Comparison of Irish Football and Scottish Football

Gareth37

This was posted in anoither forum. Interesting stats regarding the performances of Irish football teams in Europe this season versus Scottish teams, who got some fairly handy ties.

Ireland
Played 16
Won 8
Drew 4
Lost 4

Scotland
Played 13
Won 0
Drew 3
Lost 10

_blank_

Gareth37 wrote: »

This was posted in anoither forum. Interesting stats regarding the performances of Irish football teams in Europe this season versus Scottish teams, who got some fairly handy ties.

Celtic got Manchester United, the Champions of England, and of Europe.

Yeah, real handy.

A Dub in Glasgo

Gareth37 wrote: »

This was posted in anoither forum. Interesting stats regarding the performances of Irish football teams in Europe this season versus Scottish teams, who got some fairly handy ties.

Ireland
Played 16
Won 8
Drew 4
Lost 4

Scotland
Played 13
Won 0
Drew 3
Lost 10

And your point is? Irish football is better than Scottish football?

You cannot even make that inference without regular meetings between the teams of the 2 leagues.

Pure Cork

FT: Ireland 2.500 - 1.375 Scotland

anonymous_joe

Ignore total figures - give us comparitive results in games of the same standard.

_blank_

Celtic and Rangers are better than anything in Ireland, this is not in doubt.

I reckon the top three or four LoI sides would hover between the SPL and SFD

Pure Cork

Des wrote: »

Celtic and Rangers are better than anything in Ireland, this is not in doubt.

I reckon the top three or four LoI sides would hover between the SPL and SFD

I think the LOI and the SPL, excluding the Old Firm, are a very similar standard. The main difference between the leagues is the people who run them.

Gareth37

Des wrote: »

Celtic got Manchester United, the Champions of England, and of Europe.

Yeah, real handy.

Rangers got a Lithuanian side and lost though

They also got Aa Alborg and could only manage 1 point against them. BATE from Belarus got as many points as Celtic

Also, Elfsborg beat Hiberian home and away and Pats beat them at home and drew away.

Arsenal could only manage the same result as Drogheda against Dynamo Kiev too in Kiev :eek:, despite Drogheda missing their keeper and best outfield player.

Just saying that the results are comparable.

Gareth37

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ignore total figures - give us comparitive results in games of the same standard.

St Pats 2 Elfsborg 1
Hiberian 0 Elfsborg 2
Elfsboirg 2 St Pats 2
Elfsborg 2 Hiberian 0

Drogheda 2 Levedia 1
Rangers 0 Kaunas 0
Levadia 0 Drogheda 1
Kaunas 2 Rangers 1

St Pats 0 Hertha Berlin 0
Celtic 0 AA Alborg 0
Hertha Berlin 2 St Pats 0
AA Alborg 2 Celtic 1

premierstone

Gareth37 wrote: »

Rangers got a Lithuanian side and lost though

They also got Aa Alborg and could only manage 1 point against them. BATE from Belarus got as many points as Celtic

Also, Elfsborg beat Hiberian home and away and Pats beat them at home and drew away.

Arsenal could only manage the same result as Drogheda against Dynamo Kiev too in Kiev :eek:, despite Drogheda missing their keeper and best outfield player.

Just saying that the results are comparable.

Untill a LOI team even make the group stages of either competitions you cannot compare and as much as it pains me as an Irish man that is not going to happen anytime soon, are you seriously trying to suggest that Bohs or Pats or Derry could achieve anywhere near what Celtic and Rangers have achieved in Europe in the last 5 years?

LuckyLloyd

Rangers made the final of the UEFA cup last year. Did an Irish club ever do the same? Meanwhile, Celtic got through to the last 16 of the Champions league. When an Irish club has never gotten to the group stages.

Data samples folks. Over any five year period or more, the SPL crushes the LOI in terms of European performance. If this years results were to become commonplace, you would have something to shout about.

So, we can bump this thread around a year from now and see how things have changed.

Xavi6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Rangers made the final of the UEFA cup last year. Did an Irish club ever do the same? Meanwhile, Celtic got through to the last 16 of the Champions league. When an Irish club has never gotten to the the group stages.

FYP

Pigman II

premierstone wrote: »

Untill a LOI team even make the group stages of either competitions you cannot compare and as much as it pains me as an Irish man that is not going to happen anytime soon, are you seriously trying to suggest that Bohs or Pats or Derry could achieve anywhere near what Celtic and Rangers have achieved in Europe in the last 5 years?

Not really a fair barometer either. I'd imagine if the SPL didn't have Keltic or Rangers that the next best team (ie hypothetical league winners) would have a very tough (nay impossible) time getting past qualifying round 3. So saying "we must get to group stages first" is unfair.

How much of the SPLs quotient is down to the results of just two clubs?

No doubt the leftovers in the SPL are better than the LOI but the gap (at least on the pitch) isn't as big as you might imagine.

Eirebear

I think Des is spot on with his comments.

Take Rangers and Celtic out of the equation and you have a league where the top 2 or 3 Irish teams could compete with the middle tier of scottish football. i.e respectable top 6 finishes fairly regularly.

_blank_

We can't talk about Scottish without talking about Celtic and Rangers though.

They do exist, and as a result, Scottish football is stronger than Irish football.

LuckyLloyd

Xavi6 wrote: »

FYP

Yeah, obv.

Pigman II

The only solution then is to have two huge clubs operating out of Dublin. I suggest they be Bohemians and Dublin GAA soccer team.

_blank_

Eirebear wrote: »

I think Des is spot on with his comments.

Take Rangers and Celtic out of the equation and you have a league where the top 2 or 3 Irish teams could compete with the middle tier of scottish football. i.e respectable top 6 finishes fairly regularly.

What is the "middle" tier in Scotland.

I don't know if you understood me correctly here.

I reckon the top 3 or 4 irish clubs would be at a level where they are hovering at relegation from the Premier / promotion from the First division in Scotland. Kind of like St Johnstone or Dunfermline.

premierstone

Pigman II wrote: »

Not really a fair barometer either. I'd imagine if the SPL didn't have Keltic or Rangers that the next best team (ie hypothetical league winners) would have a very tough (nay impossible) time getting past qualifying round 3. So saying "we must get to group stages first" is unfair.

How much of the SPLs quotient is down to the results of just two clubs?

No doubt the leftovers in the SPL are better than the LOI but the gap (at least on the pitch) isn't as big as you might imagine.

If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle!! Whats your point Rangers and Celtic are in the SPL end of really!!

And I do accept that the gap between the top three or four in the LOI and the second tier in the SPL is not as wide as some make out.

Eirebear

Des wrote: »

What is the "middle" tier in Scotland.

I don't know if you understood me correctly here.

I reckon the top 3 or 4 irish clubs would be at a level where they are hovering at relegation from the Premier / promotion from the First division in Scotland. Kind of like St Johnstone or Dunfermline.

The thing is the way scottish football is you can see any of the "other 10" teams taking points off each ther on a weekly basis.
No one is safe from that relegation battle.

I would expect the best two or 3 teams from Ireland to be exactly the same in this situation, so whilst they will never be like Gretna, they will never be entirely safe.

A finish anywhere between 3rd and 12th is possible for pretty much every team in the SPL at the moment.

_blank_

Eirebear wrote: »

The thing is the way scottish football is you can see any of the "other 10" teams taking points off each ther on a weekly basis.
No one is safe from that relegation battle.

I would expect the best two or 3 teams from Ireland to be exactly the same in this situation, so whilst they will never be like Gretna, they will never be entirely safe.

A finish anywhere between 3rd and 12th is possible for pretty much every team in the SPL at the moment.

Ah right.

I thought there would be a

1. Celtic / Rangers
2. Some other teams who never go down
3. Some other teams who go down/come up on a regular basis <-- which is where I'd put the Irish teams

Pigman II

premierstone wrote: »

If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle!!

Yeah but the important thing would be that you'd still kissed him when he came round to visit your family.

premierstone

Pigman II wrote: »

Yeah but the important thing would be that you'd still kissed him when he came round to visit your family.

I can only assume this is your way of admitting you were talking out of the wrong hole??

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Eirebear

Des wrote: »

Ah right.

I thought there would be a

1. Celtic / Rangers
2. Some other teams who never go down
3. Some other teams who go down/come up on a regular basis

A few years ago i would have agreed with you, and there will always be "traditional" favourites in terms of who people expect to beat easily etc.

It seems the current trend is for the team who came up to be the ones who go down, while the rest of the teams are seperated by a relatively small gap.

Pigman II

premierstone wrote: »

I can only assume this is your way of admitting you were talking out of the wrong hole??

Nah it's my way of admitting I don't have much time for people who imagine their aunty being their uncle.

premierstone

Pigman II wrote: »

Nah it's my way of admitting I don't have much time for people who imagine their aunty being their uncle.

But you conveniently choose to ignore the rest of my post??

redout

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fair enough but there is a huge disparity in Scottish football. The players, facilities and financial strength of the two Glasgow clubs makes it unfair to compare.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Pigman II

premierstone wrote: »

But you conveniently choose to ignore the rest of my post??

Just like you did to me so I guess we're even.

Pure Cork

premierstone wrote: »

Untill a LOI team even make the group stages of either competitions you cannot compare and as much as it pains me as an Irish man that is not going to happen anytime soon, are you seriously trying to suggest that Bohs or Pats or Derry could achieve anywhere near what Celtic and Rangers have achieved in Europe in the last 5 years?

Why can't we compare? It's all about results in Europe. Celtic and Rangers are stronger than any LOI club. Nobody would suggest otherwise. Take them out of the equation and the standard is very very similar. With them in the equation, considering their budgets, players, etc., the Old Firm have underachieved this season in Europe, and the Scottish coefficient has taken a hammering as a result.

premierstone

Pigman II wrote: »

Just like you did to me so I guess we're even.

No i accepted your point that the gap between the top two in the SPL and the rest is massive and that the gap between the top 3 or 4 in the LOI and the remainder of the SPL is not as big in footballing terms as many in the media would have us believe but the fact remains that Celtic and Rangers are part of the SPL and therefore this thread is pointless and futile

premierstone

Pure Cork wrote: »

Why can't we compare? It's all about results in Europe. Celtic and Rangers are stronger than any LOI club. Nobody would suggest otherwise. Take them out of the equation and the standard is very very similar. With them in the equation, considering their budgets, players, etc., the Old Firm have underachieved this season in Europe, and the Scottish coefficient has taken a hammering as a result.

Well change the title of the thread so because you cant just pick and choose which teams and which results you want to use to delude yourself into thinking that the LOI is at the same level or near the same level as the SPL as things stand

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Pigman II

premierstone wrote: »

No i accepted your point that the gap between the top two in the SPL and the rest is massive and that the gap between the top 3 or 4 in the LOI and the remainder of the SPL is not as big in footballing terms as many in the media would have us believe but the fact remains that Celtic and Rangers are part of the SPL and therefore this thread is pointless and futile

Yes but we're comparing Irish football to Scottish football. You brought in the disqualifier of "a team must make it to the CL before we can compare the two" - effectively singling out Rangers and Keltic. I however am still interested in what remains an want to compare the two leagues, but since your condition makes this impossible I must therefore remove K and R to make the leagues comparable once again.

Pure Cork

premierstone wrote: »

Well change the title of the thread so because you cant just pick and choose which teams and which results you want to use to delude yourself into thinking that the LOI is at the same level or near the same level as the SPL as things stand

Including Celtic and Rangers, LOI teams are of a very similar standard to the rest of the SPL teams. They wouldn't break into the top two. The results speak for themselves.

According to you, I can't compare the LOI to the SPL because of Celtic and Rangers presence. When I took them out of the equation, you said that they should be in the equation. Comparisons are going to be made either way.

prendy

lol at the thread.:D

if you take the top 50 teams out of the english league the LOI clubs would be great!

Celtic and Rangers are in SPL. you cant compare the two leagues without the old firm. Scottish football as a result is way ahead of LOI.

no real argument here.

HalloweenJack

Des wrote: »

They do exist, and as a result, Scottish football is stronger than Irish football.

And thanks to Celtic, Irish football has less supporters.

Pigman II

HalloweenJack wrote: »

And thanks to Celtic, Irish football has less supporters.

Not really. If they weren't supporting Keltic they'd just be supporting some other British club.

HalloweenJack

Pigman II wrote: »

Not really. If they weren't supporting Keltic they'd just be supporting some other British club.

Perhaps but they all believe the Irish connection justifies their support.

_blank_

HalloweenJack wrote: »

And thanks to Celtic, Irish football has less supporters.

That has zero to do with this thread.

premierstone

Pigman II wrote: »

Not really. If they weren't supporting Keltic they'd just be supporting some other British club.

Any maybe they'd even be able to spell Celtic :rolleyes:

Gareth37

I agree with the general comments that Celtic and Rangers in past seasons were much stronger than LOI teams.

However, this season I think that Celtic and Rangers have the poorest teams that they have had since I can remember. Maybe next season both will do very well after a shake up but one would expect Celtic to do much better against understrength Man Utd and in particular AA Allborg. In past seasons Celtic's performances were much better. This season they looked outclassed in Europe and Rangers lost to a very average Lithuanian side.

Pigman II

premierstone wrote: »

Any maybe they'd even be able to spell Celtic :rolleyes:

Or even pronouce it.

Well done for using the rolleyes btw, It's like a electronic tatoo for identifying people with the mental age of a 10 year old. Keep it up.

Gareth37

Gareth37 wrote: »

St Pats 2 Elfsborg 1
Hiberian 0 Elfsborg 2
Elfsboirg 2 St Pats 2
Elfsborg 2 Hiberian 0

Drogheda 2 Levedia 1
Rangers 0 Kaunas 0
Levadia 0 Drogheda 1
Kaunas 2 Rangers 1

St Pats 0 Hertha Berlin 0
Celtic 0 AA Alborg 0
Hertha Berlin 2 St Pats 0
AA Alborg 2 Celtic 1

I suppose you could add:
Drogheda 1 Dynamo Kiev 2
Celtic ? Villerall ?
Dynamo Kiev 2 Drogheda 2
Vullerall 1 Celtic 0

premierstone

Gareth37 wrote: »

I suppose you could add:
Drogheda 1 Dynamo Kiev 2
Celtic ? Villerall ?
Dynamo Kiev 2 Drogheda 2
Vullerall 1 Celtic 0

But take out Drogheda and Pats and what did the LOI teams do in Europe, no that would be silly oh wait that would be like sayin if Celtic and Rangers were'nt in the SPL

Pure Cork

premierstone wrote: »

But take out Drogheda and Pats and what did the LOI teams do in Europe, no that would be silly oh wait that would be like sayin if Celtic and Rangers were'nt in the SPL

Other LOI teams in Europe: Bohs were knocked out on away goals in the Intertoto, but the Intertoto doesn't count towards coefficients. They underachieved, no question. City fell apart in Europe, and the club was in crisis this season. We were beaten by a side of similar standard. Both results (for City and Bohs) were embarrassing. Both clubs underachieved in Europe, but you could say the same for both Celtic and Rangers.

Just because Celtic and Rangers are in the SPL doesn't mean that people can't compare the standard of the other SPL clubs and LOI clubs. Are the other SPL clubs magically better because they play in the same league as the Old Firm?

Gareth37

premierstone wrote: »

But take out Drogheda and Pats and what did the LOI teams do in Europe, no that would be silly oh wait that would be like sayin if Celtic and Rangers were'nt in the SPL

Well Bohs did well but Cork City were poor.

The LOI usually has no consistency in Europe. Very good year this year so we may be due a few bad seasons next season and the season after. Im sure Celtic and Rangers will do better next season.

But what is certainly disappointing is that LOI clubs don't get anywhere near the average crowds that Hearts and Hibs etc get. The lack of support for Irish football is disappointing.

GuanYin

Pigman II wrote: »

Just like you did to me so I guess we're even.

Pigman II, if you aren't going to participate in discussion and debate and still want to post controversial opinions, I'm going to view you as trolling and ban you.

I'll check back here soon.

Pigman II

GuanYin wrote: »

Pigman II, if you aren't going to participate in discussion and debate and still want to post controversial opinions, I'm going to view you as trolling and ban you.

I'll check back here soon.

No problem. However I will note that I posted my views and the first reply I got is someone telling me his aunt is his uncle. Not much to work with.

eirebhoy

Gareth37 wrote: »

I agree with the general comments that Celtic and Rangers in past seasons were much stronger than LOI teams.

However, this season I think that Celtic and Rangers have the poorest teams that they have had since I can remember. Maybe next season both will do very well after a shake up but one would expect Celtic to do much better against understrength Man Utd and in particular AA Allborg. In past seasons Celtic's performances were much better. This season they looked outclassed in Europe and Rangers lost to a very average Lithuanian side.

Celtic actually have a better squad this season than last. If you even look at the similar group they faced in their first season. The 2 games against Man Utd then and the 2 games this season weren't too different. Equally outclassed in both (although Celtic could have done with a couple of the injured players). Celtic played much, much better in both games against the Danes this season than they did the last time. And the away game in Villarreal was certainly a lot better to the away game against Benfica. Home game still to come. So results don't tell the whole story. Celtic certainly haven't gone backwards but they haven't improved a lot as a team.

Anyway, on a more relevant note, I don't think Aberdeen were mentioned in this thread?

Aberdeen 0-0 Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk
Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk 1-1 Aberdeen (they were leaders of the Ukranian league at that time afair)
Panathinaikos 3 – 0 Aberdeen
Aberdeen 1 – 1 Lokomotiv Moscow
Atlético Madrid 2 – 0 Aberdeen
Aberdeen 4 – 0 Copenhagen
Aberdeen 2-2 Bayern
Bayern 5-1 Aberdeen

Some very good results there.

There isn't really that much of a difference between the bottom team in the SPL and the 3rd placed team. So I don't really think it's possible to say where Bohs should be expected to finish in the SPL. Let's just say the best of the LOI clubs are around the same level as the SPL clubs outside of the top 2.