Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

murphaph

K4t wrote: »

As already stated in this thread by another poster, public sector workers on average are more highly qualified than private sector workers.

Compare like for like. A clerical officer should receive x% less pay than the equivalent worker in the private sector. A city architect should receive x% less than an architect in private practice.

K4t wrote: »

Also private sector workers get bonuses. A small minority of Public sector workers get bonuses (doctors the most obvious) and I completely disagree with this. You are in the Public Service to do a job, provide a service for the country. There should be no bonuses.

I'm private sector and receive no bonus.

K4t wrote: »

In fairness, Public Sector workers 'pay' all their taxes and cannot evade them or declare only some of their earnings like so many do in the private sector. I think the security evens itself out.

Eh? The VAST majority of private sector workers are in the PAYE system like yourself. There's no escaping paying your dues in full.

You are talking about self employed people, which form a minority of private sector workers. Of course, these terrible tax-evading employers are the ones who actually generate the wealth. The public sector generates €0 in exports (ok, with the exceptions of the likes of the IDA and Failte Ireland etc. but you get the jist) while the private sector sends stuff out of Ireland and takes money in. This is where the weath comes from.

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

2) When a landlord makes a commercial property available for a long lease (over 10 years) the revenue believe that there is an intangible benefit received by the tenant due to the SECURITY of the long lease to the tenants' business. So revenue impose VAT on leases over 10 years.

Public sector workers have fantasticaly secure jobs and so should also pay a premium for them.

The security of the lease is legal obligation. Are you offering public sector workers a legally-enforceable guarantee of job security in return for a pay cut?

What will the immediate effect of the pay cuts be on the economy?

Thoie

Waaay back on page 1:

Nightwish wrote: »

I work for a public organisation where, when someone leaves the department, they are not replaced and their workload is absorbed by everyone else (in my section 3 people have left), leading to increased processing times for clients.

(My emphasis)

Right there is a huge difference between public and private. In the private sector that kind of thing happens too, but tough targets still have to be met, and increased processing time for clients wouldn't be acceptable - the people left behind would often be expected to work unpaid overtime to ensure it doesn't happen.

I'm not suggesting that's right either, but it does highlight an interesting difference between the two sectors.

NewDubliner

Thoie wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that's right either, but it does highlight an interesting difference between the two sectors.

Another difference would be that private sector only works for profit and to enrich the shareholders.

We have a vicious circle. Private sector increased prices for goods and services, public sector looked for more pay to buy those goods and services.

eigrod

NewDubliner wrote: »

We have a vicious circle. Private sector increased prices for goods and services, public sector looked for more pay to buy those goods and services.

add to that that the private sector for 6 or 7 years offered graduates and talented serving public servants (particularly in the IT sphere) vast amounts of money to work in the private sector....the public sector had to increase wages to be any way competitive. The weakness in the system was that the increses applied to all in the public sector and not just the talented, but the person that has the solution to that particular problem has yet to be born i.m.o.

CDfm

DenMan wrote: »

Please beg my question Nightwish but if people lose their jobs in a public department why are they not replaced? It seems a lot to take on for the existing staff to not only continue with their own work but to inherit a further workload. I read Mary Harney's report from the Irish Times back in July about the restructuring of the HSE as an example. It seems inconceivable that the positions would not be replaced. Sorry to hear about that. When I lived in Malta any public sector jobs lost in the Government of Health Services were replaced so as that staff would not inherit their workload and operate efficiently (system taken from neighbours Italy). It definitely needs to be looked at over here. It's too easy to condemn the people who work in the public sector when it is the top levels who are skimming the cream and those further down have to pick up the pieces.

Most companies when merged get economies of scale -cept the HSE and public service who continue to get to do things like they did when we got home rule.

Ive had a novel idea -the government should refuse to pay an more overtime or expenses to civil services until the person or persons responsible for leaks from the tribunals or other government department fesses up.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

The security of the lease is legal obligation. Are you offering public sector workers a legally-enforceable guarantee of job security in return for a pay cut?

Why not, they effectively have that guarantee anyway. When was the last compulsory redundancy in the public sector?

NewDubliner wrote: »

What will the immediate effect of the pay cuts be on the economy?

You want me to say "public sector workers will have less disposable income...." but I'd say instead that government can then reduce the cost of doing business here (thus improving our competitiveness) by reducing the tax burden on business and reducing the ancillary costs such as energy. Remember, always remember, the public sector generates €0 in wealth for Ireland Inc. ONLY the private sector exports goods and services beyond our shores and without exports out, no money comes in. Our nation must export something the rest of the world wants.

DenMan

CDfm wrote: »

Most companies when merged get economies of scale -cept the HSE and public service who continue to get to do things like they did when we got home rule.

Ive had a novel idea -the government should refuse to pay an more overtime or expenses to civil services until the person or persons responsible for leaks from the tribunals or other government department fesses up.

Thanks CDfm.

I asked her about it. It's not fair to have to stay back an extra hour and not be paid. Somebody else has to fix somebody else's mistake.

CDfm

E.T. wrote: »

Ever hear of sweeping generalisations? Who do you include in public service workers? Do you include the Gardai? Nurses? Teachers?

I agree they are meant to be role models to us all made of sterner stuff - and they went on strike for more money even when benchmarked.

Can we benchmark them down now the good times aint so good?

Mr. Incognito

ts 1/80th of pay less twice rate of old age pension. As I said, many people who dont have the service have a private pension too. And I also said, since I'm going to be gone in the next year my pension is the least of my worries.

I believe that it's 1/80th per year of service, so 40 years service is half your annual salary when you retire. This is the new civil service pension. The terms of the pensions that used to be there were more generous and we're all stuck paying for these dinosaurs for the next 40 years. In addition these pensions are index linked, unlike the private sector pensions.


I KNOW for a fact an individual I lived with in their orientation for their public service job were told to take their sick days, make sure and take them. They have a system whereby one person calls in sick for a week and the others claim overtime and they rotate it. It's a joke.

I have nothing but respect for teachers, nurses and guards but there is a bloat in middle management in the HSE and countless other government departments.

Look at the new grading system ffs. EVERYONE, bar one person got a 4 or higher in the department of finance. I know of no-one in my professional firm that scored a 5.

Anyone defending the public sector is talking out their arse, We all know colleagues and family members who work in the public service and this country has been taken for a ride for the last ten years. The waste of public money has to stop and if those shower of FF wasters won't do it, I'll vote for someone who will.

CDfm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I believe that it's 1/80th per year of service, so 40 years service is half your annual salary when you retire. This is the new civil service pension. The terms of the pensions that used to be there were more generous and we're all stuck paying for these dinosaurs for the next 40 years. In addition these pensions are index linked, unlike the private sector pensions.


I KNOW for a fact an individual I lived with in their orientation for their public service job were told to take their sick days, make sure and take them. They have a system whereby one person calls in sick for a week and the others claim overtime and they rotate it. It's a joke.

I read somewhere that the lower civil service grades are on 130% of private sector salaries.

Add to that - defined benefit pensions and job security which must be worth another 70% and they are on 200% of private sector wages.

Am I ranting or is this an accurate appraisal?

Delphic

I hope you're ranting. otherwise I'm applying for a job in the morning.:D

K-9

NewDubliner wrote: »

The government is borrowing to bail out the banks over bad debts owed by builders and property speculators.

I think you'll find we had a deficit of €8 Billion before the Banks where bailed out.

ardmacha wrote: »

There is no evidence that people want, or have wanted desperately to work for the public sector.

Except the huge increase in numbers which I already pointed out and no massive resignations! I agree Nurses are poorly paid. In the each for themselves Benchmarking process they missed out, the Unions failed the lower paid.

K4t wrote: »

As already stated in this thread by another poster, public sector workers on average are more highly qualified than private sector workers.

Which if 68% is the correct figure, begs the question are they over valued and since they are now the norm, should no extra be paid for them?

K4t wrote:

Also some private sector workers get bonuses. A small minority of Public sector workers get bonuses (doctors the most obvious) and I completely disagree with this. You are in the Public Service to do a job, provide a service for the country. There should be no bonuses.

In fairness, Public Sector workers 'pay' all their taxes and cannot evade them or declare only some of their earnings like so many do in the private sector. I think the security evens itself out.

Fixed that for you. Seeing as you mentioned security, plenty of Guards do nixers as bouncers and get cash in hand.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Another difference would be that private sector only works for profit and to enrich the shareholders.

We have a vicious circle. Private sector increased prices for goods and services, public sector looked for more pay to buy those goods and services.

And the Public Sector was able to pay itself more from the taxes received. Now they aren't coming in, they don't want reductions to go with it.

CDfm wrote: »

I agree they are meant to be role models to us all made of sterner stuff - and they went on strike for more money even when benchmarked.

Can we benchmark them down now the good times aint so good?

Nope. The gravy train works only one way.

CDfm wrote: »

I read somewhere that the lower civil service grades are on 130% of private sector salaries.

Add to that - defined benefit pensions and job security which must be worth another 70% and they are on 200% of private sector wages.

Am I ranting or is this an accurate appraisal?

It could well be in the future.

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20081218113613/WP270.pdf

blast05

add to that that the private sector for 6 or 7 years offered graduates and talented serving public servants (particularly in the IT sphere) vast amounts of money to work in the private sector

It graduates in Ireland were offered vast amount of money ?!?!?!
What would your definition of vast amounts of money be ? I'm an IT project manager and 2 new grads have started working in my group in the last few months. They both started on less than 30K, and this is the highest it has ever been.

eigrod

blast05 wrote: »

It graduates in Ireland were offered vast amount of money ?!?!?!
What would your definition of vast amounts of money be ? I'm an IT project manager and 2 new grads have started working in my group in the last few months. They both started on less than 30K, and this is the highest it has ever been.

I was referring to the late 90's, early 00's, when what was being offered by some of the .com companies (pre bubble burst) was vastly greater than anything the Public Service offered as a starting salary.

The point I was making is that the starting pay in the Public Service went up (it had to in order to attract anybody with any sort of a decent education), meanwhile after the .com bubble burst, the pay rates there came down.

gollem_1975

eigrod wrote: »

I was referring to the late 90's, early 00's, when what was being offered by some of the .com companies (pre bubble burst) was vastly greater than anything the Public Service offered as a starting salary.

The point I was making is that the starting pay in the Public Service went up (it had to in order to attract anybody with any sort of a decent education), meanwhile after the .com bubble burst, the pay rates there came down.

this was an argument made ( by the public sector unions i suspect ) in favour of increasing public service wages in the late 90's/early 00's .

I have also heard this argument used in defence of increasing salaries for politicians.

Even back then I found it hard to accept that argument.

It could be argued that the country should have been actively encouraging its best educational talent into productive sectors such as IT rather than the public services.

doggone

The first test for the Irish Free State was the TB epidemics. They put a hospital in Arklow where no family would abandon their child or have the means to visit. Then we had the abuse of industrial schools and secret graveyards. After over half a century people were talking about it. Too late to talk now about corruption. We have had the theatre of dreams and tribunals. The door is slammed shut and future generations of those middle class professionals will never be forced part with the profits of the parents. Next time you pass a homeless kid wandering the streets try imagine the wealth, power and corruption that put him there and the generations of deceit. I had hoped with CAB that one day we would learn of corruption on the white collar levels "As" it is happening but that was another body brought under control. In 1978 a strange 3 level extension appeared out the rear of my rented flat. Even then there was talk of a FAS 'stroke'. Not bad going by all those honest caring professionals who swear oaths and promise so much. How many whistle blowers lost their pee? throughout our first century of Irish men and Irish women? blah blah blah. :eek:

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Remember, always remember, the public sector generates €0 in wealth for Ireland Inc. ONLY the private sector exports goods and services beyond our shores and without exports out, no money comes in. Our nation must export something the rest of the world wants.

€0? You're mistaken. The provision of transport, electricity, gas distribution, education, policing, roads, ports, water, electricity, health care and safe food are essential services that all contribute to creating an environment where workers and businesses can generate wealth.

And, what was been done with the money earned from exports? Instead of being re-invested in Irish industry, it's been spent on over-priced local houses, expensive foreign luxury goods and worthless properties in Spain and Eastern Europe.

If you want to save costs, tackle both public and private sector waste.

CDfm

Delphic wrote: »

I hope you're ranting. otherwise I'm applying for a job in the morning.:D

unfortunately - i think it true in the civil service

321654

I love the begrudgery that comes out when times get tuff. First there was the whole immigrants are taking our jobs thing.

Now its the public service.

Listen to yourselves.

Its so obvious most people here ont have a clue what they are talking about at all.

Go find out what exactly these people you hate so much actually do in their day to day work. Find out about the different jobs.

I read a post a while ago on askabouymoney.com where someone actually went out to inform themselves about teachers. Pity people woulndt do more of this before they rant. I'll see if i can find that post and link to it here.

Here it is.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=735576&postcount=151

Pity more people dont check before they judge.

fly_agaric

murphaph wrote: »

Remember, always remember, the public sector generates €0 in wealth for Ireland Inc.

So, is it worthless then?

murphaph wrote: »

but I'd say instead that government can then reduce the cost of doing business here (thus improving our competitiveness) by .... reducing the ancillary costs such as energy.

Leaving out those terrible taxes for a moment... it seems the nasty & evil public sector which has driven the country into the ground & destroyed the boom might have role to play in generating wealth for the country after all!

Looking to the productive private sector to solve our energy/communication woes seems to be a waste of time imo.

ixoy

321654 wrote: »

IIts so obvious most people here ont have a clue what they are talking about at all.

Go find out what exactly these people you hate so much actually do in their day to day work. Find out about the different jobs.

I know exactly what many of those sitting beside me every day do (or, more particularly, don't do). There is definite wastage there and definite room to cut people who do so remarkably little.

I'd also advocate a role that staff that are there can become more productive. Let's cut out the paid tea break that many enjoy at 11am that can last over 30 minutes for some. Have a full 35-hour working week for all. Have more visible and stringent targets. Have PMDS performance be measured against fellow people at the same level rather than some risible targets (meaning only .7% of people in certain sectors, for example, got "need to do better" and a disproportionate amount got above average ratings).

321654

ixoy wrote: »

I know exactly what many of those sitting beside me every day do (or, more particularly, don't do). There is definite wastage there and definite room to cut people who do so remarkably little.

I'd also advocate a role that staff that are there can become more productive. Let's cut out the paid tea break that many enjoy at 11am that can last over 30 minutes for some. Have a full 35-hour working week for all. Have more visible and stringent targets. Have PMDS performance be measured against fellow people at the same level rather than some risible targets (meaning only .7% of people in certain sectors, for example, got "need to do better" and a disproportionate amount got above average ratings).

I find when reviewing my staff that each one of them seems to have an overly positive view of their own worth when comparing their performances to their workmates.

Its just human nature to think you are better than the people you work with. Let your manager decide if you are better than them or not.

I agree with you on everything else though. But if i had my way in my company there would be clocking in and out for smoke breaks and tea breaks all the time - but i cant have everything

One of the staff came in to me to complain about girl taking 20 mins each for 2 coffee breaks before lunch and leaving them to do pick up their tickets. My office is beside where they take their smoke breaks and that day i saw the person drinking their coffee with the smokers (she doesnt smoke). The person who complained is a smoker and i had to laugh that they had a problem with people taking coffee breaks but none with smoke breaks, which seem to be much more frequent. Most people taking a coffee break take their coffee back to their desk and dont waste as much time as the smokers. But the smokers think it is their divine right to take smoke breaks about 10 times a day.

Its all about point of view isnt it.

321654

eigrod wrote: »

I was referring to the late 90's, early 00's, when what was being offered by some of the .com companies (pre bubble burst) was vastly greater than anything the Public Service offered as a starting salary.

The point I was making is that the starting pay in the Public Service went up (it had to in order to attract anybody with any sort of a decent education), meanwhile after the .com bubble burst, the pay rates there came down.

I think you're dead right. I witnessed this first hand.

jimmmy

RobBrn wrote: »

Are we really being ripped of by the public sector.

They never miss a pay increase.
They get "benchmarking" which is really just an electoral bribe.
They get massive pensions.
They can't be sacked.
They decide how much we should pay to them so they can have wages far in excess of private workers.
They get huge mileage allowances
They get huge over night allowances - un-vouched.
They threaten strike at the drop of a hat.
They are backed up by politicians , Regardless

The recent debacle with FAS is just an example. Probably just the exposure of the "Tip of the Iceberg"

Is it not time that we demanded an end to this in equality, only equaled in the former USSR

Yes, definitely yes. The country is going down the tubes fast because of the vastly overpaid and inefficient public sector.

321654

jimmmy wrote: »

Yes, definitely yes. The country is going down the tubes fast because of the vastly overpaid and inefficient public sector.

The country is going down the tubes because of a vastly overpaid and inefficient labour market. Both public and private. You cant single out public on this.

I propose a 15% paycut on everyone on over €100k and a 7.5% paycut on anyone over the average industrial wage and a 2.5% paycut on anyone below it - including social welfare and minimum wage. These cuts applied to both public and private workers.

As an incentive to take this deal. Remove enough tax credits from those who do not accept this deal to make it a disadvantage for them not to accept it. Then people will be looking to take it.

41% tax rate to 42%. 20% to 21%. And new 50% bracket for those on over €100K. Get rid of that stupid levy.

Corporation tax up 2 % for 2 years and then back to normal after that. No change for new entrants.

A corporation tax rebate of 2% per year on any company thats been here for 10 years.
eg a company has been here from 2008 - 2018, They were paying 12% per year. In 2018 they get back 2% of everything they paid over the 10 years (which has ben held by us earning interest for us). Company gets rewarded for staying. Company leaves after 8 years they know they are going to lose out on 8 years worth of rebate.

And our Vat rate goes to the same as the UKs rate - down 6.5% to 15%.

Govt to change key figures (which arent accurate but you get the idea) so it all adds up to Ireland being a more attractive place to invest long term.

This will bring the average industrial wage down too. Maybe we'll become competitive again. Too many people concerned with blaming others around here. We're all in it together. And a swift kick in the arse now is better than a slow death.

Fixing our mess involves pain to all of us and not looking for others to take the pain instead of us.

Do this across the board and then think about inefficiencies the public sector.

I also propose that elected representatives get paid based on a percentage of GDP (a bit of accountability where they will feel it), adjusted yearly and they get NO expenses.

richiek83

The woes i our economy cannot be blamed on the public sector alone. The recession that we find ourselves in is down to a number of factors. Lets look at the facts. The sharp deteroriation in the public finances has been caused by a number of things. Firstly the collapse of the housing market, this has had a profound effect on the economy as a whole. Stamp duty and employment is down drastically in this sector meaning the Government is taking in billions less in taxes and paying more on Social Welfare. The credit crunch has made a bad situation a whole lot worse. Businesses are laying off as credit is not available for short term funding needs. Almost the entire developed world is in recession or about to enter one. We are in the same situation as many other countries. As we are in the Eurozone, we have to abide by the stability and growth pact which means we have to get our deficit back to 3% within an agreed timeframe.

The Public Service employs approx 365,000 in Ireland out of a total of approx 2 million, this equates to roughly 17%. This is low by International standards (Germany 25%, UK 22%). The problem is the cost of the Public Sector. Any cut in the numbers employed would have a negative impact on service. However one area where cuts could possibly be made is administration in the HSE. Health boards were merged together in 2005 to the HSE with no redundancies, in fact numbers employed in administration in the HSE have probably gone up. This is one area where An Bord Snip Nua can trim numbers. I note from recent newspaper articles that the average wage in the Public Sector is approx €40,000. This is above the average industrial wage.

My ideas for tackling our finances are 1) Introduce pay cuts in the Publc Sector bringing the average wage down to average industrial levels(lower paid Public Servants should be exempt from cuts. 2) Introduce a 2% levy on any person earning over €60,000. 3% on people earning €80,000. 4% on €100,000 and 5% on €150,000. The levy brings in a lot more revenue than a standard tax rate increase. 3) Lower VAT rates to 19%. 4) Corporation tax to stay the same. 5) Redundancies in the HSE and voluntary redundancies in the wider Public Sector( there is less scope for reducing numbers in the Civil Service without severely affecting services),35,000 employed there) 6) Introduce strict controls on Social Welfare payments. People claiming should be genuinely seeking a job(I have friends that are claiming and not job seeking).

Capital expenditure should be maintained at approx 5% of GDP.

Finally advisors working in the Dept of Finance have been getting their figures wrong for years now. A complete shakeup of Senior management in this Department is essential.

CDfm

321654 wrote: »

I love the begrudgery that comes out when times get tuff. First there was the whole immigrants are taking our jobs thing.

Now its the public service.

Listen to yourselves.

Its so obvious most people here ont have a clue what they are talking about at all.

Go find out what exactly these people you hate so much actually do in their day to day work. Find out about the different jobs.

I read a post a while ago on askabouymoney.com where someone actually went out to inform themselves about teachers. Pity people woulndt do more of this before they rant. I'll see if i can find that post and link to it here.

Here it is.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=735576&postcount=151

Pity more people dont check before they judge.

Thats not fair as per your link - Teaching is not a thankless job and teachers are very well paid and they have excellent terms and conditions of employment.

Civil servants are on great money- its not linked to performance or productivity.

Times are tuff -they were benchmarked to the private sector so let their wages drop.

I know many will disagree but something like 25% of the population are functionally illiterate. AS per your example that is totally acceptable -is it?

murphaph

fly_agaric wrote: »

So, is it worthless then?

Of course the public sector is not worthless. We need public services. They do not get exported however and do not bring in any actual money to the country.

fly_agaric wrote: »

Leaving out those terrible taxes for a moment... it seems the nasty & evil public sector which has driven the country into the ground & destroyed the boom might have role to play in generating wealth for the country after all!

The public service didn't drive the country into the ground or destroy the boom. The government for the last decade however has pandered ridiculously to the 'social partners' which should have never been allowed to happen (along with a whole host of other things that shoudn't have been alowed to happen). The general public accepted this back then because there was lots of money slosshing about (apparently) but from now on, every penny will be questioned. The public sector workers simply have to realise that they will not be unaffected by this abysmal recession. They will face redundancy and pay cuts too. That appears increasingy likely. I just want them to accept this and be dignified like the Dell workers etc. and do not strike and withhold services to the rest of us in a vain attempt to stal the inevitable. These changes to our country are painful to us all but we must get back to competitiveness rapidly or it'll get much worse. We are all facing a lower standard of living.

fly_agaric wrote: »

Looking to the productive private sector to solve our energy/communication woes seems to be a waste of time imo.

The ESB is has an average salary of the order of 70k. It is quite frankly, ridiculous.

K-9

321654 wrote: »

The country is going down the tubes because of a vastly overpaid and inefficient labour market. Both public and private. You cant single out public on this.

Exactly, it's part of the reason Dell are leaving as well and why Ireland isn't as attractive as it once was for Multi Nationals.

321654 wrote:

Fixing our mess involves pain to all of us and not looking for others to take the pain instead of us.

Yep, I've taken a cut in hours and wages for the greater good of my employer. Basically, I value my job more than a workers rights agenda.

Unfortunately for various reasons, the fear of losing your job doesn't usually apply to the Public Sector.

richiek83 wrote: »

The Public Service employs approx 365,000 in Ireland out of a total of approx 2 million, this equates to roughly 17%. This is low by International standards (Germany 25%, UK 22%). The problem is the cost of the Public Sector. Any cut in the numbers employed would have a negative impact on service. However one area where cuts could possibly be made is administration in the HSE. Health boards were merged together in 2005 to the HSE with no redundancies, in fact numbers employed in administration in the HSE have probably gone up. This is one area where An Bord Snip Nua can trim numbers. I note from recent newspaper articles that the average wage in the Public Sector is approx €40,000. This is above the average industrial wage.

Indeed, thems the facts, can't be argued with. I think 5,000 redundancies in the HSE was part of the Budget. We need more. Good point about the numbers not necessarily being the problem, it's the waste of resources that is. Belgium has the same 17% figure.

richiek83 wrote:

My ideas for tackling our finances are 1) Introduce pay cuts in the Publc Sector bringing the average wage down to average industrial levels(lower paid Public Servants should be exempt from cuts. 2) Introduce a 2% levy on any person earning over €60,000. 3% on people earning €80,000. 4% on €100,000 and 5% on €150,000. The levy brings in a lot more revenue than a standard tax rate increase. 3) Lower VAT rates to 19%. 4) Corporation tax to stay the same. 5) Redundancies in the HSE and voluntary redundancies in the wider Public Sector( there is less scope for reducing numbers in the Civil Service without severely affecting services),35,000 employed there) 6) Introduce strict controls on Social Welfare payments. People claiming should be genuinely seeking a job(I have friends that are claiming and not job seeking).

Capital expenditure should be maintained at approx 5% of GDP.

Finally advisors working in the Dept of Finance have been getting their figures wrong for years now. A complete shakeup of Senior management in this Department is essential.

Good ideas there. Also proper performance appraisal schemes, especially teaching. We all know the crap teachers who never get removed.

murphaph wrote: »

Of course the public sector is not worthless. We need public services. They do not get exported however and do not bring in any actual money to the country.


The public service didn't drive the country into the ground or destroy the boom. The government for the last decade however has pandered ridiculously to the 'social partners' which should have never been allowed to happen (along with a whole host of other things that shoudn't have been alowed to happen). The general public accepted this back then because there was lots of money slosshing about (apparently) but from now on, every penny will be questioned. The public sector workers simply have to realise that they will not be unaffected by this abysmal recession. They will face redundancy and pay cuts too. That appears increasingy likely. I just want them to accept this and be dignified like the Dell workers etc. and do not strike and withhold services to the rest of us in a vain attempt to stal the inevitable. These changes to our country are painful to us all but we must get back to competitiveness rapidly or it'll get much worse. We are all facing a lower standard of living.


The ESB is has an average salary of the order of 70k. It is quite frankly, ridiculous.

Good post. The ESB is a prime example of overpaid Public Sector workers.