Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

P. Breathnach

juuge wrote: »

Just take Jackie Healy Rae for example...

The UK has the Monster Raving Loony Party. One of their rules is that if you get elected you are obliged to resign from the party.

zootroid

Another thing that caught my eye about the public sector:

ALMOST all major public sector employers have higher absenteeism rates than the private sector, an Irish Independent investigation has found.

Of 60 public sector bodies surveyed -- including ministerial departments, county and city councils, the HSE, Fas and RTE -- 47 have higher absenteeism rates than the national average for the private sector.

The average private sector firm loses 3.5pc of its working year to certified and uncertified sick leave.

The absenteeism rate refers to the proportion of days lost as a percentage of the total number of days available to work in a year.

The rate in the Department of Social and Family Affairs -- the department responsible for getting people back to work -- is more than double the average in the private sector and is among the worst in the major sectors of the public service.

Apart from the Irish Prison Service, support staff within the HSE are the worst offenders among State employees.

The porters, carers, cleaners and caterers within the health service lost 8pc of their working year to sick leave.

Variations

But there were significant variations within the health service, with medical and dental staff recording an absenteeism rate of 0.93pc, nursing staff recording 5.69pc and "other patient and client care" recording a rate of 7pc.

Earlier this month, the HSE's human resources director Sean McGrath warned that there was no alternative but to change work practices and reduce absenteeism, to help slash hundreds of millions in pay costs.

The Irish Independent investigation came in the wake of news that the Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) had launched an investigation into civil service absenteeism due to concerns that some civil servants are "swinging the lead" or "taking duvet days".

Of the 34 county and city councils across the country, 28 have absenteeism rates of more than 3.5pc.

A handful of public sector organisations -- including RTE and Failte Ireland -- have significantly lower rates than the private sector. Galway County Council, Clare County Council and Wicklow County Council also have lower absenteeism rates, as has the Courts Service of Ireland.

Cavan County Council, Meath County Council, Westmeath County Council and the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs were all on a par with the private sector average of 3.5pc.

The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources could not provide an annual absenteeism rate as it was only established following the formation of the current Government in June 2007.

Other public sector bodies surveyed, including gardai, teachers, FAS, the Revenue Commissioners and the Central Statistics Office (CSO) -- all had higher rates.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/workers-in-public-sector-take-more-sick-days-1587716.html

K-9

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It might be better to reduce some things by 100% rather than everything by 10% (well, I think the initial target was more like 3%). And it seems to me more like spite or envy when people want to cut the pay of EOs in the civil service, or members of the Garda, or nurses, or teachers. So suggestion 1 is to conduct a strategic review of public expenditure with a view to eliminating non-essential programmes, and reducing other non-urgent programmes towards a minimum maintenance level.

You're not going to like my other main suggestion: that we pay more tax. Not stealth taxes, not particularly excise duties, not VAT. Tax on incomes and profits (including capital gains), especially at higher levels. I was outraged at the 1% income levy when it was first proposed because it applied to everybody at the same rate. If your income is €300 a week, an extra €3 tax can hurt a bit; if your income is €2000 a week, you'll hardly notice €20 going out.

Agree with the Obama rather than McCain approach to spending. The Back to Education scheme should be increased, not decreased.

On the €300 a week, it would have been €3 a week, 1%. Just paying back a little of the deal the Govt. did deliver on, No tax on Minimum wage. The Unions failed to deliver on poorly paid Public Service workers, the distribution of the pay deals was poor.

On €2,000 a week you would be paying a 1% Levy, 41% tax, 2% Levy and a .5% Income levy. Just clearing that one up. It's 1 cent in the Euro against 44.5 cents in the Euro.

I am pie wrote: »

Let's sack loads of Public Sector workers...that'll keep them off the live register, boost the rapidly declining retail sector and stimulate regional economies where these people live.

Err..what, no...hmm...hang on. I think i've got a tad confused here. :cool:

Or you can give them pay increases while tax revenues are decreasing. Increase costs while Revenue is decreasing. Ah, the 80's! Low tax and high Revenues!

NewDubliner

zootroid wrote: »

Another thing that caught my eye about the public sector:

This caught my eye:

an Irish Independent investigation has found.

Accurate reporting is not not something they're good at.

"Independent Newspapers (Ireland) wishes to apologise to the family of the late Liam Lawlor for the manner of its coverage of the circumstances surrounding Mr Lawlor's death.

tallaght01

RobBrn wrote: »

Are we really being ripped of by the public sector.

I was working in the public sector in Ireland a while back. I moved to Oz as it was so crappy.

I'll try to address your points one at a time, in terms of my experiences.....

RobBrn wrote: »

never miss a pay increase.

Well, that's the point of public sector pay increases lol

RobBrn wrote: »

get "benchmarking" which is really just an electoral bribe.

I earned MUCH less in the private sector than in the private sector, where I'd work less hours. Benchmarking me gee :P

RobBrn wrote: »

get massive pensions.

My pension isn't bad. But I live a shorter life if I work in the public sector, on average.

RobBrn wrote: »

can't be sacked.

I can be sacked and publicly villified if I make a single mistake.

RobBrn wrote: »

decide how much we should pay to them so they can have wages far in excess of private workers.

If I had a say in how much I'm paid, I wouldn't be on my 3rd electricity dosconnection warning this year :P

RobBrn wrote: »

get huge mileage allowances

I got no mileage allowance.

RobBrn wrote: »

get huge over night allowances - un-vouched.

I got no overnight allowance. When I did security work as a student, I was getting paid more at night, than when I was a university graduate doing nights as a public sector worker in Ireland. Wasn't even entitled to a break.

RobBrn wrote: »

threaten strike at the drop of a hat.

Last time my professional group striked was about 20 years ago.

RobBrn wrote: »

are backed up by politicians , Regardless

I work in health. Harney has tried everything in her power to disempower my profession. We definitely don't have a good relationship with her.

Blue-sky

Teachers... Who needs them

What more can you say about our wonderful teachers. Where would Ireland be without these icons of humble modesty. Hmmmmm let me think. How about this..Teachers are the most under worked overpaid parasitic whingers in the Irish state. Yep that sounds about right. Consider the long long days these poor dears have to work, 9am to 3pm or even 4pm ( gasps of incredulity). How do they do it, how can they sustain such selfless commitment day in day out. But wait there's worse, teachers are actually expected to work almost 26 weeks a year. I kid you not, the inhumanity of it is mind boggling. If we were talking about animals there would no doubt be a national outcry. Joe Duffy would be inundated with calls from "very concerned citizens" about the plight of these poor creatures.

Is it not repugnant to hear these self regarding, pompous whingers crying about the poor children in relation to the latest round of education cut backs. But "The Children The Children, what about the poor children" is the hypocritical cry from teachers union reptiles. However try make one suggestion, however minor, that may improve the lot of children but crucially would involve these paragons of hypocrisy having to cede a single millimetre of their God given rights. Make that suggestion and remember to duck as the airwaves are engulfed with a tsunami of indignant bile from these wasters.

Pay them for the hours they work, not a cent more. Review their performance and crucially their pupils development. If its found wanting, retrain them, if performance continues to be sub par ( or as we say in the real world -they are incompetent ) then simply sack them.

Like all Public Servants in this Kip of a country, teachers have been riding 'real' nett tax payers for far too long. Its time to put these particular parasites back in their box.

K4t

Blue-sky wrote: »

Teachers... Who needs them

What more can you say about our wonderful teachers. Where would Ireland be without these icons of humble modesty. Hmmmmm let me think. How about this..Teachers are the most under worked overpaid parasitic whingers in the Irish state. Yep that sounds about right. Consider the long long days these poor dears have to work, 9am to 3pm or even 4pm ( gasps of incredulity). How do they do it, how can they sustain such selfless commitment day in day out. But wait there's worse, teachers are actually expected to work almost 26 weeks a year. I kid you not, the inhumanity of it is mind boggling. If we were talking about animals there would no doubt be a national outcry. Joe Duffy would be inundated with calls from "very concerned citizens" about the plight of these poor creatures. You do realise that teaching is one of the most stressful jobs a person can have?

Is it not repugnant to hear these self regarding, pompous whingers crying about the poor children in relation to the latest round of education cut backs. But "The Children The Children, what about the poor children" is the hypocritical cry from teachers union reptiles. However try make one suggestion, however minor, that may improve the lot of children but crucially would involve these paragons of hypocrisy having to cede a single millimetre of their God given rights. Make that suggestion and remember to duck as the airwaves are engulfed with a tsunami of indignant bile from these wasters. Let us hear some suggestions then and stop speaking in riddles?

Pay them for the hours they work, not a cent more. Review their performance and crucially their pupils development. If its found wanting, retrain them, if performance continues to be sub par ( or as we say in the real world -they are incompetent ) then simply sack them. How do you propose to do that?

Like all Public Servants in this Kip of a country, teachers have been riding 'real' nett tax payers for far too long. Its time to put these particular parasites back in their box.

So my father who could not afford to go to university and entered the public service in his 20's and managed to work his way up the ladder and is now earning a 40 something thousand a year salary, misses no more than a day a year on sick leave and helped build our small bungalow house in the countryside has been 'riding the taxpayers for too long'? Not the public or private sector worker who spent hundreds of thousands of the banks' money on a mansion and hired armies of labourers, plasterers etc. during the Celtic Tiger and is now finding out that maybe they 'lived beyond their means'?

Public sector wages will be cut but to cut them by 5% would be immoral and unjust in my humble opinion.

RiverWilde

K4t wrote: »

Not the public or private sector worker who spent hundreds of thousands of the banks' money on a mansion and hired armies of labourers, plasterers etc. during the Celtic Tiger and is now finding out that maybe they 'lived beyond their means'?

Public sector wages will be cut but to cut them by 5% would be immoral and unjust in my humble opinion.

You got it in one there, the workers who spent THE BANKS money. Often with little thought about repaying said cash. Rather than working their way up the property ladder they took a ride on a bubble. Now that the bubble has burst - the banks are out of pocket - their own fault for loaning the money in the first place. However, those daft enough to borrow way beyond their means now have to deal with negative equity and pay off the money. Greed has been their undoing.

Riv

Blue-sky

"You do realise that teaching is one of the most stressful jobs a person can have?"

Teaching is no more stressful than any other part time job.
No doubt there are worthy individuals within the teaching profession.I have no quarrel with individuals good bad or indifferent. My quarrel is with the consensus. the received wisdom that public Servants and in particular teachers are de facto untouchable and ‘Entitled‘.
Untouchable in every regard, be it salary, conditions, entitlements, performance, accountability, pensions, absence ad naseum. By every recognised performance metric these ‘groups’ live in a parallel world to the rest of us where normal laws of common sense and realistic dialogue do not exist. They do not create or generate wealth, they simply consume disproportionate quantity’s of resources. Realistic solutions are appropriate in realistic situations, unfortunately there is nothing realistic about the Irish Public Service, it is positively surreal in its excess. I have always suspected that it would take an implosion of the irish economy before any of our lickspittle politicians would dare to face down the Public Sector Unions. That day may at last be approaching.

ardmacha

Teaching is no more stressful than any other part time job.

This is simply not true.

If public sector jobs are so appealing why were people not queuing to get into them over the years?

an Irish Independent investigation has found.

What hours do journalists work? They write drivel in many cases, the type of uninformed sounding off that many of us here in boards do for recreation

Delphic

Think you'll find when you go to write that 300 word, 800 word, 1500 word feature of drivel, it'll be more difficult than you think.

Sounding off about journalists writing drivel is easy to say. Having to do the job yourself is quite a different story - no pun intended.

Teachers, like any other profession, has its good ones, and it has it's terrible ones. The best barometer for this - whether you're a teacher or not - is think back to your own schooldays. Which ones stick in your mind for various reasons. Some, because they were bullies, but made you work and you got the results. Others, because they were lazy as sin, stood up at the top of the class and read at you and made you write things down, forgetting to put the essential bit of understanding in between. occassionally you had those teachers who you remember for life because they knew how to teach. to make things interesting for curious minds, and even the incurious or indolent.

Those who taught by giving good, vivid examples; who made you think, and work it out for yourself. And when you walked out of their class, or their exam, you left it feeling good about yourself and the world.

They ain't the best paid profession in the world, but have some better working conditions. But if you consider the enormous task that they're being given - your future education - you'd think they should be one of the best paid in the country.

And alongside that, I'd put in an assessment system that comes from some of the best managed companies in the world with superb HR practicies. Those that encourage and foster innovation, creativity and performance. and that identify, rehabd, retrain, and if necessary, dispose of those who aren't suitable, instead of the craven system that hides the poor performers at the moment.

That would be public service as you'd like it.

ardmacha

Think you'll find when you go to write that 300 word, 800 word, 1500 word feature of drivel, it'll be more difficult than you think.

Sounding off about journalists writing drivel is easy to say. Having to do the job yourself is quite a different story - no pun intended.

I agree, but it is possible to simplistically characterise a journalist's job as easy. Some journalists are not slow to make similar simplistic characterisations of other people's work.

As for ridding the public service of slackers, those who are doing the work these people should be doing would thank you, but the level of management isn't capable of this.

K-9

ardmacha wrote: »

This is simply not true.

If public sector jobs are so appealing why were people not queuing to get into them over the years?

The increases in Public Sector jobs in the last 10 years would suggest that yes, people have been queuing to get into them.

thebman

Seanies32 wrote: »

The increases in Public Sector jobs in the last 10 years would suggest that yes, people have been queuing to get into them.

Especially teaching. Almost everyone I went to college with has become a teacher except people in IT and even then our lead developer last year left to go into teaching.

Cuchulain

Some of the generalisations being made here is a joke. Im a public servant and Im fuct off with all the negative criticism associated with civil servants.
"Pensions are huge".....what a crock. I pay over €60 a week to my compulsory pension......If I stay until retirement I wont get a state pension.....it absorbs itself into my pension.

Did many civil servants profit from the celtic tiger? Blocklayers, plasterers, every tom, dick and harry and his granny were being paid sinful amounts of money to do menial jobs. Instead of buying big jeeps and country mansions with your money in the "good times" maybe it should have put away into a pension scheme.

Public servants have a higher qualification rate than the private sector. There are endless other irrefutable points.

So dont blame the civil servants, it was the extraodinarily flippant use of money by the public over the past 10 years that has got this country in its current predicament.

partyguinness

I know up to 20 people (personally as some are my best friends) who work with a Planning Department (as Planners with BA and MA qualifications) in a LA. Even they say its a joke...they call it being "on the drip" as they are so vegetated.

On their special Fridays...they go for a long lunch from 1pm to 2.45pm and then leave at 4.30pm for the piss up (after spending a few hours sening each other crap on the internet)

They sound like school children back in school..and they all have nicknames and gossip and talk about who snogged who at the weekend...they freely admit to not even inspecting sites and make their decisions on a whim and when they are running out of time..they will "Request Further Information"...just to buy more time as they cldnt be bothered making an effort to get it done on time..and this costs the applicant more money for architect fees and all for

€55k a year,
expenses,
28 days holiday,
pension,
guaranteed job for life;
can take 5 years worth of career break,

Which we, the taxpayer, is paying for..

Not saying all public servants are like this but this is happening..and amazingly the Planning Department are one of the busiest so God only knows what the rest are like.

K-9

Cuchulain wrote: »

Some of the generalisations being made here is a joke. Im a public servant and Im fuct off with all the negative criticism associated with civil servants.
"Pensions are huge".....what a crock. I pay over €60 a week to my compulsory pension......If I stay until retirement I wont get a state pension.....it absorbs itself into my pension.

Your pension will be state guarenteed. With Private Sector workers the State Pension is also counted in calculations of Pension paid. Try pensionsboard.ie to to get an idea of how it's worked out.

Cuchulain wrote:

Did many civil servants profit from the celtic tiger?

Check out Benchmarking.

Cuchulain wrote:

Blocklayers, plasterers, every tom, dick and harry and his granny were being paid sinful amounts of money to do menial jobs. Instead of buying big jeeps and country mansions with your money in the "good times" maybe it should have put away into a pension scheme.

And your point is? Yep it should have been put away. A pension isn't much use when you are unemployed though.

Cuchulain wrote:

Public servants have a higher qualification rate than the private sector. There are endless other irrefutable points.

Great, do you have a link to this irrefutable point?

Cuchulain wrote:

So dont blame the civil servants, it was the extraodinarily flippant use of money by the public over the past 10 years that has got this country in its current predicament.

Indeed, the Public Sector which piggy backed on this flippant availability of money should now be cutback.

thebman

Why do public sector workers keep assuming they are just being targeted for the craic rather than because the country can't afford to pay all of them anymore?

It isn't a fooking witch hunt. Costs have to be cut because there is no money to pay for all the staff anymore.

Its certainly the impression I get from reading these posts on boards.

markpb

Cuchulain wrote: »

So dont blame the civil servants, it was the extraodinarily flippant use of money by the public over the past 10 years that has got this country in its current predicament.

No-body (sane) is blaming the civil servants. Over the last decade, everyone's wages rose and overall employment rose. Now the economy is shrinking so we can expect lower wages and lower employment for everyone. In a private company this will happen automatically when costs exceed income but in the public sector, the government will be less likely to do the same because it's not in their interest (their employees are also their shareholders, if you like). There needs to be pressure from outside groups to make sure they fulfil their responsibilities.

This isn't picking on civil servants - it's just not realistic to assume the same level of wages and employment can exist in the civil & public service now that the economic situation has changed. Would you expect a private company to remain unchanged if they weren't making a profit anymore?

K-9

brim4brim wrote: »

Why do public sector workers keep assuming they are just being targeted for the craic rather than because the country can't afford to pay all of them anymore?

It isn't a fooking witch hunt. Costs have to be cut because there is no money to pay for all the staff anymore.

Its certainly the impression I get from reading these posts on boards.

Because they have a self interest in the topic.

You'll often find the same Public Sector workers will be moaning about inefficiencies in other areas of Government!

Cuchulain

Seanies32 wrote:

Your pension will be state guarenteed. With Private Sector workers the State Pension is also counted in calculations of Pension paid. Try pensionsboard.ie to to get an idea of how it's worked out.

The point Im making is that many civil servants pay large sums of money into their pension. More than the average Joe Soap. I dont see how did is deemed as an issue anyway, sure private sector workers have the ability to shop around for the best deal. At least you have the choice.

Seanies32 wrote:

Check out Benchmarking.

Benchmarking!!. Not everybody did well from benchmarking. In fact numerous groups got a big fat 0%. Myself I got a whooping 2.X%.......how does that fair against private sector workers during the last 10 years?

Seanies32 wrote:

And your point is? Yep it should have been put away. A pension isn't much use when you are unemployed though.

You just said it. It should have been put away, some in pension schemes and some for a rainy day. People didnt think that good days would last forever? One of my friends owns a 08 car and has just been make redundant, yet never invested any house or saved any money in the past 10 years. A typical example of how wasteful the public is.

Seanies32 wrote:

Great, do you have a link to this irrefutable point?

Ask and you shall recieve

Just over 69% of all public sector workers (excluding those in semi-state companies) have a third level qualification, relative to the private sector where only 28% of workers have a post secondary education (Source: Census, 2006).

Seanies32 wrote:

Indeed, the Public Sector which piggy backed on this flippant availability of money should now be cutback.

I agree there are many aspects of the public sector that are inefficient. Numerous cutbacks need to be made, however its the normal middle level workers that are being crucified by this public witchhunt.

Even if all public servants get 10% taken off their wages, it will only save the economy 2 billion a year. Nowhere near making any significant impact.

Other than the all the redundancies, I see the recession as a good thing. It will pull the public into line as we had lost the run of ourselves. Exhorborant spending and borrowing meant living lives beyond our means. Tradesmen, retail, developers etc etc fuelled this greed and thats what created this mess.

K-9

Cuchulain wrote: »

The point Im making is that many civil servants pay large sums of money into their pension. More than the average Joe Soap.

I wouldn't agree with that. Try http://www.pensionsboard.ie/index.asp?locID=458&docID=500 and do some calculations yourself. A large section of the Private Sector are on minimum wage, roughly 25% of the workforce and they just can't afford one. It's unrealistic to expect that they can afford €60 a week or indeed more, which is needed.

Cuchulain wrote:

I dont see how did is deemed as an issue anyway, sure private sector workers have the ability to shop around for the best deal. At least you have the choice.

It's an issue because Public Sector pensions are more valuable. They are Govt. guarenteed, unlike eg. Waterford Crystal. It's a far more valuable scheme, hence why it was counted in Benchmarking.

Cuchulain wrote:

Benchmarking!!. Not everybody did well from benchmarking. In fact numerous groups got a big fat 0%. Myself I got a whooping 2.X%.......how does that fair against private sector workers during the last 10 years?

I'll get you a report from the ESRI that I have bookmarked at home. It values Public Sector pay at about 15% higher, contrary to the popular myth. The problem is not so much Benchmarking, but the flawed belief that it was based on, i.e. Public Sector workers where paid less in 2001. The fact is they where not, but it was covered up to keep the Unions happy.

Very few got Zilch in the first round.

Cuchulain wrote:

You just said it. It should have been put away, some in pension schemes and some for a rainy day. People didnt think that good days would last forever? One of my friends owns a 08 car and has just been make redundant, yet never invested any house or saved any money in the past 10 years. A typical example of how wasteful the public is.

Completely agreed, I have the same beliefs. Neither do I want Public Sector Wages Benchmarked against the standard of owning 08 cars etc.

Cuchulain wrote:

Ask and you shall recieve

Just over 69% of all public sector workers (excluding those in semi-state companies) have a third level qualification, relative to the private sector where only 28% of workers have a post secondary education (Source: Census, 2006).

Surprised at that. Still goes to show you how attractive the Public Sector is and what great educational otions there is there.

Cuchulain wrote:

I agree there are many aspects of the public sector that are inefficient. Numerous cutbacks need to be made, however its the normal middle level workers that are being crucified by this public witchhunt.
Even if all public servants get 10% taken off their wages, it will only save the economy 2 billion a year. Nowhere near making any significant impact.

It's a massive saving when you consider what the cuts in the Budget saved. Plus that will be a year on year saving.

Cuchulain

Seanies32 wrote: »

Surprised at that. Still goes to show you how attractive the Public Sector is and what great educational otions there is there.

What? Are you saying that these qualifications were attained whilst actually working as public servant?

What this really does show is why public sector workers should be paid more than private sector workers. Higher qualification usually equates to higher wages.

As for the 10% cut. What about a family with two public servants? Double punishment. Its would never happen anyway, Id be the first on the picket line

Worth a read for the cynics and witchhunters : http://www.castlebar.ie/Business/Public_Service_is_Value_for_Money.shtml

partyguinness

I was talking to a friend of mine who works with a Local Authority last night...he said there is defo gathering momentum and they are bracing themselves for a pay cut..

Cuchulain

Dont count on it man. You think the unions will just stand idle and let it happen.
Power in numbers.

K-9

Cuchulain wrote: »

What? Are you saying that these qualifications were attained whilst actually working as public servant?

Nope, you are taking it out of context. Some would be, not all. Still, it does contradict the myth that the Public Sector isn't attractive.

Cuchulain wrote:

What this really does show is why public sector workers should be paid more than private sector workers. Higher qualification usually equates to higher wages.

You will not like this one, but I believe Public Servants should always be paid slightly less! So if they are being paid 15% extra as per the ESRI, then that is compensation. Though maybe some want more!

Cuchulain wrote:

As for the 10% cut. What about a family with two public servants? Double punishment. Its would never happen anyway, Id be the first on the picket line

Yep I'm sure you would!

Cuchulain wrote:

Worth a read for the cynics and witchhunters : http://www.castlebar.ie/Business/Public_Service_is_Value_for_Money.shtml

Lots wrong with that!

The fact the we don't spend highly on the Public Sector is grand and dandy, except cicumstances have changed. Economics doesn't really care about who spends what, where!

The reason spending on infrastructure was poor was because most of the money goes on Wages and extra numbers.

As regards Nurses etc. not being paid well, I'm amazed at how useless the Unions where in using Benchmarking and the pay awards to benefit the lower paid. Unfortunately the Unions failed in distributing the pay awards fairly.

jmayo

Cuchulain wrote: »

Some of the generalisations being made here is a joke. Im a public servant and Im fuct off with all the negative criticism associated with civil servants.
"Pensions are huge".....what a crock. I pay over €60 a week to my compulsory pension......If I stay until retirement I wont get a state pension.....it absorbs itself into my pension.

Did many civil servants profit from the celtic tiger? Blocklayers, plasterers, every tom, dick and harry and his granny were being paid sinful amounts of money to do menial jobs. Instead of buying big jeeps and country mansions with your money in the "good times" maybe it should have put away into a pension scheme.

Public servants have a higher qualification rate than the private sector. There are endless other irrefutable points.

So dont blame the civil servants, it was the extraodinarily flippant use of money by the public over the past 10 years that has got this country in its current predicament.

Ah you don't like the negative criticism, would you rather the dole line like for instance the workers in Dell :rolleyes:

Many civil servants/public servants did profit from the "celtic tiger" (the real one which started the ball rolling), some got salary increases supposedly because they helped create the celtic tiger.
But did any of the public servants lose their jobs when the ar** fell out of IT or telecomms back in 2001/2002 ?
Ehh that would be a NO.

They also got salary increases over last 5 years during the building bubble/boom (not the real celtic tiger since we created f*** all bar houses).

Added to that the numbers in public sector rose dramtically since 1997, that would be a benefits like having a job with guaranteed pension, shag all chance of redundancy, career breaks etc.

You say people should have put money in pensions, normally I would have agreed.
I work in IT, I have PRSA and a frozen pension from years ago.
I was providing for old age but guess what, one of my pension plans lost 24% upto July last, the other was down 30% and that was before the sh** really hit the fan over last months of 2008.

I do not have a guaranteed pension when I retire.
With the way things are going I will not have any at all and that goes for a lot of people in private sector. Check out what may happen retired workers from Waterford/Wedgewood.

Yeah public servants often have a higher qualification rate in some areas, partially I would say because they can both get the time and backup to complete courses and not becuase they are smarter or harder working.
PS I would like to know the qualification break downs.
BTW having a degree in public administration ain't much use in the real world.

Cuchulain wrote: »

...
Just over 69% of all public sector workers (excluding those in semi-state companies) have a third level qualification, relative to the private sector where only 28% of workers have a post secondary education (Source: Census, 2006).

I agree there are many aspects of the public sector that are inefficient. Numerous cutbacks need to be made, however its the normal middle level workers that are being crucified by this public witchhunt.

Even if all public servants get 10% taken off their wages, it will only save the economy 2 billion a year. Nowhere near making any significant impact.

Other than the all the redundancies, I see the recession as a good thing. It will pull the public into line as we had lost the run of ourselves. Exhorborant spending and borrowing meant living lives beyond our means. Tradesmen, retail, developers etc etc fuelled this greed and thats what created this mess.

Jeeze H C****, typical public sector and even government outlook. :mad:
Why bother saving 2 billion, sure it is only a drop in the ocean :rolleyes:
Sure what if we blow a few hundred million on cocked up projects, it is only small in the grand scheme of things.
Ehhh alll those amounts add up you know.
Who exactly is going to pay the taxes to keep the public sector wage bill going ?
The private sector is loosing jobs hand over fist, or don't you ever check out the nightly news.

Speaking of running away with themselves, where should we start ?
Fás employees blowing money left right and centre, IT projects running for years costing 100 million plus and no end in sight, HSE executives getting bonuses with no end user service improvements, civil service travel expense rates, train drivers paid wad of cash for any retraining, ESB engineers poaid to work in powerstatin no longer running.
Almost everyone gladly gourged themselves at the trough over the last 11 odd years and trying to blame the drastic increase in consumer spending on only those in private sector is disengeneous.

partyguinness

If you take teachers and the medical profession out the equation...how many public sector employees have third level qualifications?

Cuchulain

Seanies32 wrote: »

Nope, you are taking it out of context. Some would be, not all. Still, it does contradict the myth that the Public Sector isn't attractive.

Hardly 10% Id say. Really you should be looking at the fact that the public is being serviced by highly qualified professionals.

Seanies32 wrote:

You will not like this one, but I believe Public Servants should always be paid slightly less! So if they are being paid 15% extra as per the ESRI, then that is compensation. Though maybe some want more!

You may believe that but its hardly viable to pay highly paid professionals less than lesser qualified people.

Seanies32 wrote:

The reason spending on infrastructure was poor was because most of the money goes on Wages and extra numbers.

As regards Nurses etc. not being paid well, I'm amazed at how useless the Unions where in using Benchmarking and the pay awards to benefit the lower paid. Unfortunately the Unions failed in distributing the pay awards fairly.

Wages are always going to be the biggest outlay. Its the same for any government in Europe, Ireland isnt anything different.

K-9

Cuchulain wrote: »

Hardly 10% Id say. Really you should be looking at the fact that the public is being serviced by highly qualified professionals.

Indeed, yet these highly qualified professionals prefer the Public Service proportionately more than the Private Sector. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Really you should be wondering why if, as many say, the Public Sector has problems in recruiting, why do 68% have these qualifications? Why also has there been such an increase in numbers in the last 10 years if it is so poorly paid and isn't as attractive as the Private Sector?

Cuchulain wrote:

You may believe that but its hardly viable to pay highly paid professionals less than lesser qualified people.

Why concentrate on my beliefs and ignore the FACT that Public Sector Workers are on average paid 15% more. You seem to be saying it isn't viable to pay qualified professionals less than unqualified people. I don't know why you are making a point of this.

The reality is they are paid higher!

Cuchulain wrote:

Wages are always going to be the biggest outlay. Its the same for any government in Europe, Ireland isnt anything different.

Yep, exacberated by Benchmarking and pay deals.