Animal soul?

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't see how anyone could mix them up they sound and taste so differntly.

You could say that again :rolleyes:

Matthew 25:31-46 :

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. "

Doolee

Maybe getting back to the point...

I dont know if any of you have read "Angels in my Hair" by Lorna Byrne, but I watched an interview with her on Ireland AM via utube and a person texted in to ask if her recently dead dog is in Heaven and Lorna replied No, your dog isnt in Heaven, animals dont have a soul. Maybe its easier to think of animals like nature and plants, they grow and live and breath and we care for them and then they die.

But getting back to the book, its the most beautiful, genuine book ive ever read and highly recommend it to anyone.:)

Thanks!

Nevyn

Gareth37 wrote: »

You could say that again :rolleyes:

Matthew 25:31-46 :

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. "

So only sheep and goats have souls and get into the christian heaven.
Odd that.

PDN

Nerin wrote: »

Very good documentary about an african tribe,can't remember it though. They hunt gazelle by tiring it out. They single one out and follow it for miles until its tired out. Usually just one man. They keep following it until it can't run anymore. They then perform a ritual for the peaceful release of its soul,and then bring it back to the village and use every part of it. Theres alot of respect there.

A lot of cruelty too. Kinder to just cut its throat and give it a quick exit.

Whispered

PDN wrote: »

A lot of cruelty too. Kinder to just cut its throat and give it a quick exit.

I would tend to agree, I hate the idea of it, but, while we can sit here and say it's cruel. It's natural. A man, a single man, outlasting an animal that is built for fleeing. The animal was born to flee, escape, run from predators. It will happen to every single one of them at some stage, whether the predator is man or another animal. I have seen documentaries where a buffalo got stuck in mud and the bastard hyenas started eating him, from the hind legs, alive. It was horrifying to watch.

I would still be more accepting of hunting (when done in certain ways) than I would of mass farming which i think is so much crueller.

(sorry for going OT)

Nevyn

I don't think it is OT, as the thread is about how we value animals and if they have value to us more then just for thier meat then it should be reflected in the way kill, slaughter and eat them.

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

So only sheep and goats have souls and get into the christian heaven.
Odd that.

Followers of God = Flock of Sheep that follow God in a bundle with blind faith. They have only 1 shepard so stay in a bunch, all doing the same thing and following the same thing.

Goats are wanderers. They don't know what to beleive in and scatter in every direction, some follow atheism doctrine, some other vice such as spiritualism, Budism, Paganism etc.

Whispered

Gareth37 wrote: »

Goats are wanderers. They don't know what to beleive in and scatter in every direction, some follow atheism doctrine, some other vice such as spiritualism, Budism, Paganism etc.

Nice to meet you.

Nevyn

Gareth37 wrote: »

Followers of God = Flock of Sheep that follow God in a bundle with blind faith. They have only 1 shepard so stay in a bunch, all doing the same thing and following the same thing.

Goats are wanderers. They don't know what to beleive in and scatter in every direction, some follow atheism doctrine, some other vice such as spiritualism, Budism, Paganism etc.

Now that IS off topic, Gareth37 this is about actual animals in a spiritual context and not as used as metaphors.
This will be your only warning to stay on topic.
IF you wish to start a thread about posters in this forum being metaphorical goats then you are welcome to.

Nerin

Doolee wrote: »

Maybe getting back to the point...

I dont know if any of you have read "Angels in my Hair" by Lorna Byrne, but I watched an interview with her on Ireland AM via utube and a person texted in to ask if her recently dead dog is in Heaven and Lorna replied No, your dog isnt in Heaven, animals dont have a soul. Maybe its easier to think of animals like nature and plants, they grow and live and breath and we care for them and then they die.

But getting back to the book, its the most beautiful, genuine book ive ever read and highly recommend it to anyone.:)

Thanks!

Some people believe plants have a soul or energy also.

Agreed pdn,the animal would most definetly suffer. I don't think anyone would think that being killed by a man whos chased you on foot for miles,then delivers the final blow with a crude wooden spear is painless.
I'm merely stating that they believe the animal has a soul,and perform a ceremony at the deathstroke for the animal spirit to go in peace.

Nevyn

Nerin wrote: »

Some people believe plants have a soul or energy also.

Agreed pdn,the animal would most definetly suffer. I don't think anyone would think that being killed by a man whos chased you on foot for miles,then delivers the final blow with a crude wooden spear is painless.
I'm merely stating that they believe the animal has a soul,and perform a ceremony at the deathstroke for the animal spirit to go in peace.

I think that the long chase is more traumatic as the animal is hounded to it's death, as for the honouring ceremony many cultures do that with the ritual slaughter of the animal.

Nerin

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think that the long chase is more traumatic as the animal is hounded to it's death, as for the honouring ceremony many cultures do that with the ritual slaughter of the animal.

I'd agree. Theres no doubt the tribe respects the creatures they hunt,but i don't think they know how traumatic it is.

Nerin

helena.ryan wrote: »

I would tend to agree, I hate the idea of it, but, while we can sit here and say it's cruel. It's natural. A man, a single man, outlasting an animal that is built for fleeing. The animal was born to flee, escape, run from predators. It will happen to every single one of them at some stage, whether the predator is man or another animal. I have seen documentaries where a buffalo got stuck in mud and the bastard hyenas started eating him, from the hind legs, alive. It was horrifying to watch.

I would still be more accepting of hunting (when done in certain ways) than I would of mass farming which i think is so much crueller.

(sorry for going OT)

Theres another documentary about the lion pride of an animal sanctuary. It chronicles a few decades. There was a plague and while lots of animals died,the lion population exploded. There was a beautiful and sad moment where an old bull buffalo defended its herd from about 10 lions. While the herd escapes,the buffalo fights off the lions for half a day before becoming exhausted,falling down,and being eaten alive. Nature can be extremely cruel at times too.

CodeMonkey

helena.ryan wrote: »

What do you think happens when your beloved pets die?

They just decompose and are food for worms and bacteria. Pretty much what I think happens to me and other humans when we die. I don't believe in fairy tales and souls.

Nevyn

CodeMonkey to you they may be fairy tales but others they are not so please be respectful of other's believes inline with the charter of this forum.

Whispered

Nerin wrote: »

Theres another documentary about the lion pride of an animal sanctuary. It chronicles a few decades. There was a plague and while lots of animals died,the lion population exploded. There was a beautiful and sad moment where an old bull buffalo defended its herd from about 10 lions. While the herd escapes,the buffalo fights off the lions for half a day before becoming exhausted,falling down,and being eaten alive. Nature can be extremely cruel at times too.

Yes I saw it. Some of those programmes can be so hard to watch. When I was younger I always cheered for the hunted animal Took me years to realise that if the hunted animal lives the hunter probably dies.

That was my point with the hyenas though, nature can be a bitch. But it's nature, I suppose you can say it's what is supposed to happen. The way that tribe hunted was closer to nature than what happens here. The only thing I can think of that would be comparable to it would be hunting for wild game here.

I know in a lot of cultures a prayer of thanks is given before a meal. When speaking to my RM about this, she said that she will offer a prayer of thanks to not only god, but to the animal as well.

Nerin

helena.ryan wrote: »

Yes I saw it. Some of those programmes can be so hard to watch. When I was younger I always cheered for the hunted animal Took me years to realise that if the hunted animal lives the hunter probably dies.

That was my point with the hyenas though, nature can be a bitch. But it's nature, I suppose you can say it's what is supposed to happen. The way that tribe hunted was closer to nature than what happens here. The only thing I can think of that would be comparable to it would be hunting for wild game here.

I know in a lot of cultures a prayer of thanks is given before a meal. When speaking to my RM about this, she said that she will offer a prayer of thanks to not only god, but to the animal as well.

This would be close to my beliefs,offerings at specific times,and "prayers" to the spirits and deities

Gareth37

Thaedydal wrote: »

Now that IS off topic, Gareth37 this is about actual animals in a spiritual context and not as used as metaphors.
This will be your only warning to stay on topic.
IF you wish to start a thread about posters in this forum being metaphorical goats then you are welcome to.

Dang.
Bye Bye

kiffer

I think... if souls exist then there is no reason why animals should not have them...
I would expect the souls of animals to be simpler than those of humans...
In the same way that animals minds are simpler than those of humans.

Do animals have minds/feelings/emotions?
Some people might say... no, animals are automatons, basically living machines.
This makes very little sense to me.
Does my cat worry about existential angst? No.
Does she make long term plans? No, not that I can detect.
Does she have a memory? Yes. even tiny lab mice have memory.
Does she make simple short term plans? Yes, I would say she does. Others might disagree often because they think language is needed to make plans.
Does she get annoyed if I poke her? Yes, she gets angry. Again some people might say that this anger is just a chemical response in her brain to a irritating stimulus... to which I ask you ... what is anger in a human?


The point of this waffle is that animals have minds/feelings/emotions, even if they are simpler than those of a human.
Some animals are simpler than others.

An ant has hardly any mind at all...
Dogs and cats have simple minds.
Chimps have minds closer to those of humans.
Presumably early hominids had simpler minds than we do... at what point do you start to claim that they didn't have a mind or a soul?


I would presume that should souls exist that animals would have souls of a complexity similar to that of their minds when compared to ours.

Ants having just a tiny spark of a soul, glinting briefly as part of the shining beacon that is the gestalt entity of the ant colony.
The souls of more complex creatures would be more complex.

What do you think? Of course why should the complexity or nature of a soul be tied to the complexity or nature of the mind of a creature?
Does a simple minded idiot human have a lesser or less complex soul than that of a smart-complex-quick thinking human?
Does a smart, well trained, sociable dog have a more complex soul than a random stray?

Does complexity equal better?
Does a more enlightened individual have a better/more complex soul than a less enlightened individual.
Is it really 05:20? Why am I not asleep?
Would an true AI have a soul... I would expect not but then again if souls exist then why shouldn't it have a soul, after all we are biological machines grown from a single cell... do we inherit our soul as a spark from our parents or do we create it ourselves by our consciousness, or do will pull it in from beyond?
If we create or claim it from beyond ourselves by virtue of consciousness then why should a true AI not do the same?

Of course all this is dependent on the existence/nature of souls in the first place.
which is probably beyond the scope of a now completely off topic post being made well past my bed time...
hum... stream of consciousness post has gotten out of hand... Sorry Thaedydal and other mods

Whispered

^^ wow, great post.

togster

I guess it depends on a persons definition of a soul. Words/labels can confuse the issue . All living things have a life force/being and are therefore in one way or another linked to the unmanifested world, whatever that may be. By asking if an animal has a soul, we lead onto the question, well what happens that soul after death. I don't know.

getz

Gareth37 wrote: »

No, animals don't have souls.

if animals dont have souls what about [;OLD SHEP] who was a dog

hiorta

If the Soul can be considered to be the Divine animating spark behind and within all life, the seat of consciousness, the eternal part of us, then it must be generally a fundamental part of all living creatures.

I'm not so sure we could determine the 'qualities and status' of Soul relative to different species and to one another, as presumably there are different tasks and burdens self-imposed on different individuals.

Perhaps the Soul has to quietly try to express itself via the physical limitations of the form it is currently associated with, gently prompting the best spiritually enhancing thought or action in any given situation.

If so, Soul must be closely allied to consciousness and conscience, therefore capable of individuality, even while being severely limited.

philologos

In Jewish, and Christian thought (perhaps even Islamic thought also) God created humans with a certain likeness to God in Genesis 1:26-27. This likeness has been taught by the Jewish people, and by Christians to mean that God has created in us a spirit nature that allows us to communicate with Him through prayer amongst other things. If this is what makes humankind in the likeness of God compared to other creatures, it would mean that these creatures would not inherit a spirit nature. However, there is a lot of room on the topic, and it is by no means set in stone. I personally do not believe that animals have a spirit nature however.

The problem is when we cut off divine revelation in our search for God. How can we know of God without any form of source to know Him? That's what I find curious about other non-religious forms of spirituality, they seem very vague and wishy-washy. I'm not intending to criticise, I'm just curious and wanting to learn how does one get to know of the Divine outside of a religious ideology? I'd be truly interested to hear how we can know of the living God without religious texts and divine revelation.

hiorta

By seeking, finding and being true to the Highest that's within you?
Religions adopt a one-size-fits-all approach (wonder why they describe their adherents as flocks), while in reality each individual is uniquely different.

A person can live by the texts and teachings of another's thinking, or they can live in the realisation that 'they will reap as they have sown' and apply the Golden Rule - do as you would be done by.

20goto10

This thread is hilarious. 4 pages of people debating their delusions of grandeur. I woke up this morning thinking it was Friday....not a good start! So thanks for cheering up my day

Nerin

20goto10 wrote: »

This thread is hilarious. 4 pages of people debating their delusions of grandeur. I woke up this morning thinking it was Friday....not a good start! So thanks for cheering up my day

If you have nothing relevant to add to the subject, then please do not respond.
Consider this one and only warning.

philologos

hiorta wrote: »

By seeking, finding and being true to the Highest that's within you?
Religions adopt a one-size-fits-all approach (wonder why they describe their adherents as flocks), while in reality each individual is uniquely different.

A person can live by the texts and teachings of another's thinking, or they can live in the realisation that 'they will reap as they have sown' and apply the Golden Rule - do as you would be done by.

See how can we determine that God is one and the same for each and every person, if we are to conclude that the God that is in you, is the same God as a very different one in someone else? This surely presents a logical difficulty.

As for one size fits all approach, if there is one universal God, then it would be logical to suggest that one concept of God would fit all people, albeit in different ways.

As for seeking and finding God within, this reminds me of René Descartes, but without delving into philosophy, what if the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is within you and is seeking you to fill your understanding of Him through the Biblical text?

Nevyn

Jakkas can you please start a new thread rather then derailing this one please.

20goto10

Nerin wrote: »

If you have nothing relevant to add to the subject, then please do not respond.
Consider this one and only warning.

Do you not find it relevant that you're all just making this stuff up? It certainly is to me. What about black people, do they have souls? Because that sort of talk all stems from the same BS you are using to base your "facts" on.

To talk as if we are some kind of being other than biological beings is absurd and to talk about any other living thing as if it is "not allowed in the club" based on invisible magical stuff is laughable.

What we are is the top of food chain. The most intelligent species on the planet. But even that is debatable. If animals could talk I think you'd find they'd be able to put up a pretty convincing argument against that. There's nothing intelligent about sitting at a desk 9-5, polluting the planet, destroying the rainforests etc etc. There's very little humans have done that can be called intelligent other than our ability to understand things.

You all seem to be connecting intelligence with the soul. I'd argue that if there is any species out there that doesn't have a soul its humans.