The councillors may or may not agree to take a particular line but it's up to the individual councillor to go whatever way they think is the way their voters would choose and I speak from experience - I have the tshirt

Jim_Are_Great

Gulamugas wrote: »

... I have the tshirt

Me too. It's a bit small at this stage though.

Councillors, certainly in the county chamber, who have more experience/higher polls will frequently pressure their colleagues to vote along with them, even if the latter would otherwise be differently aligned. Nominations and promotions and withdrawals are thrown about. That's party control, even if it isn't centralised. Surely you know of this practise if you're as in-the-loop as you claim.

Traumadoc

I voted green the last general election because they told us they would never go into government with Bertie. :rolleyes: as they say "Fool me once....."

Stan Nangle

Traumadoc wrote: »

I voted green the last general election because they told us they would never go into government with Bertie. :rolleyes: as they say "Fool me once....."

Unfortunately the people decided they wanted Bertie back in and the Greens had a choice to make: Do we go in with FF and get some of our policies implemented, or do we let Labour go in with FF and we'll sit in opposition until 2012?

There was only one answer to that question.


The Greens are a policy driven Party. Our policies are clearly set out, and our process for developing policy is clearly set out.

The only way to get policies implemented is to be in Government.


46% of voters in Waterford voted for Fianna Fáil in 2007. The same happened up and down the Country. If you have a beef with the fact that FF got back into Government, take it up with the 46% of your neighbours who voted for them.

You might also take it up with FG and ask them why so many of their candidates deliberately sabotaged the chances of other FG candidates.


The Greens held their noses and did what they were elected to do - They are getting Green policies implemented.

Traumadoc

The majority of people did not vote for FF.
I did not vote to get green policies I voted to keep FF out. I loved the way Gormley stood up to Mcdowell who was ment to keep FF honest . I believed that Greens under Sargent were principled.
http://www.village.ie/Election_07/Election_Count/The_Greening_of_Hypocrisy/

I will not make the same mistake.

Stan Nangle

Traumadoc wrote: »

The majority of people did not vote for FF.
I did not vote to get green policies I voted to keep FF out. I loved the way Gormley stood up to Mcdowell who was ment to keep FF honest . I believed that Greens under Sargent were principled.
http://www.village.ie/Election_07/Election_Count/The_Greening_of_Hypocrisy/

I will not make the same mistake.

It is true that the majority of people did not vote for FF, but a significant minority did, and it was a blocking minority.

There were only two options on the table after the 2007 Election, Fianna Fáil - Labour and Fianna Fáil - Green. Nothing else was going to work.

Even up to a couple of weeks ago Labour were still refusing to rule out going in with Fianna Fáil after the next election.


The only way to guarantee Fianna Fáil are kept out is to ensure that Fine Gael get 80 seats or more, and that won't happen as long as sitting Fine Gael TDs actively work against their running mates, as happened in a number of instances in 2007 (Phil Hogan's hatchet job on John Paul Phelan being the most blatant).


You can't fix a problem until you know what it is, and the fact that Fine Gael failed to win the 2007 election is a something you should take up with them, not the Greens.