intervarsity MMA / BJJ

BobbyOLeary

Just saying valid student card is a bit vague though if you're going to run an intervarsity. An intervarsity, by its very nature, is a team event. Each university that wants to enter would need to field a team. If a particular college or uni doesn't have a specific club but has a group of interested individuals thats gravy but I think it'll have to be teams, not an individual event.

Jim, this is exactly what I'm saying about being able to field ridiculous teams if alumni are allowed

Nothingcompares

Again there are no rules as such afaik. If someone wants to host it and decides they want to allow alumni that's fine they can do that. You'll probably get a load of more entrants of a higher level but you'll have to accomodate them.

I think the best idea is just to restrict it to people who have a current student card. Simply means anyone who is currently a student in any college/uni partime/fulltime/evening.

The team event is an important aspect of the intervarsity but in an indivudal sport like wrestling it's not that important. I think a 5 versus 5 team event is a good idea. But you can also just add up points (DCU player wins <75 division gets 5 points for dcu etc.) team with the most points wins the intervarsity.

This is how it works in boxing intervarsity. Obviously rewards the college with the most entrants.

So in conclusion I don't agree with Bobby.

dasmoose

Yeah that's the other thing - if we're talking a team of 12, (each skill level, several weight classes) - I just can't see that happening, especially for smaller uni clubs which wouldn't have that many players at certain weight classes and/or skill levels. Just off the top of my head unless someone with previous experience has joined QUB BJJ in the last few months, we wouldn't be able to field anyone in heavyweight advanced, and I don't even know if our lone heavyweight would be interested in competing at all. I think Kev's hit the nail on the head with the boxing method.

Roper

Let alumni in I could compete for DCU!

Nothingcompares

and JK for DIT

and Andy Ryan for the school of hard knocks

BobbyOLeary

But you can also just add up points (DCU player wins <75 division gets 5 points for dcu etc.) team with the most points wins the intervarsity.

Don't know much about intervarsity boxing competitions but that sounds like a good plan. If the universities aren't represented its not an intervarsity, its a 3rd level sub wrestling comp. Not that thats a bad thing but we'd need to clarify exactly what we're doing.

Maybe an individual comp along with a team event at the end? I dunno I'm just spouting whatever comes into my head.

Nothingcompares

I don't see any difference between Intervarsity SW and 3rd level SW competition. It's just a matter of semantics. All Irish intervarsities (AFAIK) do not distinguish between Universities (NUIs, UCC, DU, DCU, UL, QUB, UUs) and colleges (DIT, GIT, TIT, CLIT).

I'll just repeat my idea, again I don't want to sound like I'm being bullish but I do think it's the best way:

Team competition

Each college/uni submits a team of 5 players of any weight class/experience.
They are put into pools with other colleges/unis.
Unis can have 1 or 2 teams and a female team (3 girls)
Players either face off in order of size or in order of roster
Who ever wins >2 matches progresses to next round.
which ever team wins the tournament is intervarsity champion
(I know Dave jone's tournies have specific weight classes but I don't think the colleges will have enough players to do this).

Individual Comp

After the team event (or before) individual comp as seen in national submission championships.

Again the idea is that we get college clubs mixing together, we get an annual tournie going with a bit of craic, beginners get a good go at competition (couple of fights), it's competitive but it's not about who wins really. It's something people can participate in to represent their college/uni.

Clive

Kickboxing intervarsities have always been an individual competition with points for medal placements as Kev has suggested - 5 points for gold, 3 for silver, 1 for bronze.

The advantage of this system is that pretty much every club will have someone who wins a category (yes, you too can be an intervarsity champion!) - they can use this for promotion, grant applications and sports awards.

Say if UCD MMA has 12 guys, UCD judo has 4, UCD ninjitsu has 2 and one UCD independent who pick the team if you go on the 5 man team basis?

Using the points system the overall result is then on a college/university basis rather than per club.

Clive

I'm also going to be controversial and say ditch the NSC rules.

Much and all as they rock, I think FILA rules would be much better given the level of people this is aimed at (mostly beginners with a few advanced mofos thrown in).

Some reasons:
1. Points. It's heartbreaking to see people doing all the right things and just not being able to get a finish, so they end up drawing a match. With points, newer people can use the basics they should be learning first - escapes and positional dominance to win, rather than attempting stupid hail mary subs.

2. People also open up more when they are down on points - this makes the matches more action packed.

3. Stalling can be punished more effectively.

4. FILA rules reward "the complete wrestler" - takedowns score well, there are points for other cool stuff so other people will be more inclined to enter, not just the usual BJJ brigade.

Just my thoughts, as usual I'll row in with whatever the folks running things want.

Nothingcompares

I think Fila rules are too complex. I'm almost certain nobody who started martial arts this year knows that fila even exists. but if clive and friends are happy to explain and ref based on fila rules ...

what does everyone think? things like this show we might need a committee formed to kinda make these decisions.

with regards to team picking. again its another example of how things like committees and respective members are important. it would be my view, that each college has a delegate responsible for entering their team and players in the tournament (usually captain of the respective club). as clive said there might be some rivalry between clubs so it really comes down to who the delegate enters. hopefully we'll get some nice political warfare out of this

RearNakedJim

Fila rules are better understood these days, and i agree points is a must for beginner comps.

From memory
5 pts High amp body to body throw
3 pts body to body throw
double leg etc no points and you must return oponent to mat safely.
1 pts passing guard to half guard
2 side control
3 mount
4 back

i think

And you must progress through the sequence to gain points ie if you get mount you get 3 points but if you go back to side you dont get additional 2 points

Clive

Jim has it as far as I remember.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the full FILA rules, just some sort of point system.

A repechage system would be vital too IMO.

Roper

Clive wrote: »

1. Points. It's heartbreaking to see people doing all the right things and just not being able to get a finish, so they end up drawing a match.

Heartbreaking eh?

Why no points for double legs?

MartyMcFly84

I like the idea of a team comp and the individual. If each collage/uni put in a team of their best 5 players to represent their club/university.

Then everyone can enter the individuals comp. ie people who didnt make the team (with different levels beginner,inter etc and or weight divisions)

We would then have a good intervarsity comp with collages pitting their best against each other, and the individual comp for everyone of all levels to enter.

Colm_OReilly

Can UCD enter a team old skool?

Sissy Boy
Clive
Jim
Dunk
Very Nice Pat

cactus jack

you would be best to check this with oisin.

OMCCABE

cactus jack wrote: »

you would be best to check this with oisin.

I guess thats my cue.:D

Firstly thanks to those that I've been in contact through email over the last few days. Good suggestions.

I've sat back and watched this thread for a few days to see what direction it is going. Lets see if I've got this right so far.

Format
People want a NO-GI instead of a MMA comp, at least as a starting point for the intervarsitys (I agree this can be progressed in future years if things go well)

Eligibility
I agree it should be open to current students only (sorry Roper) however I have no problem setting up a more open (individual) competition for alumni etc to run alongside. I do feel however that the current students events must be the centre piece.

Rules
I agree with a points system as draws are just a pain in the ass from a tournament perspective

Competition format (teams)
I like the camp based format here myself with a 5v5 6v6 team format were there are no weight classes (unless we can all supply a lot of entrants) but rather coaches choose who faces who. I think teams should be decided by inhouse competitions before the intervarsity. We already have some planned for our club in DCU for the start of next semester.

Competition format (individual)
This could be weight classed and run as a standard comp with alumni flying their colours to keep in tune with the spirit of the competition. 1 category for current students who arent' on the team and 1 category for alumni (this can include the Ropers JK's etc of this world). Decisions on amount of divisions etc are unrealistic until applications and number are known.

Venue
I will be talking to the powers that be in DCU on tuesday about several topics of discussion including hosting the intervarsitys here. Another possibility I plan on looking into is using the Irish/Dublin BJJ open venue in Team Rhino. I tried to ring Andy earlier but couldn't get through. Regardless, I will be talking to him on sunday at the Dublin open. I want to get as many options available as possible to avoid problems further down the road with big venue changes etc.




I think I covered everything here. If anybody has an issue with any of the above let me know (just don't jump the gun and start talking about things that are well down the road) and as far as the idea of forming a commitee consisting of all the chairpersons to finalise rules prizes etc...I like the concept. Each charman should email me at oisin.mccabe@gmail.com (if you haven't already).

Shamless plug http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=8116375072

And I'm spent *goes to ice fingers*

Oisin

Nothingcompares

OMCCABE wrote: »

Competition format (individual)
This could be weight classed and run as a standard comp with alumni flying their colours to keep in tune with the spirit of the competition. 1 category for current students who arent' on the team and 1 category for alumni (this can include the Ropers JK's etc of this world). Decisions on amount of divisions etc are unrealistic until applications and number are known.

Why do you want to keep team members out of this section? I say keep the three skill levels categories plus one for alumni. If entries are low, switch to 2 or 1 skill categories.

OMCCABE

Nothingcompares wrote: »

Why do you want to keep team members out of this section? I say keep the three skill levels categories plus one for alumni. If entries are low, switch to 2 or 1 skill categories.

I'm thinking that the team members (if the colleges compete in a round robin format) will already be having 4-5 bouts.

If the competition was in a knockout format of say

DCUvUCD--
--
--2nd round
--
TCDvUL --

etc..then I would say all the team members should have the option of competing in the individual too as if their team lost in the first round they would only have 1 fight.

However if we were working on a round robin format were every college competes against every college. (which I think works better and is in better spirit)
TCD UCD DCU etc
TCD
UCD
DCU
etc

The every team member would be gauranteed with a minimum of 4 matches if 5 teams entered 5 if 6 entered etc.

Again this structure is one that needs to be decided upon before categories etc.

I actually agree with having the 3 skill levels as a basic template and making changes if necessary later.

Oisin

Nothingcompares

OK. I'd be hoping for 8/10 fights if this intervars takes off.

OMCCABE

Was on the phone to Andy Ryan today and it looks like team Rhino is a possible venue. I will be talking to people in DCU on tuesday and will let you all know whats up there.

It occured to me that we may have more camps than I thought of. Considering that a single college could enter a team from judo, bjj, mma etc....nice

OMCCABE

Was talking to DCU today and they would be willing to host the intervarsity. Insurance is not an issue either from the look of things.

All we need is too give them a time period we'd like to rent the hall for and they will see whats free. I'll check mat availability also etc. Lets do this guys, there's no excuse for this not to happen next semester. DCU Judo expressed interest in possibly entering a team also.

Oisin

BobbyOLeary

To be honest you're probably better off just picking a date and running with it. Something in april might be the way to go, it'll be after the Galway MMA league and after the sub comp Colm usually runs in mid march.

We can hum and haw about a date but these things usually work better when someone just picks a date and books the hall. We can sort out the competition format afterwards.

OMCCABE

The Intervarsities will take place either on the weekend of April 18-19 or April 25-26. I am waiting for the final word on the availability of DCU's main hall and should know soon. If I am told it is not available I will get in contact with Team Rhino with regards to using their facility.

The next topic we need to decide upon is rules. (I think we are better off leaving competition layout, ie round robin v knockout until we have a better idea of entrant numbers).

Whatever the case we will find a venue so committee members, you now have a approx date to work towards and you can begin gauging your clubs interest if you haven't already.

I'm personally very busy at the moment but from the end of this month I will be able to poor my full efforts into getting thisevent sorted.

Oisin
www.bebo.com/DCUMMA

OMCCABE

I've re-read the thread and so far as I can see the easiest route looks to be this.

1/FILA rules (although I'd like to see points for doubles and singles etc..actually all takedowns as long as you follow your opponent to the mat)

2/We have both a weight classed individual comp with points awarded to colleges based on winners or 1st =x points 2nd=y points 3rd=z points
and
a team competition which can either be weightclassed or open weight

3/members of the team can compete in the individual competition also.


Thats my initial thoughts on it..if you want to see this change then lets hear your ideas.

Oisin
www.bebo.com/DCUMMA

dunkamania

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Can UCD enter a team old skool?

Sissy Boy
Clive
Jim
Dunk
Very Nice Pat

Just saw this now, best team ever.


Also, what the current thinking on the Alumni.
Seems like a good idea to have as much support for this event as possible

OMCCABE

Clive wrote: »

.

4. FILA rules reward "the complete wrestler" - takedowns score well, there are points for other cool stuff so other people will be more inclined to enter, not just the usual BJJ brigade.

This is real important for getting the Judo clubs on board..awarding the takedowns gives more of a level playing field in terms of points. As long as the thrower continues down to the mat. I don't want to see a load of hip tosses with people backing away and likewise I don't want to see butt scootin to counter it.

Would like to see this be as inclusive as possible and just all round great banter.

Oisin
www.bebo.com/DCUMMA

OMCCABE

dunkamania wrote: »

Just saw this now, best team ever.


Also, what the current thinking on the Alumni.
Seems like a good idea to have as much support for this event as possible

I'd love to see it happen..need to focus on the current students first though. If we can get this all sorted in terms of date..rules..and venue, then want to start working on a junior competition for those 16 year old 16 stone individuals I can't sneak into the main comp .

I'd also try to organise an alumni event or put it in the more capable hands of someone else which hopefully everyone including the JK's Ropers etc would enter based on the spirit of the event. (could even organise charitt involvement).

Oisin
www.bebo.com/DCUMMA

OMCCABE

Clive wrote: »

As someone who has no affiliation to any college club, and as a long time lover of college women, I'm happy to volunteer for refereeing duties, if needed.

However, as always, I reserve the right to heckle and eat doughnuts at the weigh-ins.

Still interested?..on this topic I could also try to get an impartial referee from Team Rhino when we get to that stage.

Oisin
www.bebo.com/DCUMMA

cactus jack

weigh-ins??? oh crap, hope there's an extra chunky division.