Difference between cruelty and learning.

Whispered

Steve30x wrote: »

Ween a dog pees indoors catch it in the act , hold it by the scruff (Like its mother would have) and tap it on the nose (Do not hurt the dog) and put it outdoors for a few minutes. .

DO NOT HIT THE DOG FOR PEEING INDOORS. :mad: how many times does this need to be said?

If your dog goes to the toilet indoors, make sure that you bring the dog out more often. Your fault, not theirs.

Steve30x

bega wrote: »

It transpired that some idiot, not unlike the postings here, had suggested that she strike the dog's nose everytime it mis behaved.

I seriously hope you dont go to your clients calling them idiots. Also I didnt once say to hurt the dog. I said tap the dog so they can feel it but dont hurt them. I know now I was wrong though.

helena.ryan wrote: »

DO NOT HIT THE DOG FOR PEEING INDOORS. :mad: how many times does this need to be said?

If your dog goes to the toilet indoors, make sure that you bring the dog out more often. Your fault, not theirs.

Yes seargent Helena. Now if you even saw my post in another thread you will see I am changing my training methods. I am taking tips from posts in this forum for my dog training. Hope that makes you feel better seargent Helena.

Also its not the humans fault that they arent bringing the dog outdoors every ten minutes. You can bring the dog out every hour but it still wont stop the dog going to the toilet indoors every once in a while.

dmy1001

helena.ryan wrote: »

DO NOT HIT THE DOG FOR PEEING INDOORS. :mad: how many times does this need to be said?

If your dog goes to the toilet indoors, make sure that you bring the dog out more often. Your fault, not theirs.

Why are you shouting???

Whispered

Steve30x wrote: »

.....Now if you even saw my post in another thread you will see I am changing my training methods. I am taking tips from posts in this forum for my dog training.....
Also its not the humans fault that they arent bringing the dog outdoors every ten minutes. You can bring the dog out every hour but it still wont stop the dog going to the toilet indoors every once in a while.

Steve, I don't tend to follow you reading all of your posts in other threads to ensure I don't misquote you. I quoted you from this thread, on this thread. Only a few days bafore my quoted post, you gave advice telling someone to wipe their dogs face in their own dirt and "tap" them for going to the toilet on the floor. And yes, if your dog goes on the floor, it's because you didn't bring him out on time, read his signals, or realise that he needed to go. It's not his fault, they don't think to themselves "hoho this will annoy him, I think I'll go here." They go when they need to go.

I'm glad you're changing your training methods and I hope you begin to think twice about giving such "advice."

dmy1001 wrote: »

Why are you shouting???

Why are you asking?

Steve30x

helena.ryan wrote: »

Steve, I don't tend to follow you reading all of your posts in other threads to ensure I don't misquote you. I quoted you from this thread, on this thread. Only a few days bafore my quoted post, you gave advice telling someone to wipe their dogs face in their own dirt and "tap" them for going to the toilet on the floor. And yes, if your dog goes on the floor, it's because you didn't bring him out on time, read his signals, or realise that he needed to go. It's not his fault, they don't think to themselves "hoho this will annoy him, I think I'll go here." They go when they need to go.

I'm glad you're changing your training methods and I hope you begin to think twice about giving such "advice."


Why are you asking?

Oh dont worry I wont be giving any training advice on here any more because a good few people here are so uptight about their training methods. I am changing my training methods and not putting the dogs face in its toilet and not tap (Wow I dont hurt the dog) the dog when it does wrong. Also I didnt appreciate being called an idiot by the so called profesional (Yes I know it was aimed at me). I never realised some people were so over sensitive and uptight before. I will be careful in what advice I ask also because some people are rude and wont think twice to putting others down for some simple mistakes because aparently they never made mistakes themselves and they are perfect in every way.

Whispered

Steve30x wrote: »

Oh dont worry I wont be giving any training advice on here any more because a good few people here are so uptight about their training methods. I am changing my training methods and not putting the dogs face in its toilet and not tap (Wow I dont hurt the dog) the dog when it does wrong. Also I didnt appreciate being called an idiot by the so called profesional (Yes I know it was aimed at me). I never realised some people were so over sensitive and uptight before. I will be careful in what advice I ask also because some people are rude and wont think twice to putting others down for some simple mistakes because aparently they never made mistakes themselves and they are perfect in every way.

If you give advice that involves cruelty in some way then people will obviously react. As you would if you read a post which to you constitutes cruelty. You are on an animal lovers forum here, what you are calling uptight, is usually genuine concern and to be honest, a passive agressive post like that will do you no good, if you feel that people are being rude to you, report the post. The mods will deal with it quickly and you'll feel better.

I'm glad you're changing your methods based on other peoples advice, you'll see how quickly dogs respond to positive training. The tapping is not about not hurting the dog really, it's more about the physical threat if you know what I mean. I'm not denying that sometimes you may NEED to get physical with your dog, but it should without doubt be the exception, not the rule when it comes to control.

I wouldn't be so sure that the professional was aiming the idiot comment at you, in fairness the whole thread is a discussion on training methods.

A lot of the advice given is constructive and very good. Most people giving advice are giving it from a novice perspective, pet owner to pet owner and the fact that they HAVE made the mistakes before, and learned by trial and error says a lot of the advice given. But then, you can't call certain things a "mistake". for example a poster bullying his dog to make him behave, shouting, hitting, making himself "look big", dragging, forcing. He may see nothing wrong with that, he might say it was a mistake, but to most people it would be a case of someone scaring their dog into behaving. Would you call that a mistake or cruelty?

I hope you didn't take my :mad: face personally, it was aimed at the post, not you, I'm sure you can imagine the frustration of reading page after page of what not to do to your dog to then see a poster mistakingly post the very opposite advice than had been given all along?

Steve30x

helena.ryan wrote: »

a passive agressive post like that will do you no good, if you feel that people are being rude to you, report the post. The mods will deal with it quickly and you'll feel better.

I'm glad you're changing your methods based on other peoples advice, you'll see how quickly dogs respond to positive training. The tapping is not about not hurting the dog really, it's more about the physical threat if you know what I mean. I'm not denying that sometimes you may NEED to get physical with your dog, but it should without doubt be the exception, not the rule when it comes to control.

I wouldn't be so sure that the professional was aiming the idiot comment at you, in fairness the whole thread is a discussion on training methods.

a poster bullying his dog to make him behave, shouting, hitting, making himself "look big", dragging, forcing. He may see nothing wrong with that, he might say it was a mistake, but to most people it would be a case of someone scaring their dog into behaving. Would you call that a mistake or cruelty?

I hope you didn't take my :mad: face personally, it was aimed at the post, not you, I'm sure you can imagine the frustration of reading page after page of what not to do to your dog to then see a poster mistakingly post the very opposite advice than had been given all along?

Im sorry for that post but after so many posts aimed at me being rude I get mad and frustrated.

I have a thread asking advice on the type of puppy I should get and had a good few responses where a few people didnt hesitate to put me down and make me feel small. I put a list up as a general guide of what I would like in a puppy and not what I want a puppy to be exactly like just to help others give me some Idea of what breed of puppy would suit me.

I am learning new methods of potty training but that was the only time I used to tap the dog and put its face in it. My other training methods are to make the dog feel very happy that it done what I ask the dog to do and I know that works very quickly. If the dog didnt do what I asked it to do I would wait for the dog to relax and try again.

Also the part I have in Bold text in the quote I see as cruel and isnt training the dog. I can see the dog getting afraid and agressive after a while with that kind of training.

jen_23

kelee wrote: »

I was recently horrified to witness a relative punish his border collie for going to the toilet on the floor in the house by taking it outside, putting a tied loop of rope around it's neck, placing his hand into the loop and twisting to tighten it to place the dog into a submissive situation and then turning a cold hose pipe onto the dog at close range.
He said this is shown as an acceptable form of dicipline as shown on 'Dog Borstal'. Can this be true? He seems to think there is nothing wrong with his actions. He can expect a visit from an RSPCA inspector soon.

Wow! That's just so wrong in so many ways!! That poor dog needs to be rehomed! If he does that in front of someone I'd be terrified to know what the person does behind closed doors!

Steve30x wrote: »

Ween a dog pees indoors catch it in the act , hold it by the scruff (Like its mother would have) and tap it on the nose (Do not hurt the dog) and put it outdoors for a few minutes. The dog will get the message fairly quickly (Although it depends on the breed of dog)

Oh god! This reminds me of our yorkie and my mom training him years ago! She used to put his nose into it as well. Looking back I know now how terrible it was. To be honest he still had accidents every now and again after he was 'trained' as such. It could have been once or twice a year.. I reckon now it must have been post traumatic stress syndrome

I've recently gotton my own pup and armed with better knowledge - I took him out every hour and told him to be 'be quick' if he went GREAT! if he didn't we tried again in another hour.
He had several accidents during the training process. But hey he's a puppy! He didn't know any better. And if he had an accident I took it as my fault for not watching him and seeing the signs or not getting him outside quick enough. I never yelled at him when he went (though there were times I felt like it But I think I wanted to yell at myself more )
Now he's perfectly trained and when I say 'be quick' off he'l go outside and do his business. Then I get the puppy eyes looking up to me for his praise because he knows he's done a good job :cool:

Steve30x wrote: »

The one tool I find best for training the dog to walk on the lead is a Halti.

I was thinking of getting one of those. Well something similar a dogmatic because I'm finding it difficult to control Gunnar in public situations now. He's perfect on the lead when it's just us walking but around other people he pulls and he's getting so strong now! :eek:

Do you find it good for teaching heel and would you have much control when the dog becomes over-excited?

Steve30x

jen_23 wrote: »

I was thinking of getting one of those. Well something similar a dogmatic because I'm finding it difficult to control Gunnar in public situations now. He's perfect on the lead when it's just us walking but around other people he pulls and he's getting so strong now! :eek:

Do you find it good for teaching heel and would you have much control when the dog becomes over-excited?

The halti is great but theres a better head collar available which wont ride up onto your dogs eyes. (I hope im not braking any rules by doing this) I found it on ebay @ http://stores.shop.ebay.ie/Happy-Tailwaggers__W0QQ_sidZ862898211QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14?_pgn=1

Whispered

jen_23 wrote: »

Now he's perfectly trained and when I say 'be quick' off he'l go outside and do his business. Then I get the puppy eyes looking up to me for his praise because he knows he's done a good job :cool:

I wish I had of thought of saying something like "be quick" it would save me standing out my back garden, or on the side of a road (when travelling obviously) saying "go weewees"

jen_23

Thanks Steve! I might try that one all-together

Helena I'm laughing at your 'weewees' I was origninally saying puddles! but changed it within a few days to be quick!

Steve30x

jen_23 wrote: »

Thanks Steve! I might try that one all-together

Helena I'm laughing at your 'weewees' I was origninally saying puddles! but changed it within a few days to be quick!

You could also try an Infin8 head collar also. Any of those two are better than the halti because the Halti Tends to ride up to the dogs eyes when the dog pulls on the lead.

MrMicra

Dog's have to know their place. There is nothing that makes a dog more unhappy than thinking that they are the leader of the pack and to be honest if I had a dog that thought it was pack leader I'd cure it.

The best way to assert control over a dog is not however to hit the dog. Rather it is to hold the dog firmly by the throat.
Shoving a dog's face in its sh1t doesn't work. That is moronic.

Osteosam

leopardus wrote: »

I have never felt the need to resort to physically reprimanding my dog, and I would question your insistence that it's a valuable training tool. I would strongly advise that you read up on modern training techniques and theory ("The Culture Clash" is great, if you can read it and still hold your opinions on training I would be stunned).
I try to give my dog near constant feedback on his actions, praise verbally and with treats if he's done something good, warn him verbally if it looks like he's going to do something unacceptable. If my dog does something I'm unhappy about I let him know, verbally. I shout in a deep growling voice and he knows what he's doing isn't big and isn't clever and he'd bettter stop it, NOW. If he does something that really isn't acceptable, I go nuts, make a complete fool of myself, come across as someone with serious anger-management problems. But I don't hit, lunge, grab or in anyway physically threaten the dog. Then it's over in a second and when he sits/ behaves he's praised and it's a lesson learned.



Your dog doesn't understand english! You shouted at your dog (which is unpleasant) until it produced a behaviour that resulted in you stopping shouting; this is negative reinforcement and is a relative poor training technique. I often find it hilarious when (some) friends and family try and get my dog to sit or lie. They shout. As if they're trying to intimidate him into producing the behaviour they desire. It doesn't work and invariably I will end up asking, in a normal tone, the dog to sit and he always does. He does this because he thinks that good things will happen if he does, because I used possitive reinforcement.



My dog is an eight month begian shepherd and I'm reluctant to stop him biting me yet. One of the most important things that you teach your dog is bite inhibition, but before you teach the dog not to bite you have to give them as much feedback on jaw pressure as possible. i've always encouraged him to be as mouthy as he likes with me; chewing my hands if he wants. I also gave him bucket loads of feed back on whats acceptable and whats not; I became progressively less tolerant of the pressure he exerted. Letting him know when it 'hurt' by stoppping, yelping or 'growling'. He now has the most wonderfully soft mouth, even during boisterous play, tug of war, and I'm only now getting him to stop mouthing altogether. A dog which hasn't been able to develop this jaw sensitivity is a liability. It's jaws are like a mouse trap, it has only two settings. Don't bite and bite HARD. (Dr. Ian Dunbar has written some excellent articles and Chapters on this that are well worth checking out).

I'm too sleepy on the wrong side of the world to read all the way to the end of the thread, and i'm sure others have said much the same but hallelujah! The behavioural principles behind how dogs learn are pretty well established these days, and using force or coersion (bullying) to get a dog to obey might be a very quick short cut but god help you when you get one who finally says No Thanks. Dogs will always have more ability to hurt us and I sure as heck don't wanna be the one to be on the receiving end of a sharp tooth filled mouth that's finally had enough.

Simply reading about classical and operant conditioning is enough to see the principles behind "teaching" our dogs... we are their teachers - we're teaching them to live in our world, according to our rules, and surely we owe them the respect to treat them as valued members of that world.

If you take home nothing but the fact that all animals (us included...) repeat what is rewarding, and dismiss that which isn't you'll make a far better dog owner/trainer than by going about bullying your dog into submission.

Sorry.... i'll hop off my soap box now... this topic is admittedly one of my personal pet peeves...

Discodog

Morganna wrote: »

Ivy slayer who gave you the lessons in dog training.?I am in my 50s now and was training dogs from a cjhild we have worked dogs in obedience and tv work and exhibited dogs at shows.You give a dog a command and then you follow through show the dog what you want you dont give the command and if the dog doesnt do it you DONT GIVE THE COMMAND LOUDER .You put the dog in for example the sit.You never train through fear .Yes i believe that we should be Alpha with our dogs but i dont condone the way you are doing it .I would say get a book on training dogs by Barbara woodhouse .she was the greatest dog trainer ever .

Please listen to good advice like this when it is given. The problem is that dog training is now big money. People are conned into believing that the next new method is the best. Put a few dog trainers into a locked room & watch the fur fly. Barbara was brilliant because she kept it simple. The key to all of this is to spend time getting to know your dog & not picking bits out of training manuals. Talk to your dog.

The more you shout the less your dog will listen because there is no contrast. Dogs have astonishing perception. Studies have shown that they can read minute differences in facial expression better than we can. They can also detect the tiniest change in your voice. You can easily use a firmer voice without shouting.

You have to use the appropriate level of voice & escalate it only when necessary. In a serious situation I have personally found that a grasp of the neck & a shake is better than slapping - because it was how the dog was disciplined by it's mother. I have worked with some seriously aggressive dogs where you cannot show a second of weakness but you build up trust by being firm & most of all consistent. Needless to say that any shout or shake has to be followed by a cuddle. Most dogs value physical affection far more than we think.

Yes be the Alpha but do it in such a way that your dog loves you for it. By the way there are lots of reasons why a dog will lick you. It does not necessarily mean that they are being submissive. Please remember that dogs are individuals. There are no 100% training methods that can apply for every dog.

There have been a couple of mentions of EGAR in this thread. She is a friend & probably too busy to post here but I would ask that people do not make assumptions as to her views.

PS Bond you could qualify for a government grant as a rescue !

Osteosam

ODD-JOB wrote: »

When discipline is necessary :

Situation is as follows, an adult tries to take food from 2 of the lowest ranking pups in the pack. the pups are just offspring from the lowest ranking adult B.B.

Pups get priority for feed , then yearlings , then adults....... in that respective order

The Alpha's always on hand to keep the social system in order. This is how bad behaviour is dealt with by nature.
The offender will not suffer any further social stress from the pack there-after.
http://www.wildcast.net/2006/11/24/wild-dogs-discipline-in-the-ranks-video/

You know what.... intentionallly or not, you have hit the nail on the head when it comes to social structure of a pack. Access to and control of the rewarding things in life are what creates a true pack structure.

So, in the happy family home in this day and age, this means that simply controlling the dogs access to the things it wants will demonstrate your higher rank in the heirarchy.

That old cliche of not biting the hand that feeds you is only too true... The simple act of being in charge of when a dog gets it's food, expecting good manners for the delivery of such (whether it's the standard bowl of food or delivered as training treats) are far more powerful in establishing your rank than yelling, bullying, pushing or hitting.

If you can show your dog that you have access to all the good things he wants such as food, toys, the comfy sofa and fun in general you have a very solid base for having that dogs respect and avoiding dominance issues. No throat grabbing, alpha rolling or making yourself as big as possible needed.

As for if shouting during "training" is abusive think of it like this... if you went to work each day and were explained new tasks by the boss by being yelled down before even having them properly explained, would you consider that boss a good boss, or a bad potentially abusive boss?? Same goes for parenting, would they be a good parent or an abusive parent?? What kind of child or employee would you expect would result from such treatment? A happy one or a resentful, fearful one who will try to get their own back (or at least get out of there) at the first possible opportunity...
So yes, in my mind shouting to 'train' *is* abusive.

Another 10c worth from me...

Skadi

I think it really depends on the nature and breed of the dog as to what training methods work best. I have an Alaskan Malamute who you must raise your voice at when you want her to stop. Otherwises she just ignores you. Also we have noticed that if you give out to her, you must make up with her in a short period of time or else she will sulk and go and destroy something. It took a long while when she was a puppy to get her to recognize that I was in charge. Even now she will ignore me if i say no, and look at my husband to see what he says. And vice versa.

My dogs were never the best trained dogs. I think it's important that the dog can think for themselves and obey the basic commands ('Come', 'Drop', 'Give', 'Sit') when you really need them to.

Steve30x

After getting told off for some of my training methods on here I looked up some different types of training methods and put them together myself and toned some down. A method I use from Cesar Milan (Please dont think I use all his methods) is no touch , no talk and no eye contact. This does seem to help a bit.

This brings on to my Cavalier King Charles puppy which is 16 weeks old and I got her two months ago. I based my new and gentler methods on training her.

When Potty training her I brought her out every 90 minutes because she was 7 weeks old until she reached 12 weeks old. I then took her out every two and a half hours up until a week ago where she now lets me know when she wants to go. If she had an accident I would sternly say to her no but try not to intimidate her and put her outside for a few minutes. I never put her face in it or I never hit her for it. I just picked her up when I caught her in the act (which only happened 6 times) and put her out to the back garden for a maximum three minutes. While I was bringing her out to the garden I would repeat Toilet a few times. This actually works like a charm and she hardly had any accidents also when I now mention the word Toilet she sits up waiting for me to get the back door keys and walks out to the garden with me while I wait for her to finish her business. I thank everybody that tipped me on this method of potty training.

Another thing I have noticed is that when training the puppy you should always show the dog loads of affection and talk to the puppy like its a baby. I will promise the puppy will love this and will love you for doing so. Whether you think you look stupid doing this or not you should really think about talking to the puppy like its a baby and watch how the tail wags and the dog looks happy when you talk to it. The most important part of training a puppy is the Affection. If you give out to a puppy dont shout at the puppy , just say sternly either hey or no and after a minute or two Give affection to show that you are only trying to make the puppy a better dog and that you are not there to hurt the puppy.

lrushe

I like the NILF method, its more a continous way of life than a specific training method but I find it works really well:

Nothing
In
Life is
Free

In other words before your dogs gets anything ie dinner, cuddles, walks etc. it must obey a command.
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm