Ciaran Cuffe (Greens) attempts to defend his uninformed radio interview

turgon

Following on from his ridiculous radio appearence earlier in the week, Ciaran Cuffe took it upon himself to reply to criticism with a letter to the Irish Examiner:

Irish Examiner Letters, Tuesday 25th November 08 wrote:

I AM flattered by the amount of coverage (November 20) you devoted to my recent contribution to RTE radio’s ‘Today with Pat Kenny’.

I fully take the point being made by your political writer in his barbed comment piece. No, I won’t be giving up the day job anytime soon in favour of pursuing a career on the airwaves.

But your leader writer was unduly harsh in excoriating me for being unable to state the exact boundaries which will apply in regard to the €200 workplace parking levy in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford.

Now the relevant legislation has been published you will realise we will not know these exact boundaries for a little while more. And there is a good reason for this.

The Government needs time to investigate the boundary issue in detail. Otherwise, when people compare a free workplace car park with nearby on-street pay parking, most people are likely to see the idea is fair.

Looking back at other initiatives in the past — such as the smoky-coal ban, the plastic bag levy and the pub smoking ban — you find these had one thing in common: all were heavily criticised as too flawed to work — and then they worked!

Linky

I love the part "Im flattered". Em, what is this guy thinking? He tried to defend himself but did so in a manner that falls right into the steroetype of Hairy Fairy Enviromentalist. Why do they feel the need to give us more reasons to just dismiss them as a political cloud that achieves so little. Especcially now they have fallen right into the PD's slot, defending FF no matter what. Example Dan Boyle defending Brian Cowen for defending Rody Fàs Boss.

Am I alone in thinking the Greens are becoming increasingly redundant?

Fratton Fred

I think he has responded quite well. IMHO, he comes across as playing down unnecesary criticism rather than being a cuddly green fairy.

crap idea about the parking though, but that's a different subject

turgon

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think he has responded quite well. IMHO, he comes across as playing down unnecesary criticism rather than being a cuddly green fairy.

Ok. But to be honest, considering that he was being thrown so much abuse (the piece he responded to was very critical), I thought saying he was "flattered" was just trying to squirm out of the fact he had cocked up.

Scofflaw

turgon wrote: »

Ok. But to be honest, considering that he was being thrown so much abuse (the piece he responded to was very critical), I thought saying he was "flattered" was just trying to squirm out of the fact he had cocked up.

Least said soonest mended is a good philosophy in public life - would it have been better to either respond angrily or repeat the criticism?

(Confession: I admit to slight bias in the matter).

cordially,
Scofflaw

CtrlSource

turgon wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking the Greens are becoming increasingly redundant?

No, you're not alone in your "stupid tree-hugging lefty pinko airy fairy eco-hippies" view of the Greens. But such a view is clearly misguided and unfounded.

Can you give me reasons why you think The Green Party are becoming "increasingly redundant"?

Increasingly relevant more like!

Gandalf23

Let me just say that I supported the Green Party and voted for them in the last election. I was always a vehement advocate of green policies and I was delighted they finally got power after the last election.

I have since changed my mind. I am now totally disillusioned with the Greens and hope they get distroyed in the locals and next general election.

IMHO, the greens are a spent and redundant political force, and it will be a very very long time before they are trusted by the public again.

Darragh29

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Let me just say that I supported the Green Party and voted for them in the last election. I was always a vehement advocate of green policies and I was delighted they finally got power after the last election.

I have since changed my mind. I am now totally disillusioned with the Greens and hope they get distroyed in the locals and next general election.

IMHO, the greens are a spent and redundant political force, and it will be a very very long time before they are trusted by the public again.



I'll answer this.

This does NOT even include the farce of the last budget ... this all comes from BEFORE the budget!

The Green Party in their first 18 months in Government with Fianna Fail support;
- hospital Co-Location
- extra Holidays for the Dail
- additional Junior Ministries
- Tte Poolbeg Incinerator
- the Destruction of Tara
- the Corrib gas pipeline
- Local Gov Reform (but only AFTER the next Local elections!!!!!)
- the removal of Shannon airport routes
- The European Reform Treaty
- the proposed salary increases for Ministers (remember those???)
- the original route of the M3 motorway
- the continued use of Shannon by US troops
(ALL u-turns from their policies before the last election, and most DIRECTLY OPPOSED to what they said in their election manifesto).


And as for grants for "green" policies that Eamon Ryan is always on about ... how have they fared since the Greens have come to power?

- The grant for a wood pellet boiler system has been cut by 1200 euro.
- The grant for a vertical heat pump has been cut by 3000 euro.
- The grant for a horizontal heat pump has been cut by 1800 euro.
- The grant for an air source heat pump has been cut by 2000 euro.
- The grant for flat plate solar collectors has been cut? by 50 euro/sqm.




All this as well as constantly underwriting the shoddy ethics and incompetence of FF.

Not to mention managing the impressive task of doing a u-turn on almost everything they stood for in opposition.



It gives me no pleasure to say this, but good riddance. Gormley and co have managed to distroy the Greens for a generation in Irish politics. They will not be easily forgiven.

+1. I gave the Greens a vote for change, and look what we end up with, more of the fu*king same. Never ever again.

spadder

+1, I am ashamed to say I voted for the Muppets too. Never again. The clowns are giving environmental awareness a bad name.

Roll on the local elections.

Scofflaw

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Let me just say that I supported the Green Party and voted for them in the last election. I was always a vehement advocate of green policies and I was delighted they finally got power after the last election.

I have since changed my mind. I am now totally disillusioned with the Greens and hope they get distroyed in the locals and next general election.

IMHO, the greens are a spent and redundant political force, and it will be a very very long time before they are trusted by the public again.



I'll answer this.

This does NOT even include the farce of the last budget ... this all comes from BEFORE the budget!

The Green Party in their first 18 months in Government with Fianna Fail support;
- hospital Co-Location
- extra Holidays for the Dail
- additional Junior Ministries
- Tte Poolbeg Incinerator
- the Destruction of Tara
- the Corrib gas pipeline
- Local Gov Reform (but only AFTER the next Local elections!!!!!)
- the removal of Shannon airport routes
- The European Reform Treaty
- the proposed salary increases for Ministers (remember those???)
- the original route of the M3 motorway
- the continued use of Shannon by US troops


And as for grants for "green" policies that Eamon Ryan is always on about ... how have they fared since the Greens have come to power?

- The grant for a wood pellet boiler system has been cut by 1200 euro.
- The grant for a vertical heat pump has been cut by 3000 euro.
- The grant for a horizontal heat pump has been cut by 1800 euro.
- The grant for an air source heat pump has been cut by 2000 euro.
- The grant for flat plate solar collectors has been cut? by 50 euro/sqm.




All this as well as constantly underwriting the shoddy ethics and incompetence of FF.

Not to mention managing the impressive task of doing a u-turn on almost everything they stood for in opposition.



It gives me no pleasure to say this, but good riddance. Gormley and co have managed to distroy the Greens for a generation in Irish politics. They will not be easily forgiven.

Hmm. I don;t think you voted for a political party at all. I think you voted for some kind of band of Green superheroes.

The case of the grant cuts, by the way, was mostly that the original grant programs came to an end. The Greens got them renewed, which would otherwise not have happened. They were renewed at a lower rate because it was found that they were above the level that people would apply at.

Say you have €3,000,000 in the kitty for a boiler grant. If you set the grant level at €3,000, you can give it to 1,000 people. If 3,000 people apply - and the grant is over-subscribed - then it is probable you could have offered a lower grant and served more people. You can test that by lowering the grant to €2,000, say - if the grant is still fully subscribed, you will have encouraged 1,500 boilers instead of 1,000.

The point of the grant is not to give the maximum money for a boiler to each person, but to encourage the maximum number of boilers.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Gandalf23

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm. I don;t think you voted for a political party at all. I think you voted for some kind of band of Green superheroes.

No. I voted for people who I thought would keep their word. (As opposed to doing a u-turn on almost everything they promised, and supporting one of the most unfair and unethical budgets in the history of the state).

Gandalf23

I dont want to drag this thread too far off topic ... so I heavily edited my post above and started a new thread about the Greens in power here.

Apologies.

turgon

CtrlSource wrote: »

Can you give me reasons why you think The Green Party are becoming "increasingly redundant"?

See above posts. They are just coming Fianna Fail rebranded. They unquestioningly support everything they do. They should have taken heed to the PD's fold up recently, and more importantly its causes.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Least said soonest mended is a good philosophy in public life - would it have been better to either respond angrily or repeat the criticism?

(Confession: I admit to slight bias in the matter)

Of course coming off as a hothead would have been worse. But he could have just said he wasnt informed properly. I like honesty, and being able to admit openly when you were wrong is a great asset in everyone, not least a politician.

Are you a member then? Im telling you, at one point about a year ago I was giving serious thought to joining them, but have recently become "disallusioned", to rob Gandalf23s phrase.

Scofflaw

turgon wrote: »

See above posts. They are just coming Fianna Fail rebranded. They unquestioningly support everything they do. They should have taken heed to the PD's fold up recently, and more importantly its causes.

Of course coming off as a hothead would have been worse. But he could have just said he wasnt informed properly. I like honesty, and being able to admit openly when you were wrong is a great asset in everyone, not least a politician.

Are you a member then? Im telling you, at one point about a year ago I was giving serious thought to joining them, but have recently become "disallusioned", to rob Gandalf23s phrase.

I'm not in fact a member - I have a rooted aversion to joining things, I think. No, I voted Green at the last election, as I've done before, this time in the expectation that they would wind up in government one way or the other. So I've no more claim to be a Green spokesman than anyone else.

I was in favour of the coalition with FF. I saw the PFG agreement that was on offer, and I thought that was an OK deal given the Greens weren't really required to make up the majority. I didn't expect the coalition to yield anything more than a very slight green tinge, but hoped that at least it put some kind of a stop to Roche's gallop of destruction and force some green issues onto the agenda. I also hoped that they might drop some of their flakier ideas under the pressure of government.

So, as you might imagine, I'm not disappointed. I didn't expect the Greens in government to deliver on any of these:

- hospital Co-Location
- extra Holidays for the Dail
- additional Junior Ministries
- Tte Poolbeg Incinerator
- the Destruction of Tara
- the Corrib gas pipeline
- Local Gov Reform (but only AFTER the next Local elections!!!!!)
- the removal of Shannon airport routes
- The European Reform Treaty
- the proposed salary increases for Ministers (remember those???)
- the original route of the M3 motorway
- the continued use of Shannon by US troops

- because they weren't part of the deal. What did people expect, exactly? That the Greens would pull off a whole load of things that weren't agreed? How would that work? The Greens would hold FF over a barrel - what barrel?

Now, having failed to walk out of government over the thousand issues they've been called on to do so over, the Greens are finally perhaps in a position to hold FF over a barrel and extract some additional concessions - but, really, that's about where it is.

This is why I'm disappointed by those who appear to have had some expectation of a junior coalition party being able to reverse the prevailing two decades-old trend of government. It's not realistic. Yes, everyone points to the PDs - but they're missing the point (as well as how long it took for PD ideas to be taken on board by FF).

FF aren't a party, they're not ideologically driven - they're managerial. They need ideas from somewhere, and they adopt the prevailing trend. At the end of the 80's voters wanted innovative "market-oriented" and "socially progressive" ideas. They'd seen the positive (!) effects of Thatcherism on the UK, and they wanted some of that action. FF needed someone to have those ideas. The PDs fitted that bill perfectly. The PDs didn't have a huge effect on policy because they were the junior partner, but because they were chosen to be FF's think tank - and they're still there.

Bertie, seeing the way the wind was blowing, probably reckoned that FF would need green ideas to keep up with where the electorate wanted to go - so he brought the Greens on board. And yes, when FF reckons they're past their sell-by date, they'll ditch them. Such is life - FF are the only game in town most of the time. In the interim, we can look for some green moves that FF wouldn't have made, and I think we're seeing those. I consider that well worth my vote, and it's early days yet. I hope to see the Greens occupying the position the PDs now occupy as FF's idea generator - it won't happen overnight, but the process will have speeded up with the demise of the PDs and the recent couple of defections.


cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

turgon wrote: »

Ok. But to be honest, considering that he was being thrown so much abuse (the piece he responded to was very critical), I thought saying he was "flattered" was just trying to squirm out of the fact he had cocked up.

I read "flattered" as a self-depreciating joke to be honest. It is really hard to tell when it comes to the written word sometimes.

Raiser

CtrlSource wrote: »

No, you're not alone in your "stupid tree-hugging lefty pinko airy fairy eco-hippies" view of the Greens. But such a view is clearly misguided and unfounded.

Can you give me reasons why you think The Green Party are becoming "increasingly redundant"?

Increasingly relevant more like!

I hope that Gandalf doesn't mind me re-posting this - but theres no point in re-inventing the wheel.

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I have been a lifelong Green supporter, and I supported/canvassed for the Green Party in the last election. I was always a vehement advocate of green policies and I was delighted they finally got power after the last election.

I have since changed my mind. I am now totally disillusioned with the Greens.



This is my assessment of the Greens first 18 months in power. This does NOT include their farcical performance in support of the last budget ... this all comes from BEFORE the budget!

The Green Party in their first 18 months in Government with Fianna Fail support;
- hospital Co-Location
- extra Holidays for the Dail
- additional Junior Ministries
- the Poolbeg Incinerator
- the Destruction of Tara
- the Corrib gas pipeline
- Local Gov reform (but only AFTER the next Local elections!!!!!)
- the removal of Shannon airport routes
- The European Reform Treaty
- the proposed salary increases for Ministers (remember those and Bertie the hapenny place???)
- the original route of the M3 motorway
- the continued use of Shannon by US troops
These are ALL u-turns from their policies before the last election, and most are DIRECTLY OPPOSED to what they said in their election manifesto.


And as for grants for "green" policies that Eamon Ryan is always on about ... how have they fared since the Greens have come to power?
- The grant for a wood pellet boiler system has been cut by 1200 euro.
- The grant for a vertical heat pump has been cut by 3000 euro.
- The grant for a horizontal heat pump has been cut by 1800 euro.
- The grant for an air source heat pump has been cut by 2000 euro.
- The grant for flat plate solar collectors has been cut? by 50 euro/sqm.


All this as well as constantly underwriting the shoddy ethics and incompetence of FF.


Not to mention managing the impressive task of doing a u-turn on almost everything they stood for in opposition, and what they explicitly promised before the last general election.


It gives me no pleasure to say this, but good riddance to the Green Party. Gormley and co have managed to distroy the Greens for a generation in Irish politics.

All they have done will not be easily forgotten, and they will not be easily forgiven.

My instinctive reaction to the current Governmental fiasco is that I wouldn't be surprised on seeing a Hyena skulking, thieving, showing its teeth and being a petty little shít - In much the same way why would the actions of Fianna Fail's scum surprise me? I expect it as its in the lowly nature of the animal......

- People are surprised by the Green Party however as we are just starting to learn how low they can go - and trust me, they are going to sink so low and continue to disgrace themselves so badly its going to be a spectacle.

turgon

Scofflaw wrote: »

What did people expect, exactly? That the Greens would pull off a whole load of things that weren't agreed? How would that work?

I see where your coming from, and my expectations before werent high. When I saw things like uneffcient bulbs being banned I though it was a step in the right directiong, and although a small step, a step that wouldnt have been taken if greens werent in government.

But I think with the resignation of Seargant after the election people took them to be of high morals, and one of the very few things they have the power to do is enables and overthrowing of the government. Rather than any policy issues in general, maybe people feels that they should have brought there high moralisty to the realm of national governance

CtrlSource

spadder wrote: »

+1, I am ashamed to say I voted for the Muppets too. Never again. The clowns are giving environmental awareness a bad name.

Roll on the local elections.

i fear that your view is a common one. People who were sympathetic to Green policies are deeply divided on their performance in Government. It will be interesting to see how they fare next year.

Gandalf23 wrote: »

No. I voted for people who I thought would keep their word. (As opposed to doing a u-turn on almost everything they promised, and supporting one of the most unfair and unethical budgets in the history of the state).

Have to disagree with you about the Budget. Whoever was responsible for this mess (and multiple factors were), the Gov face a huge challenge to stabilise the public finances. Some of their attempts to do so where rather ham-fisted, but i fail to see for instance, how a 1% income levy is unethical.

turgon wrote: »

Are you a member then? Im telling you, at one point about a year ago I was giving serious thought to joining them, but have recently become "disallusioned", to rob Gandalf23s phrase.

i know your question was for Scofflaw, but i want to admit slight bias too. i'm a member of The Green Party. One of the things i like about them (like in relation to Lisbon) is that they welcome debate and differing views at all levels within the party. Therefore i will continue to criticise the party's choices both within and without (like here). So please don't dismiss me now as a a total party man

OP, i fully agree with Scofflaw when he said he thinks you voted not for the Greens but for a band of Superheroes. There's no way the smaller party in a Coalition will ever be able to change the country overnight and overrule FF. My hope is still that they will make positive contributions though and i remain supportive of their staying in Government. i'm not sure if the original decision to agree a programme for government with FF was a good idea, but now they're there, i think they should stay, at least until the next debacle

Scofflaw

turgon wrote: »

What did people expect, exactly? That the Greens would pull off a whole load of things that weren't agreed? How would that work?

I see where your coming from, and my expectations before werent high. When I saw things like uneffcient bulbs being banned I though it was a step in the right directiong, and although a small step, a step that wouldnt have been taken if greens werent in government.

But I think with the resignation of Seargant after the election people took them to be of high morals, and one of the very few things they have the power to do is enables and overthrowing of the government. Rather than any policy issues in general, maybe people feels that they should have brought there high moralisty to the realm of national governance

So they should have gone into government simply to walk out? I think they could have shortcut that process by remaining on the opposition benches. The Greens still aren't in a position to "overthrow" the government - and I will think the less of them unless they did it for very good reasons. None of the things that were true before the Greens went into government forms such a valid reason in my view, because they were true before the Greens went into government. It's like marrying someone you know is an alcoholic - and then divorcing them for being an alcoholic.

FF aren't clean. Come to that, neither are FG or Labour - every one of the mainstream parties has had their fingers in the planning process, and every single one of the mainstream parties has allowed the US to use Shannon. The Greens will never be able to form a government except in coalition with people who are opposed to much of what they stand for, and who have the shadow of immoral dealings hanging over them. Under those circumstances the Greens can only retain the moral high ground by never getting involved in government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

Scofflaw wrote: »

The Greens will never be able to form a government except in coalition with people who are opposed to much of what they stand for, and who have the shadow of immoral dealings hanging over them. Under those circumstances the Greens can only retain the moral high ground by never getting involved in government.

And by taking the easy option of staying in perpetual opposition where they can keep the moral high ground and never have to actually implement any policy they give up any chance of enacting meaningful change in policy in this country.

A small ideological party like the Greens, or the PDs before them, have two options. They can enact change by getting into bed with one of the two "managerial" parties (i.e. FF or FG) and probably get swallowed by them but get some of their policies implemented or they can forever languish on the outside and only talk about change. It's easy to be idealistic in Opposition etc.

CtrlSource

nesf wrote: »

And by taking the easy option of staying in perpetual opposition where they can keep the moral high ground and never have to actually implement any policy they give up any chance of enacting meaningful change in policy in this country.

A small ideological party like the Greens, or the PDs before them, have two options. They can enact change by getting into bed with one of the two "managerial" parties (i.e. FF or FG) and probably get swallowed by them but get some of their policies implemented or they can forever languish on the outside and only talk about change. It's easy to be idealistic in Opposition etc.

+1.

Couldn't have put it any better, apart from the getting swallowed bit

old boy

what the greens in irish goverment, and what the green party are supposed to stand for is the crux of the arguement, i gave them a vote the last time, ah well you live and learn.

johnnyskeleton

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Let me just say that I supported the Green Party and voted for them in the last election. I was always a vehement advocate of green policies and I was delighted they finally got power after the last election.

I have since changed my mind. I am now totally disillusioned with the Greens and hope they get distroyed in the locals and next general election.

IMHO, the greens are a spent and redundant political force, and it will be a very very long time before they are trusted by the public again.

I voted all my adult life for the Greens. I voted for them in the last election on the basis that it would be an end to FF. When they joined government I tried to look at it positively - maybe they will get some changes through and make FF a little less right wing than they were under the PDs.

The result however is that the Greens are FF lite. We are actually worse now than if FF were in majority government because:

A) FF can offload all really crap decisions onto the greens
the greens are (trying) to add credibility to FF by constantly sticking up for them
C) the greens are being walked all over and don't seem to realise it
D) FF are now totally unchecked and are making a mockery of our country.

The best example I could give of how the Greens have changed is the Home Choice Loan Scheme. The Greens specifically state on their website that they are actively opposed to any scheme to artificially prop up house prices, yet they supported this scheme.

I also hope the Greens are destroyed, as they betrayed the people who voted for them.

johnnyskeleton

CtrlSource wrote: »

i know your question was for Scofflaw, but i want to admit slight bias too. i'm a member of The Green Party. One of the things i like about them (like in relation to Lisbon) is that they welcome debate and differing views at all levels within the party. Therefore i will continue to criticise the party's choices both within and without (like here). So please don't dismiss me now as a a total party man

I have to put it to you that that is completely incorrect and you know it. Apart from the fact that when first elected and the issue of whether to join FF in government or not was put to the party at large and the TDs walked out with their fingers in their ears whistling a tune and pretending that they had the overwhelming support of the party, I find that my local green TD (who I have voted for since he started in politics) refuses point blank to listen to me because I have pointed out to him how government policy flies in the face of green policy. Even on the Lisbon issue their stance was "we will let members of our party decide for themselves, but the rest of the country should vote YES" which to me is an incredible double standard.

CtrlSource wrote: »

OP, i fully agree with Scofflaw when he said he thinks you voted not for the Greens but for a band of Superheroes. There's no way the smaller party in a Coalition will ever be able to change the country overnight and overrule FF. My hope is still that they will make positive contributions though and i remain supportive of their staying in Government. i'm not sure if the original decision to agree a programme for government with FF was a good idea, but now they're there, i think they should stay, at least until the next debacle

Is there something wrong in voting for a party and (while it would be naieve to expect them to come through on all their policies) expecting them to at least not do a U-turn on what they said and do the exact opposite? I would hardly call someone who says one thing to get elected and says the same thing when elected a superhero - that is the standard we should expect from all our politicians, and to suggest that a politician who stands by what they believe in is a fantasy shows how badly corrupted Irish politics is, and how lethargic the electorate is.

We are seen as plebs and we are letting politicians treat us like such.

johnnyskeleton

Scofflaw wrote: »

So they should have gone into government simply to walk out? I think they could have shortcut that process by remaining on the opposition benches.

To be honest, yes they should have stayed on the opposition bench. At least they were some use in opposition, and if the government does have to destroy the country, there is something to be said for the greens refusing to put their name to it.

CtrlSource

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I have to put it to you that that is completely incorrect and you know it. Apart from the fact that when first elected and the issue of whether to join FF in government or not was put to the party at large and the TDs walked out with their fingers in their ears whistling a tune and pretending that they had the overwhelming support of the party, I find that my local green TD (who I have voted for since he started in politics) refuses point blank to listen to me because I have pointed out to him how government policy flies in the face of green policy. Even on the Lisbon issue their stance was "we will let members of our party decide for themselves, but the rest of the country should vote YES" which to me is an incredible double standard.

Well, i don't know it and i think you're wrong. It was a lot better an approach to allow the membership vote the way they wanted than to insist they support a Yes vote like the rest of the Yes parties did with their memberships.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Is there something wrong in voting for a party and (while it would be naieve to expect them to come through on all their policies) expecting them to at least not do a U-turn on what they said and do the exact opposite? I would hardly call someone who says one thing to get elected and says the same thing when elected a superhero - that is the standard we should expect from all our politicians, and to suggest that a politician who stands by what they believe in is a fantasy shows how badly corrupted Irish politics is, and how lethargic the electorate is.

Don't you not think you're being a tad hasty to abandon the party you claim to have voted for all your adult life?

We are in the second year of a 5 year government (if it lasts) and it's way too soon to judge their contribution. i have my gripes about certain decisions made and i'm disappointed with certain things, but i'm glad they didn't pull out over the Budget.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

To be honest, yes they should have stayed on the opposition bench.

If you didn't like the decision to go into Gov with FF fair enough. Lots of Greens feel the same way. But to say they're better off in opposition where they can effect no change is politically naive.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

At least they were some use in opposition, and if the government does have to destroy the country, there is something to be said for the greens refusing to put their name to it.

This, coupled with your earlier stated hope that the Greens get "destroyed" next elections shows that you're not committed to stick by them and are just an opportunist who'd prefer to keep your hands clean and shout from the opposition side "ah sure we told you so!".

Better to be inside the tent, imo

turgon

Scofflaw wrote: »

So they should have gone into government simply to walk out?

Obviously not, but the fact that they tip the balance in the Dail should be used to a greater extent.

Scofflaw

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

To be honest, yes they should have stayed on the opposition bench. At least they were some use in opposition, and if the government does have to destroy the country, there is something to be said for the greens refusing to put their name to it.

That's not really an argument that they shouldn't be in government because the Greens are bad in government - it's an argument that they shouldn't be in government because government is bad for the Greens.

They have no choice but to either support government decisions or walk out - it's called 'collective Cabinet responsibility', and it means that the Greens have to support official government policies, whether they like them or not.

If the Greens are destroyed by this, such is life. As long as there is support for Green policies, there will be a Green movement - and our environmental problems are getting worse, not better.

cordially,
Scofflaw

turgon

Scofflaw wrote: »

As long as there is support for Green policies, there will be a Green movement - and our environmental problems are getting worse, not better.

But as long as the Green Party only stands and brands itself as an environmentalist party then they will be never nothing more than a marginal party. Contrast that with the Green Party's in other places in Europe.

CtrlSource

turgon wrote: »

But as long as the Green Party only stands and brands itself as an environmentalist party then they will be never nothing more than a marginal party. Contrast that with the Green Party's in other places in Europe.

i think the last few years have demonstrated that the Greens in Ireland are a lot more than just an environmentalist party. There are different groupings within it and for sure, there is a core for whom environmental issues are by far the primary focus. But there are also others (including myself) who are supportive of environmental and quality of life issues, but who are also interested in seeing the party be involved in the full range of issues. For instance, Eamon Ryan is a very pragmatic politician and is far from any 'tree-hugging' stereotype that some people try to chuck at the Greens

turgon

CtrlSource wrote: »

i think the last few years have demonstrated that the Greens in Ireland are a lot more than just an environmentalist party. There are different groupings within it and for sure, there is a core for whom environmental issues are by far the primary focus. But there are also others (including myself) who are supportive of environmental and quality of life issues, but who are also interested in seeing the party be involved in the full range of issues. For instance, Eamon Ryan is a very pragmatic politician and is far from any 'tree-hugging' stereotype that some people try to chuck at the Greens

If this is the case why arent they a) branding themselves thus and b) acting like that in government?

CtrlSource

turgon wrote: »

If this is the case why arent they a) branding themselves thus and b) acting like that in government?

FYI

... So a) they are and b) they work within their Ministries, but have policies on a full range of issues