Outer City Bypass

dubhthach

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Respectfully, the level of anti-social behaviour expected from pedestrians here may be slightly different. Pedestrianisation works where there is a high density of pedestrians. But where it's lower and you remove the passive surveilance provided by passing cars, things get dangerous.

I hardly think Middle Street or Cross Street would suddenly become havens for anti-social behaviour, they already have a considerable pedestrian presence same goes for Abbeygate street.

Market street without some redevelopment (surface car park proposed to be turned into shopping/pedestrian precient) and Augustinian street might be different story. Though if I recall some of proposals with regards to Market street was to pedestrianise it after junction with Bowling green, this would then allow pedestrianisation of Abbeygate street.

For those not familiar here was basic layout of walled city, Eglinton street was 19th century intrusion along the line of the eastern wall (southern bit of which survives in Eyre Square shopping center)

Iwannahurl

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure which is why I've said it many times on this thread and others that any Outer bypass project should also include the following in it's costing/funding:

Widening of Western Distrubitor road to include buslanes/cyclelanes (contuination of same on SQR)
Doesn't need a "bypass".

Conversion of QCB from dual carriageway to single carriageway with Buslanes/cycle lanes (get rid of those awful ones currently in place)
Originally said to require a "bypass" but may actually be attempted without same in our lifetime...

Likewise for Séan Moyvole road, providing link to Dublin road buslane
As QCB above, perhaps.

Convert the hard-shoulders on the R446 (former N6) all way out to Oranmore, likewise convert the hard shoulders of current "Bypass" from junction with N6/M6 to Ballybrit junction to bus lanes
Not sure how applicable/urgent this is.

Bus lane/cycle lane in both directions along Tuam road from Cemetry cross (interchange with buslane coming across QCB) out to at least Parkmore
As QCB above, perhaps. I don't know. But it shows the scale of the remedial action required to reverse decades of neglect. Tuam Road is a hellhole.

Provision of new pedestrian/cyclist only bridges across the river (old railway bridge, queen's gap, claddagh)
Doesn't need a "bypass".

removal of surface carparking within city center at Market Steet, Newtownsmyth, Woodquay, Millstreet
Definitely doesn't need a "bypass".

Parallel bridge to replace current Salmon Weir Bridge, existing one to be pedestrian/cyclist only
extended pedestrian zone
Doesn't need a "bypass".

one way traffic system in areas such as woodquay/francis street (heck lets go the Gronigen zoned route)
Already in parts of Woodquay/Waterside, restricting cyclists so that car parking can be maximised.

In comparison all you suggest is lets close some bridges and we won't have to spend a dime. pfff
Personally I would suggest spending a fraction of the reported cost of a "bypass", say 10-20% of those hundreds of millions, on city-wide modifications and new infrastructure, TDM, school travel interventions etc. Smarter Travel on steroids, as it were. Galway City Council officials could be paid to stay well away -- money well spent I'd reckon. Perhaps some money could also be spent on a study of congestion charging/road pricing, although if that isn't being considered for the capital city yet, it may be regarded as OTT for Galway.

Bobeagleburger

Cycling is great, I do it myself. However it's not practical for a lot people that have to cross a good distance from West to East daily.

dubhthach

Given traffic load on the QCB I don't think it would be viable to reduce it's capacity by 50% without providing an alternative route, unless you are proposing removing the current foothpath/cycle lane (to be replaced by parallel pedestrian bridge? or some sorta retrograded bolt on spans on either side).

As for rest I'm not saying they require bypass I'm saying that they should be part of the project so as to get best bang for buck eg. integrated plan, there's already talk of an inbound bus lane on section of Tuam road inbound from Parkmore to I believe the junction with current "bypass" (report was commissioned Q4 2014 tender up on etenders). If they are tied to one contract they'll actually get built in one go, likewise it would be considerably easier to raise the funds require to build them on the capital markets (otherwise we'll be waiting 20 years for council to come up with the cash)

I'm not convinced by this €750million claims, back in 2009 the proposed GCOB was claimed by the likes of Catherine Connolly to cost €350 million, the Connacht Turbine reckoned at same time that it would cost €320 million, where's the sudden jump coming from? We need exact costing of each route, my feeling is the higher one is specifically for the red route which combines the following:

• Mass demolition/CPO
• Large scale cut and cover
• Bored tunnel

The reject GCOB was 21.4km long, the M17/M18 currently under construction has a length of 57km and a fixed price contract of €550million (eg. if it costs 600 million then construction firm is 50m out of pocket!)

Given that the green route is somewhat longer than the old GCOB (what 25-30km) you would expect it's cost to be perhaps 20-25% higher. 100 properties on average house prices would cost circa €20-30 million at market value to CPO.

Mrs OBumble

dubhthach wrote: »

I hardly think Middle Street or Cross Street would suddenly become havens for anti-social behaviour, they already have a considerable pedestrian presence same goes for Abbeygate street.

Market street without some redevelopment (surface car park proposed to be turned into shopping/pedestrian precient) and Augustinian street might be different story. Though if I recall some of proposals with regards to Market street was to pedestrianise it after junction with Bowling green, this would then allow pedestrianisation of Abbeygate street.

I live in that area, and tend to disagree with you: they'd be fine in the daytime (especially once the Welfare office leaves St Augustine St), but night is a different story.

Also, and pedestrianisation could only be partial: there would still need to be times for truck delivery access (Shop St is open to trucks up to 10:30am, I'm not sure the drivers would have enough time to cover the surrounding areas in the same time), and emergency / health services access for the old (mainly) and other people living in the area.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

removal of surface carparking within city center at Market Steet, Newtownsmyth, Woodquay, Millstreet
Definitely doesn't need a "bypass".

What a ridiculous suggestion, thank god you will never have any influence over galway city that's all I will say.

You would ruin the city.

It's hard enough to get parking in town as it is and its a well known fact that charging for parking and lack of parking are one of the reasons city centres are suffering in comparison to out of town retail outlets. Listen to any business show or read any business paper and you will read about it.

We should be building multi-storey car parks as close to the city centre as we can so that more parking is available, not less. Also what about all the residents that park in the areas you want to remove parking from?

crusier

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

What a ridiculous suggestion, thank god you will never have any influence over galway city that's all I will say.

You would ruin the city.

It's hard enough to get parking in town as it is and its a well known fact that charging for parking and lack of parking are one of the reasons city centres are suffering in comparison to out of town retail outlets. Listen to any business show or read any business paper and you will read about it.

We should be building multi-storey car parks as close to the city centre as we can so that more parking is available, not less. Also what about all the residents that park in the areas you want to remove parking from?

He's probably self sufficient and lives of berries and only needs to go into town for the occasional bycycle tube!

Bobeagleburger

crusier wrote: »

He's probably self sufficient and lives of berries and only needs to go into town for the occasional bycycle tube!

And so what if he is.

I don't agree with his posts but everyone is entitled to their opinion without being mocked

antoobrien

dubhthach wrote: »

The reject GCOB was 21.4km long, the M17/M18 currently under construction has a length of 57km and a fixed price contract of €550million (eg. if it costs 600 million then construction firm is 50m out of pocket!)

The actual projected building costs for GCOB were specified on page 8 of the EIS in 2006 at €290m. The reason for the different costs published (depending on the ideological bent of the person involved) would have their estimation of the land acquisition prices.

Allowing for inflation (base price December 2006) the adjusted current construction costs of the GCOB route would be ~€310m.

For the sakes of valid comparison with the new proposed routes, here's what was proposed for GCOB.

Road | Length
Length of proposed N6 GCOB Mainline|21.4 km
Length of Western Distributor Link Road|1.4 km
Length of National Primary Road realignments|0.07 km
Length of National Secondary Road realignments|2.5 km
Length of Regional Road realignments|0.8 km
Length of County Road realignments|4.2 km

Bridge Types | #
Number of road bridges|10
Number of river bridges|1
Accommodation bridges|2
Culverts including existing culverts and river bridge classed as culverts|21


Road types:
Section of scheme|Road type
Junction W to Y|2 + 1 Carriageway*
Junction Y to A|Dual 2 Lane Carriageway
Junction A to M|Grade Separated Dual 2 Lane Carriageway
National Primary Road|Single Carriageway
National Secondary Road|Single Carriageway
Regional Road|Single Carriageway
County Road|Single Carriageway


Junctions:
Name of Junction|Type
Junction W R336|At grade roundabout
Junction Y Barna - Moycullen Road|At grade roundabout
Junction V Cappagh|At grade roundabout
Junction X Western Distributor Road|At grade roundabout
Junction A Gortatleva|Grade separated
Junction D Ballindooly|Grade separated
Junction M Garraun|Grade separated

* 2+1 is no longer listed in the NRA road standards, so this would have been either SC or DC.

Iwannahurl

dubhthach wrote: »

I'm not convinced by this €750million claims

...

The reject GCOB was 21.4km long, the M17/M18 currently under construction has a length of 57km and a fixed price contract of €550million (eg. if it costs 600 million then construction firm is 50m out of pocket!)

The A4 Delft-Schiedam highway, mentioned earlier, had a reported price tag of €900 million for 7 km, and has been dubbed the most expensive piece of asphalt in the Netherlands.*

Fixed price contracts are a big help of course.

"Business is allergic to congestion," according to a quote in the above report. In today's Connacht Tribune (page 6) there are competing claims that the current "bypass" proposals will either be good or bad for Galway's economy, depending on your point of view:

Acting City Chief Executive wrote:

A solution to our problems is urgently needed. We have to have another crossing of the river. This will remove a significant barrier to the economic development of the city.

Brian Walsh TD wrote:

The six route options threaten to adversely impact on economic development and harm the quality of life for a disproportionate number of people.

* And here's a list of the Top 20 traffic bottlenecks in the motorway-rich Netherlands, along with the alleged economic costs. The comments are interesting -- all the familiar allusions and illusions are there.

Iwannahurl

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

What a ridiculous suggestion, thank god you will never have any influence over galway city that's all I will say.

You would ruin the city.

It's hard enough to get parking in town as it is and its a well known fact that charging for parking and lack of parking are one of the reasons city centres are suffering in comparison to out of town retail outlets. Listen to any business show or read any business paper and you will read about it.

We should be building multi-storey car parks as close to the city centre as we can so that more parking is available, not less. Also what about all the residents that park in the areas you want to remove parking from?

>

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure which is why I've said it many times on this thread and others that any Outer bypass project should also include the following in it's costing/funding:

...

removal of surface carparking within city center at Market Steet, Newtownsmyth, Woodquay, Millstreet

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

It's hard enough to get parking in town as it is and its a well known fact that charging for parking and lack of parking are one of the reasons city centres are suffering in comparison to out of town retail outlets.

Are there too many cars in Galway City, or too few?

Too many, and you might have an argument for a "bypass". But too few?

Come now, Mr Dickens, it can hardly be both.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

>






Are there too many cars in Galway City, or too few?

Too many, and you might have an argument for a "bypass". But too few?

Come now, Mr Dickens, it can hardly be both.

I didn't see that the suggestion of parking removal was posted by someone else apologies.

Iwannahurl

No apologies required. I agree!

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The A4 Delft-Schiedam highway, mentioned earlier, had a reported price tag of €900 million for 7 km, and has been dubbed the most expensive piece of asphalt in the Netherlands.*

I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous comparison given the geological constraints in that part of the Netherlands (eg. reclaimed polder with deep bed rock), they'd have to do 7km of piles to support 2 x 3 lane carriageways.

dubhthach

antoobrien wrote: »

The actual projected building costs for GCOB were specified on page 8 of the EIS in 2006 at €290m. The reason for the different costs published (depending on the ideological bent of the person involved) would have their estimation of the land acquisition prices.

Allowing for inflation (base price December 2006) the adjusted current construction costs of the GCOB route would be ~€310m.

That and with the collapse of property prices the actual CPO costs should also have dropped compared to pricing in period 2006-2008.

Iwannahurl

dubhthach wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous comparison given the geological constraints in that part of the Netherlands (eg. reclaimed polder with deep bed rock), they'd have to do 7km of piles to support 2 x 3 lane carriageways.

It's not a comparison. Merely a reference to the cost of a specific road mentioned earlier, and the costs of facilitating cars in that neck of the woods.

Focusing on a road is missing the overall point, however, since what is being examined is a "transport project".

Any cost comparisons should be made in relation to various transport alternatives.

It's easy to estimate a price tag of several hundred million for a road, but comparing the costs and benefits of alternatives requires more work. I'm not aware that such work has even started here.

http://www.eurocities.eu/eurocities/news/TIDE-handbooks-on-innovative-transport-measures-WSPO-9PZD65

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Focusing on a road is missing the overall point, however, since what is being examined is a "transport project".

Light rail for Galway (Gluas) was estimated to cost €600m by the PT feasibility report - which would be a waste because it's using the P&R model of only serving the city center.

I can't find any costings for the BRT options, perhaps you'd like to produce some?

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

I can't find any costings for the BRT options, perhaps you'd like to produce some?

I'm waiting for Arup to do such things...

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm waiting for Arup to do such things...

The BRT costing was also supposedly stated in said report, which is often referred to but never seen.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

The BRT costing was also supposedly stated in said report, which is often referred to but never seen.

oh the mystery of it all!

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's not a comparison. Merely a reference to the cost of a specific road mentioned earlier, and the costs of facilitating cars in that neck of the woods.

Focusing on a road is missing the overall point, however, since what is being examined is a "transport project".

Any cost comparisons should be made in relation to various transport alternatives.

It's easy to estimate a price tag of several hundred million for a road, but comparing the costs and benefits of alternatives requires more work. I'm not aware that such work has even started here.

http://www.eurocities.eu/eurocities/news/TIDE-handbooks-on-innovative-transport-measures-WSPO-9PZD65

It's a red herring is what it is, again the relevant road schemes that should be compared on cost are the M6 Galway to Ballinasloe and the M18/M17 Gort to Tuam which is currently under construction.

Anyways don't forget that road not just facilitates car's but also buses and trucks

If alternatives haven't been costed than they are hardly viable alternatives, you can't decided to plan infrastructure without detailed planning/costing.

Eeden

Just FYI, I thought I heard on Morning Ireland this morning that Galway's transportation issues will be discussed on Mary Wilson's Drivetime show this evening (4:30 – 7:00 RTE Radio 1). Not sure whether this means the bypass, or Lough Atalia road lowering.

what_traffic

dubhthach wrote: »

If alternatives haven't been costed than they are hardly viable alternatives, you can't decided to plan infrastructure without detailed planning/costing.

Your just re-iterating the point IWH is making in another way! Why don't we have detailed costing's of the public transport alternative, P&R, trams etc etc?

what_traffic

dubhthach wrote: »

It's a red herring is what it is, again the relevant road schemes that should be compared on cost are the M6 Galway to Ballinasloe and the M18/M17 Gort to Tuam which is currently under construction.

That would be a terrible comparison.

dubhthach

what_traffic wrote: »

That would be a terrible comparison.

Is the geology of Clann Fergaile suddenly radically more different from that of East Galway? It's perfectly reasonable comparison, the cost per km on both those scheme should be fairly equivalent to that for Green/Blue/Pink route (leaving aside cost for tunneled sections on Blue/Pink) though there would be more houses to be knocked.

snubbleste

Eeden wrote: »

Just FYI, I thought I heard on Morning Ireland this morning that Galway's transportation issues will be discussed on Mary Wilson's Drivetime show this evening (4:30 – 7:00 RTE Radio 1). Not sure whether this means the bypass, or Lough Atalia road lowering.

It's on now.
Appears to be relatively balanced discussion..except rté seem to have a pro-motorist bias

Lapin

Report on the proposed routes on Drivetime RTÉ Radio 1 now.

Presenter Mary Wilson finding it impossible to get a straight answer from anyone being interviewed.

antoobrien

snubbleste wrote: »

It's on now.
Appears to be relatively balanced discussion..except rté seem to have a pro-motorist bias

Not stopping Connolly spout rubbish is pro-motorist bias?

snubbleste

Stop shouting Catherine down!

Lapin

I find it very hard to believe a word Peter Feeney is saying.