Improving my 3000m time

tergat

Racing Flat wrote: »

I can probably testify to that. Off the back of about 2 years aerobic training I ran one of my best races 28.30 for 5 miles in early 2006. Continuing with that training, I entered a mile race in the summer hoping to break 5.00. My PB had been 5.08 from the previous summer. I ran 4.55 and it felt incredibly easy. About a fortnight later I ran a mile in 4.50, and around the same time a 1500 in 4.30.

Buoyed by this I decided to focus on the shorter distances, so the next year I did a load of shorter distance work, sessions like 6-8 x 400 in 68secs to try and build up my speed (hoping to get down to a 1500/1mile race pace of 70secs per lap). That summer I ran one 1500 in 4.30 and it nearly killed me but other than that I ran a 4.39, 4.42, and 4.43 each time feeling like there was nothing in my body and I was at the end of a marathon even at the start of the race. To boot, the sessions were taking so much out of me I was running incredibly slowly on recovery days and I was always drained, so my mileage dropped from 50 to 30 a week. I couldn't break 29mins for 5miles so I decided to go back to the aerobic type training and in the middle of marathon training this summer I ran a 5mile in 28.20.

Racing Flat,

The other thing to look at is what type of runner a person is, predominantley fast twitch or slow twitch. This is a key factor at times.

A wise coach once said to me 'To me, you can NOT make a plow horse into a thoroughbreed and vice versa. You can try all you want to improve a plow horse's time for the mile by having him do 2-4 furlong windsprints (breezes) but it won't do much good. He'll run a faster mile by running training reps of 5-6 furlongs at 75% speed'.

Very true in my experience!!!

Tergat

Woddle

Hi tergat without taking a sample of somebodies muscle how dwould you tell where there strenghts ly, whether it be 1500m or marathon, is there a neat little trick you can do to tell.

gerard65

You could'nt tell what precentage fast/slow a person has without an analysis on tissue sample. But could you have an educated guess? by how fast a runner can run over 200m and how long they could maintain a strong pace over 5 mile. Is this me being simple??

Woddle

No I understand what your saying Gerard65 but I just thought there might be some other method. I know Jack Daniels has a chart where your predicted times based on a race our set out. Then you run the other distance, and plot the times and some charts will be a straight line others will curve up to imply stronger at endurance other charts will slope down indicating speed. But it sounds very time consuming, I just thought there might be some other method a little more practical.

getfit

tergat wrote: »

getfit,

What you have advised above is what too many people do and pay a huge price for this. If you say to yourself, ok my aerobic system is in good nick lets crank out lots of fast anaerobic work to get faster, you will crash and burn in races.

You can erode away a good aerobic base by over doing the anaerobic stuff and you end up not being able to hold a certain pace in the race. Speed doesent get you through a 3000m, its the endurance that does so.

Simply put; strength = speed. Focusing on speed gets you injured, more times than not. Strength-endurance is the key to success in all events; at least from 400m and upward.


Think of it like this: every day you work on stamina/endurance work you are putting money in the bank. Overtime you are depositing more and more. When racing season comes around you will be looking to make a major withdrawal. If there is no deposits during the season there will be no withdrawal come summer time.

The anaerobic system can be brought to a high level in 4-8 weeks, whereas the aerobic system takes time to build. It takes much, much longer to acquire all the gains in aerobic capacity than it does in anaerobic capacity.

Tergat

I agree 100% that the training example I gave would not reap rewards in the medium to long term and therefore should not be employed for 1500+ running. I was a 400m/800m/1500 runner. I could kick out a solid 400m for a relay team in the indoors/summer- sub 54 secs, but in the winter I could run a solid cross country race for the club also.. My main focus was always a fast 800m.

I still maintain the point I was making is valid, the OP would benefit from introducing 1 session per week that focuses his body on anaerobic speed endurance work. I see no benefit in him doing 10*200's or 6*400's. That's just too much for a guy looking to improve 1500m time. I'm suggesting the single session a week in a phase in the year when a good 3k is the aim. The session like 8*600's and 10*300s with short recoveries... You are going beyond that Vo2max session and getting into proper middle distance racing speed. I would still advise such an athelete to retain his long run, An threshold session and if possble Vo2max sessions (along with rec runs) in a week.... I think that minor tweak would help the body adapt to the anaerobic side of things without the loss of aerobic fitness. I see with racing flats example that his mileage went from 50m per week to 30m per week... Yeah, that would mess the whole thing up.... My training week that was to anaerobic (example listed in my previous post) would still have clocked over 40m pw, and the base stuff in the week/months before that would have drifted over 50m.. The only time I went under 30m pw was in the peak racing season when i might have run 2 800 races on a weekend and finished it off with a leg of a 400m relay a couple of hours after the 2nd 800 and knew I had another big race the next weekend.

Tergat - Spot on with the plogh horse and thoroughbred perspective... After a fitness assesment I had a while ago they guy doing my numbers was going through things with me and I explained how I was too anaerobic and speed orientated in the past as I was focused on fast 800's and I was now logging the miles and leaving my hill sprints and hard reps in the past. I also explained that I found the miles tough and draining at times... From the odd GAA training sessions I will still doing I could see that I still felt okay a day after hard sprints etc., but the miles drained me... He just said, once a speed freeak always a speed freak - your body is just made that way!

I will admit to one thing - to err on the side of miles as tergat put it is literally building up a little extra savings in the bank.... To err to much on the side of speed and high intensity can be a banking crisis;).

tergat

Woddle wrote: »

Hi tergat without taking a sample of somebodies muscle how dwould you tell where there strenghts ly, whether it be 1500m or marathon, is there a neat little trick you can do to tell.

Woddle,

Give me some info on yourself including training years, experience and PB's for 400, 800, 1500, 3000, 5000, 10000 and longer if you have ventured into this teritory. I will tell you then.

Also if you don't know what type you are, do a full-blown 200m, after a very through 20 minute warm up (including several moderate 100m strides). Then, walk around for 3 minutes and run the 200m the opposite direction on the track. Record those times and tell me how you did. Tell me you age, gender, and experience in the sport.

Tergat

cfitz

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been thinking about it and will think about it some more and then have a talk with my coach. Thanks again.

cfitz

ss43 wrote: »

This is what I'd suggest:

Structure:

Mon: Aerobic run 40-60 mins, progressing to a good pace. Strides/Hill sprints. Core work
Tue: Vo2 max session
Wed: am: recovery run pm: aerobic run like Monday. Strides. Core.
Thurs: am: Aerobic run pm: Circuits. Squats (progress to squat jumps), Lunges (progress to with weights, then to split lunges where you jump from one to the other), Press-up etc. Alternate each exercise with a sprint, stride or hill sprint.
Fri: rest/recovery run
Sat: am: AnT run. Pm: recovery run. Core
Sun: Long Run 70-90

When I'm starting back it might be a while before I'm able to add in the doubles. Which runs should I omit until I'm ready to do doubles?

ss43

cfitz wrote: »

When I'm starting back it might be a while before I'm able to add in the doubles. Which runs should I omit until I'm ready to do doubles?

For the first few weeks, just concentrate on getting back into the rhythm of training. When you feel ready, start adding in the Tuesday session and double days. I left the Thursday double day as the second one isn't a running session.

Structure:

Mon: Aerobic run 40-60 mins, progressing to a good pace. Strides/Hill sprints. Core work
Tue: Easy (faster than recovery pace) run 40-60 mins, strides
Wed: aerobic run like Monday. Strides. Core.
Thurs: am: Aerobic run pm: Circuits. Squats (progress to squat jumps), Lunges (progress to with weights, then to split lunges where you jump from one to the other), Press-up etc. Alternate each exercise with a sprint, stride or hill sprint. (Leave out some of the sprints or exercises that might cause trouble until you're comfortable trying them)
Fri: rest
Sat: am: AnT run. Pm: recovery run. Core Edit: Forgot to remove the recovery run - should read "AnT Run. Core"
Sun: Long Run 70-90

cfitz

ss43 wrote: »

Sat: am: AnT run. Pm: recovery run. Core

Voici un 'double'!

ss43

cfitz wrote: »

Voici un 'double'!

pardon-moi
Erm... Ne le fais pas(?)

Don't do the recovery run and break the threshold into reps. Start with 2x10mins, then 3x10 mins, then maybe 2 x 15 or just 1x 20. do the core after it if you feel up to it.

runjb

Just reading through all the threads. I'm 21 year old athlete who is just starting back training after about a 3/4 year lay off, during which I managed to keep myself just about ticking over fitness wise.

I've started back training two weeks ago and I am aiming for the track season next year. Distance 800m/1500m. Looking to go sub 2 minutes for 800m, previous best 2.04 from about 4/5 years ago. At the moment I don't have a set training plan but will draw up one over the next week.
My current training is along the lines:
Tempo Runs (20 - 35mins - Fast enough pace)
Recovery Runs (40mins)
Fartleg Session (20mins)
Time trial once every 3 weeks (Approx 4 mins)
Good mix of fields, forest track and road.

Going from the previous threads I think I need to increase the length of my runs and maybe reduce my tempo and input. I know I need to build my aerobic level of fitness over the next 2/3 months so will plan to increase the distance of my runs gradually over the next few weeks.

I also include the following circuits into my schedule: Press ups, sit ups, skipping, burpees.
I think I need some specific excercises and activities designed to develop my core over the next few months. Anyone have any ideas?

If anyone has any more adive on training I'd be glad to hear them.

Racing Flat

Training with others around the 2 minute mark would be ideal. Do you have a group to train with?

runjb

At the moment I am training on my own but in another two months I'll train once or twice a week with a good group of athletes with good times. But right now I want to get myself into good shape,build a good foundation for the track season.

Woddle

tergat wrote: »

Woddle,

Give me some info on yourself including training years, experience and PB's for 400, 800, 1500, 3000, 5000, 10000 and longer if you have ventured into this teritory. I will tell you then.

Also if you don't know what type you are, do a full-blown 200m, after a very through 20 minute warm up (including several moderate 100m strides). Then, walk around for 3 minutes and run the 200m the opposite direction on the track. Record those times and tell me how you did. Tell me you age, gender, and experience in the sport.

Tergat

Hi Tergat
I'm back running 15 months now. Without any training for the shorter stuff I've ran
800m-2:31
1500m-5:15
5k-19:25
5m-33:07
marathon- 3:37

I did the 200s after a set of 8x400 and I ran 35 seconds and 33 seconds for 200, I then finished it with a 14.7 100m
I'm 30 and male and I've always kind of raced(fun runs) up to the year 2002, never trained properly, more of a footballer back then, I'm also about 2 stone over my weight of 2002 when I was last running but all my times are actually faster now than back then, probably a combination of more info and listening to Racing flat.
Cheers