Outer City Bypass

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I used to commute cross-town, mainly by bike but sometimes combining it with bus.

It has been pointed out repeatedly that just 5% of traffic on a bypass would be through traffic and that a substantial majority of trips are intra-city only:



Why are bypass enthusiasts ignoring what the N6GCTP project manager is saying?

Would you cycle from Carraroe to Boston scientific?

Gingko

Galway used to be such a beautiful city! Charming medieval streets leading on to the Corrib and on to the beautiful view of Galway Bay and the Burren.

Time and time they get it wrong though. The Celtic Tiger suburbs are horrible. The infrastructure around the city was drawn up in a play school and the development of Salthill is an eyesore and doesn't work. Even the development plans of the new harbour / marina looks like it will have a negative effect on the marine ecology and not forgetting the disastrous plans for mega Salmon fish farms in the bay. How could they get it all so very wrong? Yes some of the old center is still nice but in general Galway as a whole is not a nice city any more? I was chatting with tourists on Quay Street last Summer and they thought Galway was meant to be nicer and more intact in general and they agreed that is was very badly planned and sporadically built up. Yes were all for positive and intelligent change but while keeping the beauty in place.

Is it greed? Or lack of real education? Or just general mindlessness? Such a shame.

Iwannahurl

crusier wrote: »

Would you cycle from Carraroe to Boston scientific?

Are you one of the 5%?

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I went on to emphasise public transport, and I again asked how a ring-road for car commuters will help in that regard. You've been ignoring that question. Of course, you're one of the few, more candid proponents of a "bypass" who are willing to admit what such road expansion plans and really for and would really achieve.

It will free up space in the city centre as cars will either be able to avoid the city if they are bypassing or only enter at points close to their destination. This will mean less congestion so public transport will be able to move more freely and it may allow more bus lanes as less cars will be using interior parts of the city that's just two very simple example how public transport could be almost immediately helped.

It also means those who do need to drive around the city are less hindered by cars who have no need to be in that part of the city aside from trying to get through.

Iwannahurl

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

It will free up space in the city centre as cars will either be able to avoid the city if they are bypassing or only enter at points close to their destination. This will mean less congestion so public transport will be able to move more freely and it may allow more bus lanes as less cars will be using interior parts of the city that's just two very simple example how public transport could be almost immediately helped.

It also means those who do need to drive around the city are less hindered by cars who have no need to be in that part of the city aside from trying to get through.

Are you going to switch to public transport when a bypass is built?

Leaving aside the minor detail that, according to the N6GCTP manager, a bypass won't solve Galway's traffic problems, the repeated mantra that a new road will facilitate public transport within the city really needs to be deconstructed.

It's a claim that's easy to make and which has soundbite appeal, but it gives rise to further questions, which are crucial in my opinion. Currently the biggest deterrent to car use is congestion, as evidenced by motorists complaining about traffic all the time. Yet nearly 4 out of 5 use their cars daily, many of them over short distances of 4 km or less. The private car is also the dominant mode for the school run, which itself is a major contributor to traffic (except during the summer and other holidays, obviously) yet the schools will still be there after a bypass is built.

If a bypass is built, massively improving the convenience of private motoring, why would any commuter want to switch from the car to public transport, walking or cycling?

What could possibly motivate them to switch modes?

Having clamoured for years for a bypass to relieve their commute, why would car commuters suddenly decide not to drive?

Or are we expected to believe that thousands of motorists are demanding a bypass so that, as soon as it's built, they can abandon their cars and leave other motorists to enjoy the new free-flowing highway?

Meanwhile, with newly free-flowing streets within the city as well, what would motivate motorists to leave their cars at home?

Are we expected to believe that they will see loads of newly available space on our urban streets and forget about their cars, when they did not do so at any stage previously, even during times of acute congestion? Is that really a credible scenario?

And if thousands of car commuters divert to a newly-opened bypass, who is going to populate the bus lanes, cycle paths and pedestrian facilities that will, of necessity, have to spring up practically overnight?

Finally, when thousands of commuters are taken out by a bypass, from where will come the critical mass of passengers needed to make public transport viable?

Bear in mind that the N6GCTP has already concluded that light rail would not be viable, because the population density is not sufficient. Taking out thousands of car commuters will lower the density even further.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you going to switch to public transport when a bypass is built?

When I move back to Galway I will be living in the country so public transport will never be an option for me. If I was living in the city and public transport was reliable, very regular and passed very close to where I lived and where I worked I may use it or certainly use it sometimes anyway.

It may not necessarily mean more people are using public transport or cycling but for those who do it will be a more pleasant experience and for those who continue to drive it will also be easier as traffic will not be as bad.

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you one of the 5%?

No, would you cycle from Carraroe to Boston scientific?

Iwannahurl

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

When I move back to Galway I will be living in the country so public transport will never be an option for me. If I was living in the city and public transport was reliable, very regular and passed very close to where I lived and where I worked I may use it or certainly use it sometimes anyway.

It may not necessarily mean more people are using public transport or cycling but for those who do it will be a more pleasant experience and for those who continue to drive it will also be easier as traffic will not be as bad.

People's individual circumstances, my own included, do not reveal the big picture, which is what counts in the long run.

In my view the claims being made that a "bypass" will be a boost for public transport are at best misguided. However, it's only a slogan in any case, because I don't think car commuters really care whether public transport will be improved or not. The vast majority have no urgent desire to leave their cars, which is why their 'vote' is for a "bypass" not for a massive reorientation of policy in the direction of public transport and related modes. After a bypass is built their interest in the subject will instantly evaporate, which is understandable and entirely predictable. "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department says Wernher von Braun."

crusier wrote: »

No, would you cycle from Carraroe to Boston scientific?

I'm not one of the 5%.

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

People's individual circumstances, my own included, do not reveal the big picture, which is what counts in the long run.

In my view the claims being made that a "bypass" will be a boost for public transport are at best misguided. However, it's only a slogan in any case, because I don't think car commuters really care whether public transport will be improved or not. The vast majority have no urgent desire to leave their cars, which is why their 'vote' is for a "bypass" not for a massive reorientation of policy in the direction of public transport and related modes. After a bypass is built their interest in the subject will instantly evaporate, which is understandable and entirely predictable. "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department says Wernher von Braun."




I'm not one of the 5%.

I'll take that as a no!

El_Dangeroso

So the idea is to not improve traffic -> ??? -> Improved public transport

What is this magical interim step? And how will prohibiting a bypass instigate it?

crusier

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

So the idea is to not improve traffic -> ??? -> Improved public transport

What is this magical interim step? And how will prohibiting a bypass instigate it?

By increasing gridlock you force people to walk or get on their bikes even if its from Carraroe or spiddeal, the ozone layer will close up and the icebergs will reform! I say let's knock the quinncentinal bridge and get the process moving even quicker!

dubhthach

crusier wrote: »

By increasing gridlock you force people to walk or get on their bikes even if its from Carraroe or spiddeal, the ozone layer will close up and the icebergs will reform! I say let's knock the quinncentinal bridge and get the process moving even quicker!

Sure historically there was a ford at Terryland Castle (thence also the now-gone "New Castle" on the west bank), get rid of the weir (which keeps river at higher level) and implode the QCB and the Soccer moms can at least get full use of their 4x4's fording the river!

Webbs

Will a bypass improve or change the habits of lets say commuters from Athenry, Oranmore, Clarinbridge etc to the city centre or estates on east side of city? I would hazard a guess at no so you will still have the same problems at the same junctions as now.
For example if someone works in the city or NUIG or UCHG would they drive from Athenry all the way around on a bypass to then drop down the road from Moycullen or nearby to still hit a major bottleneck.
I just cant see how a bypass will take enough cars out of the city at rush hour.

galwaycyclist

crusier wrote: »

By increasing gridlock you force people to walk or get on their bikes even if its from Carraroe or spiddeal, the ozone layer will close up and the icebergs will reform! I say let's knock the quinncentinal bridge and get the process moving even quicker!

Uh no I am afraid you have it backwards. The "gridlock" exists in large part because the city council (and what passes for a "police force" in this country) have effectively forced many people into cars for all trips.

The city council has acted with with an over-arching attitude of sustained hostility towards cycling and walking for decades. Building a bypass without addressing the issues that make city dwellers feel forced into cars does nothing to address the underlying problems with how the city has been managed.

Despite the recession and several years of record fuel prices there has not been a spontaneous switched back to walking and cycling. This is what makes the current downturn different to the crash in the early 80's. It shows that there is a fundamental problem with how the city has been set up and managed. That problem cannot be solved by throwing another dual carriageway at it.

Baggy Trousers

Webbs wrote: »

For example if someone works in the city or NUIG or UCHG would they drive from Athenry all the way around on a bypass to then drop down the road from Moycullen or nearby to still hit a major bottleneck.
I just cant see how a bypass will take enough cars out of the city at rush hour.

The N59 Moycullen road actually has much less traffic than other routes into Galway. You can usually fly into the Westwood hotel from Moycullen in 10-15 mins.

crusier

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh no I am afraid you have it backwards. The "gridlock" exists in large part because the city council (and what passes for a "police force" in this country) have effectively forced many people into cars for all trips.

The city council has acted with with an over-arching attitude of sustained hostility towards cycling and walking for decades. Building a bypass without addressing the issues that make city dwellers feel forced into cars does nothing to address the underlying problems with how the city has been managed.

Despite the recession and several years of record fuel prices there has not been a spontaneous switched back to walking and cycling. This is what makes the current downturn different to the crash in the early 80's. It shows that there is a fundamental problem with how the city has been set up and managed. That problem cannot be solved by throwing another dual carriageway at it.

Cycle to work scheme?

galwaycyclist

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

So the idea is to not improve traffic -> ??? -> Improved public transport

What is this magical interim step? And how will prohibiting a bypass instigate it?

What do you mean by "improving" traffic? If you mean "increase" traffic then just throw more roads at it.

Trying to solve a peak-hour traffic problem by throwing roads at it is a bit like trying to stop a fire by throwing petrol on it. The traffic will simply grow until it fills the capacity provided. This of course is what some people want to achieve.

I don't know of anyone who argues the point from a pure transport perspective who thinks that a bypass should be "prohibited". That seems to me like a "straw man" argument designed to avoid addressing the issues.

The central issue is that the "bypass" cannot achieve the things being claimed for it. Therefore this cannot be the purpose for which it is being sought by various politicians and commentators. Why should anyone accept the spending of vast sums of public money on a project that clearly cannot have the effect being claimed?

galwaycyclist

crusier wrote: »

Cycle to work scheme?

That has nothing to do with local government. Clearly also most of the money invested in the cycle to work scheme has ended up in sports cycling rather than transport cycling.

what_traffic

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The central issue is that the "bypass" cannot achieve the things being claimed for it. Therefore this cannot be the purpose for which it is being sought by various politicians and commentators. Why should anyone accept the spending of vast sums of public money on a project that clearly cannot have the effect being claimed?

The ARUP engineers responsible for the "N6 Transportation Study scheme" have stated this as well. They know a bypass on it's own will not solve Galway's transport woe's yet have ZERO proposals to do anything about it. Madness.

dubhthach

galwaycyclist wrote: »

That has nothing to do with local government. Clearly also most of the money invested in the cycle to work scheme has ended up in sports cycling rather than transport cycling.

Technically the same goes for National Roads which are outside the authority of Local Government and the remit of the NRA. The scheme is specifically a National road been a continuation of the M6/N6. In this case the NRA are the commissioning organisation.

El_Dangeroso

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I don't know of anyone who argues the point from a pure transport perspective who thinks that a bypass should be "prohibited". That seems to me like a "straw man" argument designed to avoid addressing the issues.

There are many people here stating the bypass shouldn't happen, stating the solution is increased public transport.

What is being ignored that stopping a bypass will do absolutely nothing towards increasing public transport utilisation. Anything else is fantasy.

crusier

galwaycyclist wrote: »

That has nothing to do with local government. Clearly also most of the money invested in the cycle to work scheme has ended up in sports cycling rather than transport cycling.

So a bike isn't always a bike?

what_traffic

http://connachttribune.ie/more-than-a-thousand-submissions-on-potential-city-bypass/

Should be some interesting reading.

The likelihood of this even getting to Phase 4 at this point seems to be diminishing!
http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/project-phases-2/

Mrs OBumble

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

What is being ignored that stopping a bypass will do absolutely nothing towards increasing public transport utilisation. Anything else is fantasy.

Ahh, I'm not sure that the evidence supports that claim.

In the first five months of 2014, bus usage grew by 7%, following from strong growth in 2013 as well.

Why? In 2012, they did a radical overhaul of routes, and making the timetables more sensible.

ref: http://connachttribune.ie/big-jump-numbers-taking-bus-galway/

The route 409 bus in particular is spectacularly successful. It was only implemented in April 2009, replacing a very patchy service in the area previously. It's now one of the most profitable routes in the country. Helped a lot by the bus-lanes on the Dublin Rd, but even so they don't cover the full length of the road, or cover College Rd. Despite that, I can name absolutely died-in-the-wool private car fans, who now tell me that they catch the bus into town because it's so much easier than parking.

And not a bypass in sight.

El_Dangeroso

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, I'm not sure that the evidence supports that claim.

In the first five months of 2014, bus usage grew by 7%, following from strong growth in 2013 as well.

Why? In 2012, they did a radical overhaul of routes, and making the timetables more sensible.

ref: http://connachttribune.ie/big-jump-numbers-taking-bus-galway/

The route 409 bus in particular is spectacularly successful. It was only implemented in April 2009, replacing a very patchy service in the area previously. It's now one of the most profitable routes in the country. Helped a lot by the bus-lanes on the Dublin Rd, but even so they don't cover the full length of the road, or cover College Rd. Despite that, I can name absolutely died-in-the-wool private car fans, who now tell me that they catch the bus into town because it's so much easier than parking.

And not a bypass in sight.

You didn't read my post, they are all very sensible and worthy initiatives and we should continue to implement and expand on them.

And having a bypass would have done nothing to hinder it. It's not a zero sum game, you can have public transport initiatives alongside a bypass. Why are opponents pitching it as either/or?

galwaycyclist

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

What is being ignored that stopping a bypass will do absolutely nothing towards increasing public transport utilisation. Anything else is fantasy.

No actually according to one analysis you have it exactly the wrong way around. For years the lack of a by pass has been used as an excuse for not tackling various issues in the city - including improving public transport.

Everything would have to wait until there was a bypass.

When the Seamus Quirke Road upgrade was being discussed by the city councillors the then senior engineer - Mr. Joe Tansey - bitterly opposed the provision of bus lanes. He argued that there should be no bus lanes until the bypass was built. To their credit the elected councillors rejected his claims and voted to make two of the lanes into bus lanes.

It was like the city engineers were trying to put a gun to everyone's head; "Give us our bypass or we will make sure you will all suffer". The problem is that at no point have those same engineers produced any credible plan for improving the city centre situation after their bypass is built.

So in one analysis - as long as there is a possibility of a bypass - the city roads engineers will use it as an excuse for making the city traffic worse - so that they can demonstrate the "need" for a bypass. By that logic - if the bypass option can be made to "go away" then maybe there is a chance of getting the roads engineers to do their jobs and start managing the city for the benefit of those who live in the city.

El_Dangeroso

So what your are saying is the lack of a bypass is giving the city engineers an excuse to not focus on putting in other measures.

So when we get a bypass they'll magically start doing all that stuff? Or will they come up with another excuse? Thus maybe the problem isn't the bypass, but the city engineers.

dubhthach

The QCB has been open for what 25 years? How come Bus Éireann haven't routed any buses over it? Surely with the presence of Bus Lanes on SQR you'd end up with quite an efficient service that could directly link West side of city to the east. What I see is that Galway suffers a worse case of "An Lár-ism" than Dublin.

Gerobrien25

The route 409 bus in particular is spectacularly successful. It was only implemented in April 2009, replacing a very patchy service in the area previously. It's now one of the most profitable routes in the country. Helped a lot by the bus-lanes on the Dublin Rd, but even so they don't cover the full length of the road, or cover College Rd. Despite that, I can name absolutely died-in-the-wool private car fans, who now tell me that they catch the bus into town because it's so much easier than parking.

And not a bypass in sight.[/quote]

I beg to differ took route 409 a few times in the last few months. Took me an hour and a half each time to get to city centre. Meanwhile other members of my family drove into town on same evenings and took approx 45 mins on each occasion. There was no major reason why it should have taken so long other than all the traffic crossing the CORRIB has to go through 3 points in the town

galwaycyclist

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

So when we get a bypass they'll magically start doing all that stuff? Or will they come up with another excuse? Thus maybe the problem isn't the bypass, but the city engineers.

Yes that would be my own analysis. And I would not restrict it to the Galway city engineers. If we are to seriously improve our towns and cities. Then it seems to me that, as community, we need to recognise that we have a civil engineering profession who are collectively unfit for purpose. Its like having a medical profession who choose not to recognise "germ theory".

So as a community we need to recognise that Irish roads engineers are not suitable to act as primary advisors on matters of transport policy and infrastructure provision. They might advise on construction methods but not on what is to be constructed.