Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

WexfordMusings

I'm a Public Sector Worker and need to make a couple of points.

Leave my pension alone - its mine - its my money - i pay into the pension fund every week - it aint cheap - its mandatory and its mine - LEAVE IT ALONE.

That said. Yes. savings can be made, yes some peopole might get too many allowances - are ya listening Beverly Cooper Flynn. A huge percentage of Public Sector Employees are Clerical Offices who are on the bottom of the mat scale, startingout at about €23K per year - tell me what lifestlye you can have on that? What kind of mortgage can you afford on that? Give me a break.

And its the clerical officers who will get hit with all the crap. Staff leaving are not being replaced, people going on maternity/fraternity leave are not being replaced, long term sick leave are not being replaced and the work load is being shered out between the clerical officers.

Someone mentioned protesting and strikes - I work in Wexford County Council - when was the last strike we had - I cant remember one anyway!

Bottom line, when the bank takes your house and you are homeless where will you turn? To Beverly Cooper Flynn or your local County/City/Town/Borough Council...

K-9

WexfordMusings wrote: »

I'm a Public Sector Worker and need to make a couple of points.

Leave my pension alone - its mine - its my money - i pay into the pension fund every week - it aint cheap - its mandatory and its mine - LEAVE IT ALONE.

Completely agreed. I'll leave it to you to talk to the Waterford Crystal Workers.

321654

Seanies32 wrote: »

Yep, I've taken a cut in hours and wages for the greater good of my employer. Basically, I value my job more than a workers rights agenda.

Unfortunately for various reasons, the fear of losing your job doesn't usually apply to the Public Sector.

The "I've done my bit" attitude isnt going to do it at all. There needs to be an organised compulsory cut on EVERYONE.

RiverWilde

There is no point in people around the country taking a pay cut unless the cost of living comes down. That's akin to slitting your own throat.
It's very nice to be in the position to be able to take a cut. However, most people are not in that position.

Riv

genericgoon

321654 wrote: »

The "I've done my bit" attitude isnt going to do it at all. There needs to be an organised compulsory cut on EVERYONE.

The thing is that the Government is only in control of what the public sector does. Unless you're suggesting the Government starts actively telling privately owned companies to cut their wages or lay off staff? I'm sure that kind of overwhelming intervention will make Ireland seem like such a wonderful place to invest. :rolleyes:

The private sector and its employees will adjust by default because its goal is the continual creation of profits or at least continued viability and if this means wage cuts or redundancies then thats what will happen. This is already happening in case you haven't noticed.

Now the Government is faced with similar issues as its debts start to pile up and one of the areas it can make the necessary revenue is by making cutbacks in the public service where there has been an accumulation of excess workers. It is now time for the Government to target these inefficiencies and make the necessary targetted wage cuts and lay offs (rather than the easy way out of simply not replacing staff or voluntary redundancies). The Unions are stopping these cuts being made (and they will have to be made one way or the other, try to increase taxes or borrowing to solve the problem and you're just delaying the inevitable) and will instead ensure the cuts are made with the easier methods which are more damaging in the longterm as they fail to solve the underlying inefficiencies in a targetted manner, thus preventing real cuts in expenditure.

RiverWilde

Very funny, when was the last time an Irish govt. actually did the correct thing? There are so many cliques and vested interests within the public services that thus far the govt. seems incapable of making necessary reforms work. In the health services, frontline staff are being hammered whilst the beauracracy just keeps festering away like a cold sore.

Riv

gollem_1975

RiverWilde wrote: »

Very funny, when was the last time an Irish govt. actually did the correct thing?
Riv

i thought the smoking ban was a pretty good move.

as was the decision not to abolish stamp duty around the time of the last general election when a lot of the VI's , opposition parties were calling for it to be abolished.

maybe we could start another thread for this question ( I suspect it could be a short one though )

CDfm

WexfordMusings wrote: »

I'm a Public Sector Worker and need to make a couple of points.

Leave my pension alone - its mine - its my money - i pay into the pension fund every week - it aint cheap - its mandatory and its mine - LEAVE IT ALONE.

That said. Yes. savings can be made, yes some peopole might get too many allowances - are ya listening Beverly Cooper Flynn. A huge percentage of Public Sector Employees are Clerical Offices who are on the bottom of the mat scale, startingout at about €23K per year - tell me what lifestlye you can have on that? What kind of mortgage can you afford on that? Give me a break.

And its the clerical officers who will get hit with all the crap. Staff leaving are not being replaced, people going on maternity/fraternity leave are not being replaced, long term sick leave are not being replaced and the work load is being shered out between the clerical officers.

Someone mentioned protesting and strikes - I work in Wexford County Council - when was the last strike we had - I cant remember one anyway!

Bottom line, when the bank takes your house and you are homeless where will you turn? To Beverly Cooper Flynn or your local County/City/Town/Borough Council...

The reality is the terms and conditions of employment in the Civil Service are out of step with the private sector.

Defined benefit pensions are non-contributory.AFAIK.

If you are on a defined contribution scheme how much do you pay and how much does the government pay?

What are the benefits on retirement?So fess up what do you pay and what do the Government pay.

BTW County Council funding comes from Commercial Rates, Bin Charges/Landfill revenue,Car-Parks Housebuilding Capitation, Planning Charges, Car Tax and Central Government Subvention.

Thats a lot of money that the County Council doesnt magic up but get from taxes and stealth taxes and charges.

Please clarify the pension scheme because most private sector workers dont have pensions and this is a huge benefit.

murphaph

RiverWilde wrote: »

There is no point in people around the country taking a pay cut unless the cost of living comes down. That's akin to slitting your own throat. it's very nice to be in the position to be able to take a cut. However, most people are not in that position

You are saying that you expect no reduction in our overall standard of living but that is impossible now. We've essentially been living on borrowed money (and borrowed time) for many years now. Living standards must now fall to reflect the true reality of our financial position as a nation. We could not really afford many of the trinkets we've been buying ourselves but we bought them on credit. The whole state has been living on credit: you borrow a load of money to buy an overpriced house and the govt takes its 30% and the cycle goes on....until the banks stop lending. Sadly, this silly little country needed this lesson in reality.

CDfm

RiverWilde wrote: »

There is no point in people around the country taking a pay cut unless the cost of living comes down. That's akin to slitting your own throat.
It's very nice to be in the position to be able to take a cut. However, most people are not in that position.

Riv

But you see Civil Service workers are being paid out of our taxes.

Ireland Inc after a couple of profitable years is showing a loss.

Private sector and some public sector workers have to pay more for less service and have to take cuts in pay or profit share and all the rest. Pub takings are massively down and pubs have gone out of business, car sales are down and garages are out of business , manufacturing businesses are down and dole queues are rising.

Civil Servants should be benchmarked to this.

Civil Servants are the ones who presided over all this and advised the government on the policy options that got us into the current mess.Like any business and economy the pain should be shared by those more fortunate.

That Civil Servants can advise government ministers to tell people over 70 to hand back medical cards and yet are not give up anything themselves is sick. Sick really sick.

RiverWilde

Ah yes but what should happen and what will happen are two separate things. What should happen is that public servants of whatever stripe should take a massive pay cut, coupled with a loss of privileges. Those savings could then be put into essential services.

However, human nature being what it is, there won't be any voluntary throat cutting and I don't see this shower of eejits in cabinet having the bottle to wield any knives.

They will however, continue to cut services to those most vulnerable in society. Hospitals will be shut down and merged, medical cards ripped from the hands of those who need them, A&E patients left on trolleys to rot, access to education made even more difficult etc etc ad nauseum ...

If the establishment feel any pain due to this recession I'll collapse in shock. However, given the indignation a certain TD displayed when she had to hand over an allowance she shouldn't have kept on moral grounds at any rate, I'll not be holding my breath.

Riv

K-9

Double post.

K-9

321654 wrote: »

The "I've done my bit" attitude isnt going to do it at all. There needs to be an organised compulsory cut on EVERYONE.

Yep, agreed, I am taking my cut, Public Servants aren't. Personally, I 've no problem in Nurses, low paid CS not being cut, cut the 6/7 Health Board jobs that where never abolished when the HSE came into existence Why did that happen?

gollem_1975 wrote: »

i thought the smoking ban was a pretty good move.

as was the decision not to abolish stamp duty around the time of the last general election when a lot of the VI's , opposition parties were calling for it to be abolished.

maybe we could start another thread for this question ( I suspect it could be a short one though )

Stamp duty, Yep Cowen got it finally right, concentrated on mortgage interest relief instead. He was correct over McDowell, though belatedly!

murphaph wrote: »

You are saying that you expect no reduction in our overall standard of living but that is impossible now. We've essentially been living on borrowed money (and borrowed time) for many years now. Living standards must now fall to reflect the true reality of our financial position as a nation. We could not really afford many of the trinkets we've been buying ourselves but we bought them on credit. The whole state has been living on credit: you borrow a load of money to buy an overpriced house and the govt takes its 30% and the cycle goes on....until the banks stop lending. Sadly, this silly little country needed this lesson in reality.

Ah at last sense. The same borrowed money that we all lived on, Hands up!, is the same money Public Sector workers based benchmarking and pay deals on.

It's conveniently ignored now despite the Public Service moaning about the Property/Credit boom they benefitted from, same as everybody else!

RiverWilde wrote: »

Ah yes but what should happen and what will happen are two separate things. What should happen is that public servants of whatever stripe should take a massive pay cut, coupled with a loss of privileges. Those savings could then be put into essential services.

However, human nature being what it is, there won't be any voluntary throat cutting and I don't see this shower of eejits in cabinet having the bottle to wield any knives.

They will however, continue to cut services to those most vulnerable in society. Hospitals will be shut down and merged, medical cards ripped from the hands of those who need them, A&E patients left on trolleys to rot, access to education made even more difficult etc etc ad nauseum ...

If the establishment feel any pain due to this recession I'll collapse in shock. However, given the indignation a certain TD displayed when she had to hand over an allowance she shouldn't have kept on moral grounds at any rate, I'll not be holding my breath.

Riv

Indeed, Public Servanys should look at the HSE and the 6/7 Health Boards with no job losses. That is where the savings are to be made. Cut that waste and we can afford to not cut front line services.

Public Service waste affects Public Sector workers far more than it does Private sector waste!

grahamo

Some seriously misinformed people on here.
I'm a public servant, I pay 5% of salary into a pension. after 40 years you should get 50% of salary minus the rate of the state pension paid for by my PRSI contributions.
People taken on after 1995 pay PRSI at class A1. Exactly the same as the private sector.
I work for a state lab that provides commercial services. Therefore we generate enough revenue to cover our own costs and salaries.
I cost the taxpayer zilch!
Science and engineering grades are not overpaid. I've earned more in the private sector.

BroomBurner

CDfm wrote: »

But you see Civil Service workers are being paid out of both private sector AND their own taxes.

CDfm wrote: »

Ireland Inc after a couple of profitable years is showing a loss.

Private sector and some public sector workers have to pay more for less service and have to take cuts in pay or profit share and all the rest. Pub takings are massively down and pubs have gone out of business, car sales are down and garages are out of business , manufacturing businesses are down and dole queues are rising.

Civil Servants should be benchmarked to this.

For a start, are you referring to Public Servants overall, or is your bitterness directed only at Civil Servants?

Secondly, benchmarking was done in line with living costs. They took a lot longer to come through however, owing to the general slowness in making anything happen in a large body (private or public).

CDfm wrote: »

Civil Servants are the ones who presided over all this and advised the government on the policy options that got us into the current mess.Like any business and economy the pain should be shared by those more fortunate.

Now that's just being naive to believe that the government aren't in the pockets of elements of the private sector. In fact, the private sector dictates a lot more of what policy goes on than average joe civil servants.

CDfm wrote: »

That Civil Servants can advise government ministers to tell people over 70 to hand back medical cards and yet are not give up anything themselves is sick. Sick really sick.

That was actually that Fitzpatrick guy (from Anglo Irish Bank, I think) that gave the government that advice. As far I know, he works in the private sector.

K-9

BroomBurner wrote: »

That was actually that Fitzpatrick guy (from Anglo Irish Bank, I think) that gave the government that advice. As far I know, he works in the private sector.

Actually he's unemployed now, though admittedly belatedly!

CDfm

BroomBurner wrote: »

Secondly, benchmarking was done in line with living costs. They took a lot longer to come through however, owing to the general slowness in making anything happen in a large body (private or public).



Now that's just being naive to believe that the government aren't in the pockets of elements of the private sector. In fact, the private sector dictates a lot more of what policy goes on than average joe civil servants.

Thats even worse because private sector workers got none of those increases so you are even more out of line then I thought.

IBEC dont dictate Civil Service pay rates. Maybe they should.

I am v v surprised that Civil Servants have no input to Government Policy - that leads me to conclude that all these policy makers should be made redundant or even fired for their inability to do the jobs they are paid to do.

cyclopath2001

CDfm wrote: »

I am v v surprised that Civil Servants have no input to Government Policy - that leads me to conclude that all these policy makers should be made redundant or even fired for their inability to do the jobs they are paid to do.

Civil Servants are not paid to make policy. That's the job of the politicians. The job of civil servants is to implement government policy, no matter how idiotic.

CDfm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Civil Servants are not paid to make policy. That's the job of the politicians. The job of civil servants is to implement government policy, no matter how idiotic.

If I am not mistaken they are technocrats that advise on options of implementing policies- pros and cons and alternatives

BroomBurner

CDfm wrote: »

If I am not mistaken they are technocrats that advise on options of implementing policies- pros and cons and alternatives

I think your main problem is that you confuse government with public sector workers.

321654

CDfm wrote: »

Thats even worse because private sector workers got none of those increases so you are even more out of line then I thought.

They do if they are any good at their jobs. And get bonuses too.

If you are not getting decent increases and bonuses yearly in the private sector your employer may be trying to tell you something.

Private sector salary increases in reviews can be and usually are a hell of a lot more than a public sector employees increases.

CDfm

321654 wrote: »

They do if they are any good at their jobs. And get bonuses too.

If you are not getting decent increases and bonuses yearly in the private sector your employer may be trying to tell you something.

Private sector salary increases in reviews can be and usually are a hell of a lot more than a public sector employees increases.

Back up your statement with evidence -we are talking about normal people doing normal jobs.

Where are the companies giving these large bonuses? Tell me and I can go to work for them.


You are not going to tell me that a clerical or administration worker in an insurance company or an accounts person in factory or a butcher in a supermarket or a secretary in a soicitors office all recieve discretionary bonuses.

CDfm

BroomBurner wrote: »

I think your main problem is that you confuse government with public sector workers.

explain to me then how policy is arrived at and the role of civil servants have in it.

do they ever suggest alternatives

BroomBurner

CDfm wrote: »

explain to me then how policy is arrived at and the role of civil servants have in it.

do they ever suggest alternatives

Try reading a book on where legislation comes from. Most of Ireland's legislation comes from the EU, not individual civil servants, off the top of their heads.

Nermal

grahamo wrote: »

Some seriously misinformed people on here.
I'm a public servant, I pay 5% of salary into a pension. after 40 years you should get 50% of salary minus the rate of the state pension paid for by my PRSI contributions. People taken on after 1995 pay PRSI at class A1. Exactly the same as the private sector.

Find an actuary, and ask him how much a defined benefit pension of 50% of salary minus the state pension (indexed to wage increases) and a lump sum of 50% of salary (you'll get this also) would cost you in the private sector.

It will be at minimum six times what you're paying at the moment. The private sector is picking up the tab for you.

CDfm

BroomBurner wrote: »

Try reading a book on where legislation comes from. Most of Ireland's legislation comes from the EU, not individual civil servants, off the top of their heads.

really - i thought the government departments implemented policy formed by government and now I find they implement EU directives and we dont need a government

cyclopath2001

CDfm wrote: »

explain to me then how policy is arrived at and the role of civil servants have in it.

Policy is published by the political parties and voted on by the members of the parties. Other than the most junior clerks, civil servants are not allowed to be members of political parties and therefore have no role in the formulation of their policies. This is necessary so that they can be objective in their work and in any advice they might give about how to execute the wishes of the government.

CDfm wrote: »

do they ever suggest alternatives

I don't know, do you?

A Dub in Glasgo

Anyone in a final salary pension scheme should thank their lucky stars. Anyone paying less than 10% into a final salary pension scheme should thank their lucky stars twice.

K-9

321654 wrote: »

They do if they are any good at their jobs. And get bonuses too.

If you are not getting decent increases and bonuses yearly in the private sector your employer may be trying to tell you something.

Private sector salary increases in reviews can be and usually are a hell of a lot more than a public sector employees increases.

Can we please stop quoting this lie. Jaysus Benchmarking addressed this stuff.

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20081218113613/WP270.pdf

Nermal wrote: »

Find an actuary, and ask him how much a defined benefit pension of 50% of salary minus the state pension (indexed to wage increases) and a lump sum of 50% of salary (you'll get this also) would cost you in the private sector.

It will be at minimum six times what you're paying at the moment. The private sector is picking up the tab for you.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Anyone in a final salary pension scheme should thank their lucky stars. Anyone paying less than 10% into a final salary pension scheme should thank their lucky stars twice.

Or even do a quick calculation on the pensions board site.

PS. The total pension they calculate also includes the State Pension.

CDfm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Policy is published by the political parties and voted on by the members of the parties. Other than the most junior clerks, civil servants are not allowed to be members of political parties and therefore have no role in the formulation of their policies. This is necessary so that they can be objective in their work and in any advice they might give about how to execute the wishes of the government.

I don't know, do you?

Come on - civil servants exercise a lot of executive power and have discretion over major policy areas.

For example -Civil Servants in D o H allocate 20,000,000 in funding to Womens Aid for male on female domestic violence and 50,000 to male groups for female on male domestic violence even though studies show that abuse is almost equal. A Civil Servant will be biased in their executive decisions and can be.

Also- ministers act on advice and reports from Civil servants oin alternatives so the Civil Service wield huge power and politicians rely on them.