Comparison of Irish Football and Scottish Football

DSB

If you wanna mention Aberdeen it is probably wise to point out the Bohs knocking them out thing in 2000. And then theres the Derry-Gretna 1.

And people are being a bit ridiculous laughing so much at the idea of making Rangers and Celtic exempt to get a better picture of the difference. I don't think anyone has once debated that Rangers and Celtic make the league a great deal stronger than ours, but outside of those 2 clubs, the standard is pretty similar.

eirebhoy

DSB wrote: »

If you wanna mention Aberdeen it is probably wise to point out the Bohs knocking them out thing in 2000.

That can hardly be used to compare the strength of teams in both leagues atm. I just pointed out that a non-top 2 Scottish team had a relatively impressive run in the UEFA cup too in the last year. The achievements of the Irish teams have been mentioned and it is a comparison thread.

A Dub in Glasgo

DSB wrote: »

If you wanna mention Aberdeen it is probably wise to point out the Bohs knocking them out thing in 2000. And then theres the Derry-Gretna 1.

Why don't we go the whole hog and mention the Celtic win of the European Cup in '67 that broke the Spanish/Italian/Portuguese hold on the competition?

How about the twin success in the European Cup Winners Cup for Rangers and Aberdeen?

How about the finalists in the European Cup for Celtic?

The finalists in the UEFA Cup for Dundee United, Celtic & Rangers?

The finalists in the Cup Winners Cup for Rangers (twice)?

Gareth37

eirebhoy wrote: »

Aberdeen 0-0 Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk
Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk 1-1 Aberdeen (they were leaders of the Ukranian league at that time afair)
Panathinaikos 3 – 0 Aberdeen
Aberdeen 1 – 1 Lokomotiv Moscow
Atlético Madrid 2 – 0 Aberdeen
Aberdeen 4 – 0 Copenhagen
Aberdeen 2-2 Bayern
Bayern 5-1 Aberdeen

Some very good results there.

They seem like last season's results but I take your point. Its much easier for the Scottish teams to make the group stages though. 4-0 at home to Copenhagen seems impressive

Tomthepost

Des wrote: »

What is the "middle" tier in Scotland.

I don't know if you understood me correctly here.

I reckon the top 3 or 4 irish clubs would be at a level where they are hovering at relegation from the Premier / promotion from the First division in Scotland. Kind of like St Johnstone or Dunfermline.

And what did Derry beat Grenta by a few seasons back???

Tomthepost

Pigman II wrote: »

Or even pronouce it.

Well done for using the rolleyes btw, It's like a electronic tatoo for identifying people with the mental age of a 10 year old. Keep it up.

What is my mental age??

Eirebear

Tomthepost wrote: »

And what did Derry beat Grenta by a few seasons back???

Along with every other team in the SPL?

Hardly a fair comparison considering what happened to Gretna last year is it?

_blank_

Eirebear wrote: »

Along with every other team in the SPL?

Hardly a fair comparison considering what happened to Gretna last year is it?

It was before Gretna were experiencing problems, iirc

Eirebear

Des wrote: »

It was before Gretna were experiencing problems, iirc

It was the same season though was it not?

ziggy

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_blank_

ziggy wrote: »

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Indeed.

Eirebear

ziggy wrote: »

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Fairynuff i thought it was last season, well its certainly a moot point now.

ziggy

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Gareth37

Tomthepost wrote: »

And what did Derry beat Grenta by a few seasons back???

That was such a memorable match.

It would be great to see Derry return to winning ways.

djpbarry

eirebhoy wrote: »

Let's just say the best of the LOI clubs are around the same level as the SPL clubs outside of the top 2.

I think that's a fair assessment.

eirebhoy wrote: »

I just pointed out that a non-top 2 Scottish team had a relatively impressive run in the UEFA cup too in the last year.

But generally, the performances of SPL teams (Celtic and Rangers aside) in Europe in recent years have been abysmal. This year, Motherwell and Queen of the South couldn't manage even a draw between them. Aberdeen did well last season, but Dunfermline fell at the first hurdle. Hearts did ok in 06/07, but we all know what happened to Gretna (;)). In 05/06, both Dundee Utd and Hibs failed to win a match. Admittedly, I'm no expert on Scottish football, but I see little in the European results to make me believe that Scottish sides are any better than Irish sides, Rangers and Celtic aside.

Gareth37

djpbarry wrote: »

I think that's a fair assessment.
But generally, the performances of SPL teams (Celtic and Rangers aside) in Europe in recent years have been abysmal. This year, Motherwell and Queen of the South couldn't manage even a draw between them. Aberdeen did well last season, but Dunfermline fell at the first hurdle. Hearts did ok in 06/07, but we all know what happened to Gretna (;)). In 05/06, both Dundee Utd and Hibs failed to win a match. Admittedly, I'm no expert on Scottish football, but I see little in the European results to make me believe that Scottish sides are any better than Irish sides, Rangers and Celtic aside.

The summer soccer has been great for Irish football too.

Tomthepost

ziggy wrote: »

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They were good enough to qualify for Europe which is all that is relevant!

Gareth37

Tomthepost wrote: »

They were good enough to qualify for Europe which is all that is relevant!

Indeed. They under estimated Derry anyway.

ziggy

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premierstone

ziggy wrote: »

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Are non-league teams allowed play in uefa competitions? :P

ziggy

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djpbarry

ziggy wrote: »

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Nobody's drawing conclusions based on a single tie. Well, most people are not.

ziggy wrote: »

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Non-league teams could compete in Europe provided they obtained a UEFA license.

Blackjack

There are a number of differentiating factors between the SPL and the LOI.

1 - attendance at games
2 - quality of the Football being played.
3 - Television

Scotland's better at all 3. I know that item 2 will rile some folk here but that's how I see it to be honest.
Fully appreciate that if attendance here were to increase then the quality here would also improve, but that's a bit of a chicken and egg situation with fans.

Also, how clubs are run is entirely different. As a Hibs supporter, I can point to how Hibernian is being managed financially as a good example for a team that is looking to remain competitive while creating future growth opportunities (see East Stand re-development and new training ground for reference).
There is the Old Firm factor to be considered in the SPL as well, insofar as there is the richer clubs in Glasgow who have the cash to draw away the better players, but that in itself is useful to ensure that funds are made available for transfers.

As regards TV, again the draw there is largely from the Celtic and Rangers Fan base. While the existinace of these 2 within the SPL makes a proper comparison between the 2 leagues impossible, it adds to the prizemoney available and other revenue streams for the clubs.

SantryRed

I don't agree with number 2 at all.

You'd get the same quality of football matches in Ireland as in Scotland.

eirebhoy

I'd say about half the LOI would face relegation from the SPL, the other half could well finish top half in the SPL. I think there's more of a gap in quality between the top and bottom teams in the LOI while there isn't too much of a difference between, say, Hamilton and Dundee Utd. The team that gets relegated from the SPL this season would be probably a top half LOI team. But that's just this season.

SectionF

There is one fundamental difference between the Irish and Scottish games from which all other differences flow. That is that Scottish people support Scottish football, and Irish people, by and large, don't support Irish football.
Irish people don't like football unless it is happening far away.

djpbarry

Blackjack wrote: »

There are a number of differentiating factors between the SPL and the LOI.

1 - attendance at games
2 - quality of the Football being played.
3 - Television

Scotland's better at all 3. I know that item 2 will rile some folk here but that's how I see it to be honest.

I'm not sure about that. Sure, it looks better on TV, but European results suggest that the SPL is of a similar standard to the LOI. The fact that Irish players in the SPL never receive international call-ups also lends weight to that argument. I am of course excluding the old firm from both those points.

Blackjack wrote: »

Also, how clubs are run is entirely different.

Possibly, although let's not forget what happened to Livingston and Gretna.

SectionF wrote: »

There is one fundamental difference between the Irish and Scottish games from which all other differences flow. That is that Scottish people support Scottish football, and Irish people, by and large, don't support Irish football.

True.

Quint

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why don't we go the whole hog and mention the Celtic win of the European Cup in '67 that broke the Spanish/Italian/Portuguese hold on the competition?

How about the twin success in the European Cup Winners Cup for Rangers and Aberdeen?

How about the finalists in the European Cup for Celtic?

The finalists in the UEFA Cup for Dundee United, Celtic & Rangers?

The finalists in the Cup Winners Cup for Rangers (twice)?

Is that all that scottish clubs have won in europe? That's a pretty woeful return considering Celtic and Rangers get 60k+ at every home game and get plenty of european experience every year. 1 european cup, but back then winning a european cup wasn't as hard as it is today.

Eirebear

Quint wrote: »

Is that all that scottish clubs have won in europe? That's a pretty woeful return considering Celtic and Rangers get 60k+ at every home game and get plenty of european experience every year. 1 european cup, but back then winning a european cup wasn't as hard as it is today.

Thats good going since Ibrox only holds 51,000....

Anyway, enough of the pedantry.

Could you explain to me how that logic works?
Scotland is a small country, with a population of around 5million. (to put this in context, Greater London has a population of around 7 million)

In the last 20 years the money taken in by ticket sales has been dwarved by the likes of TV money in the Premiership, Spain and Italy.

Have a look at countries of similar population size and i doubt youll find any (with the notable exception of Holland) who have a vastly different record to Scotlands in European Competittion

Quint

TV money has only been a major player in the past few years. And Celtic or rangers are pretty much given a spot in the Champions League

A Dub in Glasgo

lol TV money has been a major factor since Sky pumped all that dosh into the English league. Let me see, that was nearly 17 years ago!!

I fail to see your point though. This is a discussion about comparing the leagues in Scotland and Ireland. If you think Scotland league teams have done **** all in Europe, then multiply that **** all by 0 to give you what Ireland league teams have done in Europe.

Quint

I don't remember saying Irish teams were great in europe. All I said was celtic and rangers have horribly underachieved in europe considering the huge crowds and simple route to europe they get.
At least they get the crowds, I'm not irish, but I find it very strange that so many Irish fly over to glasgow every week to watch a plastic paddy team ahead of a real irish team. Usually it's the irish people with tri colour tatoos that think they're somehow really patriotic supporting Celtic

_blank_

Quint wrote: »

1 european cup, but back then winning a european cup wasn't as hard as it is today.

It's easier to win nowadays, imo.

Unearthly

Des wrote: »

It's easier to win nowadays, imo.

easier to qualify nowadays but harder to win I reckon. Quite a few teams used to retain their european cup back in the day, not so much nowadays

Quint

Back in the old days it had a champion from each country in it, and it was a complete cup competition. So lots of strong countries only had one team in it. The Fairs Cup had a stronger field of team in it

SectionF

Quint wrote: »

I'm not irish, but I find it very strange that so many Irish fly over to glasgow every week to watch a plastic paddy team ahead of a real irish team. Usually it's the irish people with tri colour tatoos that think they're somehow really patriotic supporting Celtic

Ouch!

A Dub in Glasgo

Quint wrote: »

I don't remember saying Irish teams were great in europe. All I said was celtic and rangers have horribly underachieved in europe considering the huge crowds and simple route to europe they get.
At least they get the crowds, I'm not irish, but I find it very strange that so many Irish fly over to glasgow every week to watch a plastic paddy team ahead of a real irish team. Usually it's the irish people with tri colour tatoos that think they're somehow really patriotic supporting Celtic

You really do want to take this thread off on a tangent, don't you?

Underachieved when compared to whom?

Eirebear

Unearthly wrote: »

easier to qualify nowadays but harder to win I reckon. Quite a few teams used to retain their european cup back in the day, not so much nowadays

Not in terms of Scottish or Irish teams it isnt.

This is the first year in three or four that the Champions went straight into the group stages.
And in the case of Irish teams then, well you know the story yourself.

Bateman

Lads, I would imagine the point that the thread has changed to is completely subjective and impossible to ever prove. I would be of the opinion that Stein's achievement at the expense of Herrera is one of the finest ever in the history of the game, whereas the recent away record, particualrly under Strachan, is inexcusable.

Eirebear

Bateman wrote: »

Lads, I would imagine the point that the thread has changed to is completely subjective and impossible to ever prove. I would be of the opinion that Stein's achievement at the expense of Herrera is one of the finest ever in the history of the game, whereas the recent away record, particualrly under Strachan, is inexcusable.

I think the original point was impossible to ever prove TBH, you cant compare two leagues on 1 season's european results and get a fair idea of the strength of them.

Bateman

Probably true, I've little interest in these threads myself, particularly when they're dragged off topic into issues which are even more difficult to prove

Blackjack

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. Sure, it looks better on TV, but European results suggest that the SPL is of a similar standard to the LOI. The fact that Irish players in the SPL never receive international call-ups also lends weight to that argument. I am of course excluding the old firm from both those points.

Agreed, but if you look at the transfers from the LOI to the SPL, it tends to be the better quality player (see McGinn is being looked at by Celtic) that leaves the LOI to go to the SPL. Sure, you get more TV exposure and more money, hence the atraction for the player.

djpbarry wrote: »

Possibly, although let's not forget what happened to Livingston and Gretna.
True.

Agreed, but then look at the LOI teams for the last 3 years, Bohs, Drogs and Shels all have had some serious financial issues. Cobh Ramblers and others to boot. There is more money in Scottish football, largely because of larger attendances and larger grounds. I don't have the stats, but the smallest SPL ground holds just over 6,000, 9 of the 12 hold more than 10,000, the largest holding 60,000.

I just don't think we're comparing apples with apples here.

As regards the quality, having attended both LOI games and SPL in person, I can say that I still see the better quality of football being played in the SPL. I did live in Scotland for a number of years so it's not simply a case of liking something because it was being played far away (lived about 500 yards away from Easter Road Stadium). Again, that's an opinion that many here will disagree with, and I'm sure there are plenty that will castigate me for it, but that's my opinion on the matter.

SectionF

Blackjack wrote: »

Agreed, but if you look at the transfers from the LOI to the SPL, it tends to be the better quality player (see McGinn is being looked at by Celtic) that leaves the LOI to go to the SPL.

Stephen O'Donnell turned down Falkirk, currently lying three points behind the mighty Hibs, to come to Bohs.

Blackjack

SectionF wrote: »

Stephen O'Donnell turned down Falkirk, currently lying three points behind the mighty Hibs, to come to Bohs.

Is that the Stephen O'Donnell who left Falkirk to go to Bohs?.

Any more examples?.

eirebhoy

O'Donnell's reason for leaving Falkirk was because he saw himself as a central midfield player and wanted a chance to play in that position regularly.

djpbarry

Eirebear wrote: »

I think the original point was impossible to ever prove TBH, you cant compare two leagues on 1 season's european results and get a fair idea of the strength of them.

Which is probably why I went back 3 or 4 years in a previous post.

Blackjack wrote: »

Sure, you get more TV exposure and more money, hence the atraction for the player.

You also get the chance to test yourself against the old firm.

Blackjack wrote: »

There is more money in Scottish football, largely because of larger attendances...

That's the nub of the matter right there.

Blackjack wrote: »

Is that the Stephen O'Donnell who left Falkirk to go to Bohs?.

Any more examples?.

Gary Dempsey? Aberdeen to Pats via Yeovil.

SectionF

Blackjack wrote: »

Any more examples?.

Not at the moment.
But his case illustrates that it is possible for a (very) good player to move in the opposite direction.

Taxipete29

This is not comparing like with like. Irish football has been mostly a league of part-time professionals up until the last 10 years when various clubs took the decision to go full-time, mostly this has lead to financial ruin for the majority of these clubs.

Irish people do not follow Irish football in any great number as we all know, whereas per capita more people in Scotland watch the SPL than any other nation in Europe.

The first live LOI game to be televised was in 1997 and since then it probably wouldnt be too far off the mark to say that there are more EPL games shown in a season than there has been LOI ever. Scottish football however has enjoyed injections of cash from Sky and now Setanta. While this has probobly benifted The old firm mostly, the money filters down through transfers.

Scottish football I think actually punches above its weight in Europe when you consider the fact that despite large attendances and good revenue streams the big 2 struggle to attract really top players because of how the league is percieved and the fact they cant match top clubs in England, Spain,etc for transfer fees or wages.

Irish clubs I think have done remarkably well in Europe over the past few years and given fans of domestic football a glimpse of what it is like to be playing with the big boys, but I fear no club will ever go beyond that 3rd Qualifying round of the CL, or beyond the first round proper of the UEFA cup unless millions is poured into the League, stadiums are filled on a weekly basis and a TV deal worth discussing is put in place. In short it aint gonna happen.

Any comparison, I think not.

Blackjack

SectionF wrote: »

Not at the moment.
But his case illustrates that it is possible for a (very) good player to move in the opposite direction.

so there are 2 examples of players moving from the SPL to the LOI.

Any ideas on how many we have in the opposite direction, or how many Irish lads are playing in the Scottish Leagues?. I doubt that the number is very comparable to be honest.