Outer City Bypass

Iwannahurl

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Saying "Shure build the bpyass first and sort the rest later" is just pure ignorance of human behaviour.

I think proponents of a "bypass" are well aware of the relevant human behaviour, most especially their own.

They want the "bypass" primarily to ease their cross-town commute and their trips by car to and from the city centre.

References to liberating those isolated, cut-off inhabitants of Connemara and to freeing up space for public transport, cycling and walking are purely rhetorical: just boxes to be ticked when making the sales pitch for a "bypass". In terms of switching modes and decreasing car use, the principal advocates of a "bypass" haven't the slightest intention of altering their travel behaviour once a new road/bridge is built. My prediction is that car use would increase, for obvious reasons.

Pretty much the same applies to the 'competent' authorities and to various vested interests. The "bypass" is intended to buy another 25 years of building opportunities and ad hoc transport projects.

Unrealistic

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

Its outside the city centre I mean.

But that's not really a meaningful distinction in the sense that the two routes that destroy the most buildings, because they are routed through relatively highly built areas, are the closest in and the furthest out; red and green. The red route requires more buildings to be demolished and the green route slightly fewer but the green route actually requires a higher number of homes to be demolished as there is a greater proportion of non-residential buildings on the red route.

El_Dangeroso

People are talking about human behaviour as they would like it to be rather than how it is.

As a person who mostly walks to get about the city, bad traffic makes life worse for pedestrians and cyclists. Drivers stuck in traffic are cranky drivers, more likely to take risks, disregard other road users or go faster where they can.

I'm not saying that the bypass is magical solution to traffic in the city, but to make live easier for pedestrians and cyclists you have to make life easier for car users, however the method.

TerrorFirmer

People on this thread long for a utopia where cars are a relic of the past and the population cycles, walks and utilizes public transport to get everywhere. Good for them and I commend them for it but expecting the majority of people to follow their example is utter denial in the most extreme. I have to make reference to a statement made in this thread that refers to the majority wanting the bypass as a 'hazard of democracy'. When it gets to that point you have to admit, if only privately, that you're grasping at the tail ends of straws.

They're confusing their dream for said utopia with the hard reality of the situation.

As I have said ARUP conducted a feasibility report on the potential for a public transport only solution. They found it extremely lacking. I think they found that usage may possibly double (versus an extremely low single digit current uptake), but would still remain incredibly far short of making a difference in comparison to a proposed bypass (whether it be inner or outer, can't believe people are arguing over semantics).

Not sure if that report was made public but it was investigated and carried out, I have heard all the details. For those interested, ask the City/County Council about it, I'm sure you can get more details. ARUP are an international company in good standing, when tasked with a project they carry it out professionally and according to the objective laid before them. They chose options, routes, potentials on what makes the most sense in the context of the situation they're charged with resolving. They're not the minions of Galway County Council, as much as certain people would lead you to believe, and they certainly have no interest in demolishing homes for the chuckles.

As I have said before, the Quincentenary bridge required homes to be demolished in the 80's. Are we really expecting a 1,000,000,000 piece of infrastructure to be pushed through with zero collateral damage?

Crumbs868

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What I asked was: how was the sample selected in the Connacht Tribune survey, and what was the profile of the respondents?

Tell me this, have all the surveys you have posted over the years in support of your theories been officially audited and conducted to international standards? Or do you only request these standards when you don't agree with the results?

Genuine question

Delicia

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

People are talking about human behaviour as they would like it to be rather than how it is.

I have only been popping in/out of this thread but this comment said it all for me. This is Galway 2015 & we need to free the city of all non essential traffic & then, yes, we can further plan for the needs within. There were comments here saying that we shouldn't expect Connemara to get a bypass to Dublin & comparing it to Maynooth. Really? We have so many companies & opportunities in Connemara, do we honestly expect or want them to sit in an hour of traffic before they even get on the road to Dublin?
We have roads being used as rat runs all over Galway city that were never made for the level of traffic that they get - wouldn't it be great if these were given back to the locals?
I know people living in Mayo/Galway county that would rather go shopping in Athlone or Limerick because they cannot abide the traffic situation in this city. I can't blame them because I stay out of the city myself at certain times.
We need a bypass over Galway to free the city back to the people who are using it.

Micilin Muc

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

People on this thread long for a utopia where cars are a relic of the past and the population cycles, walks and utilizes public transport to get everywhere. Good for them and I commend them for it but expecting the majority of people to follow their example is utter denial in the most extreme.[\b]

I don't think anyone is expecting the majority to follow their example, but certainly anything more than 3% using public transport will help the situation. Galway must be one of the most car-dependent cities in Ireland.

People here want the whole enchilada, they want their council, government, everyone, to haven a PHD in City Management.

We need all the things that have been suggested. All steps on the path.

Step One is a road for non Galway traffic around Galway.

Get It Built.

galwaycyclist

[Deleted User] wrote: »

People here want the whole enchilada, they want their council, government, everyone, to haven a PHD in City Management.

We need all the things that have been suggested. All steps on the path.

Step One is a road for non Galway traffic around Galway.

Get It Built.

Yes
Yes
No. There are many much more obvious "step ones" that could be implemented in a fraction of the time and that is a problem that blocks support for the "bypass". We have the equivalent of a guy looking for money to buy a BMW when his children have no shoes on their feet. When the issue of children's shoes is raised, there is no interest or acknowledgement - only more strident demands for BMW money.......

Why?

So between us here can we estimate a defensible figure for genuine non Galway traffic?

Genuine question - be an interesting problem to quantify.

(Edit: the comment about childrens shoes is simply an observation about the general tone of the debate and is not in any way a specific dig at Seaslacker)

Iwannahurl

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

People on this thread long for a utopia where cars are a relic of the past and the population cycles, walks and utilizes public transport to get everywhere. .

I can't speak for other posters here, but that's a gross misrepresentation both of my attitude and of my position on the subject of a "bypass". Being a bit of a banger at this stage, my car may well be a "relic of the past" but owning it makes me a motorist as well as a cyclist, pedestrian and bus user with an interest in the "N6 Galway City Transport Project".

I'm certainly not advocating that "the population cycles, walks and utilizes public transport to get everywhere". However, the reality is that traffic congestion and its resulting problems is being caused by an overall modal share for private cars in the order of 70%, or more in some parts of the city and county. Any serious, evidence-based and policy-driven attempt to address traffic and transportation challenges must and will address this fundamental issue.

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

expecting the majority of people to follow their example is utter denial in the most extreme. I have to make reference to a statement made in this thread that refers to the majority wanting the bypass as a 'hazard of democracy'. When it gets to that point you have to admit, if only privately, that you're grasping at the tail ends of straws.

They're confusing their dream for said utopia with the hard reality of the situation.

The hard reality is that physical space is finite and private car transport is an extremely inefficient use of that space. Motorists are therefore taking a grossly disproportonate amount of the limited road space available, to the detriment of more efficient and sustainable transport modes, and are demanding even more space in the form of a "bypass". There is nothing utopian or undemocratic about wanting a transport solution which redresses a major imbalance which everyone -- all citizens -- have suffered from over the past few decades, but which has been felt disproportionately by those who contribute nothing at all to traffic congestion and in fact alleviate it.

According to today's Galway Independent, Arup says over a thousand submissions have been received and that "a high proportion of them want a bypass [but] they just don't want it in their yard." What many motorists appear to want is that others have to accept the "hard reality" of a new road so that they can continue to avail of their "nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible" private transport as they see fit. Is that the kind of "democracy" you have in mind, and if so is it the hallmark of a modern republic facing major challenges such as economic instability and climate change? Some leadership is badly needed here, though I don't expect to get that from the vast majority of our elected representatives.

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

As I have said ARUP conducted a feasibility report on the potential for a public transport only solution. They found it extremely lacking. I think they found that usage may possibly double (versus an extremely low single digit current uptake), but would still remain incredibly far short of making a difference in comparison to a proposed bypass (whether it be inner or outer, can't believe people are arguing over semantics).

Not sure if that report was made public but it was investigated and carried out, I have heard all the details. For those interested, ask the City/County Council about it, I'm sure you can get more details. ARUP are an international company in good standing, when tasked with a project they carry it out professionally and according to the objective laid before them. They chose options, routes, potentials on what makes the most sense in the context of the situation they're charged with resolving. They're not the minions of Galway County Council, as much as certain people would lead you to believe, and they certainly have no interest in demolishing homes for the chuckles.

I have seen no such study, and there appears to be nothing detailed on the "N6 Galway City Transport Project" website. Do you have a link? All the focus to date has been on "route selection". We have not even seen the beginnings of a proper discussion on transport alternatives. No surprise there perhaps, given Arup's brief.

WallyGUFC

On the initial route which was turned down, were there many/any houses/buildings to be knocked? I find it bizarre that these routes will be going through communities but that the initial route was turned down for what? A bit of bog cotton?

Iwannahurl

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Tell me this, have all the surveys you have posted over the years in support of your theories been officially audited and conducted to international standards? Or do you only request these standards when you don't agree with the results?

Genuine question

I don't tend to quote "surveys". Certainly not surveys of the abysmal quality produced by Galway Chamber.

The best opportunity to critique any evidence I quote is at the time I post it.

Delicia wrote: »

We have roads being used as rat runs all over Galway city that were never made for the level of traffic that they get - wouldn't it be great if these were given back to the locals?
I know people living in Mayo/Galway county that would rather go shopping in Athlone or Limerick because they cannot abide the traffic situation in this city. I can't blame them because I stay out of the city myself at certain times.
We need a bypass over Galway to free the city back to the people who are using it.

People or cars? Are you saying, as many others do, that a "bypass" is needed for Galway so that motorist currently bypassing the city will no longer do so?

What you are describing above is lousy planning, imo. Those rat runs exist not by accident but by design. The "planners" and engineers should have known what would happen when they made their decisions, and if they didn't perhaps they're in the wrong job.

Deleted User wrote: »

Step One is a road for non Galway traffic around Galway.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

can we estimate a defensible figure for genuine non Galway traffic?

Is it not Arup's 5% as reported in the local press?


.

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What you are describing above is lousy planning, imo. Those rat runs exist not by accident but by design. The "planners" and engineers should have known what would happen when they made their decisions, and if they didn't perhaps they're in the wrong job.

That's a bit like saying the record industry should have planned for digital downloads in the 80's, well before the web & broadband (the two facilitators of music downloads) happened.

Iwannahurl

antoobrien wrote: »

That's a bit like saying the record industry should have planned for digital downloads in the 80's, well before the web & broadband (the two facilitators of music downloads) happened.

If Galway City and County Councils were in the music business, they'd still be managing showbands.

The future is -- has to be -- spatial planning based on something other than the private car. Populism is no basis for sound public policy.

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If Galway City and County Councils were in the music business, they'd still be managing showbands.

The future is -- has to be -- spatial planning based on something other than the private car. Populism is no basis for sound public policy.

Spatial caves!

galwaycyclist

antoobrien wrote: »

That's a bit like saying the record industry should have planned for digital downloads in the 80's, well before the web & broadband (the two facilitators of music downloads) happened.

Uh no its not a bit like that. We have had a chance to watch what other countries have done to deal with these issues over the last four decades. We had that chance before mass-motorisation ever hit us.

We have deliberately chosen to copy the worst examples in transport management rather than the best. Galway could be said to have developed a whole new level in incompetent city management.

Edit:In fact thinking about it now - you could argue that throwing a bypass at Galway's traffic problem is a bit like a record company announcing that they are going to respond to the challenge of iTunes by investing in audio cassettes.

GDSGR8

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh no its not a bit like that. We have had a chance to watch what other countries have done to deal with these issues over the last four decades. We had that chance before mass-motorisation ever hit us.

We have deliberately chosen to copy the worst examples in transport management rather than the best. Galway could be said to have developed a whole new level in incompetent city management.

Edit:In fact thinking about it now - you could argue that throwing a bypass at Galway's traffic problem is a bit like a record company announcing that they are going to respond to the challenge of iTunes by investing in audio cassettes.

Following up one crap analogy with an equally crap, though opposing analogy isn't very clever. I can't think of a single example of a leading city in the sphere of modern transportation that doesn't have an excellent road network to complement the other components you would normally expect.

Iwannahurl

GDSGR8 wrote: »

Following up one crap analogy with an equally crap, though opposing analogy isn't very clever.

It is analogous, however.

GDSGR8 wrote: »

I can't think of a single example of a leading city in the sphere of modern transportation that doesn't have an excellent road network to complement the other components you would normally expect.

It depends on how you define "leading" and "excellent" perhaps.

For example, can Houston (88% modal share for cars, 4% public transport) and Vienna (28% cars, 39% public transport) be directly compared in terms of transportation excellence? Could we conclude that more people travel by public transport in Vienna because their roads are dilapidated?

And then there's the question of what we can "normally expect" in Ireland versus, say, the Netherlands or Germany, both countries where car ownership is higher but public transport far superior.

What do we want our road infrastructure to be used for? Is it to ape the worst of the USA or emulate the best of the EU?

galwaycyclist

GDSGR8 wrote: »

Following up one crap analogy with an equally crap, though opposing analogy isn't very clever. I can't think of a single example of a leading city in the sphere of modern transportation that doesn't have an excellent road network to complement the other components you would normally expect.

Galway is not, and probably never ever will be, a "leading" "city". It is at best a historic market town with a university. Instead of trying to be like similar places, like Oxford, Cambridge, Delft, Munster, Frieburg, Ferrara etc we have apparently been trying to be like Birmingham, Brussels, Los Angeles etc.

This makes sense how?

Crumbs868

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Galway is not, and probably never ever will be, a "leading" "city". It is at best a historic market town with a university. Instead of trying to be like similar places, like Oxford, Cambridge, Delft, Munster, Frieburg, Ferrara etc we have apparently been trying to be like Birmingham, Brussels, Los Angeles etc.

This makes sense how?

I see you have accepted partial defeat as you have dropped most of the original cities you compared Galway to and found some new ones......

galwaycyclist

Crumbs868 wrote: »

I see you have accepted partial defeat as you have dropped most of the original cities you compared Galway to and found some new ones......

Ah here we go again - its that boards thing isnt it - you've run out of ideas to support your position so the only recourse is to accuse the other side of saying things they haven't said?

Why don't you argue the point? If you disagree with the idea that Galway should be the Oxford or Cambridge of Ireland then it is for you to state why with reasons.

You might also give examples of places that match your vision for Galway so we can all understand what you really want to achieve.

Iwannahurl

Interview with Peter Sweetman in today's Galway City Tribune, page 34.

"The bypass was more than the bypass to me. It was about implementing the Habitats Directive in Ireland and the bypass was the vehicle I used to do it."

"We were sold the PR hype on the outer city bypass that it was going to be the solution. The figures on usage [new data has found that just 5% of traffic actually wanted to bypass the city] show that's not the case.

The next generation will thank me. They will see the light -- at least I hope they'll see the light -- that I was right. Not even for the fact that it was against the law, but the fact that the original road was the wrong road. Even if it hadn't gone through the priority habitat, it was not the right road for Galway; it wasn't going to solve the traffic problems."

what_traffic

http://connachttribune.ie/routes-likely-to-be-merged-for-bypass-330/

"
Galway County Council and ARUP Consultants have confirmed that it is “highly unlikely” that the colour-coded routes in their entirety would be chosen as the emerging preferred route.
"

Oh what a mess!

?Cee?view

what_traffic wrote: »

Oh what a mess!

...or a demonstration that they are taking concerns into account to come up with a workable solution.

Iwannahurl

what_traffic wrote: »

http://connachttribune.ie/routes-likely-to-be-merged-for-bypass-330/

"
Galway County Council and ARUP Consultants have confirmed that it is “highly unlikely” that the colour-coded routes in their entirety would be chosen as the emerging preferred route.
"

Oh what a mess!

Rather odd wording in the Tribune article:

In theory, the preferred route could involve a combination of five of the routes. For example, it could start in the east of the city as a blue route, change to the red route at Ballybane, and then switch from red to either a yellow route or orange route near Terryland, before linking up again with the blue route, which would finish at Barna village.

Whatever starting point is chosen, the colour of the chosen route could change at Barna where there are four options linking the proposed new road to the village.

This statement is rather curious:

The County Council spokesperson confirmed, however, that the emerging preferred route, which will become the footprint for the new ring-road, will not veer outside of the colour-coded options.

"It will have to be chosen from those six published routes but it can be an amalgamation of one or more of the routes."

Was this made clear prior to the "consultation" process? If not, what exactly were people being asked to do when the Rainbow Routes were presented as the only options on the table?

snubbleste

Iwannahurl, you are querying most awkward questions!

dloob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Interview with Peter Sweetman in today's Galway City Tribune, page 34.

They should just hire him as a consultant for the bypass, it worked for the harbour company.

spurscormac

Iwannahurl wrote: »

This statement is rather curious:

The County Council spokesperson confirmed, however, that the emerging preferred
route, which will become the footprint for the new ring-road, will not veer
outside of the colour-coded options.

"It will have to be chosen from
those six published routes but it can be an amalgamation of one or more of the
routes."

Was this made clear prior to the "consultation" process? If not, what exactly were people being asked to do when the Rainbow Routes were presented as the only options on the table?

While this wasn't clearly obvious from the information presented, I did find this out from asking questions at the consultation meetings in the hotels.

So to hear this being said now is of no surprise at all to me personally.

In fact, from what I was told, the roads presented could potentially move within the corridors given based on the feedback received. It wasn't clear however, whether there was much room for movement of corridors themselves (I'm talking 50 yards or so in a given direction on uninhabited land, not wholescale new corridor options).

Iwannahurl

According to the local media, the delegation to the European Commission has been told that the old bypass has not been "completely ruled out".

The European Commission has told a delegation from Galway that the old outer city bypass route is not completely off the table.

There have been repeated calls to reconsider the route, despite part of it being turned down by the E.U previously due to the Habitats Directive.

A delegation, made up of the Galway City and County mayors, local TDs, councillors, community representatives, council officials and engineers along with MEPS held an informal meeting with Commission officials in Brussels today.

Speaking to NewsBreak from Brussels, MEP Marian Harkin said the European Commission says the old bypass route has not been completely ruled out.

http://connachttribune.ie/old-outer-city-bypass-route-not-ruled-out-at-eu-meeting/

If the report is accurate, and the Commission's assessment is valid, this will take some people by surprise.

It will be very interesting to see how this impacts on the N6 Galway City Transport Project's deliberations.

yer man!

Kinda knew this would happen, if red tape was used to stop it, it can be used to re-consider it.