Outer City Bypass

KevR

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So would mode-shifts among intra-city commuters. And it would be a lot cheaper and less disruptive of the homes of people and snails.

Did it not cost almost €16 million to put bus and cycle lanes either side of the SQR? That was a distance of 1.6km

I'm genuinely curious about:

• How many kms of bus and cycle lanes would we need to build to see a major modal shift?
• Assuming that frequency would increase on existing routes and new routes would be introduced - how big would the fleet of buses need to be and how much would it cost?
• What sort of subsidy would be required to run the bus network on a day to day basis?

I just can't see how public transport can provide any sort of a reasonable solution in the short or medium term, we just don't have the density. It would be good if they could increase density in the City Centre in the long term given that Eyre Square and its immediate surroundings are a massive public transport hub (rail, coach and city buses). It makes no sense to allow new office developments in business parks on the outskirts of town where everyone has to drive - high density office space in the City Centre would be a lot better in my opinion. High density residential also.

Iwannahurl

crusier wrote: »

I wonder how many commuters travel the entirety of the M50 every day!

Not a lot, with predictable consequences: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057302852

charlie_says

It's a fairly nasty problem here.

You've got the major natural barrier of Galway Bay and the Corrib (especially with its short run before it balloons into the lower Lough) coupled with the medieval city and dubiously planned modern infrastructure.

Throw in poor public transport, low density housing throughout the city and surrounding areas, a massive problem (I feel at least) with school run traffic, very high levels of car ownership you have a perfect traffic storm.

Whilst some form of other river crossing outside the town would undoubtedly ease some of the traffic problems if left unchecked in the current style then we'd really just be making it worse eventually.

A nuanced and balanced approach is needed here without the short termism of local and national political, financial interests at heart.

Personally I believe that lowering the school run numbers by simultaneously improving public transport and encouraging short walks and cycling by kids would make
a massive difference to the traffic problems here in Galway.

Everyone would agree that the traffic seems quite tolerable in the school holidays, in the mornings in particular?

joeKel73

charlie_says wrote: »

Everyone would agree that the traffic seems quite tolerable in the school holidays, in the mornings in particular?

It probably clashes with your personal commute. The school traffic shouldn't still be a major factor 6-7pm and we get some seriously backed up traffic around then too [ my personal commute ].

Laviski

J o e wrote: »

It probably clashes with your personal commute. The school traffic shouldn't still be a major factor 6-7pm and we get some seriously backed up traffic around then too [ my personal commute ].

What is needed is another bridge.
Then a realistic transport is a bus corridor from WDR to parkmore by changing the lanes on the dual carriageway to bus lanes.

Or some some other road redesign changes that improves the reliability/punctuality of existing services.

death1234567

Laviski wrote: »

What is needed is another bridge.

Yep and it was needed 20 years ago. There's only one "proper" bridge across the river at the moment which is what causes a huge amount of congestion.

snubbleste

Iwannahurl wrote: »

From the Galway Independent, 11th February 2015, page 4 ("Galway facing 'civil war' over bypass project"):

Eileen McCarthy, project manager for Arup consulting engineers, pointed out that just 5% of commuters along the proposed route would travel the entirety of the journey, while 58% of trips across the River Corrib were entirely within Galway City. This, she said, meant that an Outer Bypass was not the solution to Galway's traffic woes.

................

Who commissioned this Arup report and why is not making the headlines?
Most interesting findings.

spurscormac

I don't care about the entirety of the journey, of course the majority won't get on the far side of Barna and off past Briarhill or vice versa.

How many people would actually use part of any of the corridors, as that's what the proposal is about, reducing the number of people who needlessly have to pass through the Browne Roundabout, Newcastle junction in order to get from one side of the city to the other.
Whether I'm going the whole length of the new road is irelevant, would using part of it reduce the congestion we see at the moment?
The simple answer is yes.

Alongside that, with reduced congestion, can we then implement a better all round solution to provide for multi-modal transport solutions?
Yes we probably could, highly unlikely it will be prioritised though.

snubbleste

spurscormac wrote: »

.....
Alongside that, with reduced congestion, can we then implement a better all round solution to provide for multi-modal transport solutions?
Yes we probably could, highly unlikely it will be prioritised though.

Monorail, monorail..

joeKel73

snubbleste wrote: »

Monorail, monorail..

Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail.

GekkePrutser

Iwannahurl wrote: »

From the Galway Independent, 11th February 2015, page 4 ("Galway facing 'civil war' over bypass project"):
So it seems that, all along, many if not most "bypass" advocates were really looking for the expenditure of €300 million (2010 estimate), and now €500-750 million, to enable them to stay in their cars while travelling at most 13 km across, or within, a small west European town of around 75,000 people.

Is that what we are proposing to tell the EU when attempting to justify a major road-building project? Or is there some new spin that will explain away the 58% of within-city trips and the consultants' reported warning that "an Outer Bypass is not the solution"?

What they're saying is that the outer bypass is not the solution to the Connemara traffic problem. It would help significantly with the local problem too, of course. Though I think there are other measures that would be cheaper and similarly effective (such as opening up the bottleneck on the SQR by opening up the bus lane to all traffic). That's the main reason for the traffic jams on the bridge.

You can't deny that Galway needs some improvements in infrastructure. All this modeswitching stuff is cool on paper but it doesn't work in practice. If I look at my commute for one, it is covered by the full length of the 405 bus. However due to all buses going through the congested city centre the journey time would be 40 minutes each way, and that is best-case according to the timetable. Obviously during rush hour Bus Eireann don't meet this. At least in the car I usually spend much less time and I can leave whenever I want.

And cycling I will never do here as long as cyclists don't get absolute priority like they do in Holland, it's simply too dangerous.

chuky_r_law

i havent seen a map of all the routes. can someone post a link where i might find one?

antoobrien

chuky_r_law wrote: »

i havent seen a map of all the routes. can someone post a link where i might find one?

It's been linked a few times, but here you go:

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/phase-2/public-consultation-number-2-display-graphics/

Baggy Trousers

charlie_says wrote: »

It's a fairly nasty problem here.
You've got the major natural barrier of Galway Bay and the Corrib (especially with its short run before it balloons into the lower Lough) coupled with the medieval city and dubiously planned modern infrastructure.

I kayak the lower Lough Corrib a lot and it is remarkably shallow until you get past Oughterard-Headford line. I imagine it would be easy to create a low bridge albeit considerably longer from say below Corrandulla to below Knockferry/Moycullen. Like those low flat bridges that connect the Florida Keys.

Laviski

GekkePrutser wrote: »

What they're saying is that the outer bypass is not the solution to the Connemara traffic problem. It would help significantly with the local problem too, of course. Though I think there are other measures that would be cheaper and similarly effective (such as opening up the bottleneck on the SQR by opening up the bus lane to all traffic). That's the main reason for the traffic jams on the bridge.

Those bus lanes you want to open up to general traffic will destroy the bus times and make the current public transportation worse.

since the introduction of those bus corridors has drastically changed the reliabilty of the 405 bus route. As well as for the other bus operators city direct and bueses from dun aras.


More bus lanes with higher freq is whats needed. But you and other will object as will take away from you using them in single use private cars.

GekkePrutser

Laviski wrote: »

Those bus lanes you want to open up to general traffic will destroy the bus times and make the current public transportation worse.

But the 405 doesn't even use the whole bus lane, instead it slowly snakes its way through the back streets of Shantalla, to the even more congested city centre. And it has to wait at the same traffic lights and merge at the ESB site which makes it even slower. If both lanes were open to all traffic (with pull-in bus stops) all traffic would flow, not the occasional bus/taxi.

Laviski wrote: »

More bus lanes with higher freq is whats needed. But you and other will object as will take away from you using them in single use private cars.

A higher frequency won't fix the (at least) 40-minute journey time that is really the issue. That's what's stopping me from using it and I'm sure the same applies to other motorists.. I could live with a 30-minute departure (as opposed to the current 20) as long as it was a quick bus ride.

If there was actually a direct bus between the westside (where a lot of Galway's population live) to the east (where most businesses are located), this would help tremendously. Most of my colleagues live on the west side too. Even if it was just a service for weekdays at commute times it would be sufficient.

KevR

Laviski wrote: »

But you and other will object as will take away from you using them in single use private cars.

I'm guessing you mean single occupancy?

What do you think of doing a trial on the SQR - change the bus lanes into High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes for 6 months or so. Any vehicle with 3 or more passengers could use the HOV lane. There is no legitimate reason not to trial it.

Similarly, why has there never been a trial of bus routes running across the QB (avoiding the Eyre Square)? There is funding and spare buses for a Christmas P&R, it's remarkable that there has not been any trials of routes which avoid Eyre Square. It's hard to excuse the fact that there has never been a trial. It's also inexplicable that people are convinced that public transport alone can solve Galway's transport problems when we have never even had a trial of some new major bus routes.

Mrs OBumble

GekkePrutser wrote: »

A higher frequency won't fix the (at least) 40-minute journey time that is really the issue. That's what's stopping me from using it and I'm sure the same applies to other motorists.. I could live with a 30-minute departure (as opposed to the current 20) as long as it was a quick bus ride.

How long does your current car commute take you - including time to find parking?

GekkePrutser

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How long does your current car commute take you - including time to find parking?

In the morning 15-20 minutes, in the evening 20-30, sometimes a bit more. But 40 minutes would be exceptional. For some reason the morning traffic is way better. But it could be because I usually start pretty late.

Parking is not an issue as there is plenty where I live and at work. It would take me more time to walk to the bus stop (and being there in advance to catch the bus, that wasn't even included in the 40 mins ). A direct bus would save so much time, most of the traffic delays are on the SQR where a bus would have no obstructions. And there would have to be no stops between the headford road and ballybrit. The traffic there is not that bad at all. In fact it's usually even quicker to rat-run around the SQR (from the bridge past the hospital through Dr Mannix road) even though that's way longer and also busy. But like I said a direct bus wouldn't have to do so.

Edit: By the way I think KevR's HOV lane idea is a great one too, stimulates carpooling as well as releaving traffic pressure.

Iwannahurl

KevR wrote: »

Similarly, why has there never been a trial of bus routes running across the QB (avoiding the Eyre Square)? There is funding and spare buses for a Christmas P&R, it's remarkable that there has not been any trials of routes which avoid Eyre Square. It's hard to excuse the fact that there has never been a trial. It's also inexplicable that people are convinced that public transport alone can solve Galway's transport problems when we have never even had a trial of some new major bus routes.

There has never been proper development of PT in Galway because of political cowardice, lack of vision and general apathy towards anything but the accommodation of private cars. The failure to link the Luas lines would be an example in Dublin.

A QBC over the Quin Bridge is proposed in the 2007 Strategic Bus study, but that was made contingent on the GCOB.

I don't have a link, but the N6 Galway City Transport Projects, as reported in today's Advertiser, claims that PT alone cannot solve the traffic.

I have seen no study setting out the evidence to support such a claim.

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There has never been proper development of PT in Galway because of political cowardice, lack of vision and general apathy towards anything but the accommodation of private cars. The failure to link the Luas lines would be an example in Dublin.

A QBC over the Quin Bridge is proposed in the 2007 Strategic Bus study, but that was made contingent on the GCOB.

I don't have a link, but the N6 Galway City Transport Projects, as reported in today's Advertiser, claims that PT alone cannot solve the traffic.

I have seen no study setting out the evidence to support such a claim.

Since they have removed the GCOB from the City Development plan does that alter the Strategic Bus Study. from 2007?

Laviski

GekkePrutser wrote: »

But the 405 doesn't even use the whole bus lane, instead it slowly snakes its way through the back streets of Shantalla, to the even more congested city centre. And it has to wait at the same traffic lights and merge at the ESB site which makes it even slower. If both lanes were open to all traffic (with pull-in bus stops) all traffic would flow, not the occasional bus/taxi.



A higher frequency won't fix the (at least) 40-minute journey time that is really the issue. That's what's stopping me from using it and I'm sure the same applies to other motorists.. I could live with a 30-minute departure (as opposed to the current 20) as long as it was a quick bus ride.

If there was actually a direct bus between the westside (where a lot of Galway's population live) to the east (where most businesses are located), this would help tremendously. Most of my colleagues live on the west side too. Even if it was just a service for weekdays at commute times it would be sufficient.

first you should have read my post.
second use correct information.


405 bus lane does in fact use the entire bus lane on the SQR
the bus you are reffering to is the city direct bus 412 that goes through shantalla.
411 is another city direct bus that uses 85% of the bus lane on SQR as it comes down from rahoon road and all the way using the bus lane.

also do note buses run regularly enough to the college also - dun aras village. so this bus lane is used quite regularly.


what i have suggested is that another bridge needs to be built. then start to look at converting roads into bus corridors with the primary intentions of continuing the bus lane from SQR to over the bridge and create a new bus route avoiding the city center.

buses get delayed by the vicinity of eyre square a lot. The road layout changes at foster court as helped a lot. but there is a problem on eglinton street and a solution once a bridge it built to perhaps to only allow PT vehicles from afternoon onwards. Flame it all you want for that idea, just pointing out where buses are getting delayed alot.

again nothing can be looked at seriously until the bridge is built. the sooner the better.

Fitz*

Laviski wrote: »

since the introduction of those bus corridors has drastically changed the reliabilty of the 405 bus route.

The 405 is the most unreliable bus route I have ever gotten in my life. It is absolutely awful.

Thankfully in the last few months I do not need to get it as frequent but when I was, it would often count 3 days in a 5 day week where a bus would be over 10 minutes late or simply not show up. I remember a handful of times where the bus would arrive 45 minutes later than it was supposed to be. Drivers will always claim to be on time, but waiting at a bus stop for 40 minutes, you know this is not true.

The end of the 405 route is Ballybane and at the end of the working day, the majority of people using this route are going in the direction of Ballybane - City centre yet it never dawned on Bus Eireann to start a route there rather than wait for buses to get out of the city (through all the traffic) just to bring people back in. Wouldn't it make more sense to start a bus out there around 5pm for 2 hours.

Laviski

FitzShane wrote: »

The 405 is the most unreliable bus route I have ever gotten in my life. It is absolutely awful.

Thankfully in the last few months I do not need to get it as frequent but when I was, it would often count 3 days in a 5 day week where a bus would be over 10 minutes late or simply not show up. I remember a handful of times where the bus would arrive 45 minutes later than it was supposed to be. Drivers will always claim to be on time, but waiting at a bus stop for 40 minutes, you know this is not true.

The end of the 405 route is Ballybane and at the end of the working day, the majority of people using this route are going in the direction of Ballybane - City centre yet it never dawned on Bus Eireann to start a route there rather than wait for buses to get out of the city (through all the traffic) just to bring people back in. Wouldn't it make more sense to start a bus out there around 5pm for 2 hours.

prior to the bus lane introduction i would completely agree with you. But as for now i think you were over exaggerating/unlucky. I have found the 405 reliable up to about 4pm after which it turns to crap and understandably so with rush hour traffic. As i mentioned buses get caught in certain bottlenecks. In the instance for the 405 there are a few problems, it gets delayed hugely at eglinton street and when traffic is really bad and there is heavy traffic build up on Tuam road. Solutions to improve PT can't really happen until there is alternative bridge built and at least this time when planning goes through it will over ride the objections from the environmentalists.

So to sum up on topic - Build the damm bridge.
preference would be green or blue route. But being realistic can see the green route being chosen.

Mrs OBumble

FitzShane wrote: »

The end of the 405 route is Ballybane and at the end of the working day, the majority of people using this route are going in the direction of Ballybane - City centre yet it never dawned on Bus Eireann to start a route there rather than wait for buses to get out of the city (through all the traffic) just to bring people back in. Wouldn't it make more sense to start a bus out there around 5pm for 2 hours.

I presume you mean that most people are going in the directio of Knocknacarra.

If so, you are wrong: it dawned on BE to run such a service a very long time ago - my guess is sometime prior to 1998 (based on the way they label the bus).

However it never dawned on them that it might be a good idea to publicise it, the only information is here: http://www.galwaytransport.info/2011/01/ballybrit-industrial-estate-factory-run.html

I cannot speak for the Eyre Square to Knocknacarra section of the route. But reliability of the Ballybrit to Eyre Square section is hugely improved over what it was in 2007, due to the remove of Moneenageshia RAB and double-laning the bottom of Wellpark.

fyi, most people get off in Eyre Square.

Iwannahurl

what_traffic wrote: »

Since they have removed the GCOB from the City Development plan does that alter the Strategic Bus Study. from 2007?

I wouldn't think so.

The recommendation in the Bus Study would stand (or fall) on its own merits, presumably.

However, in my view the "N6 Galway City Transport Project" (N6TP) consultants are going to have to tackle what I believe is the basic chicken-and-egg (or is it omelette-and-egg?) problem: build a "bypass" first and you theoretically free up space for public transport, but then, because you have introduced a major supply-side measure to ease car-commuting, you have also just spent €500-750 million undermining the utility of public transport, which you still have to pay for.

It is my view that the public transport option should be tackled first, which could include a QBC over the Quincentenary Bridge. This could be facilitated by Park & Ride and by congestion charging to deter cross-town car commuting.

There is no political will to even consider such options.

Recent reports in the local press make it clear that what many people want is a road to ease their car commuting, but they don't want such a road to go through their neighbourhood. Edited excerpts below, from today's City Tribune (front page headline: "Tunnel Vision").

[The N6TP project manager] also appeared to rule out a public transport only solution, pointing out that while bus usage had increased from 5% to 27%, congestion and journey time had increased in the absence of a ring-road. A light rail system at a cost of €600 million was deemed too expensive for a city of Galway's density.

To have the ring-road further out of the city which would result in less disturbance would not have the desired impact of improving intra-city congestion.

Is she saying public transport has a 27% modal share in Galway City? If so, I'm actually pleasantly surprised. I mustn't have been paying attention. Who deemed light rail too expensive, and on the basis of what analyses?

Cllr Niall McNelis said the project was pitting suburbs against each other -- Barna v Menlo, Knocknacarra v Newcastle -- and causing huge distress for homeowners. One had spent the weekend drawing up a list of what she could bring with her if her home was demolished and worrying about whether she could dig up a family pet buried in the garden.

More than 200 people who attended Menlo school hall on Monday night heard plans for a campaign to protect the famine village against destruction from the proposed new ring road.

Separately around 200 residents from Bushy Park, Westside, Dangan, Tonabrucky and Newcastle also gathered in Westwood Hotel on Sunday, and formed a group to lobby for a new route that has less impact on people and communities.

The as yet unnamed N6 committee says it is pro-people, pro-community and pro-business, and says residents in those areas recognise the need for a solution to traffic congestion, but the routes proposed are too destructive to communities.

"We have adopted a 'protect Menlo Village' approach rather than an 'attack the bypass routes' approach. The road is going to happen. Everyone knows something has to happen regarding traffic."

"We accept a solution must be found but we believe that the village of Menlo, a famine village, must be protected not just for the people who live in Menlo, or for the fella who has family going back ten generations here, but for the whole of Galway."

"All of the routes will cause chaos. It is something that would be catastrophic to us [Ballybrit Racecourse]. It's absolutely ridiculous. Who comes up with the idea that you put a road through a racecourse? It just shows the lack of planning and thinking."

And a couple of comments from the Tribune's online poll:

There are better options than destroying people's homes and lives just to save a 10 minute commute in the morning. And it is only when school is on or during the Races that this is an issue. Maybe we need school buses -- it would be cheaper.

Here we go again, the alternative solutions brigade with suggestions that we change working hours, and build a light rail and what not. Try to avoid building a bypass by somehow rolling out loads of changes to numerous stakeholders and assuming that resources will be found to pay for it all! Build the bypass and give so many of us a little part of our lives back every day.

Galwayps

charlie_says wrote: »

It's a fairly nasty problem here.

You've got the major natural barrier of Galway Bay and the Corrib (especially with its short run before it balloons into the lower Lough) coupled with the medieval city and dubiously planned modern infrastructure.

Throw in poor public transport, low density housing throughout the city and surrounding areas, a massive problem (I feel at least) with school run traffic, very high levels of car ownership you have a perfect traffic storm.

Whilst some form of other river crossing outside the town would undoubtedly ease some of the traffic problems if left unchecked in the current style then we'd really just be making it worse eventually.

A nuanced and balanced approach is needed here without the short termism of local and national political, financial interests at heart.

Personally I believe that lowering the school run numbers by simultaneously improving public transport and encouraging short walks and cycling by kids would make
a massive difference to the traffic problems here in Galway.

Everyone would agree that the traffic seems quite tolerable in the school holidays, in the mornings in particular?

I live in Newcastle and see the road grind to a halt everyday from the school rush. One factor in my opinion is the use of unsuitable buses as its invariably 52 seater or other second hand commuter buses which are far too big for the number of students on the routes . While it is good to give out of season tour buses work surely there could be smaller buses employed . Unfortunately many of the inner roads, turns and bends cannot cope well with sure large vehicles.
Walking should really be encouraged also

Also a bridge built on the pillars of the galway/clifden railway with a roadway along the embankment leading on headford road and access up thru hidden valley towards Eyre square would be a relatively inexpensive option as public transport only route usable by pedestrian and cyclists . The University would need to be on board to access the other side but I believe they have an obligation to do something considering the numbers of students with cars plus their overall increase in numbers over the last 10 years

Iwannahurl

charlie_says wrote: »

Personally I believe that lowering the school run numbers by simultaneously improving public transport and encouraging short walks and cycling by kids would make a massive difference to the traffic problems here in Galway.

Everyone would agree that the traffic seems quite tolerable in the school holidays, in the mornings in particular?

It's a well-recognised phenomenon.

Nobody has tackled it comprehensively because very few people are interested in change.

The City Council doesn't lead or plan, AGS doesn't care or enforce, the school authorities are part of the problem, and parents and their children can't or won't walk, cycle or take the bus.

We've had decades of inaction and apathy, because (a) people are happy driving and (b) the bypass was/is going to solve it all.

At my kids school this morning I saw a parent parking up on the footpath, having driven three children less than 800 metres to the school. It's crazy, yet nothing abnormal is going on.

galah

Maybe we need to look at changing the school system though - no more free choice, your kids have to attend the school closest to your house. Might need to build a few more schools, but could at least help with traffic.:pac:

There's no way i'd send my kids out on a bicycle in Galway traffic though - not unless every road has a decent cycle lane and every driver has been reeducated.

And this still won't solve the morning commuter traffic.

In terms of impact, what would the problem be with some sort of high speed trains i wonder? You could have a park and ride say in Barna, hop onto the train, and zoom out to Parkmore/ballybrit, maybe with a few stops along the way that are also served by busses to other central locations. Probably better than a road that will need to be upgraded/widened (any provisions for that?) in a few years time with an ever growing population.

Eeden

galah wrote: »

Maybe we need to look at changing the school system though - no more free choice, your kids have to attend the school closest to your house. Might need to build a few more schools, but could at least help with traffic.:pac:

You can only do this if there is an entirely state-run, entirely non-denominational system. You can't expect parents to send their children to the school closest to them if that school has a religious ethos that is not theirs (and this is becoming much more the norm). And that isn't a choice for most families yet.

But yes, this should be changed.

That's a whole 'nother thread, though.