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Difference between cruelty and learning.
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I also hear wiping a dogs nose in it's own excrement is a good way to teach it not to go in the house as well as asserting you as Alpha. :rolleyes: And really, your above post shows exactly what you know of dog behaviour. Dogs lick, to try to please you. It's a fear thing unless the dog is being genuinely affectionate. Did you train your dog to sit by this method?I agree with the op. If it was cruelty:
A. THE DOG WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN LICKING HIM AFTER.
B. THE DOG WOULD BE COWERING OR TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM THE OP.
It is the quickist way to inform the dog that you are the alfa of the pack.
I'm not saying beat or hurt the dog. a tap is enough to get his/her attention and let it know who's boss.
Obviously the dog does not know what was meant, with all the shouting, looking scary and nose taps (which is hitting in my book) I'm suprised it ever copped what the OP was on about.1. Say the command, if he does not respond, say it louder.
2. Stand up straight and look as big as you can (if only this could apply for other things
) to try and scare the dog a little.
3. Get rough, I don't mean inflict pain, if he doesn't respond push him or drag him into his bed until he learns.
4. Still won't respond, gentle tap on the nose. Although be careful to distungish that the dog is being disobidient rather than he doesn't know what to do
No unfortunately anybody can go out and get a dog and a license.Oh I forgot they were needed before they gvae me the dog license!My dog could sit, heel, go outside, and into her bed at a command. People are acting like I kicked her when she wouldn't do something, no, I never hit her for that, as I have stated I hit her once when she bit me, it was bloody painful and she needed to learn that it was completely unacceptable!
I will only hit a dog IF they are endangering somebody. Cruelty cannot be listed solely as under hitting.
How many people leave their dogs in their houses unattended for all hours? How many people teach their dogs tricks like Paw, Play dead, roll over, which are completely unecessary. How many people groom their pets over and over that it's abuse to them!
She died of a brain tumour and I miss her so much. I was a good owner, maybe my methods weren't the best, but they stuck. I didn't wallop her every time she didn't do something. I may of been a tiny bit rough, but it did no harm to her. I brought her to the vets every 6 months, and he said that we were very close and she was in perfect health. Everyone who has me down as a monster, I can assure you I am not.I didn't need to attend classes, don't like my methods, fine, but it's certainly not cruel. If you think it was, report me. My dog could sit, heel, go outside, and into her bed at a command. People are acting like I kicked her when she wouldn't do something, no, I never hit her for that, as I have stated I hit her once when she bit me, it was bloody painful and she needed to learn that it was completely unacceptable!
I will only hit a dog IF they are endangering somebody. Cruelty cannot be listed solely as under hitting.
How many people leave their dogs in their houses unattended for all hours? How many people teach their dogs tricks like Paw, Play dead, roll over, which are completely unecessary. How many people groom their pets over and over that it's abuse to them!
She died of a brain tumour and I miss her so much. I was a good owner, maybe my methods weren't the best, but they stuck. I didn't wallop her every time she didn't do something. I may of been a tiny bit rough, but it did no harm to her. I brought her to the vets every 6 months, and he said that we were very close and she was in perfect health. Everyone who has me down as a monster, I can assure you I am not.
I think you'll find that most people who are posting here have now, or did have a dog who would carry out those commands without them having to bully them.My dog could sit, heel, go outside, and into her bed at a command. .
Yes maybe that was necessary, but your other methods are not. Biting is completly unacceptable.I never hit her for that, as I have stated I hit her once when she bit me, it was bloody painful and she needed to learn that it was completely unacceptable!
you're right, cruelty goes beyond bullying. It still does not make it the right way to go about it.How many people leave their dogs in their houses unattended for all hours? ..etc
For the record, I'm a fan of treating a dog as a dog. Humanising a dog too much I would imagine, confuses them. But dogs don't yell at each other. In fact a dog knows another dog is serious when the voice is lowered (low growl)
I'm sorry to hear that. We all have a pet in our past who meant a lot to us and it's very hard to loose them. I don't doubt you're a responsible owner, but why not try gentler methods with your next pet.She died of a brain tumour and I miss her so much. I was a good owner, maybe my methods weren't the best..... Everyone who has me down as a monster, I can assure you I am not.0 -
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I agree with Helena, from reading through the whole thread right now, its not that one incident - its the shouting and yelling to train that the OP mentioned in their methods post.helena.ryan wrote:I think people are more taking issue with your general training methods of shoving, yelling, pushing, shouting (your words not mine) than that one incident.
I've not had reason nor the mind to smack either of my two. I don't think I could do it. I want my dogs to trust me all of the time and my hands are their friends, not weapons. My hands give them lots of fab things like ear scratching, tummy rubs and produce treats magically when they're being really good
I've only used positive methods with them both (clicker training) and while they're not 100% obendient 100% of the time - thats not their fault, its mine for not having the time to religiously devote 15 mins 3 or 4 times a day each on just training (combine it with feeding, play, etc, thats a lot of hours when it adds up ) in among everything else.
I have made mistakes - on the introduction of the rottie (a new dog to the family) we started to use Amichien Bonding to try help .. we ended up with two depressed dogs that rarely wagged their tails. After 2 weeks of it, it was back to clicker training and marking the correct greetings between them, marking the good stuff and ignoring the bad stuff. It took a while to get them to trust us like they had done and was hard work, but worth it now to see the wagging tails and the happy carefree dogs.
But hitting? I see no place for it in training at all - there's no need when there are other ways to train a dog humanely using positive methods (not necessarily clicker training). There's many ways to train a dog to do a certain thing - not all methods work for every dog. But if someone has to resort to shouting and hitting to try teach a dog something, then the method they tried before isnt the most suitable and need to find another non-threatening positive way.0 -
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I agree with Helena, from reading through the whole thread right now, its not that one incident - its the shouting and yelling to train that the OP mentioned in their methods post.
I've not had reason nor the mind to smack either of my two. I don't think I could do it. I want my dogs to trust me all of the time and my hands are their friends, not weapons. My hands give them lots of fab things like ear scratching, tummy rubs and produce treats magically when they're being really good
I've only used positive methods with them both (clicker training) and while they're not 100% obendient 100% of the time - thats not their fault, its mine for not having the time to religiously devote 15 mins 3 or 4 times a day each on just training (combine it with feeding, play, etc, thats a lot of hours when it adds up ) in among everything else.
I have made mistakes - on the introduction of the rottie (a new dog to the family) we started to use Amichien Bonding to try help .. we ended up with two depressed dogs that rarely wagged their tails. After 2 weeks of it, it was back to clicker training and marking the correct greetings between them, marking the good stuff and ignoring the bad stuff. It took a while to get them to trust us like they had done and was hard work, but worth it now to see the wagging tails and the happy carefree dogs.
But hitting? I see no place for it in training at all - there's no need when there are other ways to train a dog humanely using positive methods (not necessarily clicker training). There's many ways to train a dog to do a certain thing - not all methods work for every dog. But if someone has to resort to shouting and hitting to try teach a dog something, then the method they tried before isnt the most suitable and need to find another non-threatening positive way.
I didn't hit my dog when training. I hit her because she bit me. And it did work.0 -
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I didn't hit my dog when training. I hit her because she bit me. And it did work.
Ivy, I can't say I blame you for that, it's almost an unconscious reaction to being bitten.
Anyway, I am sorry to hear about your dog that passed on and I hope you are ok?
I don't think you sound like a cruel person at all and it's very clear from your posts that you loved your doggie very much, however, I think what people are trying to say is that you CAN achieve the same effect from your dogster without having to shout or push it around a bit.
I have never had to hit my dog, she will sit and stay no problem, heel and recall we are still working on
As for getting into her bed? Well, we have a press in the kitchen that has a child lock on it so when it's opened it clicks different to the presses that don't have the childlock. This is where we keep the dentastix. Magic knows she only gets a dentastix at night time just so now whenever she hears the press opening she heads straight for the bed without even being told, she's a cute hoor so she is.
Anyway, If you do get yourself another doggie I would urge you maybe to just try these ways of training rather than the others and see how it goes, you might be VERY surprised!
Oh and Mairt - On the other thread about a Pok attacking your bullies? I know EXACTLY what you mean. When the Westie attacked my GSD yer man looked at me as much as to say Jesus, what are you doing with that shark on a lead and his dog going mentalist to get at mine's throat! Some people! 0 -
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I have three and there are times when I've had to raise my voice (read: let out an almighty roar) or stamp my feet to get their undivided attention. I've even had to "wade in" at some times and push/shove them around ...but the only time when I would ever hit a dog (and I haven't had to do so yet) is in self defence.
You try stopping 9 dogs who are fighting to the death with a roar! Amazingly when my rottie & my (now dead) lab trying to be top dog with the other at the time 8 dogs all varying in size from lab x Newfoundland, setter x ridge back & smaller terriers all attacking the rottie - that has always needed way more than a tap on the nose - I could of course not smacked & just waited till half were dead - in the situation which is cruel - me smacking & physically trying to separate the dogs or to sit there & wait till a victor emerged - hold on that would not work cause I don't like dog fights! If I did like dog fighting I could have made a ton of money - Max & Cassie had had many fights - 7 serious ones before this mighty fight. Very sad I feel very guilty but I could patch Max up knowing that the fights would not end
The last fight took over an hour to stop - & caused Cassie the rottie to have surgery & Max the lab sadly had to be PTS as a result of the injuries he sustained.
Now 99.9% of the time a simple barked command stops all 9 dogs thankfully & its very rare I have to discipline the dogs. Since Max has been gone we have only had 2 minor arguments.
If anyone dares to mention spay & neuter they will be banned - before anyone asks ALL my dogs/cats are blooming well spayed & neutered!0 -
You try stopping 9 dogs who are fighting to the death with a roar! Amazingly when my rottie & my (now dead) lab trying to be top dog with the other at the time 8 dogs all varying in size from lab x Newfoundland, setter x ridge back & smaller terriers all attacking the rottie - that has always needed way more than a tap on the nose - I could of course not smacked & just waited till half were dead - in the situation which is cruel - me smacking & physically trying to separate the dogs or to sit there & wait till a victor emerged - hold on that would not work cause I don't like dog fights! If I did like dog fighting I could have made a ton of money - Max & Cassie had had many fights - 7 serious ones before this mighty fight. Very sad I feel very guilty but I could patch Max up knowing that the fights would not end
The last fight took over an hour to stop - & caused Cassie the rottie to have surgery & Max the lab sadly had to be PTS as a result of the injuries he sustained.
Now 99.9% of the time a simple barked command stops all 9 dogs thankfully & its very rare I have to discipline the dogs. Since Max has been gone we have only had 2 minor arguments.
If anyone dares to mention spay & neuter they will be banned - before anyone asks ALL my dogs/cats are blooming well spayed & neutered!
Very sorry to hear about Max.
But with so many fights, and by the sounds of things quite serious fights, did you ever wonder if you had too many dogs to handle? Not trying to pass judgement, just a question.0 -
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Yes, but as there are all rescues what do I do with them? No one wanted them so I took them in. People dumped them on my doorstep and drove off. These dogs were abused, starved and thrown from moving cars. Dog warden was no use he would not take them. What am I supposed to do? Keep them for a while and then throw them out? .
This seems to be a problem, once people know you take in animals, everyone in your area starts ringing you and showing up on your doorstep. I had one incident where a vet in the locality told one of his customers to drop her dog down to me if she was trying to rehome it, apparently I would take it. Whatever about other people, but an animal professional :mad:
Doesn't the dog warden have to take stray dogs? Although fair play for hanging onto them, we all know what would happen in the pound. 0 -
Yes, but as there are all rescues what do I do with them? No one wanted them so I took them in. People dumped them on my doorstep and drove off. These dogs were abused, starved and thrown from moving cars. Dog warden was no use he would not take them. What am I supposed to do? Keep them for a while and then throw them out?
As they get older and they die naturally the dog numbers will reduce. Max was the problem he had a brain tumour and since he left there have been no problems.
Good on ya for taking them in! 0 -
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You try stopping 9 dogs who are fighting to the death with a roar! Amazingly when my rottie & my (now dead) lab trying to be top dog with the other at the time 8 dogs all varying in size from lab x Newfoundland, setter x ridge back & smaller terriers all attacking the rottie - that has always needed way more than a tap on the nose - I could of course not smacked & just waited till half were dead - in the situation which is cruel - me smacking & physically trying to separate the dogs or to sit there & wait till a victor emerged - hold on that would not work cause I don't like dog fights! If I did like dog fighting I could have made a ton of money - Max & Cassie had had many fights - 7 serious ones before this mighty fight. Very sad I feel very guilty but I could patch Max up knowing that the fights would not end
The last fight took over an hour to stop - & caused Cassie the rottie to have surgery & Max the lab sadly had to be PTS as a result of the injuries he sustained.
Now 99.9% of the time a simple barked command stops all 9 dogs thankfully & its very rare I have to discipline the dogs. Since Max has been gone we have only had 2 minor arguments.
If anyone dares to mention spay & neuter they will be banned - before anyone asks ALL my dogs/cats are blooming well spayed & neutered!
That's a horrible situation to be in. Wading into the middle of that physically would be a very bad idea - even if you had the urge to - because you almost certainly will be bitten yourself.
Hitting one dog also won't work, because their adrenaline is up and they barely feel it tbh.
My personal experience, the only thing that works in a situation like that is the garden hose. Pressure hose, with a trigger handle on it - you use it from a distance, and turn the tap on full so you get a lot of pressure so the dog notices it when you turn the water on them. The distance keeps you safe, the water splits them apart. You end up with a bunch of very wet dogs, but it should allow you to isolate them from each other without getting bitten yourself.0 -
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A timely statement from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour.
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf
Thanks to Dog Training Ireland for the link.
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Odd-job
You DO realize that there is a massive difference between a a pack of wild African dogs that is inter-related and has to rely on each other for food and survival and a bunch of related humans with one or more well fed pet dog(s)?
Because your dog(s) sure do(es) 0
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