Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

thebman

not yet wrote: »

I really do laugh when I hear all the sniping at the pulic sector....

Let me point out just a couple of things.

1: we pay a thing called superannuation(pension) at the moment I pay 65 euro per week,so this bollocks of big fat free pensions is a pile of ****e.

2: 95% of public sector workers have a minimun of leaving cert standard. Alot more have 3rd level etc. most have to train for anything up to 5 years i.e nurses,guards,teachers. and whilst trainning get a minimum wage. first entry point on their pay scale is 22k a year, only after 7 years do they go on the top of the scale. Now if you want well trained,well motivated,well skilled staff is it not worth paying them a decent wage.

Only have to pay them enough to stop them going elsewhere, anything else is surplus because they aren't going to leave the public service if they can't improve their earnings so just match the private sector at most. The private sector has wage cuts and redunacies on the horizon so the wages should be coming down for public service.

And I don't think anyone earning over 22K a year should be saying they don't get paid a decent wage if your in your 20's.

There are people earning a lot less than that and many of them are educated too.

not yet

brim4brim wrote: »

Only have to pay them enough to stop them going elsewhere, anything else is surplus because they aren't going to leave the public service if they can't improve their earnings so just match the private sector at most. The private sector has wage cuts and redunacies on the horizon so the wages should be coming down for public service.

And I don't think anyone earning over 22K a year should be saying they don't get paid a decent wage if your in your 20's.

There are people earning a lot less than that and many of them are educated too.

Thats a complete load of bollocks. during the good times construction workers earned up to 75k a year, barmen 50k, are you telling me a nurse is not worth 38k. whilst people made fortunes during the celtic tiger the public sector just got on with their jobs.

kippy

not yet wrote: »

Thats a complete load of bollocks. during the good times construction workers earned up to 75k a year, barmen 50k, are you telling me a nurse is not worth 38k. whilst people made fortunes during the celtic tiger the public sector just got on with their jobs.

Cant say I agree with you there. The majority in both public and private sectors didnt actually do THAT well during the boom times.

Cuts are needed, of that I have no doubt however this kinda thing doesnt really encourage me as to whether the right cuts are going to be made across the board.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsneyqlcwsn/
Kippy

gurramok

Did i hear pensions?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0116/1232059653428.html

THE VAST majority of the 357,000 people employed in the public sector are members of a defined-benefit pension scheme which provides a guaranteed income on retirement.
In general, pensions for public sector workers are worth 50 per cent of salary on retirement and a lump sum of 1½ times final-year salary. A spouse’s pension worth 25 per cent of final-year salary may also be paid in case of death.

The pension scheme is even more generous for those who joined the public service prior to 1995. They may collect a public service pension as well as the State pension.

Another feature of public sector pensions is they are typically linked to the salary scale of a pensioner’s former employer, meaning a pension rises with benchmarking and national pay agreement increases. This does not occur with private sector pensions.

For example, prior to 1995, civil servants were not required to make any explicit contribution to their payment, while other public sector workers made contributions of around 3.5 per cent.

For those who have joined since 1995 – an estimated 40 per cent of the public sector – the average contribution rate has increased to 5 per cent. However, salaries were increased by up to 5 per cent at the time to incorporate this payment. The pension rate for employees who have joined since 1995 includes the State pension.

If you're paid so bad in the public sector, why don't you move to the so called lucrative private sector?

My pension is worthless now as the stock market has plummeted, its a contribution pension, not a benefit one as we don't have that choice.

not yet

kippy wrote: »

Cant say I agree with you there. The majority in both public and private sectors didnt actually do THAT well during the boom times.

Cuts are needed, of that I have no doubt however this kinda thing doesnt really encourage me as to whether the right cuts are going to be made across the board.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsneyqlcwsn/
Kippy

I agree cuts are needed,but it needs to be fair....

100k plus 10%: 50k plus 5%, under 50k 2%. no filling of retirement posts unless critical, cuts right across government i.e allowances, mileage etc.

thebman

not yet wrote: »

Thats a complete load of bollocks. during the good times construction workers earned up to 75k a year, barmen 50k, are you telling me a nurse is not worth 38k. whilst people made fortunes during the celtic tiger the public sector just got on with their jobs.

I don't work in construction, I don't get that much a year I can tell you that much.

Same with most people.

Your not entitled to it even if you work hard for a living. Live is sh*t but this isn't primary school where the best kids get sweets from the teachers or some other nonsense.

Real world time, wake up call, no money = wage cuts and cut backs on spending. We can't survive doing only one of the two.

Its annoying that I work hard for a living and don't earn as much as a construction worker in your example above but this is the real world. Realistically that construction worker is probably out of a job now and trying to get by on the savings he made in that time if he made any. Otherwise, he's probably just fooked.

ixoy

not yet wrote: »

Thats a complete load of bollocks. during the good times construction workers earned up to 75k a year, barmen 50k, are you telling me a nurse is not worth 38k. whilst people made fortunes during the celtic tiger the public sector just got on with their jobs.

Oh for the love of Jeebus, please stop thinking the private sector were all rolling in champagne and caviar during the "boom" times. Of course certain areas were - construction - but many people just got a moderate increase in living standards. Few of my circle hit the 50k mark and we are all in fields demanding qualifications. And barmen making 50k? Link to that one please - unless they were working insane overtime, I won't believe it.

There's also a myth that the public sector never saw the old Celtic tiger, yet we found evidence of someone who joined the sector in '04, having their wage go up by 46% in 4 years. My wage has done nothing like that, nor have other people in the private sector whom I know. It's this delusion that the public sector were hard done by, that's causing some of the issues around pay cuts.

grahamo

THE VAST majority of the 357,000 people employed in the public sector are members of a defined-benefit pension scheme which provides a guaranteed income on retirement.
In general, pensions for public sector workers are worth 50 per cent of salary on retirement and a lump sum of 1½ times final-year salary. A spouse’s pension worth 25 per cent of final-year salary may also be paid in case of death.[B]The pension scheme is even more generous for those who joined the public service prior to 1995. They may collect a public service pension as well as the State pension.Another feature of public sector pensions is they are typically linked to the salary scale of a pensioner’s former employer, meaning a pension rises with benchmarking and national pay agreement increases. This does not occur with private sector pensions.

For example, prior to 1995, civil servants were not required to make any explicit contribution to their payment, while other public sector workers made contributions of around 3.5 per cent.

For those who have joined since 1995 – an estimated 40 per cent of the public sector – the average contribution rate has increased to 5 per cent. However, salaries were increased by up to 5 per cent at the time to incorporate this payment. The pension rate for employees who have joined since 1995 includes the State pension. [/B]

I believe the pension is 50% of salary if you have 40 years contributions paid.
What people need to understand is that they deduct whatever you get from your state pension (which you have paid for through PRSI) from this 50% so you probably actually receive about 25% of salary from your pension. and its not cheap! This is how it works for staff taken on after 1995. So above is wholly inaccurate.

Public servants who started before 1995 pay a different class PRSI so are not entitled to a state pension or social welfare . I believe these people are paid 50% of salary after 40 years of contributions are made. So again what is said in the article is inaccurate.

I'd have to check but I doubt very much you receive 1 and a half years salary as a lump sum. (maybe this is for the bosses)

K-9

not yet wrote: »

Thats a complete load of bollocks. during the good times construction workers earned up to 75k a year, barmen 50k, are you telling me a nurse is not worth 38k. whilst people made fortunes during the celtic tiger the public sector just got on with their jobs.

Guards where and are earning 75k, prison guards too.

Nurses aren't that well paid, bur that's the Unions and Benchmarkings fault.

PS. 75K isn't much good to Construction workers now when they are losing their jobs and taking pay cuts to just keep jobs.

It's crazy pointing out the excesses of the Construction boom like 75k wages as some justification for Public Sector pay.

The boom is over for everybody. Can people not see that?

4/10 Architects have lost their jobs since 07.

OhNoYouDidn't

I must doff my hat to IBEC here. The day after the state have to bail out a bank people are arguing that the public sector should be made scapegoat for IBEC members actions.

A fascinating example of media manipulation and diverting attention away from the real story.

When the people arguing that hammering the public sector is needed argue as passionatly that Anglo bonuses should be handed back and directors loans repaid they will have a great deal more credibilty.

grahamo

Don't get me started on IBEC. Those greedy b*stards operate in the EU country with the lowest corporation tax rate and the lowest employer PRSI rate and it still isn't good enough for them. They want the country to give them MORE. The country is in a mess,
people are willing to make sacrifices to do their bit but IBEC bring nothing to the table.

OhNoYouDidn't

grahamo wrote: »

but IBEC bring nothing to the table.

they have brought the public sector cuts agenda to the table. no other group is arguing offically for paycuts, redundancies and curtailment of pension rights. all this noise has begun with them.

there is a need for public sector reforms, but there is a bigger need for reforms at board room level - but thats not getting the same media space, is it?

grahamo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

they have brought the public sector cuts agenda to the table. no other group is arguing offically for paycuts, redundancies and curtailment of pension rights. all this noise has begun with them.

there is a need for public sector reforms, but there is a bigger need for reforms at board room level - but thats not getting the same media space, is it?

You are dead right!

They've been constantly calling for pay cuts and layoffs and I'll bet they won't even consider a drop in their own living standards.

gurramok

I'm no fan of IBEC but they have a point.

It was a public sector body that oversaw the banks wreckless practices and failed in their jobs.
IBEC members compete against the planet for their members livliehoods where some have done well and alot more have not in recent times, the public sector who are paid by them do not compete against the planet hence job security.

SkepticOne

The government has allowed a crass culture of entitlement to infect the public sector due to lack of firm leadership. The government will now be turned upon when the money runs out by those who have benefited most. I've very little sympathy for either side in the current talks.

ixoy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

they have brought the public sector cuts agenda to the table. no other group is arguing offically for paycuts, redundancies and curtailment of pension rights. all this noise has begun with them.

Private sector doesn't need to argue for cuts - they're just getting handed them anyway!

there is a need for public sector reforms, but there is a bigger need for reforms at board room level - but thats not getting the same media space, is it?

Oh it most certainly is - the irregularities at AIB got lots of space. It's the sheer size of the public sector issue that means it gets more space as it's such a tough and difficult beast to tackle.

Still though I'd really like to see the Financial Regulator get powers (and use them properly) to curb some of the banks dealings as you're right that changes need to be implemented in many financial areas at board room level to try and prevent some of these issues again.

OhNoYouDidn't

ixoy wrote: »

Private sector doesn't need to argue for cuts - they're just getting handed them anyway!

The best answer to this is from the Times letter page today

Calls for public sector pay cuts
Madam, – I have had just about enough of the private sector commentators and so-called “financial experts” who are trying to create ill will between civil and public servants and the people they serve. The constant carping about job security and pensions which, it is alleged, are a burden on “the taxpayer”, serves no useful purpose and is totally misleading. Are they implying that teachers, nurses and gardaí do not pay tax? Unlike many people in the private sector, they are PAYE workers and cannot avoid their taxes.

As a teacher, I am well used to the attitude of certain elements of the private sector, who for the last number of years had a fine contempt for those of us who were not “profit-making entrepreneurs”. The Gordon Gekko mentality of greed and vulgarity ruled supreme in Ireland for more than 10 years and those of us who were not members of the financial elite were treated as utter fools when we said a downturn was coming. I clearly recall a speech by the former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, in which he wondered how people who were talking down the economy didn’t “commit suicide”.

Throughout the Celtic Tiger era, Irish society received a superb return on its very low investment in education – the second lowest of all OECD countries. (Since the recent education cuts, we are now probably at the bottom.) Despite this, educational standards were placed among the highest in the OECD. An incredible bargain, which even an economist should be able to understand.

While gardaí continued to put their lives on the line to protect our freedom and nurses performed miracles in AE departments, teachers faithfully honoured their contract with their students, preparing them for life and always making the deadline for State exams. They also regularly gave up their evenings and weekends, for no extra pay, to support students in sporting, musical, scientific, artistic and other activities. It would be interesting to know how many in the private sector are willing to work in the evenings and at weekends for no pay.

The current appeal to patriotism in the civil and public service I find truly nauseating. A patriot is one who works hard and pays his or her taxes. Throughout the years of the Celtic Tiger, there were no greater patriots than those who worked at “the coalface” and tried to hold the social fabric together while some of those entrusted with the management of the nation’s finances lined their pockets and achieved levels of incompetence and corruption that have left our country a wasteland. Not once have I heard an apology from those whose dishonesty and incompetence have bankrupted the country. Ibec’s suggestion that teachers should now take a salary cut in order to pay for this just beggars belief.

In the wake of limitless greed, we now have limitless arrogance. – Yours, etc,

SUSIE HALL,

Dublin Road,

Malahide,

Co Dublin.

321654

Excellent post about public servants there.

I reckon that our dear govt and Ibec etc are stirring the whole thing up between them on purpose. Leaking the odd survey and getting both sides up in arms.

Why? Because now, when they tell you everyone is getting a pay cut, will all bend over and take it, because both sides are getting it equally.

Although that is what we need to do (cut noth public and private), its a bit sneaky the way they are going about it.

Lets cut Vat rates to 15% while we're at it Brians.

jmayo

321654 wrote: »

Excellent post about public servants there.

I reckon that our dear govt and Ibec etc are stirring the whole thing up between them on purpose. Leaking the odd survey and getting both sides up in arms.

Why? Because now, when they tell you everyone is getting a pay cut, will all bend over and take it, because both sides are getting it equally.

Although that is what we need to do (cut noth public and private), its a bit sneaky the way they are going about it.

Lets cut Vat rates to 15% while we're at it Brians.

Ah yes whenever argument for public sector reform or efficiency, the sacred cows of gardai, teachers and nurses are wheeled out.
What percentage of public sector employees do the above three make up ?
What percentage of the above three actually either give a sh** and are not lazy incompetents that cannot be fired ?
Yes I know the majority are dedicated hard working nurses, gardai and teachers, but they are proping up the ones who should be dumped.

Don't worry the private sector will take care of it's own pay cuts & freezes.
How many private sector workers have been let go over the last 2 weeks, whilst on the other side the ESB workers are given a pay rise :rolleyes:
Ah but sure the ESB is proftable organisation as argued by public sector members over on the other thread.
What argument will they use when the rest of the public sector, who work in not profitable organisations (such as gardai, HSE, Civil Service), are looking for their pay rise ?

Yeah lets cut vat and give the ESB a pay rise at the same time.
Sure the money comes out of thin air doesn't it ?
Or maybe Lenihan pulls it out of his ar** :rolleyes:

OhNoYouDidn't

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes whenever argument for public sector reform or efficiency, the sacred cows of gardai, teachers and nurses are wheeled out.
What percentage of public sector employees do the above three make up ?
What percentage of the above three actually either give a sh** and are not lazy incompetents that cannot be fired ?
Yes I know the majority are dedicated hard working nurses, gardai and teachers, but they are proping up the ones who should be dumped.

Don't worry the private sector will take care of it's own pay cuts & freezes.
How many private sector workers have been let go over the last 2 weeks, whilst on the other side the ESB workers are given a pay rise :rolleyes:
Ah but sure the ESB is proftable organisation as argued by public sector members over on the other thread.
What argument will they use when the rest of the public sector, who work in not profitable organisations (such as gardai, HSE, Civil Service), are looking for their pay rise ?

Yeah lets cut vat and give the ESB a pay rise at the same time.
Sure the money comes out of thin air doesn't it ?
Or maybe Lenihan pulls it out of his ar** :rolleyes:

The more I read of this the more it occurs to me that the same commentators and pundits who defended tax evasion / avoidance and have been sniping at the tribunals are leading the charge against the public sector. They have simply moved the debate on. Now the middle class 'entrepreneurs' have to pay tax due to legal and cultural changes, the gripe is now what their tax money pays for, manifesting itself in somehow blaming the €23,000 clerical worker for the mess the triumverate of banks, property specualtors and Fianna Fail have created.

We do not have a highly paid public sector, with some exceptions at the top. Despite this there is a concerted effort to drive a wedge between people like me in the private sector who apparently should want those paid less than me in the public sector to be dragged down with me. I don't actually know anyone who begrudges the public sector their job security. It is an entirely contrived polemic.

The greasy till me féiners have found a new rallying point courtesy of Independent News and Media.

CDfm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The more I read of this the more it occurs to me that the same commentators and pundits who defended tax evasion / avoidance and have been sniping at the tribunals are leading the charge against the public sector. They have simply moved the debate on. Now the middle class 'entrepreneurs' have to pay tax due to legal and cultural changes, the gripe is now what their tax money pays for, manifesting itself in somehow blaming the €23,000 clerical worker for the mess the triumverate of banks, property specualtors and Fianna Fail have created.

We do not have a highly paid public sector, with some exceptions at the top. Despite this there is a concerted effort to drive a wedge between people like me in the private sector who apparently should want those paid less than me in the public sector to be dragged down with me. I don't actually know anyone who begrudges the public sector their job security. It is an entirely contrived polemic.

The greasy till me féiners have found a new rallying point courtesy of Independent News and Media.

Creating jobs in the public service at E23k a pop in IMHO was very expensive to create non jobs and what did we need more Civil Servants for we should have been shedding them. "23 k was the bottom of the scale and with increments goes up" -with all the improvements in technology what would we want them for? Dole payments for them would be cheaper or they could take up other jobs that might not be as attractive and cost us nothing.

OhNoYouDidn't

CDfm wrote: »

Creating jobs in the public service at E23k a pop in IMHO was very expensive to create non jobs and what did we need more Civil Servants for we should have been shedding them. "23 k was the bottom of the scale and with increments goes up" -with all the improvements in technology what would we want them for? Dole payments for them would be cheaper or they could take up other jobs that might not be as attractive and cost us nothing.

We should abolish the graduate entry point in the civil service because you consider them 'non-jobs' that could be done by machines?

This is surreal stuff.

CDfm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We should abolish the graduate entry point in the civil service because you consider them 'non-jobs' that could be done by machines?

This is surreal stuff.

if there is a staff surplus -sure why not- I dont see banks taking in grad recruits -what is there for them to do.

also- this whole idea of a fragmented civil service is a joke - why do we need so many specialists

its not a huge country

OhNoYouDidn't

CDfm wrote: »

if there is a staff surplus -sure why not- I dont see banks taking in grad recruits -what is there for them to do.

also- this whole idea of a fragmented civil service is a joke - why do we need so many specialists

its not a huge country

banks are taking in graduates, there is one across from me.

you are aware of the civil service hiring freeze that has been in place for about 3 years?

where does this idea of masses of civil servants doing nothing. Oh, thats right, the opinion pages of the Independent pages.

CDfm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

banks are taking in graduates, there is one across from me.

you are aware of the civil service hiring freeze that has been in place for about 3 years?

where does this idea of masses of civil servants doing nothing. Oh, thats right, the opinion pages of the Independent pages.

a job expands to fill the time alloted to it

the nature of CS work means there is no competition to exploit synergies or rationalise

you are in a bank - bet you wish you had joined the CS

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The more I read of this the more it occurs to me that the same commentators and pundits who defended tax evasion / avoidance and have been sniping at the tribunals are leading the charge against the public sector. They have simply moved the debate on. Now the middle class 'entrepreneurs' have to pay tax due to legal and cultural changes, the gripe is now what their tax money pays for, manifesting itself in somehow blaming the €23,000 clerical worker for the mess the triumverate of banks, property specualtors and Fianna Fail have created.

We do not have a highly paid public sector, with some exceptions at the top. Despite this there is a concerted effort to drive a wedge between people like me in the private sector who apparently should want those paid less than me in the public sector to be dragged down with me. I don't actually know anyone who begrudges the public sector their job security. It is an entirely contrived polemic.

The greasy till me féiners have found a new rallying point courtesy of Independent News and Media.

Hang on just because people believe that the puiblic sector has too much wastage, people being continaully employed even though they are lazy, inefficient, incompetent, negligent and in some cases criminal does not mean they condone the shengangains that have gone at the top in the banks or the greed and lack of social consience that has driven the builders and developers.

Stop trying to say anyone that questions how our public sector is run is either dumb enough to be led by the Indo or an apologist for the criminals and leeches that have frequented the tribunals.

FF led governments since 1997 have presided over a system where numbers were added to the public sector (e.g HSE administration), where wastage of taxpayers money (e.g Fás, HSE) was endemic, there was no move to become more efficient and pay awards were given under guise of producivity to keep public sector unions sweet.
Public sector employees sought and got pay to equal people working in private sector employment, even though they have perks (such as tenure of employment and pensions) that those private sector people they are trying to emulate never had.

How can we afford to keep the public sector going ?

Do we cut services to the end users, do we cut wage bill, do we raise taxes or do we borrow ourselves into oblivion ?
The scary thing is it will probably have to be all of above. :eek:

OhNoYouDidn't

CDfm wrote: »

a job expands to fill the time alloted to it

the nature of CS work means there is no competition to exploit synergies or rationalise

you are in a bank - bet you wish you had joined the CS

I left the public sector for the private as it happens. In hindsight, possibly a mistake, but was the right move for me at the time.

and you are on cloud cuckoo land if you think that the civil service is any less efficent than other large organisations, public or private. how much rationalisation or exploiting of synergies do you think goes on in the private sector at the moment? trust me, Ive seen both sides of the coin.

there are a lot of myths banging about in relation to the public sector

OhNoYouDidn't

jmayo wrote: »

Hang on just because people believe that the puiblic sector has too much wastage, people being continaully employed even though they are lazy, inefficient, incompetent, negligent and in some cases criminal

And how many of these scandals and wastage were caused by the coal face?

The issues are management and policitcal and all the hammering of Gardai, nurses etc will not change that one little bit.

I work in a bank and took a risk in doing so. I'll take my medicine. I have no appetite for economic or moral reasons to drag the public sector into the ground with me.

CDfm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I left the public sector for the private as it happens. In hindsight, possibly a mistake, but was the right move for me at the time.

and you are on cloud cuckoo land if you think that the civil service is any less efficent than other large organisations, public or private. how much rationalisation or exploiting of synergies do you think goes on in the private sector at the moment? trust me, Ive seen both sides of the coin.

there are a lot of myths banging about in relation to the public sector

I worked in the Public Service too for a period - IMHO its an empire building monolith-and you can be expected to have some affection and respect for your former colleagues and organisation

the organisation is still in the news on similar financial irregularities that happened when i was there and thats not this decade

for example how can you justify having the HSE and department of Health - one but not both surely

and i will bet your graduate was a pre -crisis hiree

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And how many of these scandals and wastage were caused by the coal face?

The issues are management and policitcal and all the hammering of Gardai, nurses etc will not change that one little bit.

I work in a bank and took a risk in doing so. I'll take my medicine. I have no appetite for economic or moral reasons to drag the public sector into the ground with me.

And how many of the coal face are admin staff pushing paper to each other, jobs created because new management levels were created and managers need staff.

Can you please respond to basic qestions I have asked ?
I keep asking how can we afford the public sector expense at the moment ?

Only one or two on the "public sector should be left alone" side has come up with any answers to this.
Even then pay cuts and redundancies don't usually figure in there.

Do we put income tax rates back to 62 % ?
Do we borrow until we are kicked out of the Eurozone and the IMF are at the door ?
Do we spend the next year having meetings between unions and government where there are discussion about early retirement, 4 day weeks, non replacement of retirees but yet no cut back on the expense of the wage bill ?

Do we adopt the easy target of laying off temp and contract staff who are probably nurses or doctors, which means the service to the end user is cut to shreds ?

Can you please answer these questions rather than spouting it is not their fault so they should not suffer.
We are all going to suffer.

Look at it this way ... if the boat is sinking do you refuse to bail out water because it is not your fault and thus it is someone elses problem ?