Where humans ever perfect?

Goduznt Xzst

PDN wrote: »

Yes, I believe there was a literal test. CS Lewis explored this in his Pelandra trilogy of science fiction novels (well worth reading). He speculated that, if the first couple had resisted the temptation, then it would have been curtailed. In other words, no more temptations.

So would we have continued to evolve if Adam and Eve had passed the test? Also surely Satan would of insisted on the same tests that Job and Jesus had to undergo and God would be obliged to entertain them.

kelly1 wrote: »

It's more subtle than that. I know it looks like pre-destination but I still say God doesn't influence our decisions. He just happens to know what choices we're going to make.

Does he know what choices Satan and his myriads of Demons will make? You are getting into a quagmire if you assume that. For then you would have to accept that God knew of all the evils (sorry I mean lesser goods :rolleyes:) Satan would commit yet created him anyway.

CDfm

gramlab wrote: »

Going back to the Adam and Eve line. How old were they supposed to be, were they instantly adult, did they have any ongoing guidance etc

Basically did they have enough life experience or nurturing to be able to avoid temptation. I know my little girl essentially knows right from wrong but children are children. Was it fair to tempt them (assuming God knew it would happen)

I dont think you are supposed to take the stories literaly rather figuratively.

The whole creation bit in Genesis represents God man sin and punishment. It is the concept of creation depicted as fact encapsulates a theme.

This theme follows thru in the creation stories. If you like it is the loss of innocence as a concept and the development of morality.Like covering nakedness ie they judged themselves..

The development of morality is discribed. The first murder Cain and Abel described.Tower of Babel - Sodom and Gomorroh - all biblical stories that have a destructive theme or self destruct theme. So the themes are important and not just as they apply to Theists but Atheists also.

There are essential truths in there that you dont have to be a Christian or Theist to appreciate.

Your little girl knows right from wrong but thats at taking a sweetie without permission is wrong.. But if you take a city or country or society -a more profound theme is that it can be led to destruction by its behavior and all that.The Nazis were destroyed essentially not much different to a biblical story.

gramlab

CDfm wrote: »

I dont think you are supposed to take the stories literaly rather figuratively.

But if it's figurative then where does original sin come from? Those that believe in original sin say it stems from this event.

Also, since we supposedly get a chance to repent, would they not have been entitled to that also?

CDfm

gramlab wrote: »

But if it's figurative then where does original sin come from? Those that believe in original sin say it stems from this event.

Also, since we supposedly get a chance to repent, would they not have been entitled to that also?

My take on it is this. Im Catholic BTW.

Adam and Eve are like composite characters. My take on it is that original sin is like development of morality. The apple and snake represent an event or events that gave rise to it.

In ancient writtings you get a lot of allegory and economy simply because of the nature of things and the requirement to get a simple message accross- and you didnt have the printing press.

In Adam and Eves case they were already in paradise - their actions caused their fall.

They get the same chance at redemption that everyone else does. It doesnt really matter what the sin was - but in Cain and Abel it was murder and so on.

Maybe they acquired human frailties etc and a dark side. So you have sin and punishment and redemption on judgement day.So maybe original sin is the capacity to do evil and know what you are doing is wrong.

PDN

ShooterSF wrote: »

Darn. It's cause I didnt get straight into arguing isnt it!

No, it's because we don't like people from Navan.

PDN

gramlab wrote: »

Going back to the Adam and Eve line. How old were they supposed to be, were they instantly adult, did they have any ongoing guidance etc

Basically did they have enough life experience or nurturing to be able to avoid temptation. I know my little girl essentially knows right from wrong but children are children. Was it fair to tempt them (assuming God knew it would happen)

Interesting one that. I was reading a book last night by Donald Miller called Searching for God Knows What. Miller is not a theologian - more of a liberal postmodern poet/essayist (he was chosen to pray the inaugural prayer at Barack Obama's nomination as Dem candidate). He, while taking an open position on evolution, speculates that it would have taken Adam about a hundred years to name all the species of animals as directed by God in Genesis. Miller muses on Adam as being a lonely Charles Darwin figure climbing mountains and diving into the sea to observe and categorise creatures. Then he was given Eve as a partner.

This would make Eve much younger, and much less experienced in life, than Adam. Eve was deceived, but Adam sinned with his eyes wide open. This is why the Bible speaks of sin as something that Adam, not Eve, brought into the world.

kelly1

gramlab wrote: »

Going back to the Adam and Eve line. How old were they supposed to be, were they instantly adult, did they have any ongoing guidance etc

Basically did they have enough life experience or nurturing to be able to avoid temptation. I know my little girl essentially knows right from wrong but children are children. Was it fair to tempt them (assuming God knew it would happen)

The difference between A&E and us is that they had the preternatural gifts. They were created a they were supposed to be but sinned and were punished by being deprived of these gifts.

"Adam and Eve originally received the preternatural gifts of immortality, impassibility, freedom from concupiscence, ignorance, and sin, and lordship over the earth. If Adam had not sinned, we all would have inherited these preternatural gifts, together with the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace. The souls in heaven will recover these gifts at the end of time."

Taken from this

gramlab wrote: »

But if it's figurative then where does original sin come from? Those that believe in original sin say it stems from this event.

Also, since we supposedly get a chance to repent, would they not have been entitled to that also?

The whole eating of the apple thing is most likely figurative. In any case our first parents sinned grieviously, enough to warrant losing the original gifts they had been endowed with.

Why original sin was propagated through the generations hasn't been revealed by God afaik. But for those who fight against tempations etc, there is great reward. Anyway I trust that God knows what He's doing.

EDIT: Some quick info here on original sin.

wolfsbane

PDN wrote: »

No, some Christians (Calvin & Wolfsbane) do indeed go on to assume predestination - but it is quite possible to believe in foreknowledge without believing in presdestination.

It would indeed. However, the real issue for Christians is, What does the Scripture say? Does the Bible teach mere foreknowledge or predestination?

Here's one of the texts that speak about it:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

The Greek word rendered predestined here is προορίζω (G4309 in Strong's Concordance).

Check out the Blue Letter article:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4309&t=KJV

Note the other times it is used in the NT. All have the idea of God pre-determining an outcome.

Indeed, the New Covenant under which the Church is established is all about God intervening to change sinners' wills, not about Him being frustrated by them:
Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

wolfsbane

gramlab wrote: »

Going back to the Adam and Eve line. How old were they supposed to be, were they instantly adult, did they have any ongoing guidance etc

Basically did they have enough life experience or nurturing to be able to avoid temptation. I know my little girl essentially knows right from wrong but children are children. Was it fair to tempt them (assuming God knew it would happen)

They were created mature, capable of producing children.

They were warned what not to do - eat of a specific tree - and were given the rest of the world to rule. They were not incompetents nor fools. They were free agents, and freely chose to disobey God when tempted.

Was God obliged to tell them that someone might lie to them to persuade them to disobey? Hardly, for they had enough in His specific command not to eat of the tree. Bottom line was Eve set aside God's command for the promises of Satan. Satan deceived her into thinking she knew better than God. Adam then chose to follow his wife rather than God.

kelly1

Re the quotes on pre-destination, it's not wise to take verses in isolation and ignore the context.

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It an absurd notion to suggest that some are pre-destined to be damned. God never created anyone with the intention of sending them to Hell.

wolfsbane

kelly1 wrote: »

Re the quotes on pre-destination, it's not wise to take verses in isolation and ignore the context.



It an absurd notion to suggest that some are pre-destined to be damned. God never created anyone with the intention of sending them to Hell.

I agree that a text must not be taken in isolation. But it just as bad to ignore the many texts because they teach something one is uncomfortable with.

There is no problem with God willing all men to be saved, yet choosing to save only some. They are guilty, God wills that they repent, but they will not repent because their natures are wicked. God chooses then to change the natures of some so that they will repent, and allows the rest to go their chosen ways.

That is how the Bible describes this great salvation. He chooses some wicked sinners for salvation, He calls and regenerates them by His Spirit, justifies them and eventually glorifies them.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd...
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

gramlab

wolfsbane wrote: »

They were created mature, capable of producing children.

They were warned what not to do - eat of a specific tree - and were given the rest of the world to rule. They were not incompetents nor fools. They were free agents, and freely chose to disobey God when tempted.

Was God obliged to tell them that someone might lie to them to persuade them to disobey? Hardly, for they had enough in His specific command not to eat of the tree. Bottom line was Eve set aside God's command for the promises of Satan. Satan deceived her into thinking she knew better than God. Adam then chose to follow his wife rather than God.

Sexually mature and mature are two completely separate things.

Whether you believe the story to be true or figurative, the notion that a supreme being who is capable of creating the universe and all the complexity that it entails, decides to punish two much, much lesser beings (and all those who follow) for being tempted by another being he created. Add to that the fact that he had foreknowledge of its actions, knew the outcome and still went ahead with the whole lot.............????

wolfsbane

gramlab wrote: »

Sexually mature and mature are two completely separate things.

Whether you believe the story to be true or figurative, the notion that a supreme being who is capable of creating the universe and all the complexity that it entails, decides to punish two much, much lesser beings (and all those who follow) for being tempted by another being he created. Add to that the fact that he had foreknowledge of its actions, knew the outcome and still went ahead with the whole lot.............????

They were mature in all respects.

They also were not punished for being tempted, but for yielding to the temptation, and that in direct violation of His express command.

God is God, free to run the universe according to His will. It is foolish for us to think we know better than Him. Maybe you should consider that you do not possess His wisdom, nor have access to all the factors that made this His will.