Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

P. Breathnach

weiss wrote: »

skelliser, the definition of a librarian is:

The keeper, manager of a library; One who cares for the publications, files etc. in a library, whether staff or volunteer; A person who processes and organizes information

It doesn't get anymore complicated than this and as you can see from the link anniehoo pointed out, it's not lies.

It gets a lot more complicated than that, but why let the truth get in the way of a good rant?

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It gets a lot more complicated than that, but why let the truth get in the way of a good rant?

A hundred and forty grand's worth of complicated though?;)

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

And if thats true ...

Then again, it's probably not true. But I can see how this statement would pander to your prejudices.

jimmmy wrote: »

No wonder the country is in the mess its in.

It was the private sector, not the public sector that broke the banks.

And it's high property costs, set up by the private sector that jacked up pay demands all round to pay high mortgages & has made us all uncompetitive.

walshb

RobBrn wrote: »

Are we really being ripped of by the public sector.

They never miss a pay increase.
They get "benchmarking" which is really just an electoral bribe.
They get massive pensions.
They can't be sacked.
They decide how much we should pay to them so they can have wages far in excess of private workers.
They get huge mileage allowances
They get huge over night allowances - un-vouched.
They threaten strike at the drop of a hat.
They are backed up by politicians , Regardless

The recent debacle with FAS is just an example. Probably just the exposure of the "Tip of the Iceberg"

Is it not time that we demanded an end to this in equality, only equaled in the former USSR

The whole system is geared towards money and more money and more money. The gravy train stops at every stop in the Public Sector, from Cowen right down...

walshb

E.T. wrote: »

Ever hear of sweeping generalisations? Who do you include in public service workers? Do you include the Gardai? Nurses? Teachers?

It's rotten right thru....

weiss

P. Breathnach wrote:

It gets a lot more complicated than that, but why let the truth get in the way of a good rant?

If you'd be so kind to explain the complications of a librarian duties, I'd be honoured.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

It was the private sector, not the public sector that broke the banks..

Who 'regulates' banking for the ordinary Joe? I'd say it was a combination of greedy banking practices coupled with non-existant regulation from the public sector who were/are paid by the taxpayer to regulate our banks for us.

NewDubliner wrote: »

And it's high property costs, set up by the private sector that jacked up pay demands all round to pay high mortgages & has made us all uncompetitive.

I'd say this was ultimately a political failure. Why were so many tax benefits made available to buy to let landlords by the politicians? I KNOW a few guards who have there second/third/fourth BTL property as their 'pension top up'. A LOT of PAYE people in the public AND private sector lost the run of themselves. Property developers could only sell apartments for what people would pay for them. A lot of people, it turns out, were paying a lot more than they should. Perhaps if the people buying these houses had taken a look outside Ireland to compare property prices in other Western European countries they'd have thought twice about buying. It's too easy to blame greedy developers. NOBODY had a gun to their head when buying this property at obviously inflated prices.

Irish people often want to shirk all personal responsibility and blame everyone else. Sometimes it is someone else's fault but sometimes it's not!

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Who 'regulates' banking for the ordinary Joe? I'd say it was a combination of greedy banking practices coupled with non-existant regulation from the public sector who were/are paid by the taxpayer to regulate our banks for us.

The primary blame rests with the banksnot the regulators who were controlled by the government, itself in hock to the property developers and the banks.

murphaph wrote: »

Irish people often want to shirk all personal responsibility and blame everyone else. Sometimes it is someone else's fault but sometimes it's not!

By dumping the entire blame/bill on the public sector.

The current campaign by the 'Independent' a loss-making publication pushing the agenda of its oligarch owners is part of an agenda is for widespread privitisation of public services, off-shoring of the work, followed by eye-watering price increases to pay off the money they pay the government....to save the banks and property developers.

irish_bob

NewDubliner wrote: »

The primary blame rests with the banksnot the regulators who were controlled by the government, itself in hock to the property developers and the banks.

By dumping the entire blame/bill on the public sector.

The current campaign by the 'Independent' a loss-making publication pushing the agenda of its oligarch owners is part of an agenda is for widespread privitisation of public services, off-shoring of the work, followed by eye-watering price increases to pay off the money they pay the government....to save the banks and property developers.

surely we can have one media outlet that favours private over public , the state sector has the irish times , rte and vincent browne on tv 3 , besides , i dont need the indo to tell me the ps is ineficent and over paid , i see it all the time and i know how much police , nurses and teachers earn in other countries which are richer than us

Nodin

weiss wrote: »

It doesn't get anymore complicated than this and as you can see from the link anniehoo pointed out, it's not lies.

You've no facts on the matter. You're pulling generalised waffle from the net and trying to apply it to a specific person about whose duties you know absolutely and utterly nothing.


When you can get a list of the specific duties and responsibilities of the specific person earning that level of cash, then you can criticise all you want.

NewDubliner

irish_bob wrote: »

surely we can have one media outlet that favours private over public ,

You said it...it's biased. Even then, its agenda favours big business, The paper is in huge debt and has to pay the piper.

irish_bob wrote: »

the state sector has the irish times , rte and vincent browne on tv 3

Of these only RTE is in the state sector and is owned by the government, not the PS.

irish_bob wrote: »

, i see it all the time and i know how much police , nurses and teachers earn in other countries which are richer than us

But have lower costs of living due to having to pay on inflated mortgages to the private sector. Any chance the private sector will take a cut on repayments?

P. Breathnach

weiss wrote: »

If you'd be so kind to explain the complications of a librarian duties, I'd be honoured.

I couldn't be bothered. I know what lynch mobs are like.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

But have lower costs of living due to having to pay on inflated mortgages to the private sector. Any chance the private sector will take a cut on repayments?

Private sector workers don't get a "private sector discount" from AIB or BOI on their mortgage repayments :rolleyes:

The banks are a law unto themselves which, coupled with shoddy regulation (the job of the public sector) led to a lot of this mess. Equating a private sector PAYE worker in a US multinational (for example) to the Bank of Ireland is plain stupid.

All employees, in the private AND public sector need to realise that just because they bought an expensive (overpriced) house, does not mean the rest of the world gives a sh!t and isn't going to pay more for irish exports to pay higher wages to pay the mortgages to the banks. Irish people (collectively) allowed property to become what it became and now must collectively pay the price. A PAYE private sector worker had as much control over the price of houses as a PAYE public sector worker. Why should a PAYE private sector worker now be taxed to oblivion/lose his job while the public sector are spared (or at least heavily insulated from it) the pain?

Paying ANY librarian 140k is just disgusting tbh.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I couldn't be bothered.

Yet you try to justify the pay and pensions of librarians and other public servants ?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I know what lynch mobs are like.

Nobody mentioned lynch mobs only yourself, and they have nothing to do with it.

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

Yet you try to justify the pay and pensions of librarians and other public servants ?
.

Well what facts do you bring to the table "Jimmy"? A single person, described as a "Librarian" is earning a large sum.

What do you know of that individuals specific duties to say that they are overpaid?

Tayto2000

weiss wrote: »

skelliser, the definition of a librarian is:

The keeper, manager of a library; One who cares for the publications, files etc. in a library, whether staff or volunteer; A person who processes and organizes information

It doesn't get anymore complicated than this and as you can see from the link anniehoo pointed out, it's not lies.

Oh, but it does get a lot more complicated than that. Those are job titles, not job descriptions, quoting a dictionary definition is meaningless. The shelf stackers and people you will generally see working at the issue desks (and for whom you seem have so much disdain) would be Library Assistants. Have a look at what they get paid. The Librarian scale is for the heads of the library services in these places which is a senior management area, hence senior management salary, which was (rightly or wrongly) established under benchmarking.

jimmmy

lol lol. In the last public library I was in, both the "senior management" lol and the other librarians done the same work / stood around chatting behind the desk. Oh, maybe the job is highly stressful and complicated, with little job security and long hours.....I am sure the salaries are justified:rolleyes:

jimmmy

murphaph wrote: »

Paying ANY librarian 140k is just disgusting tbh.

Agreed, and as I said "if thats true then the pension is a lump free tax sum of TWO HUNDRED AND TEN THOUSAND GRAND tax free and SEVENTY GRAND a year. No wonder the country is in the mess its in. "

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

lol lol. (....):rolleyes:

And here you are again with yet more anecdotal generalised nonsense.

Wheres the facts?

jimmmy wrote: »

Agreed, and (....)s in the mess its in. "

Spamming your own posts?

weiss

Tayto2000 wrote:

Oh, but it does get a lot more complicated than that...

Be so kind to enlighten everyone here on the complicated duties that go with being a librarian, I'd personally love to know.

Riskymove

Paying ANY librarian 140k is just disgusting tbh.

Of course, but does this actually exist?


From advert for DCC Librarian

The salary scale for the position of Librarian is:-

€40,607 - €41,956 - €43,305 - €44,656 - €46,004 (Maximum) - €47,567 (1st LSI) (after 3 years satisfactory service on the Maximum) - €49,129 (2nd LSI) (after 3 years satisfactory service on the 1st LSI)

from National library

KEEPER (Head of Department)
Duties include leading and overseeing the management of a major department of the Library and contributing to the Library’s strategic planning.
Salary Scale: €73,390 – €91,594 (different payscales may apply to existing civil/public servants).
ASSISTANT KEEPER GRADE II / SYSTEMS LIBRARIAN
Duties include implementing and supporting the Library Management System and other information systems in use in the Library.
Salary Scale: €34,126 – €66,974 (different pay scales may apply to existing civil/public servants).

University librarians

Deputy librarian University

(Payscale Code 04A) 1 84,313 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

2 88,579 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

3 92,533 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

4 97,107 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

5 101,351 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016


ASSISTANT LIBRARIAN


Post April 1995:
(Payscale Code 57A) 1 50,213 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

2 52,452 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

3 54,793 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

4 56,588 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

5 58,450 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

6 60,282 01/09/2008 2.5% T2016

As you can see the scale for a public librarian (see DCC example) is much different to that in a University but the jobs are quite different I'd say

as for €140,000 p.a. I have not yet found any at that level



EDIT: The "librarian grade" seems to be up around that level alright but is the head of the library rather than someone working stacking shelves etc

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Agreed, and as I said "if thats true then the pension is a lump free tax sum of TWO HUNDRED AND TEN THOUSAND GRAND tax free and SEVENTY GRAND a year. No wonder the country is in the mess its in. "

and if a librarian was paid €300,000, there would be a lump sum tax free of FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND and ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY GRAND a year

and so on and so on

never mind any actual evidence for this, lets just be amazed at what would be the case if such a thing existed

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

As you can see the scale for a public librarian (see DCC example) is much different to that in a University but the jobs are quite different I'd say

especially in June, July + August lol lol.

Ah shure someone has to do it.

Riskymove wrote: »

as for €140,000 p.a. I have not yet found any at that level

The people who havve those jobs must be keeping quiet about them...maybe they describe themselves as librarian supervisors or managers or something ?:). Or they had extra qualifications leading to higher pay ? Or extra responsibility ? All joking aside, ask the person who said they were paid the 140k.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

All joking aside, ask the person who said they were paid the 140k.

they got that the same as I did...by actually trying to look for it not just based on anecdotal tales

its clear the €140,000 the poster talked about is for the Head of the UCD Library

now I dont know what he does but its unlikely to be stacking shelves with books etc


if there is anything to learn from this thread its the further indications of how crazy pay is in the education area, particularly third level, which is generally overlooked when everyone talks about education as being primary and secondary teachers alone

Health is the first area that needs tackling, starting with the HSE

followed by education, starting with third level


this is why I am so against a blanket across the board cut. a real, robust examination is required

Tayto2000

jimmmy wrote: »

lol lol. In the last public library I was in, both the "senior management" lol and the other librarians done the same work / stood around chatting behind the desk. Oh, maybe the job is highly stressful and complicated, with little job security and long hours.....I am sure the salaries are justified:rolleyes:

What in depth research you have conducted! The pay scales you were referring to are for UCD, not an average council local public library. UCD and especially Trinity operate enormous Library systems, there's simply no comparison. Whether or not the heads deserve these wages is another matter, but trying to compare them as like to like is ridiculous.

Edit - I've just had a quick peek at all the threads started by yourself, they're very revealing! What on earth can have happened to give you such a hate for the public sector? Bad service at the counter somewhere? Late return fees?

jimmmy

Tayto2000 wrote: »

What in depth research you have conducted! The pay scales you were referring to are for UCD, not an average council local public library. UCD and especially Trinity operate enormous Library systems, there's simply no comparison. Whether or not the heads deserve these wages is another matter

Its part of the matter we are discussing.
Never mind my opinion of public sector pay + pensions or why I am concerned at how the country is borrowing 20 billion a year....how do you think our economy could be healthy if everyone from Cowen and the head of the Irish Cemntral bank and everyone else who gets govt pay, pensions and handouts is paid more than any of their equivalents in the known world? Think of our children and grandchildren who will have to repay the money - plus interest - our govt is borrowing + spending on themselves now .

murphaph

Riskymove wrote: »

if there is anything to learn from this thread its the further indications of how crazy pay is in the education area, particularly third level, which is generally overlooked when everyone talks about education as being primary and secondary teachers alone

Health is the first area that needs tackling, starting with the HSE

followed by education, starting with third level


this is why I am so against a blanket across the board cut. a real, robust examination is required

I'd agree with that. However, it takes time and money (neither of which we have much of) to perform said in depth examination so I'd propse an across the board cut and then start to see exactly who is paid what for what.

I believe however that the sheer innefieciency of the PS as a whole is what's killing us. Things should be centralised-one HR dept for all public servants, one payrol dept, one IT dept. I know from talking to IT people in the HSE that there are many roles which are duplicated across the old health board regions and the jobs are not exactly 'demanding' and could easily be handled by one person. This is likely to be the case for payroll and HR as well. Cutting out the duplicated admin work has to be high on the agenda.

Cutting out quangos and returning functions to the core public service has to be another. What exactly do the staff in the Dept. of Health do, for example, when the HSE is solely responsible for healthcare in Ireland? Same is about to happen with the dept. of Transport as the new National Transport Authority is created....these quangos are all intended to allow politicians a degree of removal from the problems of course

The RPA was formed because the government hadn't got the bottle to tackle the unions in CIE and just reform that dinosaur. It's a litany of wasted money.

All these blasted quangos have a heap of staff as well and a heap of (often useless) management.

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Things should be centralised-one HR dept for all public servants, one payrol dept, one IT dept

And nurses should be cross-trained as power-station engineers?

Centralised management creates large inflexible monoliths.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

And nurses should be cross-trained as power-station engineers?

Where did you get that from my post? Please don't quote me and then make an irrelevant comment which seeks to infer that I said people should be crosstrained, when I said NO SUCH THING

(although crosstraining is used extensively in the private sector, I wouldn't for a moment suggest a nurse and electrical engineer share enough of the Venn Diagram to be worth cross training!)

I simply said that there are multiple IT departments (etc.) in the likes of the HSE doing THE SAME WORK and this can be streamlined by creating one national IT department. Ireland is a pretty small country in case you hadn't noticed, not much bigger in terms of population than the city I live in.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Centralised management creates large inflexible monoliths.

See above-Ireland is small enough to efficiently centralise an awful lot of functions across an awful lot of departments and save an awful lot of money in the process.

Centralising such things as IT/Payroll/HR does not equal centralised management by the way. These are just administrative departments in the main, and most have little/no contact with front line staff in fact.

Here's another good one: How many planning authorities do you think exist in Ireland?

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Where did you get that from my post? Please don't quote me and then make an irrelevant comment which seeks to infer that I said people should be crosstrained, when I said NO SUCH THING

So, the same HR department that would hire nurses would also hire power-station technicians?

murphaph wrote: »

THE SAME WORK and this can be streamlined by creating one national IT department.

If you knew anything about the diversity of IT in Irish government and the huge costs and high failure rate of similar consolidation projects abroad, you'd be more cautious in your opinion.

murphaph wrote: »

These are just administrative departments in the main, and most have little/no contact with front line staff

You're spectacularly mis-informed.