Christmas

fatmammycat

"It is the easy route to say it is a pagan festival.
It is the hard route to say you're an atheist and actually give up Christmas, which would make more sense as an atheist."
Are you being obtuse on purpose? Most if not all atheists don't celebrate the religious aspect of the Christmas holiday, eg mass, or the supposed birth of Jesus, but they can and do enjoy the secular aspect of the same holiday, gifts and family and so on. I don't see what is so difficult to understand.

fatmammycat

And one more thing, being an atheist is not about denouncing anything, it's about not buying into a load of hogwash to begin with and I believe I can decide for myself if and when I want to participate in a holiday.

midlandsmissus

stevencarrwork wrote: »

Guess what? Your imaginary friend can't stop atheists giving presents to their family at Christmas.

And by the way, I have now decided never to give money to Christian charities like Christian Aid.

They do a lot of good work, and I gave regularly to them as I knew the money would do good, but people like you have convinced me that it is simply wrong for me to do so.

I didn't even mind when Christian charities took money from non-believers and then wrote letters to the papers boasting about how much charity work they could do with the money.

But there has to be a line somewhere, and you have made me draw one.

Not one penny more to Christian charities until Christians stop being like you.

Steven,

I'm one Christian. If you want to generalise all Christians because of me, that's very harsh.
I took alot of attacking from atheists on here, I was told to 'get over it' and 'toughen up', and 'thats what these atheist boards are all about'. I was upset for about one day and then I got over it, and then thought I was coming back on here in the argumentative mode people wanted. The nature of these boards is to debate, and thats what I was trying to start. Obviously I was mistaken, and it's okay one way but not the other with some people. The last thing on earth I want is for you to stop giving money to some deserving people because of me, so please don't do that.I'll go back to my own board.

Dades

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Basically you denounce God and Jesus all the rest of the year...

You don't 'denounce' something you believe is a figment of someone else's imagination. It's not real to denounce.

What IS real is a holiday season that offers a wonderful opportunity for giving, receiving, mirth and companionship in general.

If people here believed in God/Jesus but were angry with him or something, that might a reason to not celebrate over the Christmas period. But of course that is not what an atheist is.

CDfm

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That's such a load of self serving c*ap!

Basically you denounce God and Jesus all the rest of the year, but when there is a bit of Christianity that is easy and benefits you, you will join in gladly.
Being an atheist is an all year thing, you cant just pick and choose when it is easiest for you.

MM thats a bit harsh.

All an atheists do is say they dont believe in God.

Christmas is a religous celebration and a secular holiday - its a time of sharing and happiness in families everywhere I hope.

Most atheists I know respect Christian traditions. I was at a Diwali lunch last year. I wasnt excluded.

AtomicHorror

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Steven,

I'm one Christian. If you want to generalise all Christians because of me, that's very harsh.
I took alot of attacking from atheists on here, I was told to 'get over it' and 'toughen up', and 'thats what these atheist boards are all about'. I was upset for about one day and then I got over it, and then thought I was coming back on here in the argumentative mode people wanted. The nature of these boards is to debate, and thats what I was trying to start. Obviously I was mistaken, and it's okay one way but not the other with some people. The last thing on earth I want is for you to stop giving money to some deserving people because of me, so please don't do that.I'll go back to my own board.

Our point was that sometimes you'll get crap on the internet, despite your best efforts. But if you go in guns blazing, you'll always get crap. You'll also offend people as you were once offended. Having a thicker skin is not the same thing as being rude, which is I'm afraid to say, how you are starting to sound. Steven's gone overboard there, I think, but I reckon he's just rather offended.

It really seems like your attitude towards atheism is very negative indeed. You really don't seem to like us as a group. But as a group, the only thing we have in common is that we reject the existence of the supernatural. Whether we love our families and want to be with them at a time that has broad cultural meaning, are materialistic and enjoy giving and receiving presents, just enjoy a party, or combinations of these, does not seem to enter into your considerations at all. We don't believe in Jesus, so we better go sit in the corner and wait this one out.

We are not "denouncing" anything (well the anti-theists probably are, but thats another matter), we just don't believe in it at all. And nor are we conveniently picking up the beliefs again on Christmas day just so we can have a party- we're making the holiday our own. A secular celebration of whatever the hell we want it to be. That is our right.

ChocolateSauce

Personally I hate christmas....people are so nice, and that's nice, but why can't they be that nice all year round? I'm not nicer or meaner to anyone just because it is a certain time of year.

I also fail to see the attraction of giving gifts because you are expected to. I give people gifts all year round (though anthroplogically speaking giving gifts is a way of asserting social dominance), if I feel like it. If they're your friends/loved ones, you shouldn't need a reason like a made-up and commercialised holiday to (exert dominion) give gifts. I really dislike being expected to, and I don't. My friends, who are like minded, feel the same way.

But....this Christmas I'm spending with my mother's family, who are all American and are all typical bible-bashing gun-toting chili-guzzling Chrysler-driving flag-waving republicans....it might get ugly. So I'm really not looking forward to Christmas.

Eh...sorry if I've sucked the merry out of the room. If I suck the Mary out of the room in a few weeks time I might get shot...

Dades

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

But....this Christmas I'm spending with my mother's family, who are all American and are all typical bible-bashing gun-toting chili-guzzling Chrysler-driving flag-waving republicans....it might get ugly. So I'm really not looking forward to Christmas.

Can we run a competition to get to choose what t-shirt you wear to dinner?

condra

midlandsmissus wrote:

Also palms your forehad. If thats what your calling a slap these days!!!

I was slapping my own forehead with my own palm out of frustration.

You're starting to dress up your anti-atheist sentiment in anything you can find.

Stercus Accidit

Dades wrote: »

Can we run a competition to get to choose what t-shirt you wear to dinner?

One with a bullet hole by the sounds of it...

stevencarrwork

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Steven,

I'm one Christian. If you want to generalise all Christians because of me, that's very harsh.
I took alot of attacking from atheists on here, I was told to 'get over it' and 'toughen up', and 'thats what these atheist boards are all about'. I was upset for about one day and then I got over it, and then thought I was coming back on here in the argumentative mode people wanted. The nature of these boards is to debate, and thats what I was trying to start. Obviously I was mistaken, and it's okay one way but not the other with some people. The last thing on earth I want is for you to stop giving money to some deserving people because of me, so please don't do that.I'll go back to my own board.

You made your point very well about how we atheists are hypocrites if we participate in Christian events.

So no more money to Christian charities from me.

stevencarrwork

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Steven's gone overboard there, I think, but I reckon he's just rather offended.

I was rather offended by a Christian charity which collected money from non-believers (and believers as well, of course) and then wrote a letter to the Times claiming their charity was Christians putting the Gospel into action

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5002586.ece

'We are proud of being Christian. Indeed, we are the official relief and development agency of 41 church denominations in the UK and Ireland, enabling our supporters here to put their faith into action. Our work is inspired and sustained by the gospel message of hope for the poor and the need to relate that to issues of poverty and injustice in the world today.'

They get not one penny more from me, as the writer knows perfectly well that quite a bit of that money came from people who were not Christian.

I have no objection to giving Christian charities money, but I object very much to them beating me over the head with my money.



Especially if other Christians then taunt me with not being a 'true atheist' if I have anything to do with Christianity.

I encourage all atheists to boycott all Christian charities until they acknowledge that they are happy to take atheist money to spend on their 'gospel message of hope' and put 'their faith in action'

Of course, if they really had faith , they would do what Jesus suggested and look in the mouth of a fish for their money.

But none of them have that much faith...

midlandsmissus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Our point was that sometimes you'll get crap on the internet, despite your best efforts. But if you go in guns blazing, you'll always get crap. You'll also offend people as you were once offended. Having a thicker skin is not the same thing as being rude, which is I'm afraid to say, how you are starting to sound. Steven's gone overboard there, I think, but I reckon he's just rather offended.

It really seems like your attitude towards atheism is very negative indeed. You really don't seem to like us as a group. But as a group, the only thing we have in common is that we reject the existence of the supernatural. Whether we love our families and want to be with them at a time that has broad cultural meaning, are materialistic and enjoy giving and receiving presents, just enjoy a party, or combinations of these, does not seem to enter into your considerations at all. We don't believe in Jesus, so we better go sit in the corner and wait this one out.

We are not "denouncing" anything (well the anti-theists probably are, but thats another matter), we just don't believe in it at all. And nor are we conveniently picking up the beliefs again on Christmas day just so we can have a party- we're making the holiday our own. A secular celebration of whatever the hell we want it to be. That is our right.

I dont dislike atheists at all, I like alot of them. not all of them of course, but alot of them. Point taken about families.

midlandsmissus

stevencarrwork wrote: »

I was rather offended by a Christian charity which collected money from non-believers (and believers as well, of course) and then wrote a letter to the Times claiming their charity was Christians putting the Gospel into action

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5002586.ece

'We are proud of being Christian. Indeed, we are the official relief and development agency of 41 church denominations in the UK and Ireland, enabling our supporters here to put their faith into action. Our work is inspired and sustained by the gospel message of hope for the poor and the need to relate that to issues of poverty and injustice in the world today.'

They get not one penny more from me, as the writer knows perfectly well that quite a bit of that money came from people who were not Christian.

I have no objection to giving Christian charities money, but I object very much to them beating me over the head with my money.



Especially if other Christians then taunt me with not being a 'true atheist' if I have anything to do with Christianity.

I encourage all atheists to boycott all Christian charities until they acknowledge that they are happy to take atheist money to spend on their 'gospel message of hope'

Steven, there are other charities out there who aren't christian. Why not give to to one where there is no basis on faith. And I certainly didnt mean to taunt you.

midlandsmissus

womoma wrote: »

I was slapping my own forehead with my own palm out of frustration.

You're starting to dress up your anti-atheist sentiment in anything you can find.

You said 'palms forehead' and I said 'I'll palm your forehead too if thats what you're calling a slap these days!'. That was a joke, which has quite spectacularly crashed and burned.

asdasd

View Post
But....this Christmas I'm spending with my mother's family, who are all American and are all typical bible-bashing gun-toting chili-guzzling Chrysler-driving flag-waving republicans....it might get ugly. So I'm really not looking forward to Christmas.

Why would it get ugly? If they are the type to not like atheists and mention it over christmas, thus making it ugly for you you should not go.

On the other hand if, over christmas, you like to tease, or piss on other people's beliefs on their holy day and thats why it would get ugly then you should not go either, nor in fact you should leave the house, except to go to the tofu atheist convention.

Otherwise do what the rest of us do and hold thy tongue.

stevencarrwork

I hope no Christians are fixing up trees and decorating them.

Jeremiah 10:1-16

1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

I knew Christians were secretly heathens at heart.

Deep down, they are drawn to their tree-decorating heathen roots :-)

Dades

midlandsmissus wrote: »

You said 'palms forehead' and I said 'I'll palm your forehead too if thats what you're calling a slap these days!'. That was a joke, which has quite spectacularly crashed and burned.

I got it!

I also think stevencarrworkwas must have been looking for an excuse to stop giving to Christian charities if you've sent him over the edge. Though I do think you're not trying hard enough to see the relationship between atheism as a simple belief and Christmas.

ChocolateSauce

Dades wrote: »

Can we run a competition to get to choose what t-shirt you wear to dinner?

Of course. I've got my ex-girl-friend's Marylin Manson one which says KILL GOD, KILL YOUR PARENTS and KILL YOURSELF, my "If you think I'm strange, wait until you see my friends", my "Only a bas-tard like me could live with a b1tch like her", and my "I don't have an attitude problem, you have a being an ass hole problem".

One with a bullet hole by the sounds of it...

No, that's after dinner.

Galvasean

I'm not sure about some of Midlandmissus' reasoning here. Am I a hypocrite if I don't march down to my place of work on Christmas day demanding they open up and let me work because I want no part in this Christian even they call Christmas?

midlandsmissus

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm not sure about some of Midlandmissus' reasoning here. Am I a hypocrite if I don't march down to my place of work on Christmas day demanding they open up and let me work because I want no part in this Christian even they call Christmas?

but that is beyond your control Galvasean so that's different! ah no honestly do whatever you like. I did fling the word hypocrite about a bit too freely there, I was just trying to fit in with the 'eat or be eaten' manner I came across here earlier, and 'be down' with the atheists:)

midlandsmissus

Dades wrote: »

I got it!

I also think stevencarrworkwas must have been looking for an excuse to stop giving to Christian charities if you've sent him over the edge. Though I do think you're not trying hard enough to see the relationship between atheism as a simple belief and Christmas.

To be honest I was really just trying to stir up a good old festive argument but its hard to keep things light on here, every thread on here and the Christianity board usually descends into a bitter argument. I have actually read and taken on people's points about Christmas, so thanks for them.

achtungbarry

I think that there has been a few "over serious" postings here....

For me I celebrate the non christian bits of christmas ie

the tree and decorations
the nice meal
the obligatory family row
presents
listen to Slade and Wizard
Santa for the younger members of the family
etc etc

I take part in these things for one very simple reason.......

It's fun !

No other reason than that. It's a nice way to end the year with family and friends, show some appreciation, watch kids get excited about Santa etc.

Personally I don't care that many people see christmas as a purely christian festival. For me, most of the christian aspect has been lost anyway. People who celebrate the christian aspect are entitled to do just that in the same way I am entitled to take part in the non christian aspects.

Some people spend too much time worrying about what other people are doing or believing/not believing.

Chill, relax and as long as you're not harming anybody............ enjoy life !

It's the only one we have ( I believe anyway )

Galvasean

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I was just trying to fit in with the 'eat or be eaten' manner I came across here earlier, and 'be down' with the atheists:)

Social Darwinism FTW*


*Please take note that I do not subscribe to, participate in, promote, recommend or even like the idea of Social Darwinism.

midlandsmissus

Galvasean wrote: »

Social Darwinism FTW*


*Please take note that I do not subscribe to, participate in, promote, recommend or even like the idea of Social Darwinism.

Is social darwinism survival of the fittest? That kind of thing? It's true I'm telling you, I used to be a such a nice girl before I came on here!:D Still this board is great it's flexing my argumentative and brain reasoning muscles, and thats why atheists and religious people are good for each other I say! Come on ,you'd be a bored lot if you didnt have a christian to argue with eh?

Galvasean

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Come on ,you'd be a bored lot if you didnt have a christian to argue with eh?

I wouldn't say bored

ChocolateSauce

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Is social darwinism survival of the fittest? That kind of thing? I

Social Darwinism is the universal constant under which secondary schools operate.

robindch

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I've got my ex-girl-friend's Marylin Manson one which says KILL GOD, KILL YOUR PARENTS and KILL YOURSELF

I've got one of these ones stuffed in a wardrobe somewhere:

- "Religion is the problem, not the answer", available from the UK here.

Or just get one of these and be done with it:

http://www.political-tshirts.com/anti-republican-state-map-t-shirt-main.html

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

To be honest I was really just trying to stir up a good old festive argument

Wait till we've had a few drinks taken first, then it's a festive argument.

ChocolateSauce

robindch wrote: »

I've got one of these ones stuffed in a wardrobe somewhere:

- "Religion is the problem, not the answer", available from the UK here.

Or just get one of these and be done with it:

http://www.political-tshirts.com/anti-republican-state-map-t-shirt-main.html

If there is any member of my family I'd get a present for, it's my tight millionaire uncle. I'd get him one of those Regan shirts where Regan is seen as the likeness of Che Guevara (black, red, looking inspired).