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Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

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    #392
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    321654 wrote: »
    And my personal favourite. A tax on anyone trying to put the blame on a single sector of the economy.
    Well banks should take the lion's share of the blame, but I'm assuming you're referring to people blaming the PS/CS: Nobody should be doing that, but at the same time it's right to ask that we see cuts and improvements made because their employer can no longer fully finance them.


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    #393
    p28559
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭p28559


    Lplated wrote: »
    On your first point/question, the answer is that you don't need to aspire to any level of customer service at all as your union kindly negotiated a benchmarking deal for you that did not include any level of efficiency or service targets.

    On the second point, the reason the private sector can throw stones is because where the private sector is inefficient as in the examples you gave, it is being inefficient with its own money, whereas when the public service is inefficient it is being so with all of our money.

    I agree that the major responsibility for the current recession comes from various actions by financial institutions across the globe - but... who, in law, was supposed to be regulating and overseeing those institutions? public servants! There was definately a failure by the private sector, but the failure by the public sector to stop those activities or at least curtail them is also a contibuting factor.

    I agree no one was moaning about the ps 18 months ago - because then we had 60 billion in income and could afford 60 billion of a public sector, now were are have 40 billion in income but unforutnately the ps will not be reduced by the amount necessary to meet this income shortfall.

    The young fella is showing remarkable ps traits... inability to do a job and calling someone else to sort it out for them .. bless them.



    my point was that the private sector can appear to be equally inefficient as the publiv sector. Not that aspiring to be as bad as some one else is a target. I would not agree that the private sector is being inefficient with its own money. What of shareholders or the customer...is it not their money that is wasted. No one would deny that there is waste in the public sector. No one could defend the idea of proper reform. I agree.

    I also agree that benchmarking liked public sector pay to private sector pay...whats goes up must come down..

    In terms of regulation the Civil Servants involved were boys chasing around after men...and rings were run around them...was it lack of interest, understanding or were they mislead...I dont know .

    in my opinion the 20billion shortfall has been reduced to the discussion on the 2billion in public sector pay....

    i dont see how having less gardai, teachers, nurses, doctors, dentists, people to gritt the roads, deal with floods, process higher education grants, allocation social housing, process social welfare, pick the litter, work in childcare, regulate the private sector financial instituations makes for a better country.

    overtime, allowances, over night expenses should all be done away with ...

    but the load has to be shared..........

    and you will be delighted to know that the young fella has mastered the new technology with out necessity for an increased allowance or a private sector trainer coming in and charging 1500 euro per day..... in addition he didnt require a relocation allowance when he was called in for dinner......


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    #394
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    CDfm wrote: »
    And you should be angry at the public sector for stealing this from you. Very angry.
    Looks like you've bought into the propaganda. The article in the Indo is bogus.

    You're being manipulated.

    Ask yourself this: what is the IN&M megacorp trying to distract you from?


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    #395
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Looks like you've bought into the propaganda. The article in the Indo is bogus.

    You're being manipulated.

    Ask yourself this: what is the IN&M megacorp trying to distract you from?

    My fathers Medical Card was stolen from him just a few months after reaching the age of entitlement. It was worth 5 0r 6000 a year to him at age 70. Thats such a con for years of work.

    I havent read the INDO article so lay your conspiracy theories elsewhere.


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    #396
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    ixoy wrote: »
    Well banks should take the lion's share of the blame, but I'm assuming you're referring to people blaming the PS/CS: Nobody should be doing that, but at the same time it's right to ask that we see cuts and improvements made because their employer can no longer fully finance them.

    THe banks were regulated by the CS/PS-were they not?

    Surely that makes them incompetant?


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    #397
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    p28559 wrote: »
    my point was that the private sector can appear to be equally inefficient as the publiv sector. Not that aspiring to be as bad as some one else is a target. I would not agree that the private sector is being inefficient with its own money. What of shareholders or the customer...is it not their money that is wasted. No one would deny that there is waste in the public sector. No one could defend the idea of proper reform. I agree.

    I also agree that benchmarking liked public sector pay to private sector pay...whats goes up must come down..

    The difference is in a private business it goes bust or the shareholders force change.


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    #398
    Delphic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    That's the point, is it not? Apply the same criteria to both and see how they far. What does proper reform mean? Something other than is being discussed here?


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    #399
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    CDfm wrote: »
    I havent read the INDO article so lay your conspiracy theories elsewhere.
    If you had not read the story, then why did you endorse the anger of people reacting to it?


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    #400
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Delphic wrote: »
    That's the point, is it not? Apply the same criteria to both and see how they far. What does proper reform mean? Something other than is being discussed here?

    It does.

    It means taking on the PS/CS and their Unions.

    It would also mean a decision by the main parties that such reform would go thru irrespective of who is in power.

    That would take balls.


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    #401
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    If you had not read the story, then why did you endorse the anger of people reacting to it?

    I have my own qualifications as an economist and dont need the INDO to tell me. I endorce their views because IMHO they are right but they dont go far enough and voice the ways it affects them.


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    #402
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    CDfm wrote: »
    The difference is in a private business it goes bust or the shareholders force change.
    Only and exclusively if it does not make money.

    Cartel members or near-monopolies that give inefficient service or sell buggy software, do quite nicely.


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    #403
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have my own qualifications as an economist and dont need the INDO to tell me. I endorce their views because IMHO they are right but they dont go far enough and voice the ways it affects them.
    But you didn't read the article in the Indo that was being referred to?


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    #404
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Only and exclusively if it does not make money.

    Cartel members or near-monopolies that give inefficient service or sell buggy software, do quite nicely.

    In the private sector that usually means someone forms a competing company.

    Eircom V NTL V Mobile BB

    Of course Mobile BB isn't at all a proper competitor to eircom but people leave eircom for it none the less just so it starts to offer an incentive for eircom to change.


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    #405
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    But you didn't read the article in the Indo that was being referred to?

    This whole Rip off Debate has been going on completely independently for some time. It seems to be news to many here and in the press.

    I am really surprised that Senior Civil Servants have never planned for such an eventallity especially in the aftermath of 9/11 when an economic meltdown could have occured.

    So can you honestly say that at a middle or senior level that the CS has planned for a recession - no way.


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    #406
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    In the private sector that usually means someone forms a competing company
    Or UPC vs Sky, Microsoft vs ??

    But the point is that the profit motive does not necessarily lead to excellent customer service. Indeed, the best profit is made from barely-tolerable customer service. Usually what happens is that customer service is good while market share is being captured. But once the customers are locked into contracts and the opposition driven out of business, quality of service is cut back (and out-sourced to Bangla-cutta).

    Criticising the PS for not providing instantaneous and excellent customer service and also looking for this to be at minimal cost is unreasonable as this does not actually happen in the private sector.


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    #407
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Or UPC vs Sky, Microsoft vs ??

    But the point is that the profit motive does not necessarily lead to excellent customer service. Indeed, the best profit is made from barely-tolerable customer service. Usually what happens is that customer service is good while market share is being captured. But once the customers are locked into contracts and the opposition driven out of business, quality of service is cut back (and out-sourced to Bangla-cutta).

    Criticising the PS for not providing instantaneous and excellent customer service and also looking for this to be at minimal cost is unreasonable as this does not actually happen in the private sector.

    People aren't looking for it at minimal cost. Their looking for it at the price the country can afford.

    Since we can't afford it, we need to reduce pay, lay off workers or outsource it to somewhere we can afford it (which of course won't be done).

    If companies customer service is bad, people are free to change provider. But people only need customer service from a company when things aren't going well. 90% of people don't ever need to ring customer service so that is very different to someone in the public sector. Most people that experience bad customer service will then change provider or at least should and in some cases the company will give the customer a benefit if customer service has been poor such as a free month of the service. This can't happen in the public sector.

    So you can't draw direct comparisons like that. The simple fact is that we can't afford the public service at the current price. The public sector needs to wake up to this fact and stop saying you work hard because how hard you work is irrelevant if continuing to pay you, your current wage bankrupts the country then you have to go or accept a pay cut at the least.


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    #408
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    thebman wrote: »
    People aren't looking for it at minimal cost. Their looking for it at the price the country can afford. Since we can't afford it, we need to reduce pay, lay off workers or outsource it to somewhere we can afford it (which of course won't be done).
    Indeed, despite the Indo's hysterical non-fact-based headline, pay cuts, levies and reduced services are on the way.


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    #409
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    thebman wrote: »
    People aren't looking for it at minimal cost. Their looking for it at the price the country can afford.

    Since we can't afford it, we need to reduce pay, lay off workers or outsource it to somewhere we can afford it (which of course won't be done).

    YUP - a great idea - there are plenty of government departments that could do with a cull,

    Arts, Culture etc is just handing out money. Deot of Health is just a double up of the HSE -so you get rid of any that duplicate work. Dept of Overseas Aid -well we cant afford the 1 billion we pay out with our deficit so get rid of that.

    If you cant have paycuts based on benchmarking to the private sector -then have a cull. Its the next best thing and is just the shock these people need.


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    #410
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    RobBrn wrote: »
    We are on the verge of an apartied society.

    On one side
    Private sector workers.

    Wage freezes
    Wage cuts
    Job insecurity
    Job loses
    Pension doubts

    On the other side
    Public Sector Workers

    No Wage freeze
    Absolutely no wage cuts.
    No job insecurity
    Absolutely no job losses
    Pensions guaranteed to increase

    And all homeowners will have to pay a property tax to keep the public sector workers in their sumptuous lifestyle.

    Remind you of anywhere

    Try South Africa - some years ago
    Private sector – non-white
    Public Sector - white

    Have to agree with you there. I have a number of friends who work in the sale of luxury goods and services... they say 95% of their customers in the past few months are from the public sector. Its quite extraordinary .

    The top people paid by the taxpayer need their wages + perks cut by 50%, the rest of the public service by 30%. Then we will be in line with the rest of the world.


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    #411
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Have to agree with you there. I have a number of friends who work in the sale of luxury goods and services... they say 95% of their customers in the past few months are from the public sector. Its quite extraordinary .
    Strange, that. I've never been asked whether I was a public sector worker when purchasing luxury (or any other) goods.
    The top people paid by the taxpayer need their wages + perks cut by 50%, the rest of the public service by 30%. Then we will be in line with the rest of the world.
    Perhaps we should align private sector wages with the rest of the world also.

    How much is the worldwide average industrial wage, do you suppose?


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    #412
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jimmmy wrote: »
    The top people paid by the taxpayer need their wages + perks cut by 50%, the rest of the public service by 30%. Then we will be in line with the rest of the world.

    I agree


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    #413
    gazzer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,049 ✭✭✭gazzer


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Have to agree with you there. I have a number of friends who work in the sale of luxury goods and services... they say 95% of their customers in the past few months are from the public sector. Its quite extraordinary .

    The top people paid by the taxpayer need their wages + perks cut by 50%, the rest of the public service by 30%. Then we will be in line with the rest of the world.

    Ah sure why stop there. Why dont we then make sure that the private sector wages are in line with the rest of the world? I am a civil servent and I can tell you now that I am not buying luxury goods and services. How does your friend know that 95% of his customers are from the public sector?
    Im really getting sick of this public sector bashing.

    To the people here who give out about Public Sector pensions let me ask you this? At what age did you start to pay into your pension scheme. How many of you started at 19 like I did?


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    #414
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    gazzer wrote: »
    Ah sure why stop there. Why dont we then make sure that the private sector wages are in line with the rest of the world? I am a civil servent and I can tell you now that I am not buying luxury goods and services. How does your friend know that 95% of his customers are from the public sector?
    Im really getting sick of this public sector bashing.

    To the people here who give out about Public Sector pensions let me ask you this? At what age did you start to pay into your pension scheme. How many of you started at 19 like I did?

    Private sector wages are determined by market forces in a small open free market economy. Like it or not CS pay rates are not and if they were benchmarked to the private sector how do they compare. They are inflated.

    BTW -what do uou contribute to your pension and what does that buy you. Are the terms generous.


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    #415
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    gazzer wrote: »
    To the people here who give out about Public Sector pensions let me ask you this? At what age did you start to pay into your pension scheme. How many of you started at 19 like I did?

    That would be your guaranteed final benefit Non-Contributory State Pension, then?

    I'm self-employed and have been paying into my private Eagle Star pension fund since my mid-20's. Right now I'm afraid to look at how much it's worth, but around the start of last year is was worth about 80% of the total contributions I put into it.

    In other words, I would have been better off had I just stashed my pension money under the mattress.

    There are pensions, and then there are Eagle Star Public Service pensions.

    Sorry dude, no sympathy for those in the Civil Service when I consider your guaranteed pension, daily breaks at 11am and 3pm, banking days and your Christmas Shopping day.


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    #416
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    That would be your guaranteed final benefit Non-Contributory State Pension, then?

    I'm self-employed and have been paying into my private Eagle

    Sorry dude, no sympathy for those in the Civil Service when I consider your guaranteed pension, daily breaks at 11am and 3pm, banking days and your Christmas Shopping day.


    WEll CS guy -how about a response?


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    #417
    gazzer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,049 ✭✭✭gazzer


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    That would be your guaranteed final benefit Non-Contributory State Pension, then?

    I'm self-employed and have been paying into my private Eagle Star pension fund since my mid-20's. Right now I'm afraid to look at how much it's worth, but around the start of last year is was worth about 80% of the total contributions I put into it.

    In other words, I would have been better off had I just stashed my pension money under the mattress.

    There are pensions, and then there are Eagle Star Public Service pensions.

    Sorry dude, no sympathy for those in the Civil Service when I consider your guaranteed pension, daily breaks at 11am and 3pm, banking days and your Christmas Shopping day.

    Not looking for sympathy dude. BTW I dont take breaks at 11am and 3pm. I have a cup of tea at my computer and still work. Banking days (???) the xmas shopping HALF day is a joke. I would happily give that up.

    How do you know that your pension will not be worth more by the time you retire. Why didnt you just put the money under the matress then?? You decicded to put it into Eagle Star. If I had my 40 years service worked and retired tomorrow I would be on a pension of 400 euro a week. Therefore I would be on approx 180 a week more than somebody on the non contributory pension. I dont think that is a lot more considering I will have paid into the pension for 40 years.

    All of my friends who work in the private sector are on way better money than me. I dont begrudge them that. Yet because I chose to take a career path into the public sector where I work hard and managed to get myself 3 promotions over the years suddenly I am enemy number one.


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    #418
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    gazzer wrote: »
    How do you know that your pension will not be worth more by the time you retire.
    As I'm not currently in possession of a crystal ball, I don't know what it will be worth.

    My argument is that my pension is not guaranteed to be x% of my final salary. Yours is.

    I generally dislike the whole public vs private sector argument, there is shocking levels of wastage in both sectors.

    Sure, those in the private sector may earn more, but having 100% job security and a state pension are very tangible benefits that in my mind, more than make up the difference in direct salary.


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    #419
    gazzer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,049 ✭✭✭gazzer


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    As I'm not currently in possession of a crystal ball, I don't know what it will be worth.

    My argument is that my pension is not guaranteed to be x% of my final salary. Yours is.

    I generally dislike the whole public vs private sector argument, there is shocking levels of wastage in both sectors.

    Sure, those in the private sector may earn more, but having 100% job security and a state pension are very tangible benefits that in my mind, more than make up the difference in direct salary.

    Thats a fair enough response and I agree with you.. there is a lot to be said for a state pension. I dont agree with you though on the job security because since 1995 CS can and do be fired. I have seen it happen numerous times over the years.

    I dont like the whole public vs private sector argument either because like you say there is wastage in both areas. I have spent years getting slagged by my friends in the private sector because they earn more than me and they get great perks etc. I dont begrudge them that though because they took their chances in the private sector and they did well. Im just a bit fed up with what seems to be public sector bashing that is going on at the moment. I work damn hard and have done for all my years here. I would happily sacrifice some of my pay if it meant that people are not going to lose their jobs. My problem is that I dont trust the government to use the money correctly.

    Its my personal opinion that instead of the increasing arguments between the private and public sector and going around in circles as to who works harder than who etc we should be directing our anger on the government and their shocking wastage of the billions of euro that we had in surplus. I know that a portion of this was wasted on needless quangos and a vast increase in PS staff (especially in the HSE) etc and I agree that if staff are not needed in one area then they should be sent to work in another area that needs staff or else let the staff member go. However then you have the situation where even more people are on the dole queues Surely we should be also be targetting our anger at the horrible conditions in A&E and the vastly inflated property bubble and the fact that the government are using millions of taxpayers money on the homechoice scheme in a further attempt to prop up their builder buddies.

    If I had my way Bertie Ahern would be strung by the gonads from the top of the Spire, closely followed by Brian Cowen.


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    #420
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    That would be your guaranteed final benefit Non-Contributory State Pension, then?

    I'm self-employed and have been paying into my private Eagle Star pension fund since my mid-20's. Right now I'm afraid to look at how much it's worth, but around the start of last year is was worth about 80% of the total contributions I put into it.

    In other words, I would have been better off had I just stashed my pension money under the mattress.

    There are pensions, and then there are Eagle Star Public Service pensions.

    Sorry dude, no sympathy for those in the Civil Service when I consider your guaranteed pension, daily breaks at 11am and 3pm, banking days and your Christmas Shopping day.

    Great post. I have no sympathy for those in the Civil Service either, when I see their high pay for what they do, their job security etc.


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    #421
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    gazzer wrote: »
    Not looking for sympathy dude. BTW I dont take breaks at 11am and 3pm. I have a cup of tea at my computer and still work. Banking days (???) the xmas shopping HALF day is a joke. I would happily give that up.

    All of my friends who work in the private sector are on way better money than me. I dont begrudge them that. Yet because I chose to take a career path into the public sector where I work hard and managed to get myself 3 promotions over the years suddenly I am enemy number one.

    I think you probably misunderstand me anyway-some jobs pay more because of the risk involved. There is no job security in what I do.

    Market forces or legislation could finish my industry in the morning or the company I work for. PS workers dont work under that type of pressure.

    The Public Sector has a particular type of ethos and culture which means to progress you need to be on "message" or whatever. I am not saying you benefited from this but an Irish Civil Servant would not be the same or viewed in the same way with Public sector to private sector mobility as say a french technocrat.Of course, you do what you have to to climb the ladder but it also gets you socialised to think and act a particular way.

    The sector expands and sort of empire builds - you wouldnt get a Govt Dept just putting itself out of a job. Say once TB and Polio were irradicated the DOH extra workers would have been absorbed. So part of its dynamic is to "empire build" and inflate its own importance and extend its influence.Also- the public service has been used as a job creation mechanism and this probably has been done deliberately.

    I hope you dont think Im being unfair - but Im just trying to explain the dynamics as I see them. This of course means the burden is on taxes. A bit harsh on the rest of us now the economy is in the sh1t5.


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