Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

Sorry, made a mistake, it isn't 110K but definitely is 97K a year for the librarian...

An ordinary librarian shuffling books? The head of a library? all the libraries in the country.....?

weiss

head of a library.

may have some clerical duties but not worth €97K, you could employ 2 nurses for that money...but the librarian is obviously money better spent.

don't forget the 2 financial controllers costing total of €240K, it seems alot of the public sector need 2 people to do 1 job...

97i9y3941

Front page of todays independent

source-http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pay-gap-widens-as-public-sector-earns-25pc-more-1891959.html

Pay gap widens as public sector earns 25pc more

By John Walshe
Monday September 21 2009

PUBLIC workers are now earning 25pc more than private sector employees, new figures reveal.

A new report by the State's economic thinktank published this week will reveal that the pay gap between public and private workers has widened dramatically.

The study by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) shows the average gap in earnings more than doubled from 9.7pc in 2003 to just over 21pc in October 2006.

When pensions are added in, the gap jumps a further 3pc -- to almost 25pc on average.

The report also shows the differential between the public and private sectors is higher in Ireland than in most other EU countries.

The findings will be seized upon by the Government, which is preparing to announce pay cuts for more than 300,000 civil servants, teachers, nurses, gardai, local authority staff, HSE and state body employees in the public sector.

The pay cuts will provoke a furious reaction from public sector unions.

But the Government has been left with little option as it desperately seeks to bolster the dwindling public finances, with almost three-quarters of state spending going on public sector salaries and social welfare.

Fianna Fail sources also indicated it would be slightly easier to "sell" reductions in social welfare allowances if they were accompanied by public sector pay cuts in the December Budget, which is being billed as the toughest yet.

The latest ESRI figures compare rates of pay in the civil service, education, health, defence, commercial and non-commercial semi-state bodies, and local authorities with pay in the private sector. Contrary to popular belief, the biggest pay gap is not at the top of the public service but at the lower end. In some cases, they earn up to a third more.

In other words, a typical Leaving Cert student going into the public service will earn considerably more than a student going into a similar job in the private sector.

Salaries

The ESRI study examines in detail salaries in the manufacturing, construction, wholesale, transport, financial intermediation, education (private), health (private) and other services -- and compares them with the public sector.

The sectoral analysis is carried out for both 2003 and 2006.

It updates and deepens research published at the end of last year by ESRI researchers Elish Kelly, Seamus McGuinness and Philip O'Connell.

The main differences in the new study are that it takes pensions into account and that it "drills down" deeper into more direct comparisons between employees in the two sectors. This allows for closer assessment of the extent to which wage differentials have changed over the three years.

The ESRI has shown that the pay gap widened as a result of the report of the benchmarking body, which recommended average rises of 8.9pc for the 138 public service grades examined.

The separate Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service had recommended a 7.5pc interim increase to basic salary for all the groups within its remit. Half of the increase recommended by the review body was paid out in July 2005 and the rest the following January.

Those salaries are again being reviewed for many at the top, including judges and politicians; and a further report, due shortly, is expected to recommend a reduction.

The ESRI is holding a research seminar at its offices in Whitaker Square, Sir John Rogerson's Quay, Dublin 2, at 4pm on October 8 on the theme: The Public-Private Sector Pay Gap in Ireland: What Lies Beneath?

- John Walshe

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

head of a library.

may have some clerical duties but not worth €97K,

So you don't actually know the full duties of this person?

jimmmy

Most of the librarians in any public libraries I have been in seem to think standing around chatting to each other ( about social activities, holidays etc ) is part of their duties.

Why should a worker in a library be paid more than, for example the prime minister of New Zealand, a country with approx. the same population as Ireland ?

97i9y3941

i suspect a threat of a strike and crocodile tears soon with this story

Budget to consider public sector pay
Monday, 21 September 2009 13:51

The Taoiseach has said the issue of public sector pay and pensions is something that will be considered in December's Budget.

Brian Cowen was speaking in Tullamore this morning.

His comments come as a new report by the Economic and Social Research Institute show that State employees were earning up to 25% more than private sector workers in 2006.


The authors of the new report comparing public and private sector pay say their findings show there was no justification for increases in 2007 benchmarking.

More increases would further undermine Ireland's current drive to regain competitiveness, the report says.

Authors Elish Kelly, Seamus McGuinness and Philip O'Connell stress that this latest research does not capture the effect of the last year's downturn, or the State pension levy.

However, they say the results raise serious questions regarding the justification for any further boost in pay for State employees.

The ESRI found that in 2003, public sector workers earned on average 9.7% more than their private sector counterparts. By 2006 that gap had risen to 21.6%.

However, the pay gap widens to almost 25% when the value of public sector pensions is factored in.

The authors also note that their estimate of the benefit of a public sector pension is conservative.

The ESRI report does not take account of the value of guaranteed job security when employed by the State.

It finds that the gap is particularly acute among junior staff - with some of those in lower level State grades earning up to 31% more.

Senior State employees earn on average 8% more than private sector senior workers.

Male State employees earn on average 23% more than men in the private sector.

Female State employees earn 21% more than women in equivalent private sector positions.

The authors point to a warning from the International Monetary Fund that generous increases in public wages contributed to a drop in competitiveness in recent years by pushing up wages in other sectors of the economy.

This morning Mr Cowen said the Government was committed to a carbon tax measure in the next Budget.

He said Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan would begin to frame his Budget in the context of that.

Mr Cowen said bridging the gap between Government expenditure and what is coming in through taxation remained the challenge of the Budget.



Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0921/economy.html

weiss

Nodin wrote:

So you don't actually know the full duties of this person?

walks around telling people to "ssshh" the odd time, read the newspaper...haven't seen much else.

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

Most(.....)population as Ireland ?

Why is it, "Jimmy", that regardless of what anyone says with regards to anyone in the civil service, you'll be sure to come up with a badly composed generalised anecdote that contains the message that whoever it is, whatever they're profession, they are useless, dossing, and are having it better than some one else?

And don't come back with some faceitious answer please.

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

walks around telling people to "ssshh" the odd time, read the newspaper...haven't seen much else.

You work in the same place?

weiss

Nodin, if you're trying to justify to me being paid 97K for working as librarian, don't bother.

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

Nodin, if you're trying to justify to me being paid 97K for working as librarian, don't bother.

No, I'm trying to get a detailed job description from you, who is so heart-set on saying that its overpaid. So far, you're coming up bone dry.

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

Why is it, "Jimmy", that regardless of what anyone says with regards to anyone in the civil service, you'll be sure to come up with a badly composed generalised anecdote that contains the message that whoever it is, whatever they're profession, they're useless, dossing, and are having it better than some one else?

And don't come back with some faceitious answer please.

Well, as far as my generalisation goes, my experience of the Public Sector is of inefficient process's and unmotivated people.

Think of the closest you have ever been to the Public Sector, when you were a school student. I can honestly say, I had 3 good teachers in my entire time in secondary education. That is 3 out of at least 20.

If people are not held accountable for their performance... they will not be motivated/efficient!!!

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

Well, as far as my generalisation goes, my experience of the Public Sector is of inefficient process's and unmotivated people.

Think of the closest you have ever been to the Public Sector, when you were a school student. I can honestly say, I had 3 good teachers in my entire time in secondary education. That is 3 out of at least 20.

If people are not held accountable for their performance... they will not be motivated/efficient!!!

....none of which really goes anywhere close to providing any specfic background on what I've been discussing for the last few posts.

weiss

Nodin, let me guess. you're a public sector worker?

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

....none of which really goes anywhere close to providing any specfic background on what I've been discussing for the last few posts.

I was starting a new discussion with you. I wanted your perspective on my (and many others) view of the public sector, and the unsatisfactory service we get from it.

Can the public sector not multi-task??..
(that was a joke.. before you throw your toys outta the pram!)

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

Nodin, let me guess. you're a public sector worker?

Nope, not now, not ever.

You're selecting a figure and saying "x" is not worth it. However, you've nothing seemingly to back this up, save the "blame public servants" mentality. Scapegoating is the term, I think.

Now, if you've a detailed breakdown of the specific details of this job that earns 97K, this would be the time to produce it. Who knows, you might even be right.

weiss

there are no details.

person has been in the job along time, maintains a few subscriptions to newspapers, magazines..tells people to "ssh" if they're talking too loud.. - there is really nothing more complicated than this.

jimmmy

Nodin wrote: »

this job that earns 97K

I doubt the worker in the library "earns" the 97k per year...it would not suprise me if the govt gave the worker that ( plus all the other benefits , pension etc ), but "earns" somehow implies the person does a fair days work for a fair days pay...that the pay is deserved...:rolleyes:.
The state employee who receives 97 k, not earns 97 k.

skelliser

simple, what level is this person at?
an higher grade eo which i imagine is where a librarian would fit in, would be looking at ~67,000 after 17 years service.
go here http://www.publicjobs.ie/en/civilservice/salary-scaling.asp, download the payscale and tell me where you are getting 97k

im sick of this anti public service spin, cant you see this is ff spin to divert attention from them ruining the country. Looking at that payscales for engineers,accountants and architects, you wont see that salary after 17 years in the private sector, i can assure you.
I dont dont work in the public service btw so dont label me.

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

there are no details.

I noted that. Nor can you provide any information save in anecdotal form. Thus, you have no case.

Jimmy wrote:

..... doubt the worker in the library "earns" the ....

.........as you do with every public sector worker you light on, with the same monotone waffle, lack of detailed information and general crap, every dreary time you comment on the issue. You've no interest in reform of the public sector, you're just here to repeat your odd notions to whoever would listen, like some demonic stereotype Taxi driver on the way to hell.

Either put up, or drop it, please.

weiss

Nodin, what is it exactly you think a librarian does?
What do most librarians do?

optocynic

weiss wrote: »

Nodin, what is it exactly you think a librarian does?
What do most librarians do?

Even if the Librarian was there 17 years.. are we claiming the 67k is ok?
67k a year, to sort and stack books etc.

This is what social partnership gets us!

skelliser

im not sure if 67k is correct tho without knowing the grade a librarian is. id hazard a guess that its lower, probably around the 50 mark for 17years.

its a long way from 120k and 97k nonsense above.
get real, thats more then an engineer ffs!

weiss

skelliser, you misquoted me, even after pointing out in earlier post that it was 2 financial controllers getting paid 120K each.
i'll forgive you though

And why do they need 2 people for 1 job? maybe you can explain that to me.is it so 1 guy can continue working while the other is off playing golf?

i initially said the librarian got 110K which i acknowledged was a mistake.

librarian is paid 97K a year (managing a deputy, a senior assistant and loads of other assistants... deputy assistants..etc you know how it is in a busy library), and if you find that difficult to believe, i'm not really surprised.

i'm not scapegoating the public sector for economic problems.
i've always known they were incompetent and unaccountable for anything, i didn't recently jump on the bandwagon

anniehoo

skelliser wrote: »

120k for a librarian! you must be some tool to believe that!

Hate to tell ya you're wrong Skelliser but have a look
http://www.ucd.ie/hr/add/salary_scales/scales.htm

I am public sector employee but even i agree this is just ridiculous.Click on Librarian scale on the left.

skelliser

so what your saying now is this guy is the manager or head of a library, thats a far cry from stacking shelves now isnt it.
i still dont think thats the true salary.

If we are going to have a debate on ps pay levels it needs to be backed with clear and real stats not hearsay and cheap jibes.

as far as im concerned this is a nice little diversion from the other 50billion bailout of ff friends, nice coincidence isnt it!

skelliser

anniehoo wrote: »

Hate to tell ya you're wrong Skelliser but have a look
http://www.ucd.ie/hr/add/salary_scales/scales.htm

I am public sector employee but even i agree this is just ridiculous.Click on Librarian scale on the left.

ok, shocking as it his, weiss was emplying that a ordinary shelve stacker was earning that amount.

weiss

skelliser, the definition of a librarian is:

The keeper, manager of a library; One who cares for the publications, files etc. in a library, whether staff or volunteer; A person who processes and organizes information

It doesn't get anymore complicated than this and as you can see from the link anniehoo pointed out, it's not lies.

murphaph

Jesus H Christ, ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY GRAND a year for stacking books?! No wonder Ireland is on the rocks. This largesse is clearly either going to have to be reversed or Ireland as an economy will go bankrupt.

jimmmy

murphaph wrote: »

Jesus H Christ, ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY GRAND a year for stacking books?!

And if thats true then the pension is a lump free tax sum of TWO HUNDRED AND TEN THOUSAND GRAND tax free and SEVENTY GRAND a year.

No wonder the country is in the mess its in.