intervarsity MMA / BJJ

OMCCABE

Just got confirmation that the Main hall in DCU will not be available during te weekends of April. The Minor Hall is and although I remember it as bein small I have to pick up equipment fro DCU today anyway so I will have a look. Can members of the commitees please chime in and let me know which of the 2 dates they prefer, otherwise I'm just going to pick one and run with it and get to finalizin bookings on a venue.

Oisin
www.bebo.com/DCUMMA

cactus jack

hi mate,
the guy you need to talk to is "omccabe" he's been talking to the other interested clubs. it still hasn't been set in stone but ti think the main idea is to go with the national submission champsionship rules, i think!. been honest your best PMing oisin as i've had no say in the proposals for it. hope this helps somewhat.

OMCCABE

ITTMMA...the competition is going to be a submission grappling tournament. (Therefore Judo clubs, MMA clubs and BJJ clubs etc can all take part.)

I am going to run with saturday the 25th of April as a date for the event. I understand that most if not all of the committee members are in exams at the moment so hopefully they'll et their arses on here and help make this happen when they are done.

When I have news with regard to venue I will post it up here.

OMCCABE

Having talked to Andy Ryan who runs team Rhino out in Baldoyle he has been kind enough to agree to host the Intervarsities on the weekend of the 25/26th of April. We can work out the details in the coming weeks.

Now we have a time and venue

Next is the agenda is the rules..followed by organisiing referees etc. Honestly guys and girls theres only so much I can do on my own so others will have to weigh in on these topics.


Oisin
www.bebo.com/DCUMMA

cactus jack

why does it always have to come back to weight?
but joking aside good work oisin hopefully we'll start hearing back from the other uni's & colleges soon.

dasmoose

Nice one Oisin, great work.

In terms of rules i am really not happy with FILA rules, specifically the ridiculous re-start positions - how about a BJJ rules system but with extra points for takedowns (and penalties for trying to win a sub wrestling match on takedowns only to counter the aforementioned hip toss and run away approach) - this seems the best way to give judo/wrestling clubs an incentive to enter without losing the spirit of submission wrestling.

I'm happy enough to referee if you need me, although naturally this depends on whether people will be comfortable with club members reffing matches of their own team (I'd rather just compete but if you're short i'll help out)

agardiner22

Have you an oversize arse category for me!:D:D:D:D

OMCCABE

I'm sure something can be arranged as the comp draws near. If all comes to all you and cactus can battle it out to the death in your own special case category.:)...that or both of you can start cutting...sure its 3 months away..I'll sign both of you up to the lightweight category right now as added motivation.

Oisin
www.bebo.com/DCUMMA

Nothingcompares

fair play oisín hope it all goes well

cactus jack

sorry but oisin is unable to comment after i sat on him for the lightweight category sign up :P

OMCCABE

Will be meetin with Andy Ryan (owner of team ryano) tomorrow night after I finish work. I'll confirm dates etc and get his views on rules etc but I need the different clubs to chime in with regards to what they want. I'll start contacting and hounding them all by PM anyway.

Oisin

BobbyOLeary

If it starts standing up and finishes with a submission I'm happy with the rules setup.

In all seriousness though I've no idea of the FILA ruleset or the BJJ ones that Marks on about. What exactly is the difference? Or the problems you have Mark?

I would guess that this comp will be mostly beginners (at least from our club anyway), is the difference between FILA and BJJ rules that important for beginners?

In terms of rules I think you'd be best seeing what referees are available and what ruleset they can referee. I can't make the 25th which is a pity but I'll try and help you as much as I can Oisin.

-Bobby, UCDMMA

Nothingcompares

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

If it starts standing up and finishes with a submission I'm happy with the rules setup.

Excellent way to summarize the way the submission wrestling game should play!

OMCCABE

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

If it starts standing up and finishes with a submission I'm happy with the rules setup.

In all seriousness though I've no idea of the FILA ruleset or the BJJ ones that Marks on about. What exactly is the difference? Or the problems you have Mark?

I would guess that this comp will be mostly beginners (at least from our club anyway), is the difference between FILA and BJJ rules that important for beginners?

In terms of rules I think you'd be best seeing what referees are available and what ruleset they can referee. I can't make the 25th which is a pity but I'll try and help you as much as I can Oisin.

-Bobby, UCDMMA

Andy Ryan was saying he can most likely supply referrees if possible. I am meeting with Andy again on friday and I will get his opinion on exact rules given that team ryano has th experience of running both the Irish and Dublin Open. I will post the suggestions up here and if anyone has a problem they can voice it. Otherwise they will be taken to be accepted.

From what I gather we are likely to have the participation of UCD, DCU, Limerick if other colleges plan on sending competitors please let me know.

Thanks

Oisin

OMCCABE

Ok...met with Andy today.

We've come up with the following


-The competiton will take place on sunday the 26th of April. Weigh ins will start at 10am and the competition will start at 11.

RULES
-The intervarsity competition will take the form of an individual weightclassed knockout tournament followed by an open weight team event (5 per team) to headline the event.
-Each match takes the form of one 5 minute round and will follow a points system. There will be no footlocks of any kind and no neck crank submissions.




There will be an alumni event if the demand is there as well as other possibiliteis such as junior event.


If anyone has any questions shoot and if you or other members of your club plan on attending plese let me know as it will give me a better idea of numbers etc.

Lets make this a big success.


Oisin

dasmoose

that's grand oisin - just for reference the FILA rules i have a problem with are the fact that if you go outside the area, instead of waiting for the position to stabilise then resetting you in (as close as possible to) the exact same position in the centre, the FILA rules state that you get reset in a static position - for example if you had a RNC on your opponent and went out of the area as he tried to escape, you would be reset in (if memory serves) a kind of wrestling type attacking turtle position. If you go outside the area in mount you are reset in side control. Those are just the examples I can think of. I think there were also some wierd issues with points too but my main problem is the restarts.


Some questions I have that will come up at some point anyway:

What weightclasses specifically are you going to use?

What point system specifically? Standard BJJ or other?

Flying submissions?

No skill divisions correct?

dasmoose

Observe the insanity of FILA rules in a match Caoimhe recently had:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIOd5bVsADE

4:10-
Caoimhe tries a sweep, her opponent locks on a RNC, rolls to finish, basically has it finished - to the point where caoimhe has to tap - and for some inexplicable reason the referee restarts them in the centre, with Caoimhe now on her back and Sheila kneeling in a vaguely open guard position.

6:10 -

Time is called - fair enough. Then for some reason they attempt to restart in open guard (presumably as a tie break?) - as you can see the referee doesn't even know the proper rules.

Let's just stick to points for improving position and restarts in the same position. There was a lot of discussion on Bullshido about these FILA rules and the consensus was that they were brought in to try and make wrestlers more likely to enter. Well tough - I haven't tried to persuade the Irish Judo Association to let me pull guard

Rant over.

OMCCABE

dasmoose wrote: »

Observe the insanity of FILA rules in a match Caoimhe recently had:


Let's just stick to points for improving position and restarts in the same position. There was a lot of discussion on Bullshido about these FILA rules and the consensus was that they were brought in to try and make wrestlers more likely to enter. Well tough - I haven't tried to persuade the Irish Judo Association to let me pull guard

Rant over.

Thanks for that Dasmoose.

Theres actually two topics you brought up there. I was in the same situation with an armbar from guard locked in and I got restarted in a standin position. I would care a lot more if I had lost but it really bothered me at the time so we'll try and avoid that if possible.

The other thing that caught my attention was the judo reference. I really want to see Judo clubs enter this also and given that a throw followed by a dominant position can earn them plenty of points I don't see wht not. On top of this if they throw and step away repeatedly their opponent can just pull guard. It seems fair from what I can see..what you think?

Oisin

dasmoose

The other thing that caught my attention was the judo reference. I really want to see Judo clubs enter this also and given that a throw followed by a dominant position can earn them plenty of points I don't see wht not. On top of this if they throw and step away repeatedly their opponent can just pull guard. It seems fair from what I can see..what you think?

Well the point of my reference is that if I entered a Judo tournament they woudln't let me pull guard and make it a groundfight - and nor should they.

Similarly I don't think we should give a Judo player the option of making it a judo match. Don't get me wrong, I have a tonne of respect for Judo and I'd love to see Judo clubs enter as well - but i do NOT want to see a judo blackbelt fighting a guy who's been training MMA for 6 months, and spending five minutes putting him through the mat, then stepping away, then repeating... there's a very high risk of injury there and even ignoring that, its somewhat missing the point of sub wrestling, which is to try and submit your opponent.

It's already a problem at high level grappling tournaments where they don't have the option of stepping away due to passivity rules - I don't know about you but I've seen far too many matches where a great wrestler takes down a BJJ player then spends 9 minutes in guard refusing to move.

By all means encourage Judo clubs to enter, but don't do it by changing the nature of the sport.

BobbyOLeary

As I said earlier Oisinn, I'll try and give you any help you need with the competition but unfortunately with 26th April as the date you can count out a lot if not all of UCDMMA's entries.

Our teaching term finishes on 24th April and our exams start one week later. I told the guys the provisional date and the majority said they wouldn't do it so close to exams. A few might turn up, I'm not able to go due to a prior engagement, so our entries will be closer to 1 or 2 than 10.

Don't take this as me giving out about the date, I know its near impossible to schedule something to suit everyone. Good luck with the event nonetheless.

Mark, I agree with you re: changing the rules to entice Judo players. I understand that we want to increase total numbers but it shouldn't come with the price of changing the essence of the competition.

OMCCABE

dasmoose wrote: »

Some questions I have that will come up at some point anyway:

What weightclasses specifically are you going to use?

What point system specifically? Standard BJJ or other?

Flying submissions?

No skill divisions correct?

Only saw these now somehow..

No idea about weight classes yet...

Standard BJJ point system...4 for mount etc etc

Flying submissions....sure if your into that sort of thing, why not

No skill divisions as of yet but again may change. Do you think there should be?

-Oisin

OMCCABE

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

As I said earlier Oisinn, I'll try and give you any help you need with the competition but unfortunately with 26th April as the date you can count out a lot if not all of UCDMMA's entries.

.

Hey Bobby....dude the reason I want clubs [postin here is so I can do whats best for all. If you'd prefer the sunday before and nobody else objects then I can look into it. No problem. I just want to maximise the turnout. I'll make sure everythin goes smoothly on the day regardless.

-Oisin

cactus jack

hey oisin just thinking isn't the DCU tests failry close to the end of april too? may be an idea move it a week forward as most uni's will be looking at the same type of time frame. i think the dcu test are 1st/2nd week of april but i'm sure people will be consumed with study by then so regardless of test time may be an idea to step them a small bit forward?

BobbyOLeary

No worries dude, its my fault, I only looked at our calender recently enough and copped on about the date. I should have said something sooner. The sunday before would suit us much much better though.

Oh and on skill divisions, I think there has to be a section for people who just started this year. Its not fair for guys from our club who've got two months experience to be drawn against Dasmoose (a blue belt) for instance. A section for newbies and a section for the rest should work fine and will keep the divisions bigger.

cactus jack

oisin i think we need to move it forward a week as we really want as big a turnout as possible! also on the newbies front [beign one meself] maybe have a newbies division 6months/1year & for those that feel confident maybe they can enter a main division too? but on a main division front are we planning a white belt rules [as i know: no neck cranks & no leg locks] or are we looking at an open rules format? whick brings questions on the team based format....

OMCCABE

cactus jack wrote: »

hey oisin just thinking isn't the DCU tests failry close to the end of april too? may be an idea move it a week forward as most uni's will be looking at the same type of time frame. i think the dcu test are 1st/2nd week of april but i'm sure people will be consumed with study by then so regardless of test time may be an idea to step them a small bit forward?

Do you mean may?...its usually a twelve week semester..shoudl be early may..do me a favour and find out if possible

cactus jack

sry man meant may. i think we gotta be looking at mid to late april but away from the last week of april as most test will be commencing from then in all uni's. i know it's one thing trainign for it but at the same time we also want a good turn out for it!

cactus jack

just as a thought haven't had any flying moves tried on me but within a newbie division i think maybe they should be banned from a injury POV. don't know how more experienced people may view this but thinking from a newbies POV just thinking of trying to brace or block from an uneducated POV may cause injuries that we'll want to avoid [by we i mean the newbie community] also if we have a min division for more experienced people are we gonna have open rules? [newbies rules plus neck cranks & leg locks]

OMCCABE

Heres how things stand



Eligibility
Current student comp

Alumni comp

Rules
BJJ rules white belt rules (no straight leg locks)...I'll edit in exact points later

Competition format (teams)
Will be the main event at the end. Best from each college club face off in a KO tournament.

Competition format (individual)

2 categories..both weightclassed

1/Less than a years experience in a grappling art (including training outside of college club)

2/More than a years experience in grappling art

(Up to entrant to be honest)

Venue
Team Rhino

Date
Currently the 26th although I am going to try and change it to the sunday before (19th) if nobody else objects.


Thats basicaly what I'm thinking is required now.

-Oisin

cactus jack

is the whole comp gonna be under the idea of no neck cranks & no leg locks?

regardless of exp...