Spirituality and hallucinogens

18AD

Thaedydal wrote: »

Actually I have found that those who have had such experiences in a spiritual context loathe to talk about it due to them being so personal and knowing that unless a person has a frame of context from doing something like it themselves a proper converstaion about it is pointless and full of misunderstandings.

"The creative act is a letting down of the net of human imagination into the ocean of chaos on which we are suspended, and the attempt to bring out of it ideas.

It is the night sea journey, the lone fisherman on a tropical sea with his nets, and you let these nets down - sometimes, something tears through them that leaves them in shreds and you just row for shore, and put your head under your bed and pray.

At other times what slips through are the minutiae, the minnows of this ichthyological metaphor of idea chasing.
But, sometimes, you can actually bring home something that is food, food for the human community that we can sustain ourselves on and go forward."
— Terence McKenna

I couldn't find the exact quote I was thinking of, but that's close enough!

The aim is to bring back something useful from the experience. It's fair enough if one can't communicate the experience directly, but if it is to them a completely alien experience that is totally devoid of any knowledge that can be used, then I think nothing of use has been gained.

I have to run out the door. I'll be back.

Best.
AD

togster

18AD wrote: »

The aim is to bring back something useful from the experience. It's fair enough if one can't communicate the experience directly, but if it is to them a completely alien experience that is totally devoid of any knowledge that can be used, then I think nothing of use has been gained.

But something has been gained by the individual so how can nothing have been gained? If the person takes something positive from it and implements in his/her natural way of being then it surely will have a positive impact on others?

18AD

togster wrote: »

But something has been gained by the individual so how can nothing have been gained? If the person takes something positive from it and implements in his/her natural way of being then it surely will have a positive impact on others?

Yeah, I agree. IF that happens. Often it does not.

Best.
AD

wudangclan

try a website called www.erowid.org
which will give you plenty of info about all the drugs,(including the psychedelics),effects,dosage information,other users experiences etcetera

a very interesting book to read,though it focuses on phenylethylamines such as mdma (ecstasy),is a book entitled pikhal (phenylethylamines i have known and loved) by alexander shulgin

good luck,be safe.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Thaedydal wrote: »

/looks at thread title and looks at content wtf?

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds

cards

Had a brother in a psychiatric ward where there were plenty of people that had unhinged doors because of drug use. Stay well away imo and I have experimented plenty in the past myself.

Asiaprod

Thaedydal wrote: »

Anyway, this has come up before and it is one of the ways to open the ways but I do think there are better ways.

Thanks:)

OP, read this thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055429452&highlight=asiaprod

watty

IMO drugs are not a door to Spirituality, but a crutch and substitute.

Shulgin

watty wrote: »

IMO drugs are not a door to Spirituality, but a crutch and substitute.

I`m guessing you don`t have any experience with psychedelics/entheogens? "Drugs" is a very broad term too btw.

Nevyn

watty wrote: »

IMO drugs are not a door to Spirituality, but a crutch and substitute.

That depends on what you mean by drugs, many different substances which we ingest will alter our biochemistry and have clear effects. Some times you need crutches to learn how to walk to arm bands when you take to the sea but becoming dependent drugs is very different from using them in a spiritual context.

As the saying goes "one to alter, two to falter".

watty

Some expressos or Whiskey is pleasant.

Too many is Tachycardia or liver damage.

It also depends on what you mean by Spirituality. A couple of Brandies can make you feel warm, but it's not real heat. In fact you can die of hypothermia faster.

Arm bands maybe in the Swimming pool, but better learn to swim first in the pool and not use arm bands at sea.

I think this is one where neither side can convince the other, so having stated my opinion I'll leave it before we all drown in analogies. However I agree we are not independent of our environment in a search for Spirituality.

philologos

I'd see drugs as being a hindrance rather than a help to true spirituality. One can connect to God without resorting to drugs.

I agree with watty totally here.

If you click on Asiaprods link you'll find more of my opinion on this

JC 2K3

For non-supernatural, non-faith based reflection/introspection/understanding of the human mind, I think certain psychedelic drugs are an excellent resource. I can't speak for any other kind of "spirituality".

Psychedelics like LSD, Mescaline, Psilocybin etc. are a completely different thing to any other kind of drug and should not be thought of or spoken of as such. I don't really know what's meant when you say "substitute", watty, but it'd be pretty impossible for drugs like these could be a "crutch" given their effects and properties.

Nerin

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Psychedelics like LSD, Mescaline, Psilocybin etc. are a completely different thing to any other kind of drug and should not be thought of or spoken of as such.

wait, i think you left out a bit (or im reading it wrong)
are you giving them the thumbs up or down???

JC 2K3

Neutral. I'm just saying they're very unique, and comparisons to most other drugs are unwarranted.

Nerin

thread merged btw

watty

No-one compared Drugs to Drugs.

PurpleBee asked "Are drugs a useful spiritual path?"

For you, PurpleBee, does non-supernatural, non-faith based reflection/introspection/understanding of the human mind sound like a spiritual path or an exploration of the Id?

Or does it sound like a substitute Material experience to simulate a Mystical experience of Spiritual Origin?

Saccharine is a sweetener, but IMO has no food value or health value compared to Honey.

I'd be the first to agree that Psychotropic drugs are in a category of their own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive

But do they aid achievement of a Spiritual State? Or is the Spiritual Equivalent of Saccharine, the illusion of sweetness and maybe a bad after-taste? Is drug use self-indulgence or a Spiritual Exploration?

Each person may need to answer these questions for themselves.


(I think it's bad form to ask specific people in public, the Internet is not anonymous, if they have used drugs or not, even if it's experimenting for "spiritual reasons" with certain fungi).

JC 2K3

"spirituality" is hardly a well defined term.

I'd argue that the sweetness of saccharine is indeed sweetness and not an illusion. If to taste sweetness is the goal, then achieving this with saccharine as opposed to honey is no less valid IMO.

Re: comparing drugs to drugs, you did mention caffeine and alcohol, which have nothing to do with psychedelics, which is what the OP asked for.

watty

Did Purplebee ask for psychedelics?

I'll stick with the real and avoid the Artificial Sweetener. But you are welcome to try saccharine.


BTW
Read up on origins of use xocolātl, qahweh, "the froth of the liquid jade" and usquebaugh before you claim Chocolate, Coffee, Tea (caffeine) and Whiskey (alcohol) are entirely different. Too much goes beyond altering your Conciousness to destroying you. There are safer ways to enlightenment and Spiritual experiences.

JC 2K3

PurpleBee wrote: »

The psychedelic key turns a lock and unhinges doors. But if we must push on through are we going to get anywhere? I don't know and I don't know who I'm asking. Are drugs a useful spiritual path?

PurpleBee wrote: »

yeah well all of it really, from what I've read it is a dangerous path to tread alone with many opportunities to stray. But the way our society is structured I find it very difficult to find support for my venture in a psychedelic vehicle...? I don't even know how openly i can talk about drugs on here, its sad really.

.

stevenmu

JC 2K3 wrote: »

"spirituality" is hardly a well defined term.

watty wrote: »

For you, PurpleBee, does non-supernatural, non-faith based reflection/introspection/understanding of the human mind sound like a spiritual path or an exploration of the Id?

I think this is an important point to get to the bottom of. Spirituality means very different things to different people. PurpleBee, I would think you would need to decide what paths you want to follow, and while exact "goals" may not be a good idea, at least have your objectives or directions in mind. And then from there decide what may or may not be congruent with those.

Also, please keep in mind that many psychedelic drugs are very illegal and trying to acquire or use them will have all of the negative consequences that go along with that. And if you do decide to try some of the legal ones, please do lots of research, the sites listed previously will have good safety instructions etc.

raah!

I don't think that there is such a fine distinction here between "chemically induced experience" and "spiritual experience". Is it not possible to have a "chemically induced spiritual experience"?

Now if you think nothing of spirituality and other such experiences, if you would be inclined to believe people who have visions and things are only insane, then of course you would also be inclined to believe that using phsychdelics merely brings about a state of temporary insanity.

If however you think that people like Thomas Aquinas... etc. were having genuine experiences, then there is no reason to suppose that you cannot reach such visionary experience through the use of some chemical. As some earlier poster said, monks given psilocybin in a church though it was just as "real" as any other experience they've had.

People saying that they are a hindrance to genuine experience should take into account these monks and millions of other people who say they have had genuine spiritual experiences from the use of these substances. You can no more discredit their experiences than they can yours. Also take into account that fasting and then having visions can be explained chemically as well, as can singing , spinning, breathing deeply etc.

I think we can say that spirituality at least relates to some sort "spirit" which is a word with a much more solid definition.

JC 2K3

raah! wrote: »

I think we can say that spirituality at least relates to some sort "spirit" which is a word with a much more solid definition.

I disagree.

I think "spirituality" relates to any kind of profound experiences that more primitive people would have been believed to be caused by spirits (which I guess means something to do with the consciousnesses of dead people), but that do not necessarily have to be caused by spirits, or even require that said person believes in spirits.

I used to have trouble grasping the concept of "spirituality", and you can read why in my earlier posts on this thread, but I think now I at least think I understand what's meant by a spiritual experience, I think it's a feeling/state of mind in much the same way that, say, anger or happiness are feelings/states of mind.

I have experienced this feeling through drugs, staying up late, introspection/reflection, strong emotions and dreaming. I think they're positive and useful experiences, but don't believe anything supernatural is involved, and thus don't see the difference between "genuine" and "fake" experiences.

raah!

There's not necessarily a contradiction between what you've posted and what you've quoted.

Although I do disagree with your definition there, if you mean it to be only a "profound experience" similar to anger happiness etc. then there is no need to mark it apart from such experiences with a word like "spiritiuality".

If you do believe that it is in the same class as them, then it would be more appropriate to try and relate it to something already known about more solidly. If "spirituality" is jsut another form of happiness, then call it "extreme happiness" otherwise there will be confusion caused. Especially if you use the term in a materialistic sense, this is not an interpretation of the word that I would see as acceptable at all. Mainly because it has "spirit" in it, so the origins of the word, as you said there, are realated to things incorporeal.

It is of course possible, that the people who attribute the word spiritual to these experiences and those who don't use this word experience the same thing. But if you don't believe it's attributable to something related to "spirits" or thigns of that nature, then there's no need to use the word.

JC 2K3

Put it this way:

I don't believe in spirits or gods or anything supernatural, however, I don't think that people are making up the profound experiences which they claim to be "spiritual", I just think they're misguided in thinking that they're caused by spirits/gods.

I believe that if these people can have these experiences, then I can also have them. I think that profound experiences I experience are very similar to those which believers would call "spiritual experiences". Now I don't think spirits are involved in any of these experiences, but I feel I should use the term "spiritual" for simplicity and as not to mark the experiences as different.

raah!

Yes, that's perfectly reasonable. But terms such as "spiritual" or "spirituality" only become ambiguous or mysterious when used in a materialistic sense. And it doesn't seem to be in the "spirit" of modern atheistic or scientific practices to accept such words or definitions. I think if you want to look at it from a materialistic point of view, then there's alot to find out etc.

For example, if we used the term "inspiration from the gods" to describe having an idea, we would have a harder time convincing people ideas i.e "inspiration from the gods" did not come from the gods, if we used this term.

The experience itself is very difficult to explain or understand, but the word "spirituality" I think is actually very straightforward, if used correctly.

JC 2K3

watty wrote: »

BTW
Read up on origins of use xocolātl, qahweh, "the froth of the liquid jade" and usquebaugh before you claim Chocolate, Coffee, Tea (caffeine) and Whiskey (alcohol) are entirely different.

They are entirely different to psychedelics.... Ancient civilisations' reverence for other substances doesn't change that....

watty wrote:

Too much goes beyond altering your Conciousness to destroying you. There are safer ways to enlightenment and Spiritual experiences.

Depends what you mean by "enlightenment" and "spiritual experiences", again, it's all very subjective. Have you done any psychedelics?

If you have, and thus you can assure me that the effects can indeed be replicated without drugs, I'd be interested in hearing about how.

I won't go into how safe the psychedelics mentioned in this thread are beyond saying that they're very non-toxic and indisputably non-addictive, although are not something to be taken on a whim and require careful consideration beforehand, as they could force you to face repressed/painful memories.

ChocolateSauce

Hmm, I'm slightly surprised this thread is still going! Anyway, I'd just like to correct something I said here:

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

For thousands of years, many cultures the world over have used drugs such as Salvia, Mescaline (Peyote cactus), mushrooms and others as a gateway to the spirit world, and some people have even hypothosised that religion began because of such use.

Turns out I was wrong. According the the book "Shroom" (the singularly most intelligent, articulate and well researched book I have ever read) by Andy Lecher, the assumptions I made above are totally unsupported by evidence- the cultures which we know used mushrooms for spiritual reasons could be counted on one hand, and the famous Mexican-region usage is truly exceptional.

studiorat

In Brazil there are a number of religious movements based on the use of ayahuasca, a tea drink high in levels of the drug DMT. Rituals are usually animistic, may be shamanistic and are sometimes mixed with Christian imagery. Four different sects in total exist.

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations....

... Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid or reptilian in nature, in highly advanced technological environments where the subjects were 'carried', 'probed', 'tested', 'manipulated', 'dismembered', 'taught', 'loved' and even 'raped' by these 'beings'.

Many of his subjects reported quasi-religious sensations of bliss, ineffability, timelessness, and reconciliation of opposites; a certainty that consciousness continues after death of the body; and contact with "a supremely powerful, wise, and loving presence." Others underwent classic near-death experiences, feeling themselves leaving their bodies and moving through a tunnel toward a radiant light.

Volunteers also reported visions that did not fit neatly into Strassman's scientific or spiritual worldview, however. Forty-seven percent encountered otherworldly beings, variously described as clowns, elves, robots, insects, E.T.-style humanoids, or "entities" that defied description. These bizarre beings were not always friendly. One of Strassman's subjects claimed to have been eaten alive by insectoid creatures. In part out of concern about this negative experience, Strassman discontinued his research.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/the_god_experiments

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Culture

I'd have to say that I believe all feelings of spirituality or more importantly what I believe people are discussing here, that is "Transendence" is simply the mind playing tricks. Whether via an imbibed drug or a drug created within our oun brains.