Way too many double deckers on Dublin's streets

paulm17781

bazzer wrote: »

So it is. As you can see, I don't have a good sense of direction!

That's a legal turn.

monument

markpb wrote: »

On the other hand, what do you think is on O'Connell street that people want to get to?

I'll use a err broad version of public transport catchment rather than just what is on the street... From the ones you named and other...

• the Savoy
• the GPO
• Luas
• Other buses
• Easons
• Clearys
• access to Henry St
• meeting points like the spire
• restaurants (there's at least five I can think of)
• a Garda station
• Dublin Bus HQ
• banks
• Pennys
• a Sony Centre
• the Ambassador
• the Academy
• a number of pubs in different directions (Fibbers, The Church etc -- and yes I can name a few more if you like?)
• plus access to Jervis SC
• plus access to shops like Peats,...
• Smyths,
• ToyMaster,
• Maplin,
• and Cineworld, of course
• access to the IFSC and the Docklands,
• and to Connolly Station
• Talbot Street
• Independent Newspapers
• Irish Aid
• Department of Education & Science
• a Revenue office
• hotels and hostels on the street and near by
• internet cafes
• CIE's travel centre
• other travel agents
• Access to Moore Street
• Access to Parnell Street

And a lot of people would view it as walking distance to Temple Bar and even the Point etc ("because from there I know the way", I was once told. And there's lots and lots of other offices, shops and shopping centres and general places of employment, and residents on the street or near by I'm missing from that list.

So, is there any chance of getting over this concept that there's nothing on or near O'Connell Street? Maybe talk about transport rather then pretending a load of offices, shops, shopping centres, services, pubs and entertainment venues aren't on and near the street?

paulm17781

monument wrote: »

I'll use a err broad version of public transport catchment rather than just what is on the street... From the ones you named and other...

<snip>

So, is there any chance of getting over this concepct that there's nothing on or near O'Connell Street?

So you're saying what's near the street. Why don't the buses go nearer these places. I nearly always get out at O'Connell st. (4,7) a stop at Westmorland st. would be far handier for me and probably everyone else, except for those going to upper O'Connell st.

curious-pup

my main problem with Dublin Bus is that the bus stops are so close together! It always seems like just when you get going you have to stop again at yet another bus stop

monument

paulm17781 wrote: »

So you're saying what's near the street. Why don't the buses go nearer these places. I nearly always get out at O'Connell st. (4,7) a stop at Westmorland st. would be far handier for me and probably everyone else, except for those going to upper O'Connell st.

Maybe it would have been more helpful if I broke the list into on the street, just off the street, close to the street, and what's not that close but there's no better way there.

But as it stands I listed places on both side of the street -- how exactly would the services go nearer to everything? Note that the bulk of the places I listed would be within the 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 min Luas and Dart catchment maps on the DTO's website.

Cookie_Monster

curious-pup wrote: »

my main problem with Dublin Bus is that the bus stops are so close together! It always seems like just when you get going you have to stop again at yet another bus stop

Yes, this is a major pain (esp in town) but could you imagine the uproar that would be caused if DB turned around and said they were taking out every second stop to reduce dwelling time and speed up route. It would never be allowed to happen despite being needed on a lot of streets.

It's gotten so bad sure they have to have bus stop on the bridge itself! How long before that outside lane becomes another terminus

paulm17781

monument wrote: »

Maybe it would have been more helpful if I broke the list into on the street, just off the street, close to the street, and what's not that close but there's no better way there.

Because you're implying people do want to go to O'Connell st. In fact, most don't they want to go near it. I guarantee that any bus that stops on Westmorland st and O'Connell st that more get out at Westmorland st.

There are parts of the quays that are nearer Smyths / Jervis than O'Connell st. is. In fact, I would say most of what you listed could be accessed from the quays, Parnal st. or Marlborough st. quicker than it could from O'Connell st. Cleary's, Eason and the GPO are the only real attractions on O'Connell st, everything else you listed isn't important enough for people to go to O'Connell st (they could easily go elsewhere) or there is a closer point than O'Connell st.

No, I do not think the bus should drop everyone right to their destination. I do however think DB are using a 1950s map of Dublin and don't realise that there are far more places in Dublin that people want to go to and far better ways for buses to be utilised.

monument wrote: »

But as it stands I listed places on both side of the street -- how exactly would the services go nearer to everything? Note that the bulk of the places I listed would be within the 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 min Luas and Dart catchment maps on the DTO's website.

You use different routes. For example. Every bus that goes along the Rock rd goes the same route through town. Why not have them all take different routes eg. via Stephen's green or along the quays? This way people on a main corridor can get to different parts of the city, not just O'Connell st.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Yes, this is a major pain (esp in town) but could you imagine the uproar that would be caused if DB turned around and said they were taking out every second stop to reduce dwelling time and speed up route. It would never be allowed to happen despite being needed on a lot of streets.

It's gotten so bad sure they have to have bus stop on the bridge itself! How long before that outside lane becomes another terminus

The stop on the bridge was forced onto Dublin Bus by Dublin City Council.

It should be located outside the Ulster Bank on Lower O'Connell Street but was relocated due to the cycle lane that was introduced as an experiment by DCC.

markpb

monument wrote: »

I'll use a err broad version of public transport catchment rather than just what is on the street... From the ones you named and other...

You just listed things that don't apply (a closed garda station) or don't make sense (there are other post offices than the GPO), you said people get off at OCS because they know the way to other places from there - why do you think that is. Could it be because that's where a lot of bus terminate? Then you said you listed everything that's 9 minutes walk from there. That's not a good reason to route lots of buses through there, it's a good reason to get off the bus if your bus goes there. You're using circular logic.

OCS is popular with the public because it's popular with Dublin Bus. Years ago people would have said Middle Abbey st was a busy place but then along came the Luas and washed DB away and look at it now.....

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

Because you're implying people do want to go to O'Connell st. In fact, most don't they want to go near it. I guarantee that any bus that stops on Westmorland st and O'Connell st that more get out at Westmorland st.

There are parts of the quays that are nearer Smyths / Jervis than O'Connell st. is. In fact, I would say most of what you listed could be accessed from the quays, Parnal st. or Marlborough st. quicker than it could from O'Connell st. Cleary's, Eason and the GPO are the only real attractions on O'Connell st, everything else you listed isn't important enough for people to go to O'Connell st (they could easily go elsewhere) or there is a closer point than O'Connell st.

No, I do not think the bus should drop everyone right to their destination. I do however think DB are using a 1950s map of Dublin and don't realise that there are far more places in Dublin that people want to go to and far better ways for buses to be utilised.

Most of the buses serving O'Connell Street are coming from either South Great Georges St, Nassau Street or Pearse Street. While some from Pearse Street could be relocated to Gardiner Street fairly easily, it would not be very easy for any of those routes to serve Capel Street or Jervis Street as they would have to take an exceptionally long diversion.

spareman

markpb wrote: »

On the other hand, what do you think is on O'Connell street that people want to get to? Other than Savoy (and Cineworld which is unserved by buses), Easons, Clearys and access to Henry St, there's honestly not a lot there. Most people go there to a) get another bus or b) meet someone off a bus. It's popular with DB customers because thats where all the buses go.

If you want to go to Busaras or Connolly, the closest most buses will bring you (coming in from the suburbs) is O'Connell St. If you want to go to Cineworld or Henry St, the closest buses will bring you to O'Connell St. If you're travelling cross city, O'Connell st is the best interchange. I'm now saying this is a fault of DB (the closes alternatives aren't great) but if you run all your buses to OCS, it'll become a hub of sorts.

Very good point, I never tought of it that way, Most passengers would be getting another bus to somewhere else I suppose, So of the thosands of people walking around O Connell street everyday half of them probably have no other business being there only to catch another bus.
We need to build a major bus terminus/Hud near city center then, Where all the city center routes can pass through, Docklands might have been a good spot for it.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

My memory is I suggested 3 routes and was actually trying to start a conversation to see what routes other people thought could have better routing but you and "the lads" came and killed my thread. Not really the point of this thread other than "The DB brigade" attacking people who suggest alternatives.

Nobody is attacking anyone

Gardiner St is not a viable alternative given the quagmire around Busaras and the Quays

Church St is also not a viable alternative


Could they be made alternatives YES of course they could is that in the control of DB NO

There is absolutely no point in placing buses onto streets which cannot handle them.


When Aircoach set up their route where did they go? Down O'Connell St.
Why? because it is
A where the people are
B the quickest way across town

Not because it is the only street they know.


If I want to get from drumcondra to Rathmines then of course I don't care whether I traverse O'Connell St or not but what I do care about is getting there as quickly as possible so at the moment the quickest most reliable way is down O'Connell St. So I would not be willing to take my chances on Gardiner St or Church St or any other Street

spareman

curious-pup wrote: »

my main problem with Dublin Bus is that the bus stops are so close together! It always seems like just when you get going you have to stop again at yet another bus stop

I agree, But when we are on walking sticks we will apreciate it.

bk

paulm17781 wrote: »

Because you're implying people do want to go to O'Connell st. In fact, most don't they want to go near it. I guarantee that any bus that stops on Westmorland st and O'Connell st that more get out at Westmorland st.

I disagree, I regularly get pretty much every bus that goes Drumcondra -> OCS -> Westmoreland St. and I can tell you that the vast majority of passengers get off at OCS.

It is also worth noting that OCS will likely become the premier shopping street and shopping destination in the next 10 to 15 years with all the massive new retail developments happening along there. Namely the Northern Quarter development (Arnotts Redevelopment) and the Dublin Central development (Carlton site redevelopment) will absolutely transform the location. We will have Debenhams, Arnotts, Clerys, Marks And Spencers and now John Lewis on or just off the Street and strong rumours continue to swirl that House of Fraiser and Brown Thomas are looking to move onto the St (perhaps by buying out Clerys).

Along with Metro North, OCS will likely look radically different 10 years from now and will be definitely be the destination most people will want to go to then.

AlekSmart

Excellent debate here which is NOT being mirrored in any of the places which do HAVE power to change these things.

As for bk`s point re the impending development plans for the street,it remains a mystery why NONE of the plans have ANY facility for Public Transport access as an inclusive feature.

Irish developers are not of the civic minded breed and so cannot be expected to even comprehend such mysterious aspects as a covered Bus interchange.

However the City Council and The Planning Board ARE planning PROFESSIONALS who have (?) a clear and consise understanding of Government Policy on such matters and also of Global liabilities which Ireland Inc has under such things as Koto.

It is NOW therefore that the Planing Profesionals should be pointing out to the mohair suited ones the basic good-sense of incorporating Public Transport Facilities from the initial stage rather than in typical Irish style attempting to tack something on the periphery some years later.

It should not be beyond the ken of professional planning administrators to devise a Planning Strategy which awards "Merit Points" for including such wonders as a Bus/Tram station or Halt as an inclusive part of any commercial development.

These "Merits" could perhaps then be used to offset percieved deficiencies in other areas of lesser impact,such as render texture,paint shades or whatever.

From what I have gleaned,NONE of the developments mentioned by bk have ANY dedicated Public Transport element included as an inherent basic element of the overall plan.
If I were a senior executive of Bus Atha Cliath I would be beating a track to these Developers doors TODAY with clearly laid out plans of just how many shoppers the company`s fleet COULD drop directly at their doors if only the facilities were there from the outset.

Why is this sort of thing NOT occurring..????

LACK OF INTEREST ! :mad:

bk

Actually the Dublin Central plan includes 1,111 car parking spaces!!!

However on the other hand OCS is likely to be one of the busiest transport hubs in the city, with all the buses, Luas and Metro North. Of course AlekSmart is correct these should and could be far better integrated.

monument

paulm17781 wrote: »

everything else you listed isn't important enough for people to go to O'Connell st (they could easily go elsewhere)

Isn't important to whom?

markpb wrote: »

...or don't make sense (there are other post offices than the GPO),

People often don't make sense. And, anyway, there are many other of a load of different things I listed in other places that doesn't detract from these things being located on or near the street.

That's a myth that is being repeated on these boards for ages.

markpb wrote: »

you said people get off at OCS because they know the way to other places from there - why do you think that is. Could it be because that's where a lot of bus terminate?

No, it's more likely that the street is so well known people know how to get around from there. Generally speaking, if you're describing how to get to X you often Y which is the main street.

markpb wrote: »

Then you said you listed everything that's 9 minutes walk from there. That's not a good reason to route lots of buses through there, it's a good reason to get off the bus if your bus goes there. You're using circular logic.

What is contained in a catchment area should not be looked at when planning public transport? That's a bemusing statement!

But in any I was just dealing with the myth there's nothing on and near the street.

Years ago people would have said Middle Abbey st was a busy place but then along came the Luas and washed DB away and look at it now.....

Have you looked at it now?

The Luas alone makes the street pretty busy, the footpaths are normally busy too, and by night there's the Academy. In view of where it goes, the traffic lane is also used quite a bit.

paulm17781 wrote: »

Because you're implying people do want to go to O'Connell st. In fact, most don't they want to go near it.
I guarantee that any bus that stops on Westmorland st and O'Connell st that more get out at Westmorland st.

That could be argued about any public transport stop.

There are parts of the quays that are nearer Smyths / Jervis than O'Connell st. is. In fact, I would say most of what you listed could be accessed from the quays, Parnal st. or Marlborough st. quicker than it could from O'Connell st. Cleary's, Eason and the GPO are the only real attractions on O'Connell st, everything else you listed isn't important enough for people to go to O'Connell st (they could easily go elsewhere) or there is a closer point than O'Connell st.

I'd like to see you getting your crayons out and re-routing the buses.

In any case, there are a ton of buses already using the quays, so where are all the ones currently going to O'Connell going to fit?

You use different routes. For example. Every bus that goes along the Rock rd goes the same route through town. Why not have them all take different routes eg. via Stephen's green or along the quays? This way people on a main corridor can get to different parts of the city, not just O'Connell st.

There's a strong argument that this is the opposite of what needs to happen with Dublin Bus. Splitting routes reduces or at least devices service. Which makes it look like there are less buses per hour. It also makes the bus harder to use for people who don't use it often or who are taking a route they don't normally take.

punchdrunk

imo the screen cinema,an post offices on townsend st, and that building behind it,i think it's dept of health? should be leveled and a central bus terminus (with metro terminus built below it) built,it's close enough to the grafton area,it would easily serve the southern side of the docklands,that whole are is a shambles at the moment anyway