Worst British War Criminal In Irish History

hullaballoo

I find it impossible to pinpoint any one particular Briton as the 'worst war criminal'. I would say that in different phases of Ireland's historical development, there have been people who have done things that would be regarded as not being in Irish interests.

I think one of the first of these people was Dermot McMurrough for his role as architect in the Norman invasion led by Strongbow. But McMurrough wasn't British by birth, so I suppose he doesn't count.

Others would have been the various Monarchs who oversaw the enactment of Penal Laws (Laws in Ireland for the Suppression of Popery). Broadly, they were enacted from about 1672 by Charles II (Test Act of 1672 (25 Car. II. c. 2), 1678 (30 Car. II. st. 2)) and furthered in 1697 with the Banishment Act (Wm. III). However; it seems that they did most damage in the latter part of the 18th century. Anne enacted quite a lot of anti-Catholic (or pro-COI) legislation here too (2 Anne Ch VI; 8 Anne Ch III (1709).

That said, I think the real criminals here were the Lords Lieutenant, most notably Charles Spencer, 3rd Earl of Sunderland (who acted as advisor to James II and then defected when William III won - not exactly rare, but it's was a body-blow to the Irish Catholics).

Oh yeah, also, Cromwell was a bit of an asshat.

getz

i think that without doubt cromwell was the worst-but if you asked me why he did what he did in ireland i would say it was because of the catholic church and his hate of it -he was born in huntington ,at that time the church of rome priests was burning people at the stake ,see the ipswich martyrs- there reason for being protestant .-and the aylsham martyrs just for wanting to read the bible in english-this one was realy nasty 13 men burnt at the stake and there wives and children made to light the fires ,at that time only catholic priest were aloud to teach and read the bible in england, this was because they dident want anyone to question what they said -in some ways when atrocitys happen in your country it affects your way of thinking -[look at the irish today] i know this dosent forgive his murders ,but that was the way it was

abcdefghijk

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Three of my grandparents heighbours died in that bomb.

Glad that appeals to your ****ed up sense of humour.

cry me a river

Looks like another case of Freds fairytales all the same, busy with the book signing these days ?

ejmaztec

abcdefghijk wrote: »

cry me a river

Looks like another case of Freds fairytales all the same, busy with the book signing these days ?

Pitiful!

BossArky

abcdefghijk wrote: »

cry me a river

Looks like another case of Freds fairytales all the same, busy with the book signing these days ?

7 day ban for posting off topic following warning.

ejmaztec wrote: »

Pitiful!

7 day ban for posting off topic following warning.

cherrypicker555

T runner wrote: »

How did all the land get into the hands of a few Protestant English then if people were not first taken off it.

Do you just make up history to suit your prejudices?

Are you seriously claiming Cromwell expelled the native Irish population west of the Shannon :rolleyes:

Its yet another lie. Those expelled were a tiny minority who fought for the King, native Irish peasants did not own land and remained as tenants and labourers, the confiscated land was given to Cromwells troops many who stayed and illegally married Catholics, the rest sold.

Rebelheart

Well, Sir Humphrey Gilbert (1539-1583), Sir Richard Bingham (1528-1599), Walter Devereux, first earl of Essex (1541-1576) and Sir Francis Cosby (1510-1580) are unquestionably in the top ten.

Savages on a breathtaking scale.

c4cat

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I would argue that Cromwell cannot be a war criminal because the notion of war crimes didn't come to be until recently. Back then it was common practice throughout the world to raze towns and kill non-combatants.

So then that was not a crime then? what was it?

luckat

Cromwell was a religious maniac who hated all 'Papists'.

The Black-and-Tans were murderous.

For several hundred years Ireland was in a situation similar to Gaza and Tibet: a hostile foreign country claimed the land and sent in impoverished, disturbed and hate-filled settlers to grab land from its incumbents.

Gaelic peasants were not tenants of the Gaelic aristocracy; rather, the Gaelic system was that the land was held in common, and leaders were chosen by groups of families. When the English started making land grants, it cut across this system in the same way that making deals on lands cut across the customs of the American Indians.

Comparisons to the Holocaust are pointless; the Germans' carefully thought out and systematic murder of six million Jews and five million radicals, gays, gypsies, women who'd had abortions, mentally disabled people, etc was unprecedented and unmatched.

We all have enough grief to be going on with, without borrowing from others.

If you'd like an on-the-spot report of what 1798 was like, to give an example of one of the uprisings, read The Annals of Ballitore (available from Athy Public Library - get your local library to order it; despite being listed on Amazon, it's not stocked by that online store). That Rising was typical - the United Irishmen, a liberal society founded by eight northern Presbyterians and two Church of Ireland men, gradually, under pressure, became a revolutionary organisation.

Bad English people in Ireland: oh, they're all so lovely I don't know which to choose. Maxwell in 1916, Bowen-Colthurst ditto; Sirr in the 18th century; Ralegh and Spenser in the 16th century, Cromwell of course in the 17th. But the real tulip has to be Trevelyan in the Famine - he saw the mass starvation as a "mechanism for reducing surplus population".

But it's history. We have other worries now. Of course we should know our history and respect the long struggle that led to modern Ireland, but we should not hate each other because of it now. None of the above people are now alive; none of their descendants did any wrong to you and me.

Fred, I'm very sorry to hear about your grandparents.

Rebelheart

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

You have to understand, historically lies and half truths are/were used by the independence movement to garner political support for it, to this day they are taught as fact in the republic by the church/state. While the pogrom against southern protestants is ignored.

And this "pogrom" was where, Robin Bury?

lightsinthebay

Overthrows and executes a king, declares a republic (of sorts), massacres loyalists, re-distributes property from the hands of loyalists, and puts the boot into the Roman Catholic Church - what is there to complain about?

cherrypicker555

luckat wrote: »

Cromwell was a religious maniac who hated all 'Papists'.

The Black-and-Tans were murderous.

For several hundred years Ireland was in a situation similar to Gaza and Tibet: a hostile foreign country claimed the land and sent in impoverished, disturbed and hate-filled settlers to grab land from its incumbents.

Gaelic peasants were not tenants of the Gaelic aristocracy; rather, the Gaelic system was that the land was held in common, and leaders were chosen by groups of families. When the English started making land grants, it cut across this system in the same way that making deals on lands cut across the customs of the American Indians.

Comparisons to the Holocaust are pointless; the Germans' carefully thought out and systematic murder of six million Jews and five million radicals, gays, gypsies, women who'd had abortions, mentally disabled people, etc was unprecedented and unmatched.

We all have enough grief to be going on with, without borrowing from others.

If you'd like an on-the-spot report of what 1798 was like, to give an example of one of the uprisings, read The Annals of Ballitore (available from Athy Public Library - get your local library to order it; despite being listed on Amazon, it's not stocked by that online store). That Rising was typical - the United Irishmen, a liberal society founded by eight northern Presbyterians and two Church of Ireland men, gradually, under pressure, became a revolutionary organisation.

Bad English people in Ireland: oh, they're all so lovely I don't know which to choose. Maxwell in 1916, Bowen-Colthurst ditto; Sirr in the 18th century; Ralegh and Spenser in the 16th century, Cromwell of course in the 17th. But the real tulip has to be Trevelyan in the Famine - he saw the mass starvation as a "mechanism for reducing surplus population".

But it's history. We have other worries now. Of course we should know our history and respect the long struggle that led to modern Ireland, but we should not hate each other because of it now. None of the above people are now alive; none of their descendants did any wrong to you and me.

Fred, I'm very sorry to hear about your grandparents.

Your talking nonsense the Gaelic system was not some kind of hippy love fest republicans try to claim , it was a caste system with kings and druids at the top, slaves at the bottom, with elite ruling familes.

It certainly was not an equal system.

The rest of your pst is simpy errent hysteria.

How could Ireland be like Gaza, when it has always been an island conquered by outside tribes and assimilated.

In this way the Normans were no different then the Gaels.

cherrypicker555

Rebelheart wrote: »

And this "pogrom" was where, Robin Bury?

I am not Lt Robin Berry.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/vicious-attempts-by-catholics-to-drive-out-protestants-1649008.html

There you go.

lightsinthebay

Basically there should be statues up to the men of the New Model Army who died in the liberation of this country in 1649 - had it not been for the Restoration would we be plagued today by one lot of halfwits loyal to the tax scam merchants the German royal family of "Windsors" and another lot slaves to perverted priests.

Drogheda 1649 a great republican victory!

DublinDes

lightsinthebay wrote: »

Overthrows and executes a king, declares a republic (of sorts), massacres loyalists, re-distributes property from the hands of loyalists, and puts the boot into the Roman Catholic Church - what is there to complain about?

lightsinthebay wrote: »

Basically there should be statues up to the men of the New Model Army who died in the liberation of this country in 1649 - had it not been for the Restoration would we be plagued today by one lot of halfwits loyal to the tax scam merchants the German royal family of "Windsors" and another lot slaves to perverted priests.

Worst attempt at trolling I've ever seen. And unfortunately we are plagued today by halfwits loyal to the tax scam merchants.

lightsinthebay

DublinDes wrote: »

And unfortunately we are plagued today by halfwits loyal to the tax scam merchants.

Aye there was a restoration - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Restoration
....had there not been we could hardly have people enamored of their loyalty to tax dodging inbred Germans who talk to trees could we?

lightsinthebay

....and it is not trolling - unless you have a fondness for popery, monarchy and the Hiberno-Norman and Gaelic aristocracies why be down on the New Model Army? The English Revolution/War of the Three Kingdoms was a step forward for liberty and progress - though Cromwell himself was after a point more on the conservative side (see suppression of the Levellers).
Also from an Irish Heritage point of view - didn't a fair few the men of of the New Model Army end up living here - sure we could be their descendants!
Also the ideologies of the 1640s were the forerunners to some extent of those of the Glorious Revolution in 1688 - which was the tradition that informed the founders of the United Irishmen - it is the roots of republicanism in these islands.

Balmed Out

Well I for one think that popery, monarchy and the Hiberno-Norman and Gaelic aristocracies would each have been far more favourable then the ironsides. Its no exageration to say that Cromwell and his New Model Army attempted the ethnic cleansing of Munster, Leinster and Ulster. They were extremely anti catholic believing that catholics werent even christians and as such they felt they had a god given mandate to take what they wanted from us.

Manach

I would be in agreement with Balmed Out in his reponse to Troll boy above. The brutality of the Cronwellian forces in Ireland and elsewhere was an earlier manifestation of the milliennialist violence that cropped up latter revolutions such as the French and Russian, which promised liberty for society provided the undesireable elements of society were disposed of.

walrusgumble

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I would say worst Brit to ever set foot in Ireland, let alone act like a w*nker towards us is definately Cromwell! "Warts and all" Yes he wasnt a war criminal but damn it killing how many irish and justifying with his religion definately get him on my most hated list.

what about king billy and king james, with their bloody war spilling over here, thus furter dividing ireland on the religious line?

lightsinthebay

So y'all think absolute monarchy is a good thing then? ...and think, in the context of the C17th, a sect based on submission to a priestly caste preferably to religion based on private conscience and personal access to its holy script? Anyone ever vote, or participate in a protest, or lobby a politician?
If you respect basic democratic rights why not respect the men who helped put them there? Yeah so some people who happened to be domiciled on the island of Ireland were on the wrong side - the side of tyranny - and got their asses kicked - boo hoo!, my heart bleeds. So the divine right of kings still has its defenders?

Denerick

lightsinthebay wrote: »

....and it is not trolling - unless you have a fondness for popery, monarchy and the Hiberno-Norman and Gaelic aristocracies why be down on the New Model Army? The English Revolution/War of the Three Kingdoms was a step forward for liberty and progress - though Cromwell himself was after a point more on the conservative side (see suppression of the Levellers).
Also from an Irish Heritage point of view - didn't a fair few the men of of the New Model Army end up living here - sure we could be their descendants!
Also the ideologies of the 1640s were the forerunners to some extent of those of the Glorious Revolution in 1688 - which was the tradition that informed the founders of the United Irishmen - it is the roots of republicanism in these islands.

Ah, but it is trolling. Very incoherent and inarticulate trolling at that.

IIMII

Rebelheart wrote: »

Well, Sir Humphrey Gilbert (1539-1583), Sir Richard Bingham (1528-1599), Walter Devereux, first earl of Essex (1541-1576) and Sir Francis Cosby (1510-1580) are unquestionably in the top ten.

Savages on a breathtaking scale.

Yes. And Edmund Spencer might have beaten all comers if his (final) Irish solution had been adopted.

The Desmond war in Munster and Mountjoy's actions in Ulster towards the end of the 9 years war also left a devastating death toll.

I remember reading an account from an English soldier of raiding a house around Armagh or Tyrone somewhere, and saying that the starving young children of a dead mother were trying to cook her leg over a fire.

Scorched earth tactics were the norm for centuries - Munster was reduced to one fifth of it's population during the time of the Desmond rebellion

delta_bravo

Sir Francis Drake deserves a mention also. Massacring over 600 women and children on Rathlin Island I believe.

MrMojoRisin

AOMURCHU wrote: »

Was reading threads about cromwell and was wondering if he really was the worst visitor we ever had from fair britannia.

In the 1600s, Oliver Cromwell once addressed the English Parliament to lay out his foreign policy, and he began by asking the most basic political questions: "Who are our enemies, and why do they hate us?"
According to Cromwell, "there was an axis of evil abroad in the world", ad England’s enemies (whoever they were in reality!!) were "all the wicked men of the world, whether abroad or at home …"

That's funny coming from a barbarian like him. Talking about evil when he went out and caused it himself.

Cromwell seemed to have a dislike of the Spanish, whatever about the Irish. He once said in Parliament, "Truly your great enemy is the Spaniard … through that enmity that is in him against all that is of God that is in you."

Weirdly, Cromwell didn't seem to have a personal agenda with any nation's people (in his warped mind)- he seemed to get his ideas about good and bad from sources outside himself. I mean, the man thought that all enmity was embedded in Catholic religion, represented by the revolt against God by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. His distrust of Catholicism might explain his brutal wave of terror over the Irish (who were predominantly Catholic back then).

He also said, "I will put an enmity between thy seed and her seed".

The man was pretty deluded, by the sounds of things!

Driseog

All the ruling class and states people that presided over our last great famine. To think that only 150 years ago these people watched over a million people die while only making token gestures of charity. Isn't there some saying that famine happen because distribution fails not because there is a lack of food, murderers every last one of them.

Elliemental

Cromwell was in a league of his own, in terms of what we today would call war crimes. He's shamed us Brits eternally.
However, there are others to consider. Walter Raleigh, Thatcher, and of course Queen Victoria, whose government did bugger all while most of Ireland started to death.

EDIT: @ the poster who seems to think Cromwell acted in everybody's best interests by chopping old Charlie's head off.
Nonsense. Cromwell ruled England as King in all but title, and imposed his firebrand Puritanism on a previously moderate society.
Introduced some bloody stupid laws about mince pies while he was at it too.