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Is "Rip Off Ireland" really "Rip Off by the Public Sector"

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    #242
    grahamo
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭grahamo


    So industry pays for you and who exactly is industry ?
    Engineering, Science, Biomed industries (who don't seem to be suffering too much at the moment from the recession for some reason)

    Fair enough your organisation and your job provides a service to customers i.e. industry, but who is to say that your costs aren't very high since your salary base is very high ?

    I doubt costs of services are higher than private sector, we aim to cover running costs rather than make big profits. I don't think salary base is that high. I've earned more in the private sector. The main reason I moved to public sector was to get away from shift work.

    Can industry get a competing service from another organisation ?
    I'm sure they can but they certainly won't be cheaper.


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    #243
    BroomBurner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    brim4brim wrote: »

    There seems to be an impression from public sector people on here that the private sector is asking for them all to be axed. Not really, just the useless ones. If your not useless you have nothing to worry about.

    I actually think you'll find a lot of consensus here, between public and private sector workers. Those that work hard in the public sector equally hate seeing colleagues not pulling their weight, the same as private sector workers. I think public workers tend to be on the defensive to quickly though as you have others running their mouths off about things they don't understand, and tarring all with the one brush.

    People in the civil and public service are aware that changes need to happen, a lot of them are in fear for their jobs, houses, etc., exactly like private sector workers.


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    #244
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    I actually think you'll find a lot of consensus here, between public and private sector workers. Those that work hard in the public sector equally hate seeing colleagues not pulling their weight, the same as private sector workers. I think public workers tend to be on the defensive to quickly though as you have others running their mouths off about things they don't understand, and tarring all with the one brush.

    People in the civil and public service are aware that changes need to happen, a lot of them are in fear for their jobs, houses, etc., exactly like private sector workers.

    Yeah I think anyone that just assumes all public sector is waste is bonkers. Some people take pride in their job even if they feel they have a "job for life".

    I think the public sector is more likely to have wasteful people in it because unlike private companies, it doesn't cut out the waste as often. I'd say the middle management in some areas of the public sector probably has the most waste. Then you have some boards that seem to exist purely so nobody is accountable for decisions made. I think that kind of nonsense has to stop.

    Everyone has heard stories of managers in the public sector that don't manage anyone or anything and if there actually is anyone in that position, they should be the first to go.


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    #245
    mad m
    Registered Users Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭mad m


    Worked in private sector for over 10years before I went into public sector. When I first went into public sector before bench marking the wages were nearly half of what I was getting in the private sector. People thought I was mad going into public section.

    Since last year those very same people have tried and failed to get into the public sector. The reason they didn't go into it first was because they were obviously making a very good wage as I was. The reason for benchmarking was to bring the wage in line with rates in the private sector, it was never really on par ever, the private sector was always more no matter what rise I got.

    I worked hard on sites and I am still working hard. For people who think my job is 100% safe think again, I am on a contract like many others......We all see what is happening and worry just like everyone else...


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    #246
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    murphaph wrote: »
    Of course the public sector is not worthless. We need public services. They do not get exported however and do not bring in any actual money to the country.

    Not to labour the point but as others have said well run & efficient public services will assist us to bring said money into the country.

    Services which have been pared back to the bone by a headless-chicken government which institutes swinging cutbacks because "we" want a few heads on a pike will probably not be of much use.

    edit: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0113/breaking69.htm

    Actually, I take that back - the current govt are also sly dogs & will also use this "opportunity" to damage any bits of the public sector it really doesn't like (the various pesky equality bodies, and now db which has stood in the way of farming out bus routes which make money to private operators)
    murphaph wrote: »
    The government for the last decade however has pandered ridiculously to the 'social partners' which should have never been allowed to happen (along with a whole host of other things that shoudn't have been alowed to happen).

    I actually agree with you.
    murphaph wrote: »
    The public sector workers simply have to realise that they will not be unaffected by this abysmal recession. They will face redundancy and pay cuts too.

    Whatever about the pay issue, putting many more people on the scratcher right now is absolute madness. I hope at least some people can see that.
    murphaph wrote: »
    The ESB is has an average salary of the order of 70k. It is quite frankly, ridiculous.

    Well, at least they aren't blacking or browning out our power on purpose so they can game an "energy market" and make money.


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    #247
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    Not to labour the point but as others have said well run & efficient public services will assist us to bring said money into the country.

    Services which have been pared back to the bone by a headless-chicken government which institutes swinging cutbacks because "we" want a few heads on a pike will probably not be of much use.

    edit: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0113/breaking69.htm

    Actually, I take that back - the current govt are also sly dogs & will also use this "opportunity" to damage any bits of the public sector it really doesn't like (the various pesky equality bodies, and now db which has stood in the way of farming out bus routes which make money to private operators)

    That is a possibility. Anything they don't like will go or anyone pushing for reform will probably go and we'll just end up with the people that won't talk bad about the government sitting there doing nothing instead :rolleyes:

    It could happen, lets hope not but this government only cares about preserving itself (as I suppose almost all governments do).


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    #248
    DeirdreD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭DeirdreD


    Devious wrote: »
    Oh dear, looks like iv pi$$ed off another teacher :rolleyes:

    So my calling for reductions in both public sector numbers and wages is a "wild rant"? Are you seriously that deluded to believe that we can sustain a public sector of 370,000 odd in the current climate? Do you actually believe that schools losing "a teacher or two" is going to radically impact the educational development in a negative way? Come on man, its time to get realistic here.

    Teachers are now teaching a more diverse population than ever before e.g. children with significant special educational needs are now included in mainstream classes, social, emotional and behavioural problems have also been noted to be increasing amongst pupils - to name a few - so yes every pupil does matter and for education to be effective smaller teacher pupil numbers do make a difference if we are to allow adequate participation in the process (remember we have a new curriculum which advocates hands on learning, group learning etc etc all more easily achieved with smaller numbers)

    However to balance the argument there does seem to be a huge amount of quangos associated with teaching e.g. Second level support Service, Primary Professsional Development Service, School Development Planning etc etc Prehaps this is where one can look at making savings? Anyone other suggestions?:confused:


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    #249
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    mad m wrote: »

    Since last year those very same people have tried and failed to get into the public sector. The reason they didn't go into it first was because they were obviously making a very good wage as I was. The reason for benchmarking was to bring the wage in line with rates in the private sector, it was never really on par ever, the private sector was always more no matter what rise I got.

    I worked hard on sites and I am still working hard. For people who think my job is 100% safe think again, I am on a contract like many others......We all see what is happening and worry just like everyone else...

    Thats a bit of a generalisation. Your contract will complete and I would be interested in seeing how long your contract has to run.

    The public service is awash with local and individual pay agreements -but you also may have qualified for a generous pension etc.

    The likelyhood of you becoming unemployed or being made redundant is so small that its negligable.

    I will bet that there are plenty of building workers who would swap worries with you.


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    #250
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    DeirdreD wrote: »
    Teachers are now teaching a more diverse population than ever before e.g. children with significant special educational needs are now included in mainstream classes, social, emotional and behavioural problems have also been noted to be increasing amongst pupils - to name a few - so yes every pupil does matter and for education to be effective smaller teacher pupil numbers do make a difference if we are to allow adequate participation in the process (remember we have a new curriculum which advocates hands on learning, group learning etc etc all more easily achieved with smaller numbers)

    However to balance the argument there does seem to be a huge amount of quangos associated with teaching e.g. Second level support Service, Primary Professsional Development Service, School Development Planning etc etc Prehaps this is where one can look at making savings? Anyone other suggestions?:confused:

    Where is the evidence of all the increase in psycho and disturbed kids?I find it hard to believe that its any greater than in past generations. I went to school with deaf kids,dyslexics,epileptics, abused kids etc.

    Maybe teachers are not able to cope or have got used to having loads of specialists helping.

    I presume you are a teacher- as you are suggesting cuts in areas that dont affect you. The point is that cuts will affect everyone- and everyone in the public service has to realise it-including teachers.


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    #251
    Firetrap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭Firetrap


    brim4brim wrote: »
    There seems to be an impression from public sector people on here that the private sector is asking for them all to be axed. Not really, just the useless ones. If you're not useless you have nothing to worry about.

    The problem is that there's no system for weeding out the wasters. My guess is that if they cut jobs in the public service, anyone who's on a contract will be for the chop straight away regardless of how good they are. It's a nice cheap way to get rid of numbers - no redundancy required, just a P45.

    Has anyone teased out the numbers for how much it could cost to get rid of public service staff? If you get rid of a public servant, you will have to pay them redundancy (lump sum). The same, by the way, would happen if you decide to get rid of people who are near retirement age - another lump sum. Assuming then that they don't find a job, they'll need the dole, a medical card, help with paying their rent/mortgage, ESB and all the other benefits that unemployed people get. The state will also lose the tax and PRSI that go back into the state coffers. Also, though perhaps less tangible, is the money that they won't be spending in local businesses.

    Yes, I'd agree that there are public servants that are overpaid but it's a simplistic argument to say that people should be sacked. It should be a last resort IMHO - look into pay cuts first.


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    #252
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    CDfm wrote: »
    Where is the evidence of all the increase in psycho and disturbed kids?I find it hard to believe that its any greater than in past generations. I went to school with deaf kids,dyslexics,epileptics, abused kids etc.

    Maybe teachers are not able to cope or have got used to having loads of specialists helping.

    I presume you are a teacher- as you are suggesting cuts in areas that dont affect you. The point is that cuts will affect everyone- and everyone in the public service has to realise it-including teachers.

    Audtistic children need one to one attention. They can function properly in society if they get this at an early age. If they don't get it, they live off the state for live in some cases so it works out cheaper in the long run to educate them properly.

    We don't need to get rid of teachers, we just need to get rid of bad teachers and replace them with good teachers. We already have high classroom sizes.


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    #253
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    brim4brim wrote: »
    Audtistic children need one to one attention.

    We don't need to get rid of teachers, we just need to get rid of bad teachers and replace them with good teachers. We already have high classroom sizes.

    where did all the autistic kids come from and what was done with them before.

    it seems to me the D of E has accessed the funding for them and via special EU funds are recioeving grants for this type of education.

    This alsdo cant have been done without the Teachers repreentatives involvement.

    How will you fire bad teachers - I didnt think there were any only problem children?


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    #254
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    CDfm wrote: »
    where did all the autistic kids come from and what was done with them before.

    it seems to me the D of E has accessed the funding for them and via special EU funds are recioeving grants for this type of education.

    This alsdo cant have been done without the Teachers repreentatives involvement.

    How will you fire bad teachers - I didnt think there were any only problem children?

    Well before they were left to have no quality of life as they didn't know how to teach them.

    I'm guessing you can assess teachers performance same as any other employee. If a large percentage of a teachers class is below the norm that it is most likely a poor teacher. Or you could allow students to rate their teachers performance if that made teachers more comfortable :P


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    #255
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    brim4brim wrote: »
    Or you could allow students to rate their teachers performance if that made teachers more comfortable :P

    Do you mean like on this link here that the ASTI helped publicise http://ocaoimh.ie/2005/04/12/ratemyteachersie-ireland-education-and-teacher-ratings-by-students-and-parents/


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    #256
    11:11
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭11:11


    RobBrn wrote: »
    Are we really being ripped of by the public sector.

    They never miss a pay increase.
    They get "benchmarking" which is really just an electoral bribe.
    They get massive pensions.
    They can't be sacked.
    They decide how much we should pay to them so they can have wages far in excess of private workers.
    They get huge mileage allowances
    They get huge over night allowances - un-vouched.
    They threaten strike at the drop of a hat.
    They are backed up by politicians , Regardless

    The recent debacle with FAS is just an example. Probably just the exposure of the "Tip of the Iceberg"

    Is it not time that we demanded an end to this in equality, only equaled in the former USSR

    It's a big club....and you're not invited! These people know what they're doing. Manipulating the scales so that they're in their favor.

    Why is it that most every big event always falls on the people? Have a think about that one.

    War: it's the civilians who die and fight. The politicians stay at home in luxury telling the people they must fight their war, because it's undemocratic to do so.

    Terrorism: Usually is public unrest against the people who control things from the top, unfortunately this unrest gets thrown on the public again, who are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The unrest is basically injustice by the government targeted, but why kill the people?

    Financial Crisis: Always hit the average people most. Right now we are seeing businesses crash, and high earners crushed, but in reality these guys are selling out, walking away with whatever they can get (bonuses for firing people and whatever they can get from selling company). They are still stinking rich, while calling on politicians to help them. They are not out of house and home, so what's the problem?

    In all instances, it's the 'higher echelons' who always strive no matter what. It's because they've got the contacts and the cliques, they know what's going to happen, how the people will react and always make a fat wad of cash in the mean time.

    Welcome to reality.

    11:11


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    #257
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Isnt it amazing that we have seen no Public Servant or their Union Representative or anyone from the Labour Party that recieves contributions from the Unions come out and say- the country needs our help to get thru this crisis- lets sit down and work this out.


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    #258
    BroomBurner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    CDfm wrote: »
    Isnt it amazing that we have seen no Public Servant or their Union Representative or anyone from the Labour Party that recieves contributions from the Unions come out and say- the country needs our help to get thru this crisis- lets sit down and work this out.

    Wow, your ignorance really amazes me. You come on posting about things you have no clue on, making comments about why things aren't happening when they already are. Do you read the papers at all? Do you listen to the news at all? Or do you believe your own opinions are enough to suffice?

    Yesterdays Irish Times carried an article on a letter from the Public Service Executive Union to its members outlining the impacts of the downturn, etc. etc. etc.


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    #259
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    Wow, your ignorance really amazes me. You come on posting about things you have no clue on, making comments about why things aren't happening when they already are. Do you read the papers at all? Do you listen to the news at all? Or do you believe your own opinions are enough to suffice?

    Yesterdays Irish Times carried an article on a letter from the Public Service Executive Union to its members outlining the impacts of the downturn, etc. etc. etc.

    I was working yesterday. Am in the private sector dontcha know. Started at 9 am and finished at 11.15pm.

    Didnt have time to read a paper or watch the news.

    BTW it would be nice if you can post a link so us with jobs can have a look.


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    #260
    BroomBurner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    CDfm wrote: »
    I was working yesterday. Am in the private sector dontcha know. Started at 9 am and finished at 11.15pm.

    Didnt have time to read a paper or watch the news.

    BTW it would be nice if you can post a link so us with jobs can have a look.

    If you have time to post on Boards, you have time to go to www.irishtimes.com and read the news.


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    #261
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    If you have time to post on Boards, you have time to go to www.irishtimes.com and read the news.

    This is the guy who says his members will strike if pay is cut.Sounds very reasonable guy.

    Good for him

    Oh wait - public servant pay is the issue and while acknowledging the problem he is giving the rest of us the 2 fingers- a lovely man.


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0113/1231738220911.html?via=rel


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    #262
    BroomBurner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    CDfm wrote: »
    This is the guy who says his members will strike if pay is cut.

    Good for him

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0113/1231738220911.html?via=rel

    You love misquoting thigns to suit your own ends, don't you?

    What he actually said was that if the government look to make vast cuts without engaging in dialogue, then they may be forced to take action. However, he was very clear in saying that he is open to dialogue and that he understands (as does his union) that change is needed.

    To me, he sounds like a union rep doing his job.


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    #263
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    If you have time to post on Boards, you have time to go to www.irishtimes.com and read the news.
    I am very choosey about my reading material and dont read comics.

    Your priorities are all wrong on Boards vs Irish Times.:(


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    #264
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    One thing is missing from the article, the deficit is projected to be €20bn this year in a country with tax revenues of €35-40bn per yr hence that dialogue better be ameniable to changes or the country will go bankrupt very fast.


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    #265
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    The public sector will have to take a cut period. The money isn't going to come from anywhere else the private sector seems pretty ****ed as it is.

    Interesting though the amount of private sector apologists who have the time to defend their jobs on boards, have they nothing to do?;)


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    #266
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    You love misquoting thigns to suit your own ends, don't you?

    What he actually said was that if the government look to make vast cuts without engaging in dialogue, then they may be forced to take action. However, he was very clear in saying that he is open to dialogue and that he understands (as does his union) that change is needed.

    To me, he sounds like a union rep doing his job.
    There is a vast difference between leaking a letter to a newspaper and sitting down man to man with Government ministers and engaging in discussion.

    He really grabs the initiative this guy does.


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    #267
    Devious
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭Devious


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    You love misquoting thigns to suit your own ends, don't you?

    What he actually said was that if the government look to make vast cuts without engaging in dialogue, then they may be forced to take action. However, he was very clear in saying that he is open to dialogue and that he understands (as does his union) that change is needed.

    To me, he sounds like a union rep doing his job.

    This is his actual quote:

    "However, we have no intention of agreeing to actual cuts in our members' rates of pay or basic pension arrangements."

    Yep, doing his job alright - bleedin the country dry!


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    #268
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Seriously I just want to ask all public servants on this forum where they suggest the government find the money to continue paying for the day to day expense of running the country ?

    Where would public servants cut expenditure ?

    Do public servants suggest the government increase borrowing to run the country and pay for day to day expenditure ?


    What will happen when the ECB/EU/IMF demand we do something about our borrowing if we continue ?

    I just wonder how many people on here would try and borrow more money when their wages and income don't cover their household expenses ?

    I am not allowed discuss …



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    #269
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    CDfm wrote: »
    I was working yesterday. Am in the private sector dontcha know. Started at 9 am and finished at 11.15pm..
    How many times did you post messages on boards.ie during that period?


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    #270
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    How many times did you post messages on boards.ie during that period?

    During conference calls a bit - its a distraction.Its the nature of the work that I do that I can

    THink of it -that guy in Bank of Ireland would still have his job if he had been a boardsie


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    #271
    BroomBurner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    jmayo wrote: »
    Seriously I just want to ask all public servants on this forum where they suggest the government find the money to continue paying for the day to day expense of running the country ?

    Where would public servants cut expenditure ?

    Do public servants suggest the government increase borrowing to run the country and pay for day to day expenditure ?


    What will happen when the ECB/EU/IMF demand we do something about our borrowing if we continue ?

    I just wonder how many people on here would try and borrow more money when their wages and income don't cover their household expenses ?

    QUestion 1, 2 and 3: I would suggest you read the whole post, plus all threads on this topic, in particular in the Economics forum. Public servants aren't demons you know, contrary to the belief of some private sector (jealous) workers

    Question 4: We are a long long way off the IMF coming in to "fix" us, so its not really worth worrying about

    Question 5: Isn't that part of the problem that got us in to this mess?


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