Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

gandalf

jim o doom wrote: »

I don't have any particularily good suggestions. However, what was annoying me is that the discussion here, much like what I am reading in the papers regularily at the moment is constant bashing of the civil service. I know a lot of what's done is pointless & waste, however when they introduce cuts, it will not be the rich bosses that suffer from it, but the considerably lower paid frontline staff & the public receiving their services from those staff that will suffer.

TBH an awful lot of us realise this, there are sections of the PS that have been decimated by freezing recruitment at lower levels by relying on temporary staff. The problem is there are too many middle managers who have gotten in their positions because of numbers of years served and not their ability to do the job.

Here's examples of this. I deal with an awful lot of Government departments in my job, the people work in IT. On two occasions recently I have had engineers onsite who are working with a PS who is supposed to be technical only to find out they have no idea about IT and have only been transferred into that position because they were next in line for that grade. This is absolute madness and has to be stamped out.

the reason? because those bosses with the money are the ones making decisions. i don't excuse the waste AT ALL, but so much time and energy, in both the papers & even here on boards has been spent recently, complaining about the state of the service, you would assume it had caused the downturn & that by fixing it, everything would be fine. That simply isn't the case & can you REALLY honestly see those fat cat ministers & high up bosses in the civil service doing anything to erode their comforatble financial situations, despite what they have been doing to basically rape the economy and reap the rewards themselves, for so so long? of course they won't, that is NOT in their best interests at all. And please, just because someone is doing something stupid, doesn't mean a critic needs a good alternative - if it's stupid, call it stupid.

the simple fact of the matter is that a lot of people are blaming the service (not entirely unfairly) for a lot more than it is due. The people to blame are the ministers of state. When cuts come in, these ministers will not be affected - despite being the culpable ones. So like I said in my earlier posts, this is just a big game of "shift the blame". The ministers get off scott free, the public feels like something has been done & the hapless low level civil servants get it in the rear. perfect (from the perspective of the government).

Yes the top levels need to be culled as well.

Years ago I also argued that we needed to cull our Dail representatives, to cull the number of Ministers and to claw back their remunerations to figures that were more in line with the real world. How can a country of our size justify a head of government who is paid more than the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the President of the United States of America.

The axe needs to be wielded everywhere and yes you are right the lower echelons of the CS cannot take the burden alone.

jim o doom

gandalf wrote: »

TBH an awful lot of us realise this, there are sections of the PS that have been decimated by freezing recruitment at lower levels by relying on temporary staff. The problem is there are too many middle managers who have gotten in their positions because of numbers of years served and not their ability to do the job.

Here's examples of this. I deal with an awful lot of Government departments in my job, the people work in IT. On two occasions recently I have had engineers onsite who are working with a PS who is supposed to be technical only to find out they have no idea about IT and have only been transferred into that position because they were next in line for that grade. This is absolute madness and has to be stamped out.



Yes the top levels need to be culled as well.

Years ago I also argued that we needed to cull our Dail representatives, to cull the number of Ministers and to claw back their remunerations to figures that were more in line with the real world. How can a country of our size justify a head of government who is paid more than the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the President of the United States of America.

The axe needs to be wielded everywhere and yes you are right the lower echelons of the CS cannot take the burden alone.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said there - especially about culling back the ministers & junior ministers. The problem as I see it, is that they; being government, will not cut themselves or their mates (the other ministers) out of this wonderful racket they have found themselves in. Being faced with the amount of public opposition that they currently are & having a significant scapegoat to hand (the civil service) means they will just do what they did to the teachers & to the old people to the frontline staff & because so many people are out for the blood of the civil service, they will go more or less unopposed (by the CS unions too, as they are just the lapdogs of the bosses from what I have seen). This means the erosion of the front line services to the public, the creation of massive backlogs of work & nobody happy (except the government who can say - "hell you told us to sort it out by firing people, don't complain when the services are not there!"). They are & will remain the decision makers & I can't seem them deciding anything against themselves, just to sort out the cournty. Selfless they are not.

RobBrn

jim o doom wrote: »

Being faced with the amount of public opposition that they currently are & having a significant scapegoat to hand (the civil service) means they will just do what they did to the teachers & to the old people to the frontline staff & because so many people are out for the blood of the civil service, they will go more or less unopposed

I have to disagree
the public sector will not be that greatly effected, except by some excessive increase, possibly another round of benchmarking, in time for the election. 370,000 votes are too important to the Government

jim o doom

RobBrn wrote: »

I have to disagree
the public sector will not be that greatly effected, except by some excessive increase, possibly another round of benchmarking, in time for the election. 370,000 votes are too important to the Government

What you are saying is entirely possible I suppose - one thing I noticed is that the supposed new "axe man" hired to sort out the civil services doesn't actually report on what should be happening for six months, which is plenty of time for the furore to have died down. However, it is already affecting us - people who quit currently, or leave or whatever are NOT being replaced, increasing the workload - and this is the fronline staff I was talking about - if a small office of 8 which has to deal with seasonal high workload, loses 2 or 3 people, that means MASSIVE backlogs when the those high workload times occur.

P. Breathnach

zootroid wrote: »

Jim o doom, and P breathnach - have you any suggestions to stop the deterioration of the state finances, or help the economy out of recession? It's easy to criticise without offering any suggestions. It seems to me that any criticism levelled against the public sector is taken personally. Why should they be immune from criticism?

Of course it is easy to criticise without offering suggestions, and it's a common failing in most Irish political discussion. But when a suggestion is bad, it should be examined and contested.

Yes, public expenditure needs to be reduced and managed. But I want it done in a strategic way, not a slash-and-burn manner. It might be better to reduce some things by 100% rather than everything by 10% (well, I think the initial target was more like 3%). And it seems to me more like spite or envy when people want to cut the pay of EOs in the civil service, or members of the Garda, or nurses, or teachers. So suggestion 1 is to conduct a strategic review of public expenditure with a view to eliminating non-essential programmes, and reducing other non-urgent programmes towards a minimum maintenance level.

You're not going to like my other main suggestion: that we pay more tax. Not stealth taxes, not particularly excise duties, not VAT. Tax on incomes and profits (including capital gains), especially at higher levels. I was outraged at the 1% income levy when it was first proposed because it applied to everybody at the same rate. If your income is €300 a week, an extra €3 tax can hurt a bit; if your income is €2000 a week, you'll hardly notice €20 going out. Let those who have been made rich by the Celtic Tiger contribute to the cost of a cure now that the tiger is unwell. Those who want better-paid public servants to lose 10% of their incomes might agree that better-paid people in all sectors should lose 10%.

[You wouldn't believe how difficult it is for me to stop myself from looking back over the past few years and refrain from saying what was done wrong. It has happened, and we are now in a bad situation.]

jim o doom

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You're not going to like my other main suggestion: that we pay more tax. Not stealth taxes, not particularly excise duties, not VAT. Tax on incomes and profits (including capital gains), especially at higher levels. I was outraged at the 1% income levy when it was first proposed because it applied to everybody at the same rate. If your income is €300 a week, an extra €3 tax can hurt a bit; if your income is €2000 a week, you'll hardly notice €20 going out. Let those who have been made rich by the Celtic Tiger contribute to the cost of a cure now that the tiger is unwell. Those who want better-paid public servants to lose 10% of their incomes might agree that better-paid people in all sectors should lose 10%

I agree with you completely - spending should be cut in plenty of places in the service, most notably in the highest echelons.. but I get paid just over 400 odd quid a week, and I would be happy to pay extra taxes - hell I don't LIKE the new income "levy" (especially because I can't see them removing it even when the economy DOES recover) - but I don't mind paying extra taxes - as long as we were living with decent services. The fact is though, that I trust not even one of our politicians & I honestly don't see those extra taxes being put to the correct uses. They had so much income for so long and look what they did with it.. what's to stop them doing the same again?

P. Breathnach

jim o doom wrote: »

The fact is though, that I trust not even one of our politicians & I honestly don't see those extra taxes being put to the correct uses. They had so much income for so long and look what they did with it.. what's to stop them doing the same again?

What a lack of trust you show! Don't you know that the good people on this forum will keep them honest?

We (collectively) vote in the politicians, so it's our doing. The people voted in the present lot effectively because of the property bubble, and have turned against them now that the bubble has burst. Where's the loyalty there?

jim o doom

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What a lack of trust you show! Don't you know that the good people on this forum will keep them honest?

We (collectively) vote in the politicians, so it's our doing. The people voted in the present lot effectively because of the property bubble, and have turned against them now that the bubble has burst. Where's the loyalty there?

are you suggesting that a single politician I voted for came to power? - I did not vote for a single member of the green or fianna fail parties. I have never trusted the PD's, Fianna Fail or the Nazi Green party. I had in the past voted for the greens as underdogs, but not recently. I have always made a point of voting against anything Fianna Fail want, or the now defunct PD's. The greens idea's about - banning light bulbs - instead of just increasing the tax on them infuriates me with it's stupidity. I ain't turning on anyone, I have LONG been against them.

P. Breathnach

jim o doom wrote: »

are you suggesting that a single politician I voted for came to power?

No. I said "we (collectively)...". Blame your neighbours. I blame mine.

markpb

jim o doom wrote: »

I agree with you completely - spending should be cut in plenty of places in the service, most notably in the highest echelons.. but I get paid just over 400 odd quid a week, and I would be happy to pay extra taxes - hell I don't LIKE the new income "levy" (especially because I can't see them removing it even when the economy DOES recover) - but I don't mind paying extra taxes - as long as we were living with decent services. The fact is though, that I trust not even one of our politicians & I honestly don't see those extra taxes being put to the correct uses. They had so much income for so long and look what they did with it.. what's to stop them doing the same again?

This would be my concern too. I don't blame any one minister, any one public body or any civil servant. I think there has been a general culture in the state of free money. If there's no sense that money is finite or that you have a personal responsibility for the money you're spending, you're not going to spend it wisely. You'll expand bodies that don't need to be expended, not realise when you're being ripped off and generally let money go to waste.

Just because things have changed doesn't mean that that way of thinking has left the government or the civil/public service. Paying extra taxes to a group who think it's acceptable to pay the leader of a tiny island more than the leader of America, that it's necessary to have a government jet and still book first class tickets or that verbal contracts worth 10k a day can be agreed with a company ten days old would be crazy. They might have one or two "tough" budgets were big items are pulled off the list but all the "small" items quickly add up and won't be noticed.

P. Breathnach

markpb wrote: »

This would be my concern too. I don't blame any one minister, any one public body or any civil servant. I think there has been a general culture in the state of free money. If there's no sense that money is finite or that you have a personal responsibility for the money you're spending, you're not going to spend it wisely. You'll expand bodies that don't need to be expended, not realise when you're being ripped off and generally let money go to waste.

Just because things have changed doesn't mean that that way of thinking has left the government or the civil/public service. Paying extra taxes to a group who think it's acceptable to pay the leader of a tiny island more than the leader of America, that it's necessary to have a government jet and still book first class tickets or that verbal contracts worth 10k a day can be agreed with a company ten days old would be crazy. They might have one or two "tough" budgets were big items are pulled off the list but all the "small" items quickly add up and won't be noticed.

Let's get things in proportion. If we pinned TDs' pay to the average wage, and paid expenses on busfare and B&B rates, we wouldn't save much in relation to the scale of the projected budget deficit. Possibly about 5 million where the problem is in thousands of millions.

I don't mean that we should not tighten up greatly; I think we should. It would set a tone. But it would achieve little more than that.

Have you noticed how whenever somebody suggests a way that the exchequer can find a few million in revenue or savings, there are people lining up to suggest how it can be spent?

jim o doom

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No. I said "we (collectively)...". Blame your neighbours. I blame mine.

haha fair enough, can't argue with that I love how amazingly cynical people on boards tend to be! Yeah, I can't remember the say(er?) but I can remember the saying about "people generally get the government they deserve" ouch

zootroid

Public finances are slipping further:

The public finances are in the red by €7.9bn so far this year, according to the latest Exchequer figures, which were released this afternoon.

Today’s figure compares to a surplus of €1.5bn this time last year.

Tax revenue is €7.4bn behind target for the year up to the end of November. VAT was €2.1bn behind target, with Capital Gains Tax €1.7bn less than expected. Corporation Tax was €1.5bn below target, with Stamp Duty figures also €1bn less than projected.

Speaking to the Dáil as the Department of Finance launched the latest Exchequer returns, Taoiseach Brian Cowen said November was another bad month for tax returns.

During Leaders' Questions, the opposition again criticised the Government for the state of the economy and called for a reduction in the rate of VAT.

The Taoiseach meanwhile warned of further bad times ahead.

“There will be a deterioration on the 5.5% projected deficit for this year,” Mr Cowen told the Dáil.

“It’s because of the slowdown in the economy and the fact that the reduction in taxation is not just in relation to property-related taxes but also other taxes that have performed disappointingly.”

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhididididid/

So we're having to borrow around 700 million a month just to run the country on a day to day basis?

The sooner this government goes the better.

P. Breathnach

zootroid wrote: »

The sooner this government goes the better.

Maybe. Depends on what we get to replace it.

zootroid

Do you think it could get much worse?

Voting fianna fail again would be akin to rewarding incompetence. I for one have no confidence in them.

And, just to point out, I have no affiliation to any particular party. I voted fianna fail in 2002, and fine gael, labour, green in 2007.

schween

I handed in medical certs to Social Welfare 2 months ago because I was out sick. I was only out for 2 weeks but I fell behind on rent. I went in this week to see what the story was (for the 3rd time) only to be told they lost my certs and I'd have to get new ones and wait again. What sort of service is this? Will anybody see a pay cut or be told off? Not a hope! The public service is bad value for money.

P. Breathnach

zootroid wrote: »

Do you think it could get much worse?

Voting fianna fail again would be akin to rewarding incompetence. I for one have no confidence in them.

And, just to point out, I have no affiliation to any particular party. I voted fianna fail in 2002, and fine gael, labour, green in 2007.

I have no party affiliation, either.

I am not enormously inspired by the performance of the opposition parties at the moment. I am even less inspired by the government parties.

The situation is really serious, and many people seem not to understand that -- the numbers are just too big for them to relate to. The understandable reactions like "cut the number of TDs and reduce the pay of the rest" are just not in the ballpark. Even firing some public servants won't achieve nearly enough.

P. Breathnach

schween wrote: »

I handed in medical certs to Social Welfare 2 months ago because I was out sick. I was only out for 2 weeks but I fell behind on rent. I went in this week to see what the story was (for the 3rd time) only to be told they lost my certs and I'd have to get new ones and wait again. What sort of service is this? Will anybody see a pay cut or be told off? Not a hope! The public service is bad value for money.

Have you lodged a complaint? If somebody messed up, he or she is unlikely to make a complaint on your behalf.

jim o doom

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Maybe. Depends on what we get to replace it.

heh - I am of the opinion that we would be probably better off if we replaced the current government with one of those "dipping head" birds like homer used to hit the "return" key in the obesity working at home episode

gandalf

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The understandable reactions like "cut the number of TDs and reduce the pay of the rest" are just not in the ballpark. Even firing some public servants won't achieve nearly enough.

Well I think and have though for a long time that we have too many TD's and we need to make the Dail leaner.

I see FF and their spin doctors bandy around the word patriotism an awful lot over the last few weeks, if they did trim the fat with the dail, reduce down the number of junior ministers then they will show the public service unions that no one is safe and thereby justify the difficult task that must be undertaken.

Front line staff in the PS are not the problem with the exception of accountability for those who are just making up numbers. The issue is the surplus of middle managers and over paid higher officers.

The real patriotism that a politician can now show their country is to sacrifice their political career to sort out the mess that the PS has become. Make the hard and unpopular decisions. That's real patriotism not telling people to pay over inflated prices because of their mismanagement especially when the people are following the advice from a few years ago of one of their Ministerial colleagues (when it was pointed out that a rip-off culture existed).

RiverWilde

gandalf wrote: »

if they did trim the fat with the dail, reduce down the number of junior ministers then they will show the public service unions that no one is safe and thereby justify the difficult task that must be undertaken.

If they did get it into their heads to actually do anything about monies being spent on frivolities they'd have to set up a committee or quango to examine the issues involved and see if cuts in these areas could be made.

I imagine there would be alot of political fallout if certain TD's suddenly lost their junior ministry in the dept. of biscuits!

Riv

P. Breathnach

RiverWilde wrote: »

I imagine there would be alot of political fallout if certain TD's suddenly lost their junior ministry in the dept. of biscuits!

The sad thing is that their constituents would be up in arms on their behalf.

irish_bob

gandalf wrote: »

Well I think and have though for a long time that we have too many TD's and we need to make the Dail leaner.

I see FF and their spin doctors bandy around the word patriotism an awful lot over the last few weeks, if they did trim the fat with the dail, reduce down the number of junior ministers then they will show the public service unions that no one is safe and thereby justify the difficult task that must be undertaken.

Front line staff in the PS are not the problem with the exception of accountability for those who are just making up numbers. The issue is the surplus of middle managers and over paid higher officers.

The real patriotism that a politician can now show their country is to sacrifice their political career to sort out the mess that the PS has become. Make the hard and unpopular decisions. That's real patriotism not telling people to pay over inflated prices because of their mismanagement especially when the people are following the advice from a few years ago of one of their Ministerial colleagues (when it was pointed out that a rip-off culture existed).

fine gael put the country 1st via the tallagh strategy and never got any reward for it electorally , as for fianna fail looking to the national interest , that would go against thier core nature of never looking past the next election

gandalf

irish_bob wrote: »

fine gael put the country 1st via the tallagh strategy and never got any reward for it electorally , as for fianna fail looking to the national interest , that would go against thier core nature of never looking past the next election

You see thats the problem, to solve the long term issues of the country our politicians will have to become something they are not at the moment, Leaders.

They are followers, following every little whim of every poll, pandering to developers/unions/add whatever major group influences them.

nice_guy80

get rid of half the TDs - less representation per head of pop

less staff needed to support all these people

whittle down the Seanad

amalgamate a load of the quangos in the likes of education (where there are so many little organisations), health, environment, justice, employment,

there's a start

there is a big difference between people in the public service who actually provide 'services' - nurses, teachers, gardai etc than those who merely exist to administer the state's departments.

P. Breathnach

nice_guy80 wrote: »

get rid of half the TDs - less representation per head of pop

less staff needed to support all these people

whittle down the Seanad

amalgamate a load of the quangos in the likes of education (where there are so many little organisations), health, environment, justice, employment...

How much of the thousands of millions we need might that save? Fifty million? A Hundred million?

Where will we get the rest?

irish_bob

nice_guy80 wrote: »

get rid of half the TDs - less representation per head of pop

less staff needed to support all these people

whittle down the Seanad

amalgamate a load of the quangos in the likes of education (where there are so many little organisations), health, environment, justice, employment,

there's a start

there is a big difference between people in the public service who actually provide 'services' - nurses, teachers, gardai etc than those who merely exist to administer the state's departments.

the redicolous number of td,s in this country is a symptom of our parochial nature , not only do we like having a politician in every parish almost , its the same with everything else , we want hospitals in every town ffs

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

the redicolous number of td,s in this country is a symptom of our parochial nature , not only do we like having a politician in every parish almost , its the same with everything else , we want hospitals in every town ffs

So the problem is "us" and our parochial nature and our selfish demands? I think you have got it about right.

On a lot of things (not all) the wasteful ways in our public spending are the result of politicians trying to deliver what their voters want. On some other things, it's the politicians trying to deliver what their supporters/friends want.

I am pie

Let's sack loads of Public Sector workers...that'll keep them off the live register, boost the rapidly declining retail sector and stimulate regional economies where these people live.

Err..what, no...hmm...hang on. I think i've got a tad confused here. :cool:

juuge

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The sad thing is that their constituents would be up in arms on their behalf.

That's exactly right! Our TD's first allegiance is to their constituents and not for the good of the country. Just take Jackie Healy Rae for example, he works wholeheartedly for the people of Kerry yet when he appears on Sky news he is seen all over the world and portrays Ireland as a land of 'gombeens'. That can hardly be for the 'good of the country'.