Dunphy: Keane is not a good manager

Bubs101

premierstone wrote: »

Its not their nationality that is the issue here its where they manage and how their let manage, how can you seriously think a manager is better off if he has no say in transfers its beyond laughable tbh.

It kind of is. The succesion of brilliant italian managers who have proven themselves elsewhere shows that their managers are a cut above the english. For example, you would never see and irishman or an Englishman manage the Italian team. Why id it better off for the manager? For one, a manager is far more likely to become friends with players than the director so there is no bias if a director is in charge. Secondly, it's better for the manager. A manager who can make any bunch of players work in any formation is a better manager than a manager who just buys players to suit his 4-4-2. It's far better for a team to be flexible and ten years ago, no English team was flexible. They all played the exact same way

premierstone wrote: »

p.s how can you focus on team selection and tactics when you dont know what players your going to have from one transfer window to the next?

Directors of football and managers aren't meant to be enemies who are working to screw each other over at every turn. In Italy, most our friendly and a manager won't be brought in if he doesn't like the director of football

everdead.ie

pwd wrote: »

Not good at selecting and attracting players to sign it seems, but I'd say he's good at motivating, encouraging a team mentality.

You have to remember that sunderland has a lot of problems attracting good players to the club because it's been like a yo-yo recently but i wouldn't say he's secured any bargins in the players he's brought in.

bullpost

For me the issue with Keane is his ability to motivate as a manager.
As a player he punched way above his weight, so to speak, and was always leading from the front.
I believe he was motivated more by the fear of losing than the thrill of winning.
This is maybe not the best mindset for a manager, particularly one who has to motivate players who he would never have rated during his playing days.
I'd say there's many a day he just scratches the head and questions whether he'd be better off teaching trigger new tricks , rather than trying to push the lads on the training ground.

redout

Bubs101 wrote: »

Who was the last great English manager? Who was the last English manager to win the Champion's League? Who was the last English manager to do well in a national competition? There's a reason Italian managers are far better than English ones and it's because they only focus on team selection, management and tactics.

As for the stats you've thrown out, surely it's and indication that if you want a dominant club you should not give the manager control of the funds? After all, until recently Italian and Spanish leagues had much more in terms of quality and yet two teams managed to establish a hegemony there. I think Milan have even won it 19 times (and probably someone in Spain. I don't know much about Italian football) so the second most dominant team in italy is still more dominant that Liverpool.

Just to make sure, you do realise that you're not just talking about english teams here? The system has worked forever for continental teams. Remember the 7 sisters in Italy? When 7 teams all had outstanding teams based around foreign stars like Thuram, Ortega, Veron, Rui Costa, Batistuta, Mihilovic, Salas, Zamorano, Montero etc. While the English teams were still trying to sign home based players because the managers were slow to adapt the Italian teams flew by them and it took Wenger to bring England up to date by bringing in two players from Italian transfer networks, Viera and Henry. English football is on top now because of money and Man Utd's academy, not their outdated transfer system

I understand your point but dont agree with the whole football director thing. I acknowledged that it does sometimes work. I cannot ever see Fergie or Wenger having someone tell them what players that they can and cannot have. I am sure they would not stand for it and the fans wouldnt either. I hope it keeps its ugly head away from the premiership.

Bubs101

redout wrote: »

I understand your point but dont agree with the whole football director thing. I acknowledged that it does sometimes work. I cannot ever see Fergie or Wenger having someone tell them what players that they can and cannot have. I am sure they would not stand for it and the fans wouldnt either. I hope it keeps its ugly head away from the premiership.

That's fair enough, it's an ideology that is completely foreign for English fans and given the forays with it at Spurs I could understand the relectancy.Out of interest, seeing as you're from Madrid, id this based on your own reservations with the Spanish system? TBH, I'd be amazed if Wenger moved to Italy and wasn't allowed buy his own players given his track record, he's a special case. Redknapp as unlikely as it ever would be would probably get an input as well

Mr.Nice Guy

I don't know if this has been posted but here's Dunphy on the BBC saying Keane has lost the plot...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/7759767.stm

Anyone know what this show is from? I didn't know Motty did a show. :pac:

redout

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't know if this has been posted but here's Dunphy on the BBC saying Keane has lost the plot...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/7759767.stm

Anyone know what this show is from? I didn't know Motty did a show. :pac:

Some of what Dunphy mentioned was spot on about serving your time in the lower divisions and learning the ropes.

Fratton Fred

Its a big step managing in the premiership. A decent manager can get a good run going and get promoted from the championship, but it is another thing entirely to manage a premiership team.

I think Keane will be a good manager, but it is early days for him and he needs to learn.

one point though, can anyone explain who/how/why someone at RTE decided Eamon Dunphy would make a good football pundit?

deisedevil

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Its a big step managing in the premiership. A decent manager can get a good run going and get promoted from the championship, but it is another thing entirely to manage a premiership team.

I think Keane will be a good manager, but it is early days for him and he needs to learn.

one point though, can anyone explain who/how/why someone at RTE decided Eamon Dunphy would make a good football pundit?

He's entertaining and he's talked about because he's such an A-hole. You don't hear anybody talk about Houghton or Whelan as much as the'll talk about Dunphy. People watch RTE just to listen to the outbursts and crap spewing from him so that they can get angry and complain about him. He aint a great pundit, not even a good one I think but he draws in viewers.

keane2097

Bateman wrote: »

No, he was a not great player who turned out to be a not-great manager.

Are you on drugs?

keane2097

The fact that Keane has spent 80 million or whatever is a bit skewed imo.

If you consider the team he took over - bottom of the Championship, complete no hopers.

First of all, he had to bring in players who could do a job in the Championship and get them out of the trouble they were in. Cue spending on a lot of decent Chamionship standard players. Unfortunately this was all he could attract due to the fact that his new club were the worst club in the league and probably in the worst city as well.

In spite of this, he puts together a decent team and brings them charging from the bottom of the table to pretty much miraculously winning the division.

Next he has to take on the premiership. His decent Chamionship-level players aren't going to do the trick so essentially he has to try to build a squad from scratch again. Again, due to geography along with football reasons the best he can attract to the club is good championship-level players/decent-ish premiership players.

Keeps them up - another very good achievement.

Same thing more or less happens at the start of this season - he can now attract a somewhat better standard level of player to the club due to performances over the last two seasons.

It's going to continue like this for a while with Sunderland imo - gradually they'll be able to attract a better and better standard of player to the club until they're well established. Once that happens they'll be fine, they'll have a proper squad and will reduce the number of signings.

I think Keane's done well overall, and is capable of taking the team to the level I'm talking about.

imo

Mr Alan

your username leads me to believe you MAY not have approached this thread without bias.

deisedevil

Mr Alan wrote: »

your username leads me to believe you MAY not have approached this thread without bias.

That's a good one coming from you! Your post leads me to believe you MAY be a hypocrite.

Mr Alan

Only thing i said in this thread is that Gareth Southgate is a better manager than him. Which he undoubtadly is. Nothing wrong with that.

Pigman II

GuanYin wrote: »

Would anyone here have called Ferguson a good manager 2-3 years into his managerial career at Aberdeen?

Well I would have. He won the SPL with them in his 2nd season (their first title in 35 years). But hey that's just me.

Chucky the tree

keane2097 wrote: »

Next he has to take on the premiership. His decent Chamionship-level players aren't going to do the trick so essentially he has to try to build a squad from scratch again. Again, due to geography along with football reasons the best he can attract to the club is good championship-level players/decent-ish premiership players.

Hugely disagree with this. Even in the relegation zone in August they would of found it easier then the majority of Championship teams to attract players to their club.

GuanYin

Pigman II wrote: »

Well I would have. He won the SPL with them in his 2nd season (their first title in 35 years). But hey that's just me.

We all know how low your standards are

Pigman II

GuanYin wrote: »

We all know how low your standards are

This is true. For a second there I was even contemplating becoming a Sundireland supporter.

keane2097

Mr Alan wrote: »

your username leads me to believe you MAY not have approached this thread without bias.

No it's just my last name - I'm not related to him or anything.

Please don't let it stop you actually addressing what I've said, rather than cleverly avoiding it.;)

keane2097

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Hugely disagree with this. Even in the relegation zone in August they would of found it easier then the majority of Championship teams to attract players to their club.

Yeah, so he could attract good championship players and decent premiership players... What do you disagree with??

anonymous_joe

Let's all hold up a second here.

Roy Keane was a massively important player for United and for Ireland. As such, few of us are lacking bias of one way or another.

He took over a side in serious trouble, a team going down to League One. From that level, he dragged them up to win the Championship. Rather like Derby, you'd wonder if that was too soon?

However, unlike Derby, he spent a lot of money, and put together a team good enough to survive in the Premiership with next to no scouting team available, which is a fine achievement.

However, with massive increases in the amounts of money floating about hte Premiership, it's even harder to make progress, and for a team like Sunderland who had to put together an entire team, it's easy for all of us to accuse him of underachieving.

The big issue is the amount of money he spent. I would suggest that about 30 to 40 of that minimum was money that had to be spent to put together a side capable of surviving the Premiership. I would imagine that probably 25 million or so was spent not so much badly, as averagely.

In managerial terms he's very young, and has plenty to offer still. I think it's excessive to call him bad, but I think he was hailed as a messiah to early.

And where did that Dunphy piece come from? Radio show or what?

Dave!

Yeah one of the morning shows on RTÉ radio... can't remember which one tbh.

ziggy

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keane2097

ziggy wrote: »

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It's not the same bunch of players. Juan Veron was a great player two years before he joined United, but when he did he was a pile of **** - for whatever reason just not the same player. Harry Kewell another.

Same thing here, players that were ok two years ago are not necessarily still good now.

History is history you're right, the problem with it is it's in the past!

ziggy

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L'prof

ziggy wrote: »

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Romping the Championship isn't the same thing as doing well in the premiership though! There have been years when the team who've won the Championship, convincingly, have done the worst out of the 3 teams who came up!

keane2097

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's not really as much of a stretch considering you're talking about players who were only originally performing on a much lower level.

And it doesn't take the entire squad anyway, if three or four of the squad's most important players drop their levels of performance in a squad like that then you might as well forget it.

It's happened more than once that a team does very well in the championship one year, only to be piss poor the next. There would be nothing really crazy about the idea of a team that did well two years ago and then spent a year getting the spit kicked out of them in the premiership not being up to it anymore - after all it is what happened.

glenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

Gareth Southgate >>>>>>>>>>>>> Roy Keane.

tyvm:D:D

keane2097

In fairness Southgate has one of the best acadamies in England at his disposal and didn't exactly mastermind it himself.

Bubs101

He also doesn't waste ridiculous amounts of money on useless players although having said that he sold Cattermole for a pittance. Both of them need directors of football

Mr Alan

keane2097 wrote: »

In fairness Southgate has one of the best acadamies in England at his disposal and didn't exactly mastermind it himself.

in fairness Keane has had the guts of a 100million at his disposal!

wats your point!?

glenjamin

keane2097 wrote: »

In fairness Southgate has one of the best acadamies in England at his disposal and didn't exactly mastermind it himself.

What?? As much as I dislike Southgate making a comment like that is pretty stupid. Saying that the good young players being brought through have nothing to do with Southgate is idiotic. Do you think the likes of Wheater, Turnbull, and Taylor would be where they are now if Roy Keane was their manager? I think not. I think he'd be more enclined to waste money buying over rated players such as Collins and Ferdinand.

Back to topic; I am not judging Roy Keane as a manager yet but I will say that his biggest flaw is his his inabilities in the transfer market. To say hes not a good manager after just 2 and a half years in the job is out of order. Dunphy doesn't have a clue what hes on about!

keane2097

Bubs101 wrote: »

waste ridiculous amounts of money on useless players

Well balanced and reasoned argument there, would read again.:pac:

glenjamin

Bubs101 wrote: »

He also doesn't waste ridiculous amounts of money on useless players although having said that he sold Cattermole for a pittance. Both of them need directors of football

Cattermole wanted to leave because he didn't think he would get his game. £4.5M ain't bad though.

keane2097

glenjamin wrote: »

Do you think the likes of Wheater, Turnbull, and Taylor would be where they are now if Roy Keane was their manager? I think not.

This is a terrible attempt at an argument imo - you're just making things up now like.

Boggles

Keane is not a good manager because he is only in the job a couple of years and it is far too early to tell.

I think he has done more good things than bad things thou in the first 2 seasons he has had with the club. Taking them from bottom to first and taking them and keeping them in the prem league has to be applauded. He is still learning his trade and deserves time to do that, only fair really.

It would only be right to judge Keane this season at the end, because right now if you are in the top 10 and lose 2 your in the relegation zone, if you are in the relegation zone and win 2 your in the top 10.

Then again I would suggest if he were not "Roy Keane" ex Man United Captain this thread would not exist, or at the very least attact such attention.

keane2097

Mr Alan wrote: »

in fairness Keane has had the guts of a 100million at his disposal!

wats your point!?

The point is that transfer fees (the main issue with Keane's management abilities people seem to have) weren't as badly needed at Boro where they have had a steady supply of good young players coming through for several years. Sunderland haven't had any good youngsters coming through and so had to spend more on other people's players - that's all.

glenjamin

keane2097 wrote: »

This is a terrible attempt at an argument imo - you're just making things up now like.

Bullshit! And you making a comment on how Boro's YD has nothing to do with Southgate is better?? I bet your one of these idiots who went out and bought a Sunderland jersey as soon as Keane took over. Moron

L'prof

Lads, lets not forget, last season it took Sunderland 20 games to get to 17 points, at the moment they have 15 from 15, give the man a chance!

redout

At least he is doing better than Steve Staunton. straight to International management without a notion so the FAI money men could get a good deal. Keane will come good, he will manage United someday.

L'prof

Boggles wrote: »

Then again I would suggest if he were not "Roy Keane" ex Man United Captain this thread would not exist, or at the very least attact such attention.

I agree, I never liked him as an Arsenal fan, although I always admired him when he played for Ireland...Saipan excluded!

Now as a manager, I wish him all the best and hope he does well, after all he's an Irish manager in the Premier League! If he's ever good enough to manage United, I'm sure I'll loathe him again, but for now I genuinely hope he succeeds!

keane2097

glenjamin wrote: »

Bullshit! And you making a comment on how Boro's YD has nothing to do with Southgate is better?? I bet your one of these idiots who went out and bought a Sunderland jersey as soon as Keane took over. Moron

No, again you're just making things up to further your cause.

And if you can read the following again please:

keane2097 wrote:

In fairness Southgate has one of the best acadamies in England at his disposal and didn't exactly mastermind it himself.

Boro's academy was churning out good players well before Southgate was manager there, Keane would probably have benefited from having a similar quality academy. I said Southgate didn't mastermind the academy, not that he has nothing to do with players coming through it becoming first team players.

Can you please relax?

glenjamin

keane2097 wrote: »

Boro's academy was churning out good players well before Southgate was manager there, Keane would probably have benefited from having a similar quality academy. I said Southgate didn't mastermind the academy, not that he has nothing to do with players coming through it becoming first team players.

Can you please relax?

Well it seemed like you were making out that Southgate wan't responsibile at all for the reason why players like Wheater and Turnbull are at the level they are at now. It is down to GS for blooding them into the 1st team at the right time and giving them a chance. I haven;t a clue about Sunderland's academy and whether it is down to the lack of good prospects coming through or down to Keane not willing to give them a chance but instead of throwing money at the problem. Lets leave it at there.

keane2097

glenjamin wrote: »

Well it seemed like you were making out that Southgate wan't responsibile at all for the reason why players like Wheater and Turnbull are at the level they are at now.

Seemed from what? Posts I didn't make or posts you didn't read. Maybe you should try doing a couple of practise comprehensions before you call someone a moron. Bad form lad, bad form.

Gareth37

I think Keane should hire Mick McCarthy as an adviser and John Delaney as general manager . Steve Staunton could be PR/Media spokesman.

premierstone

keane2097 wrote: »

No, again you're just making things up to further your cause.

And if you can read the following again please:



Boro's academy was churning out good players well before Southgate was manager there, Keane would probably have benefited from having a similar quality academy. I said Southgate didn't mastermind the academy, not that he has nothing to do with players coming through it becoming first team players.

Can you please relax?

Who's makin stuff up now?? :rolleyes:

Tell you what fact is he's not a good manager yet - fact, he's not a bad manager yet - fact, but if Sunderland go down on the back of spending in excess of £80 on 42 different players then yes he can be labelled as a bad manager (with potential given the experience he will have gathered) and also your persumption that the only flaw people have noticed in Roy is he's dealings in the transfer market is plain wrong, if you have seen Sunderland play this season which as a diehard Royston defender im sure you have you will know that some of he's tactics and substitutions have been baffleing to say the least and some of he's ramblings in the media would lead me to believe anyway that the pressure is becoming a bit much for Roy.

keane2097

premierstone wrote: »

Who's makin stuff up now?? :rolleyes:

So you think there's a manager in the world anywhere that WOULDN'T benefit from having a good youth academy at his club?

Give me a break! If this is the best you can muster...:D

premierstone wrote: »

Tell you what fact is he's not a good manager yet - fact, he's not a bad manager yet - fact, but if Sunderland go down on the back of spending in excess of £80 on 42 different players then yes he can be labelled as a bad manager (with potential given the experience he will have gathered) and also your persumption that the only flaw people have noticed in Roy is he's dealings in the transfer market is plain wrong, if you have seen Sunderland play this season which as a diehard Royston defender im sure you have you will know that some of he's tactics and substitutions have been baffleing to say the least and some of he's ramblings in the media would lead me to believe anyway that the pressure is becoming a bit much for Roy.

The only part of this I have any issue with is the bit in bold. I don't think it's the only flaw people have noticed, but if you actually read back through the thread it's the main flaw people are picking out.

It's people on the thread I'm having the discussion with, not people somewhere else who have other issues with him!

I don't think he's a great manager, and would have major issues with his selection policy, substitutions etc.

And I'm not a diehard Roy Keane fan either, I just think the critiscism of his transfer activity is a bit OTT, that's all.

The rest of it grand, mistakes are being made all over the place, but in terms of the money he has spent I think a lot of it was unavoidable.

premierstone

keane2097 wrote: »

The rest of it grand, mistakes are being made all over the place, but in terms of the money he has spent I think a lot of it was unavoidable.

I dont agree i dont think that 42 palyers in and thirty odd, most of which were Keane signings, out is unavoidable it smacks of a badly run club where an inexperienced manager was given too much latitude ( no fault of he's own btw)

bigstar

players in or out or whatever, in fairness sunderland are 4 points of tenth which would be a decent finish for them. and no i dont like keane but hes kept them up last season and if he does it again its more than a lot of teams manage in two seasons.

Bubs101

keane2097 wrote: »

Well balanced and reasoned argument there, would read again.:pac:

What a pontless comment. It's quite clear that he has just thrown money away and I don't really feel the need to waste time analysing and listing all the money spent on people like Stokes and Miller